Mini #1022- PokeUPick(Game Over)

[bv310]

Mostly his withholding information from the town, while simultaneously allowing himself an excuse to fall back on when a scan calls him scum. It's a move I'd expect ballsy scum to try, especially in a U-Pick.

[gandalf5166]

Mostly his withholding information from the town, while simultaneously allowing himself an excuse to fall back on when a scan calls him scum. It's a move I'd expect ballsy scum to try, especially in a U-Pick.

Wait, is this referring to Prox? And I will have that post up TODAY. Gotta go read my other games first though. And where the hell is Jarti? He hasn't posted in like, a century.

[Robocopter87]

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Vote Count

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Vezokpiraka [0]
jimfinn [0]
NicolBolas [0]
Espeonage [2] gandalf5166, drmyshottyizsik
gandalf5166 [3] Espeonage, nicolbolas, Jarti

drmyshottyizsik [6] Xite91, jimfinn, bv310, gandalf5166, vezokpiraka, switz

Prox [0]
bv310 [1] Prox
Jarti [0]
Xite91 [0]
Switz [0]
mikeburnfire [0]

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Not Voting

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Mikeburnfire

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Amount to Lynch

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With 12 Alive it is 7 to Lynch.

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Deadline

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Midnight of September 10^th EST

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[mikeburnfire]

MBF's "heavy FOS" on Vezo is just wrong. First of all, what Vezo said he did to his post is not that improbable; I believe it can be done on accident very easily when you're writing in Microsoft Word, and it could have easily been a Freudian slip of sorts.

How would Microsoft Word make that kind of error? I believe it is the latter: that it was indeed a Freudian slip, and that Vezo lied about it.

And, as I say above, I disagree with your logic on leaving Shotty alive. He is a one-shot lightning rod, as he clearly states, so we'd only get one night of "neutering," not to mention the fact that he could be a scum lightning rod, at which point he would activate overnight, get "confirmed," and then proceed to linger on until scum destroys us.

My mistake. Didn't notice the one-shot aspect. Still, this is a provable role, and one that can essentially SKIP A NIGHT at the cost of his life. I think people who are piling on to lynch him are making a mistake, if only for logic's sake.

Although, to be honest, I can't stand Espeon, shotty, or Vezok's playstyle. I'm tempted to hammer solely because I think the average IQ of the whole town would go up. ;3

[gandalf5166]

MBF, that's what we're worried about. It would skip a night. Now, we have a vig and probably an investigative role too. Whereas scum has a kill and maybe a couple of minor power roles. What we're debating is whether skipping a night is pro-town, considering that scum would get an NK anyways. My theory is that IF DMSIS is telling the truth about his ability(which I don't think he is, for paradox reasons) then he's probably bullet proof scum.

[Jarti]

And where the hell is Jarti? He hasn't posted in like, a century.

I dunno, timestamp on my last ISO says the 23rd and today's the 24th, so I'm not due for another post till like the 27th now.

So anyway; before I voted gandalf it was 4-4 between him and that dmsis dude and I put my vote on gandalf putting him at L-2; since then that wagon dissolved and dmsis wagon is now L-1 with someone expressing interest in hammering. So I'd say gandalf is the better lynch today due to the swing that occurred, and because he only now decides to complain about my inactivity after my vote is on him lol.

[gandalf5166]

Was it really yesterday? Seems like it was a long time ago. :/ But what IS your opinion on the DMSIS wagon?

[mikeburnfire]

First of all, we have a

claimed

vig. Second of all, if DMSIS is telling the truth, then by lynching him we use up our lynch and cannot force the mafia's kill on somebody else. Frankly, I believe there's too much power role garbage going on anyway. Time to neuter everyone and play the game like it's meant to be played.

[NicolBolas]

Mod- Gandalf is shown voting both espeonage and shotty in the VC

After considering, I still want Gandalf lynched. Jarti's post was true, really.

[gandalf5166]

MBF, if you don't like power role/flavor-centric games, then don't join a uPick. Hell, the game starts by everyone deciding what their flavor will be, and indirectly, what their role will be.

[vezokpiraka]

I forgot about our vig.
Ahhh. I shouldn't have lurked that much.
Xite please don't kill. If you want I will claim just so oyu don't kill me.

[gandalf5166]

I forgot about our vig.
Ahhh. I shouldn't have lurked that much.
Xite please don't kill. If you want I will claim just so oyu don't kill me.

Wow. Survivor much?

[NicolBolas]

I'll go on vezok's side and say that he shouldnt be killed. (if my read on him is correct).

I dont think that vezok is a surivior, actually.

[Xite91]

I forgot about our vig.
Ahhh. I shouldn't have lurked that much.
Xite please don't kill. If you want I will claim just so oyu don't kill me.

I have to make my list, yes you are on there, but probably not top priority. Or did you mean please don't kill at all?
Speaking of which - Hey, if you guys want a Gandalf lynch that bad, I can hit shotty (because he's just playing so.... off)

Wow, at this point we may as well get a mass claim going

[mikeburnfire]

We already have a mass claim going. On Day 1. Might as well just paint bullseyes on our foreheads.

[NicolBolas]

I think a mass claim on Day one is a stupid idea.

I do want a gandalf lynch.

[Xite91]

We already have a mass claim going. On Day 1. Might as well just paint bullseyes on our foreheads.

Lulz, I know, that was the point. Shotty, I can see why he claimed, but Gandalf... Iunno.
And me, I gave my reason

[mikeburnfire]

For the record, I still think Gandalf is scummy. (I realize that if he flips scum, I'm going to look suspicious because he called me 100% town, and I unvoted him when he was close to lynch).

vote: piraka

because even if there's a better chance of Gandalf being scum, I want these useless players gone. I might hammer drmy later, we'll see. I think there's too much focus on his role right now.

[Xite91]

For the record, I still think Gandalf is scummy. (I realize that if he flips scum, I'm going to look suspicious because he called me 100% town, and I unvoted him when he was close to lynch).

vote: piraka

because even if there's a better chance of Gandalf being scum, I want these useless players gone. I might hammer drmy later, we'll see. I think there's too much focus on his role right now.

Wait.... seriously?
You do realize how high you just shot up on my scumdar right?

[mikeburnfire]

I don't even care. We've got players who refuse to participate, and it's really pissing me off.

[gandalf5166]

Okay, Nicol's reasoning makes sense. So here's my case.

The short version: Gandalf's overzealous play makes him likely to be scum because it involves him both keeping town distracted and pushing cases with little merit so fast we don't notice the lack of evidence.

Long version: Throughout this game, Gandalf's been playing very aggressively. He's one of the more frequent posters, but despite this, there's very little content in his posts. In fact, I think it's safe to say there's no scumhunting in any of his play so far.

I'm assuming that you're saying this because I haven't posted any huge wall o text posts like this one. I have found that real scum are more likely to be found by small mistakes in addition to gut than by consistently anti-town play. With a few exceptions, of course. I'm not discrediting your playstyle, just saying that it usually doesn't work for me.

But here's what he has done.

Forced Quick Nameclaiming

I think we've all determined by this point that a mass nameclaim is pretty much the way to go. But that wasn't the case on Page 2, where our first claim is made. And why was that claim made?

Not much point in breadcrumbing if we're about to nameclaim. I support the idea of nameclaiming, although I don't think that it would be that hard for mafia to fake-claim. While it might not help too much, it certainly couldn't hurt.

I say we go for it, I have no problem being the first, and again I ask, do people want me to full claim, considering it will help town?

If you think it will help, go ahead. If you're really important, I'm sure we have a doc.

Alright

Well, I am the Water Type
Each night I get to choose one player to do water-type damage to (Vig)
Which is why I wanted to claim, I want it to be town directed, and I don't think the doc should worry about me, the kill still goes through if I'm NK'd, and I'm sure there's better PR's to protect.

In the span of 15 minutes, Gandalf convinces Xite to claim by encouraging him to commit to his promise to be the first and his promise that there is a Doc waiting to protect him. Aside from the fact that this reasoning is opposite (which someone else pointed out, I don't remember who), this is just anti-town. The pro-town move to make would be to make sure Xite doesn't claim until more than, say, half the people in the game have had a chance to weigh in. Xite's claim broke down the floodgates, encouraging everyone else to join the massclaim.

Nobody was forced to claim. They just used their brains and realized that there wasn't any reason not to. And to be honest, I didn't realize she was going to claim vig. I figured she was going to claim miller or something. And think about it. If she did claim something important, which she did, then mafia would be stupid to kill her. Because IF there was a doctor, they would have wasted their nightkill. So whether or not there is a doc, she's pretty much safe.

Now, if Gandalf is scum, as I believe him to be, this course of action serves multiple purposes. It forces the town to focus on claims and keeps them from doing any initial scumhunting based on gameplay; instead we're theorizing based on claims. It also, in this particular case, convinced someone who appears to be a power role to claim. Regardless of Xite's alignment, this is bad for us; if he's really the Vig, he's now exposed and likely to get picked off, if he's scum pretending to be Vig, he's been outed in an attempt to gain our trust. And it accelerates the game's speed before everyone can weigh in. Scum have everything to gain from us moving faster than we should and not thinking about our actions.

The point of a mass name claim at start was to make scum to stick to their flavor claims, potentially limiting their full-claims later on. And accelerating the game speed at the beginning is definitely good. RVS is a bunch of bullshit.

And lest you think this is an isolated incident, look here:

I did not exactly "list bandwagon". The post by gandalf perfectly addressed my concerns, while still giving the town a way to input some opinions.

And I want to see more input from others before I claim. That's why I posted that "where is everyone else?" post. Your reasoning is bad, but I don't see any scummy things about it.

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Preview Edit 2: NB claim now. As town, you should have no reason to wait to claim. Waiting just opens a whole bucket of WIFOM.

Again, he sees someone hesitating to claim and pushes them over the edge. The only difference is this time he uses the stick instead of the carrot; whereas before claiming would warrant the protection of a Doc, now not claiming has the stigma of being labeled non-town. And his actions afterwards are even more interesting. Which leads me to my next point...

When I made this post, my brain hurt from another game, and I was kind of pissed off, so when I saw someone not claiming, yeah, I got angry, as like I have said, I don't think that withholding your name-claim is a good idea.And I didn't get any grapefruit juice, so I'm not scum.

Parrotting Others' Ideas

Through the game, Gandalf hasn't been actually coming up with any unique theories or arguments against anyone, at least not any with evidence. What he'd rather do instead is parrot back the beliefs of others to gain support. Like in this lovely exchange right after Nicol does claim.

So why did you wait to claim?

Wow, scum caught already? Sneasel isn't from Gold and Silver, is he? And yeah, why the hell did you wait to claim?

Ignoring the fact that this statement is made shortly after Gandalf was encouraging Nicol to claim without any such questions about why he was waiting so long to do so, this is a clear instance where Gandalf takes up the idea of another and runs with it so we don't see that he doesn't have any ideas of his own. Here's another example, early in his crusade against Espy.

At the time, it seemed like he MIGHT have had reasons not to name claim, but after he did, I didn't get it. And since when is not being the first one to respond to everything a scum tell?

Wait, is Espeo joking? Because he hasn't posted any reasoning behind his vote at all.

Cases should be posted.

This. Voting without posting your reasoning is 100% sure to be unhelpful to town.

Why is it that the first time he points out that Espy hasn't posted a case, it's a confusing potential joke, and the second time, it's antitown? Answer: Because the second time it's Prox that says it, (possibly) inadvertently laying the groundwork for Gandalf to rail against Espeonage. Which brings me to my last point...

All I can do is hold my head in my palms and say stupid. I didn't LITERALLY think it was a joke. And I still think that voting without reasons is anti-town. The reason you vote is because you want someone to be lynched, and if you don't supply reasoning, no one is going to vote with you.

Over-Relentless Idea-Pushing

Now, Gandalf hasn't been quite as guilty of these former offenses lately, because he's been busy trying to make everyone else (especially Espeonage, MBF, and Vezo) look scummy instead, and this is how: by pushing their apparent scumminess down our throats until we believe it. I'm not going to post quotes here because most of the posts I would quote are so short they'd waste space, but their message is always the same. If it's about Espy, he's saying that he lacks a case and is scummy. If it's about MBF, he starts talking about how his summary "misreps" everyone. If it's about Vezo, Vezo's making up the scumGandalf meta he's using. You get the drift.

I have specifically said that I believe 100%that both MBF and VP are town. So shut up. And Espeo is still scummy. The case he made is entirely makeshift. I seriously doubt that that was what he had when he voted me. If it was, he would have had plenty of time to refine it and make it less..... contentless?

The point is, if he pushes these ideas long enough, we're going to start believing them. But there's no hard evidence to back any of these assertions up. Espeonage could be making up the case, but we have no way of knowing. MBF could be misrepping, but no one has come forward with examples. Etc. But Gandalf doesn't need any evidence anyways as long as he can convince us to go after people like Espy without thinking about it.

Which brings me back to the short version of the argument at the top of the post.

[gandalf5166]

So yeah. Switz's case is a whole batch of BS. But we can lynch him AFTER his scumbuddies, Shotty and Espeo. So it's all good. D3 win anyone?

[NicolBolas]

Hmm.

[vezokpiraka]

We have a vig.
Shotty dies anyway.
Why did the mod change this to a day start?

[Switz]

Gandalf, you damn me with faint praise; aka stop helping me, scum.

Massclaim is bad, Shotty or Gandalf lynch is good. And I'm sorry, but Xite is playing way too erratically for me to implicitly trust that he's actually a Vig and not scum or an SK.

And trying to reason out the pros and cons of letting Shotty live for days and days is exactly what scumShotty would want us to do. If Xite is a pro-town Vig, he's got lots of options and we're not directing him anyways, so why not go for the most protown move we have?