Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)

[q21]

If you flip town then Humble's night action plan begins to look like the perfect plan to get both diddin (JK) and you (doctor) out of the game in the space of one night and one day.

Can you explain this plot to me? I'm not following you. When was this plot hatched and when would it be executed?

The night action plan HP proposed left diddin completely open to nightkill. Every other PR was protected in some way or another, either directly where the kill would have failed, or indirectly where the scum would be caught. No one raised any issues with this because diddin was scummy. Then diddin dies. Today xvart is in a crappy place if he's town because despite my substandard play and vezok's general scumminess - and even the fact that SSBF is from a game play perspective scummier - xvart is still among the best lynches.

That, of course, falls on its ass if xvart is scum, which I think more likely. Hence the location of my vote.

[totallynotmafia]

Vote count 4.1

Oso (0)
Humble Poirot (0)
q21 (1) charter
charter (0)
xvart (2) q21, Oso
vezokpiraka (0)
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0)

Not voting: Humble Poirot, xvart, vezokpiraka, Super Smash Bros. Fan

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

Deadline is September 5th, 2:00 PM (GMT + 10:00).

[vezokpiraka]

After seeing this votecount. Coupling with things in my head I can say.
Oso - Scum. Could be scum tracker. Why are you voting xvart when I am in investigative role like you. The fact is you know he is town. You know I am town. You are trying to fore a lynch on him because you can't kill him.
Hp - town. his play was that of a good townie. I don't want to hear about lynching him except if we are not in LyLo.
q21 - Scum . You are voting xvart. For no reason. Just to stay with your buddy.
charter - Neural. I think he is town but there is still the Hp think. Heh. I don't think I want to lynch him now.
xvart - Town. His play was town He acted like town. Scums are voting for him. He is 90% town in my book.
Vezok - Handsome town.
SSBF - Neutral leaning town. I can't gather much from you.

With that said I will now

unvote Vote Oso

I have the biggest read on him as scum

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@vezokpiraka: Absolutely hated the Oso vote. Your vote is on a very likely townie who IMO has done little to catch my attention in terms of scumminess. Your reason for voting Oso also makes no sense.

[Humble Poirot]

SSBF, from Vezok's POV, it does make sense to vote him but what seems strange is that he doesn't emphasize so much in the fact that he is a watcher and Oso is a tracker but claims Oso is his biggest scumread.

[Humble Poirot]

Hey! Look!


Who want's some?

It's my scumday!

Mod: A votecount would be awesome.

[q21]

Um... there's a vote count four posts um, HP.

[q21]

...meant to say 4 posts up...

[Humble Poirot]

Good, It was a test to see if you were paying attention... heh...

And you are, but you don't feel the need to answer Charter's vote on you...

I'm wondering if I should give you an incentive.

[xvart]

charter - I protected Oso last night.

SSBF - why did you wait so long to claim?

The fact that Vezok justifies a vote on Oso without including the fact that he is a claimed tracker is highly suspicious.

From my perspective,

confirmed not mafia players

include:
charter (this player slot has basically been ignored all game; why would he be trying to get involved if he was scum and could easily coast to end game?)
Humble (doc protected on N1, no kill N1, possible lynchee)
xvart (doctor, protected Humble N1, no NK N1)

Unconfirmed alignments:

vezok (watcher)
Oso (claimed tracker)
SSBF (claimed VT)
q21 (claimed VT)

We should lynch Vezok today. If he flips town (unlikely), Oso is scum, and gets lynched tomorrow in LYLO. Then we have to decide beteen q2t and SSBF for the remaining scum. Maybe I'll save someone again, which would then confirm another player (unless they target me and I don't protect myself). Or, I save Oso (pending Vezok scum flip) and he tracks either SSBF or q21 and we get a result or no result, then know who the remaining scum is.

Thoughts?

xvart.

xvart.

[charter]

You should.

Others should as well.

I think Xvart is the wrong direction. Wasting your roleblocker night one just seems like such a terrible move at scum. They couldn't even be thinking, 'hey, we can frame someone three days down the road if we screw ourselves over now!' There is literally zero benefit to doing that night one. Like I said before, any of the people remaining (the other two potential scum) were under very little scrutiny at the end of day one, and probably wouldn't be fearing being tracked.

[Humble Poirot]

charter (this player slot has basically been ignored all game; why would he be trying to get involved if he was scum and could easily coast to end game?)

uhh.... because if he didn't it would be extremely weird considering he has quite a meta to look at?

Thoughts?

what's more unbalanced? JK + Doc or JK + Watcher. The interesting thing about JK is that he prevents the other role from being useful so as to avoid Town PR locks.

But we have to add the fact that there's 3 unconfirmed claims right now:
Doc, Tracker, watcher.

Tracker doesn't seem as powerful as watcher but neither it is for scum.

I'm still pretty positive Cop was not sane.

Vezok has always wanted to claim. Never fearing the likely night kill a town power role would suffer.

Deliberately anti-town and confusing playstyle. Never talking about people like quadz and then, when lynched, calling them obvscum (so that we think he is totally wrong?).

One of vezok and xvart is scum. That's for sure. Doc + Watcher is

ALL POWERFUL.

Vote Vezok

, I invite the bold to read his ISO.

He has done every little thing that scum would do and gotten away with it because of a claim he was eager to claim (because he IS mafia watcher).

It's so damn funny that no one is voting him, right now. Kage was right, we should've lynched him day 1.

@Charter: Your big post calls Oso town, Xvart town... and when having to choose between SSBF,q21 and vezok completely ignores the fact of the huge amount of power roles. I'm not saying q21 or SSBF are not possible scum candidates but, come on, your post pretends the setup is

Cop+JK

+Doc+Tracker+Watcher vs

Roleblocker

+ ? (+?)

Putting the claim jigsaw puzzle together, Vezo's targets are plausible. In addition, if you look at when Vezo claimed, Sotty immediately wants to see who targeted Oso at night, and then you see who died that night? The same person, Kagelord. It doesn't look to me like Sotty knew who Vezo targeted.

Sotty just asked him to claim the abilities because it was the pro-town thing to do. Vezok had no reasons to hide information and Sotty had been permanently bussing vezok, knowing he was the scummiest player.

[charter]

I'm pretty sure I've been in games with a comparable amount of power roles in the town as what it could be here. Plus, if our cop is actually naive, that's almost like a bonus scum member with how bad of a role for the town that is.

However, I'll go take another look at Vezo, because I think if one of the alive power roles is scum, it's probably him.

[vezokpiraka]

What I was saying is this.
Oso knows e is town. He had a cop flip town He should be voting me. But he doesn't. That looks like scum who want to force a lynch on the doc. I don't know how to explain it better but t makes sense for me.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

why did you wait so long to claim?

As suggested by my signiture, I'm semi-V/LA due to school taking up a lot of my time. As a result, sometimes, I am not able to make a substantial post. Also, I want a post to have at least some substance in it.

[Oso]

What I was saying is this.
Oso knows e is town. He had a cop flip town

He should be voting me.

But he doesn't. That looks like scum who want to force a lynch on the doc. I don't know how to explain it better but t makes sense for me.

KG flipped town, so? How does that relate to a watcher claim exactly, you are the one that caught him visiting me even. That pretty much nails you 100% as truthful in half of your claim. The watcher part. It's the alignment part that is in doubt.

Xvart, on the other hand, has a role that almost 100% identical to diddin's except it lacks the role-blocking aspect. Fluff it up any way you want but Doc and JailKeeper are close enough to identical in terms of play that they can be considered equal when looking at claims. diddin was a Town aligned JailKeeper therefore, at least in my mind, xvart's claim has to be false.

There are some points that have been brought up in the last couple days or so (I just caught up mostly) though that I hadn't considered and will take a look at. So, right now, my xvart vote isn't as set in stone as it is when I made it. It's staying where it is at for the moment but I'm doing some review of it.

[vezokpiraka]

I went for a walk and thought about things.
I now believe Oso and distrust xvart.
Maybe the mafia no killed night 1 to make xvart a believable role claim. They hadn't knew there are was diddin who would block sotty.
I have no idea why xvart protected humble night 2.Maybe to make his claim more believable.I have seen xvart as scum and he is pretty good.
I think the way the roles it may be balanced.
Think about. Watcher + tracker + cop + JK on town side and 1-2 scum RBer. +ninja or godfather or stuff like that.
If the sums have enough roleblockers and the town doctor actually roleblockks the targets I see how we can have that many investigative roles.

unvote
Vote xvart

I know it's a complete turn but I actually thought about this hard.

[xvart]

I have no idea why xvart protected humble night 2.Maybe to make his claim more believable.I have seen xvart as scum and he is pretty good.

You flatter me. Every time I read this thread I wish I would've protected KageLord N2. I seriously thought about it as I explained (quoted below). Since I am now a hairs breath away from being lynched, I suppose it is time to start the counter wagon on someone who is actually scum.
VOTE: Vezok (L-2)

I protected Humble on night two, as well. I strongly considered protecting KageLord due to his soft claim, but I WIFOM'ed myself to death on whether or not the scum would roleblock KageLord and kill an active and thoughtful town. Since vezok had his softclaim day one and survived I figured that KageLord would probably also not be the target and since Watcher's typically do not have the ability to watch themselves I thought that diddin would block KageLord and then pretend to JK someone else, maybe even a partner that would confirm his results.

xvart.

[Humble Poirot]

Seriously... You guys... Seriously...

Vezok = Scum. It's absurd at this point. Xvart may or may not be scum (I'm still wondering why vezok would out him if they were a team) but Vezok is the sure deal.

Vezok is not going to die, ever. Because he is scum.

xvart is L-1.
Charter is voting q21 and SSBF is not voting.

[Oso]

My vote is staying on xvart.

Post 768

That's exactly my point though, your (town) flip would tell us that diddin was scum no questions asked since it is highly highly unlikely that there would be two town aligned roleblocking roles. And if you flip scum, it makes diddin's claim more likely to be true. If you both are roleblockers like you both claim to be, you are not on the same side. Knowing what you knew at the time, there is no way someone aligned with town would say that these circumstances would yield no information about the other's alignment.

xvart.

That was xvart's response to Sotty7 when she said that her flip as town wouldn't reflect any at all on diddin's alignment. The role-blocking part is stressed there. Flip that around a bitand look at the 'Doc' part of diddin's role, note that his alignment is confirmed (being that he is dead and flipped) and then look at xvart's claim. The same logic applies here. To be quite honest, had(xvart) countered diddin on the day diddin made his claim, I'd have been the first on the diddin wagon. That he waited to counter until after he had been tagged performing a night action counts very heavily against him in my book.

Especially in light of this question in Post 783:

..
SSBF, diddin, and vezok - if you had to guess and based on what you know, what do you think my night action is? (and yes, there is a point to this question and I will explain fully; I'm not trying to create a claim based on what people think)
..

Despite his disclaimer, I can't think of any reason to ask that question unless there is some doubt in his mind as to whether his claim is going to be believed. Now whether you think he had doubts because he is actually a Doctor and thought he might end up lynched when stacked up to diddin's claim or that he was fishing for a believable role is up to you. I am believing the latter because of diddin's claim and these (all xvart posts):

Post 798:..Like I said, I think you should track diddin tonight no matter what happens..(This towards me.)
-
Post 802:..Do you agree that tracking diddin tonight will yield us important information about his alignment? What do you think will happen if we track diddin?...(This to SSBF.)
-
Post 807How do you feel about being tracked tonight? (This to diddin.)
-
Post 819:Go with Humble's Plan. Since the results coming through on Oso depend on me protecting Oso does the scum want to do a little WIFOM tango during the night on whether or not I actually will or will I try and save Humble or q21? I think those are the two that are most vulnerable tonight with the state of the game and the night plans. (This to the thread in general.)
-
Post 823:No. Stay on target. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMDV3eISLPs#t=0m20s (This again to diddin.)
-
Post 837

..
The thoughts I was withholding was that I think Oso might be the likely scum, and possibly not even a tracker at all. For him to get a "no result" on diddin means diddin would have had to Jailkeep him. Why would town diddin JK Oso when that would have cleared him today? Especially considering diddin was a likely lynch today based on the end of day discussion yesterday. Yesterday, I think most people believed me being doctor over him being Jailkeeper, so why would scum kill a probable lynch, unless diddin would expose scum?

We never directed diddin on whom to Jailkeep, so non-tracker scum Oso would not be able to predict where he went last night, and would therefore expose Oso when diddin counterclaimed an alternate target. I'll have to go back and check to see Oso's timing on his results to see if he had any inside information before it was discussed in thread

..

5 instances that I could find where xvart acknowledges that he not only knows about the plan to have diddin jail me, and me track diddin, but 2 of them (819,823) where he makes a point of stressing that is what should be done. Sudden brain fart just doesn't seem to quite cover that.

[xvart]

That was xvart's response to Sotty7 when she said that her flip as town wouldn't reflect any at all on diddin's alignment. The role-blocking part is stressed there. Flip that around a bitand look at the 'Doc' part of diddin's role, note that his alignment is confirmed (being that he is dead and flipped) and then look at xvart's claim. The same logic applies here. To be quite honest, had(xvart) countered diddin on the day diddin made his claim, I'd have been the first on the diddin wagon. That he waited to counter until after he had been tagged performing a night action counts very heavily against him in my book.

The quote of mine was typed in an attempt to protect my role and alignment. I said the stuff about diddin being more likely to be town to play off the impression that I might be a doctor, which was becoming increasingly obvious. After I realized that once I died everyone would know I was a doctor and diddin would be exposed. And I didn't want to counter claim and expose myself because I thought I could push through diddin regardless because of his scummy behavior.

5 instances that I could find where xvart acknowledges that he not only knows about the plan to have diddin jail me, and me track diddin, but 2 of them (819,823) where he makes a point of stressing that is what should be done. Sudden brain fart just doesn't seem to quite cover that.

Actually, those are five instances where I acknowledge you tracking diddin; not diddin JK'ing you.

Despite his disclaimer, I can't think of any reason to ask that question unless there is some doubt in his mind as to whether his claim is going to be believed. Now whether you think he had doubts because he is actually a Doctor and thought he might end up lynched when stacked up to diddin's claim or that he was fishing for a believable role is up to you. I am believing the latter because of diddin's claim and these (all xvart posts):

I was asking the question because I was hoping to trap scum by having them say I was the doctor but having an alternate play or trying to push my lynch. I also was gauging whether or not scum already thought I was doctor or not, which if they all said doctor what does it matter if I claim or not? If you look back at my play and posting, my intensity and questioning of diddin when he claimed, I'm either a very elaborate and meticulous scum setting up this claim while immensely stupid by creating a fake claim that would get me auto lynched after diddin flipped; or I'm actually the town doctor.

xvart.

[vezokpiraka]

Or WIFOM.
Your last question is fearmongering.
I really think you are scum now xvart.
Tomorrow I may have a different opinion though. All is better with a clear mind.

[xvart]

I really think you are scum now xvart.
Tomorrow I may have a different opinion though. All is better with a clear mind.

You will most certainly have a different opinion tomorrow. In fact, you will have a different opinion immediately after my lynch flip.

xvart.

[charter]

Oso, you're being extremely hypocritical here. Jailkeeper and Doctor are similar. As are Cop, Watcher, and Tracker. You're voting for Xvart because his role is similar to one that's died. Why should we not vote you for being a similar role to one that died? Or why shouldn't we vote for Vezo. Why aren't you voting for Vezo?

In addition, you're ignoring the overwhelming circumstantial evidence pointing towards Xvart being a doctor (and I'm not seeing scum doc in this game one bit). The biggest is that there was no NK night one, and it's unlikely Sotty made the kill (again, zero benefit from her doing it, and they lose the roleblock). Plus, there's Vezo's watching him visit HP. He wasn't killing HP, so he has some other role. I find two mafia roleblockers to be highly unlikely. At that point, you might as well not have any town power roles. It's possible he's some other kind of role, but frankly, him being a doctor makes the most sense.

Yes, I think I've talked myself in to one of Oso or Vezo being scum. I'll agree that Vezo has definitely been scummier, but something I just thought of was how Oso immediately brought up Kage being insane. I don't see that as very likely if he were town. I'll have to reread that as well.

unvote

I see it's clear we're not lynching q21 today, so I'll save that for after we get another scum. I'm not voting Xvart.

NO ONE SHOULD HAMMER XVART RIGHT NOW. Still need some time today to reread.

[charter]

Actually, I'm not ready to give up on q21. He's painfully obvious scum. Look at him sit back on his poorly justified Xvart vote while having the built in mislynch tomorrow of one of Vezo/Oso.