/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)


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Post Post #725 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:26 am

Post by Patrick »

Both of those two have been prodded.
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Post Post #726 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:03 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

Shit. Yeah, deadline at 1:30...

Not sure I can be home by then. I'll try though.
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Post Post #727 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:06 am

Post by Kmd4390 »

vote hoopla
for the sake of lynching someone.
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Post Post #728 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:15 am

Post by SpyreX »

The vanishing act doesn't do me hot.

Unvote, Vote: Hoopla


I WANT VV DEAD SOON HOWEVER FOR A MURDERIN PARTY
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Post Post #729 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:19 am

Post by Hoopla »

I am at L-1 (finally).

Claim:
Vanilla Townie

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hoopla




To some this might seem like a strange move, or possibly even an anti-town/suboptimal move. Before you jump to such hasty conclusions, I will explain my behaviour as best I can, and you can make that decision with the knowledge of what I was trying to do.

Initially, I entered this game full of zest, eager to play with some of mafia's best minds - I haven't played with a bunch of you, but I was thrilled to see so many on my 'like' list pop up. I think my interest in the game was obvious to begin with, as I devoted much of my time to crafting plans and formulating what the best strategy for the town would be. This is usually my niche - where I thrive most. A couple of you who I've played with often will probably be able to vouch for that sentiment. Anyway, the game slowly chugged along, and whilst still fun, was starting to become a little bit more of a chore to post and keep up with the latest ideas. I also will point out, I took on another couple of games at this point (by way of invitation), which was a pretty bad idea in hindsight. I've always been at my best when I'm in one (or at most) two games. Coupling this with additional site commitments - namely that of modding a fast-paced game, I quickly slipped behind the curve activity-wise.

At this point, we were nearing towards the end of the nomination phase, where I was still largely in catch-up mode, and noticed DGB's fake Hider claim. It was strange to me - and I still maintain it felt obvious and likely that she was faking, even though I had little investment in the game. For some reason, I just lurked and watched through that passage until the moment she unclaimed. I chimed in with my comments by way of impulse, not thinking how it incriminated me by proving I was lurking through that passage, and I did not know what to do. It felt like a pretty solid point on me, for one moment of recklessness, which could have been avoided by being active within the game.

I defended myself poorly throughout that passage of play and collected a few votes for cryptic answers. I was still behind, and had lost much interest in the game, but I thought it would be even more frowned upon if I tried to wriggle out of that line of attack by claiming I had no idea what was happening. I was far too invested in the argument and game again, despite missing a decent chunk. I thought I'd try to play the wifom game, and wriggle out of it by being lazy and irrational - for some reason, I maintained the belief that this was my meta, not as town, but definitely not as scum. Though, it's come to my attention, that people think I try harder as town - when I know I've played games with a couple of you (Elli, DGB, tajo are a few), where I was more well-known for an active, solid scumgame, rather than a good towngame. So, this was a strange backfiring of sorts which exacerbated my scenario.

It was at this stage (with about 5-6 votes to my name) that I needed to cut my losses. I'm sure I had the capability to get back in the game, and maybe even stem the tide against my wagon, but I thought of another idea. I thought I'd try and take today's lynch in the hope the janitor uses it's action on me. If it does, my self-hammer and claim of vanilla should be enough justification to prove I was town, as this certainly isn't a result scum could desire. Before you come spitting back at me 'WIFOM WIFOM' - think it through. What do I actually gain from being scum in this situation, deliberately taking the lynch? Deliberately claiming vanilla, and self-hammering myself? Surely, I could quite easily faekclaim a powerrole to remove this wagon and maybe last a day or two. Is getting lynched D1 to hide the amount of scum in the game worth it? I hope nobody does this is a scum gambit if the janitor does use it's action on me, because it is just not worth it as scum.

For those wondering, I left a breadcrumb at 6 votes to signal my intention;
Hoopla wrote:
I'm
not not sure KMD is scum -
if that makes sense
.
Planning
out my attack on him is more difficult than I envisaged, but I'll make an attempt now.
On
the face of it, KMD's one-liners and backseat commentary are vaguely reminiscint of some of his previous scum games, although his town game isn't rich with active powerhunting.
Drawing
on this, I'd like to defend this wagon under '
The Castle
' justification of it being the '
vibe
' - it has a real '
vibe
' about it. More to the point, I'm worried my inability to successfully weed out specific pieces of 'evidence' is generating votes on me.
Votes
that seem very safe - very safe indeed.
To
some, that line will be extra reason to vote for me.

Neutralize
me on Day 1 might be necessary, or it might not, but I'm so deep in this hole.
The
difficult thing about this hole is even if I climb out there are still plenty of ways for me to be pushed back in.
Janitor
-based reasons are the obvious ones, but I don't think my crimes have been too significant to lynch on.
I'll
like it if someone can give me an umbrella to stop the dirt trickling down on my face, because I've just showered.
Do
we even need to do this?
This
is getting silly now, but I'm getting distracted and finding it hard to focus.
By
the way, I don't want to make excuses but English isn't my first language, I can't find my glasses and I'm pregnant, so it's difficult to get this done.
Self
discipline has never been my strong point, I guess, but I can assure you I am trying my best to figure out this game.
Hammering
home my weaknesses and so-called scummy behaviour isn't necessary because I can do it myself.
If the janitor does use it's action today, I'll be very happy and see my play as not a total failure. The thing is though, in 3:9 games, towns only have a 20% chance of lynching scum on D1, which is a touch lower than random. This game has a lower ratio of scum to town, which makes me feel like it was a very high chance of lynching a townie anyway. My death surely isn't such a big loss - particularly as I don't out our powerroles yet either. I figure I can make it up even more if I give you some analysis of my bandwagon, and opinions on their votes so far. It is the least I can do after ignoring many requests to do so earlier in the game. Here I go;

Early proponents of my bandwagon are mith and Papa Zito, though their suspicion goes back to the nomination phase. PZ is a bit more forward with his, while I suspect mith only has me lingering in the corner of his eye. After giving some poor answers to why I thought DGB was fakeclaiming, mith and PZ are probably justified in attacking me. I feel their votes are genuine - mith in particular with how aggressively he has been pushing me all game. That sort of onslaught is difficult to maintain honestly throughout the day, as me flipping town would squarely bring him into the limelight. Though, his experience certainly makes the possibility of his attacks being fabricated, my overwhelming instinct is that he genuinely believes I am scum.

Amished's early vote on me largely misrepresented how I knew DGB was fakeclaiming - I won't pedal the semantics here, but I thought his entry onto my early wagon was the weakest of all the votes, and wouldn't be a bad place to start looking tomorrow. It's at this point KMD starts developing the lead, quite significantly, which such supporters like Elli, Herodotus and VasudeVa who don't look anywhere near town enough for me to justify KMD's early wagon was 'good'. I put my vote on it anyway, and things start to swing towards me. Ekim jumps on without a reason, but it was in a close enough timeframe to my vote-hop, to make it understood this was in fact the reason. I have no qualms with Ekim's vote, particularly as he tries to understand my motives later in the game with meta analysis. He genuinely looks like he is trying to figure out my alignment, and I'll be surprised if he is scum. VasudeVa on the other hand, is just jumping from ship to ship and though this would normally be reason to suspect him, I feel like this is more of a town tell for him after seeing him recently in a couple of games. I wouldn't say he's much more conservative as scum, but such liberal vote-hopping strongly signifies reckless townie to me.

Elmo is the sixth vote on my wagon, and it's at this point I breadcrumb my intention to take the lynch and collect votes. Elmo's justification is flimsy and seemingly gut based - 'sounds too much like a politician', is an unusual reason to join a wagon. I've only seen small passages of Elmo's play, but I don't think he is conventional (I am basing this largely off the game I modded, with him in it as a townie). He sort of had a whimsical vibe about him, I actually kind of like it, it's a special aura. But I don't know if this matches up as much as I've previously seen. This is a strange analysis of Elmo's meta, and likely not useful to anyone, but I don't think his vote is too much out of character. The fact he tries to work me out later in the game is a good sign for him.

Plum's vote on me comes next and feels weak, but she knows it's weak, so she overjustifies and appears forceful in my eyes. Compared to my other voters, she is rather suspicious in my eyes. As if she is making sure she lists enough of my tells to preemptively thwart any challengers to her votes. To be honest, what she did describe of my play didn't describe any new insight, and it looks like she isn't trying to discover my alignment at all - rather, she is ensuring she gets on safely without suspicion. She doesn't ask me questions or reference her previous experiences with me. She is suspicious.

I'm slightly suspicious of SpyreX's vote too. He uses a weak justifcation like 'I'm avoiding questions', well after this had been an established fact. This was not a new thing I was doing - I'd been called on this before much earlier in the game. It looks to me as if SpyreX is searching for something to use to jump on my wagon at that particular time. Especially worrying when you consider he acknowledges he has other higher suspects, which seems to serve an out, as if he is slightly less responsible for a townie death, because it wasn't his first choice. Honestly, I think it was a little early for compromises, but I know Spy is like me, in the sense he likes to get things done nice and quick. Still, slightly suspicious.

It's at this point I have 8 votes and worth noting a couple of the ones avoiding my wagon. Herodotus, zoraster, Zorblag, DGB. These are the names that stand out, because they were relatively active around that period, and I am most suspicious of Hero and DGB. DGB in particular, because she frequently comments earlier in the day about my wagon slowing down is a sign of it being on a townie - then conviently flips later in the day to me being 'scum giving up'. You can't have it both ways. I hate to use this justification, but if it were anyone else, this would be scummy as hell - DGB is prone to moments of rapid changes of heart, but this one just feels unnatural and opportunistic (there, how about that for an opinion on DGB?). Hero avoiding me seems odd, because he has picked up a couple of my posts and commented on them as being flawed or scummy in some sense. It just looks like he is trying to avoid the major wagons, as a way to keep blood off his hands. I don't normally indulge my gut feelings, but he is scummy as hell. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the zor's were scum, but I certainly can't pinpoint anything specific in that direction - they are worth mentioning because of their activity and avoidance of my wagon, though.

My wagon falls away to 5 votes, and it's Elmo, Rhinox, DGB who are the ones to push me back into the lead for game progression as we compromise and try to get closer to the deadline. If zoraster is town, then these players deserve town credit for being the compromisers. It's easy as scum to sit back and let the townies put themselves in the hot back-end positions of wagons that always get scrutinized, when the competing wagons are town. It's when they've got something to lose (say zoraster being scum), do they need to worry about pushing a townie ahead - in which case, though late pushers of my bandwagon are quite suspicious. It feels like the competition is town though - the way I've been pushed and then lost votes hasn't been ruthless in any way that my play deserved. This makes me feel like scum don't have anyone in the firing line they need to indirectly protect by pushing me. Yeah, zoraster and probably even VasudeVa are town.

Final reads:

Town:

mith
ekiM
Elmo
ooba
Papa Zito
VasudeVa
zoraster

Scum:

Plumegranate
Amished
DGB
Herodotus
Ellibereth
SpyreX

Somewhere in the middle:

KMD
My Milked Eek
Tajo
Rhinox
Seraphim
Zorblag


I'll be here online until the mod closes the thread, so anyone with questions, I'll do my best to answer quickly. I'm hopeful this isn't seen as a bad play, and I've done my best to give you as much information as I can from my lynch regardless of what happens with the janitor. Good luck everyone and good luck town - I'd like to say it's been fun, but it's been mostly stressful.
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Post Post #730 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:23 am

Post by Seraphim »

hmmm. Well, that's interesting. If you wanted to draw the janitor, it's a little too late for that now as the janitor has the power to change whether or not he's using it right up to the lynch. I suppose we'll see what happens though.
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Post Post #731 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:24 am

Post by Hoopla »

Seraphim wrote:hmmm. Well, that's interesting. If you wanted to draw the janitor, it's a little too late for that now as the janitor has the power to change whether or not he's using it right up to the lynch. I suppose we'll see what happens though.
The janitors decision or non-decision, as it were, has been locked in with my self-hammer. So, lets just hope they chose to use it.
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Post Post #732 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:26 am

Post by SpyreX »

Hoopla GOOD LORD WHY DIDNT YOU DO THAT EARLIER.

God in heaven. We could have got ALL of that out of this without this lynch going through.

If this is janned this is a town lynch. Period.
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Post Post #733 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:28 am

Post by Seraphim »

I suppose. We'll see when we'll see.
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Post Post #734 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:28 am

Post by Plumegranate »

SpyreX wrote:
Why are Spy and Hero having a long, drawn-out conversation about meta which has nothing to do with anything?
Because he went right off the crazy train and I was trying to figure out where he was coming from BUT ALAS VV decided to just see if he could twirl a handlebar mustache and if people would go "well, the guy with the bloody knife can't be scum too obvious".
This doesn't save me having to comb through things for a side conversation in a reread. But the way things are that can definitely wait soooooo.
Elmo wrote:Plum: I actually didn't know what the slip was supposed to be, I just felt like wagoning someone who seemed background-y :) I will say that I was really surprised to see it got votes like that, it was probably useful for that alone.
This makes me feel better about you than some of the other Zoro-wagoners. Getting v. good townvibes from this post, I gotta say.

Hero, as much as I am not grooving with Kmd this game (:() that wagon wouldn't have gotten my support over Hoopla or even VV today.

Zito: When I say Zor I mean Zoro. Zorblag is Troll to me :). His tunneling . . . well, I wasn't too worried about it. I could see why he found you scummy and agreed with him, somewhat. It looks more worrying than I think could really be the case - ignoring the early pushing with the Hoopla wagon, for the most part, looks bad, but it's hard to say how he'd have continued if it weren't for the scummeet V/LA he was on. Is it possible Troll did the Hider-claim tango as scum? Possible, but as I explained I think overall the idea was more Troll-town (though that's based on the decent reward/low risk take I have on the claim itself, which you strongly disagree with). THAT said I agree with most all of your stances thus far Day 1 otherwise. Hmmmm. Maybe I'm thinking too hard and this is really just a metastatized theory disagreement between the two of us.
DrippingGoofball wrote:In other news, Herodotus has now claimed scum twice. I do not believe that townies make jokes about being scum, unless they're elvis_knits. It's something you do as scum to release the stress of being caught. And the stress of being caught bus'ing.

I suppose I could vote KMD; but I'm more confident in the bus driver being scum, than the guy being squished into the asphalt.

unvote, vote: Herodotus
I think I missed these two instances. Probably my fault. I'll look for 'em later or something . . . I'd need context to judge, but DGB's theory here is legitimate.
populartajo wrote:I also dislike Mrs. Plum for voting ooba instead of other people.
:?: Miss Plum, who has not yet experienced the joys of matrimony, hasn't been voting ooba for . . . over a week. Que? You seem to have made multiple minor errors in that post by accident.

Bonus scumpoints to Ekim for joining the Zoro wagon for weak evidence and his reiteration of the case, this time with quotes, afterwards when he unvotes Zoro to vote Kmd (WTH, was there even more support for Kmd-wagon than Zoro-wagon then?) makes it seem more forced, and like he's more hung up on justifying his vote. There wasn't much content in between, either. Eyes on the prize for Hoopla, buuuuuut Ekim warrants looking-at tomorrow.

PREVIEW EDIT: I'LL GET TO HOOPLA'S MEGA-POST ASAP.

But I'll be V/LA until about Friday. I'll be in Washington and don't expect to have any access.
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Post Post #735 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:29 am

Post by VasudeVa »

This is pure genius. I love it.
Call me Vas, ;D A little less active than I used to be due to IRL. Hoping to be back up to speed soon-ish!
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Post Post #736 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:29 am

Post by Hoopla »

I'm hopeful that if I've got the janitor to waste their action, it'll make bandwagon analysis completely trustable for the rest of the game, which will be a massive benefit for the town, which will definitely offset the 10-20% chance of lynching scum Day 1 we could have taken instead of lynching me.
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Post Post #737 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:33 am

Post by SpyreX »

I'd still much rather lynch a scum you know especially since until you vanished and stopped playing I didn't like it DOUBLY so considering [ongoing games redacted].

It's a smooth move but still an unnecessary sacrifice to protect the analysis.
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Post Post #738 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:36 am

Post by Hoopla »

I think it was definitely worthwhile, if it works - which I feel like it has a 60-70% of doing. The loss of the Day 1 lynch which COULD have been on scum (but probably a different townie) is mostly incosequential, because you should have a decent amount of information to work with tomorrow and the next day. And that is almost always what the Day 1 lynch is for - especially in a large game.
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Post Post #739 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:37 am

Post by Hoopla »

I'm not pregnant, by the way.
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Post Post #740 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:38 am

Post by SpyreX »

Ohh I applaud it. I think we could have got 95% of the results and an all but confirmed town AND a different lynch if you had dropped that bomb without the hammer fo' sho and that's what I'm gritting my teeth at.

Reaaaaly? Good gravy girl
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Post Post #741 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:38 am

Post by Seraphim »

My only worry is that you jumped the gun and didn't give scum enough time to use the ability on you. You could have pushed deadline a little bit closer.
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Post Post #742 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:41 am

Post by Hoopla »

Seraphim wrote:My only worry is that you jumped the gun and didn't give scum enough time to use the ability on you. You could have pushed deadline a little bit closer.
Maybe - but I was worried that someone else would have hammered. This close to deadline though, scum would have already decided if they were going to use it, one way or another. There's no way they'd be in limbo. They must have made an active decision.
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Post Post #743 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:44 am

Post by Seraphim »

Hoopla wrote:
Seraphim wrote:My only worry is that you jumped the gun and didn't give scum enough time to use the ability on you. You could have pushed deadline a little bit closer.
Maybe - but I was worried that someone else would have hammered. This close to deadline though, scum would have already decided if they were going to use it, one way or another. There's no way they'd be in limbo. They must have made an active decision.
Well, if you pulled this off, I applaud you. Not many people are gutsy enough to put themselves up for lynch for only a possible benefit.
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Post Post #744 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:04 am

Post by mith »

Meh. Hoopla, I don't think this was good play, but it's good to know you had a reason for acting as you did. I would have been extremely annoyed if you had just given up on the game as town.

If you're scum, this would be an extremely foolish gambit, so if the Janitor has been used, assuming you are town is the correct play. Don't like Seraphim's reaction at all.

Otherwise... Hoopla's reads make sense for the most part. If the janitor has been used, we need to be a little careful with traditional wagon analysis, though - scum may have been voting differently knowing the lynch would be no reveal. (Strongest agreements, in case I am killed: Elmo, VasudeVa, and zoraster are probably town; DGB, Herodotus, and SpyreX are suspect.)
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Post Post #745 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:06 am

Post by Seraphim »

What, did you expect me to jump for joy? I'm keeping neutral until I see the results of the gambit.
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Post Post #746 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:19 am

Post by Hoopla »

AT LEAST IT WAS BETTER THAN DGB'S GAMBIT
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Post Post #747 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:04 pm

Post by Zorblag »

@Hoopla, that no actually be a particularly useful measuring stick. It do be somewhat fascinating to see what someone else has attempted to do with the Janitor though.

Troll will have more to say about other things tomorrow.

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Post Post #748 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:11 pm

Post by Elmo »

How perversely logical, Hoopla :)
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Post Post #749 (ISO) » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:09 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

Um.
Hoopla wrote:AT LEAST IT WAS BETTER THAN DGB'S GAMBIT
lol?
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