/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[Jack]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 50&start=0

[Incognito]

Vote Count #4 of Day 2

jasonT1981 (3) <-~ Sotty7, MagnaofIllusion, farside22
Jack (2) <-~ Ythan, Sando
Ythan (1) <-~ Jack

Not voting (5) <-~ vollkan, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet, jasonT1981

11 living; 6 will do it.

Deadline:

Saturday, September 4th at 6 P.M. EST

[Jack]

Not voting (5) <-~ vollkan, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet, jasonT1981

Vote ythan.

Well, locke is still v/la, but the rest of you.

[vollkan]

182: Zach’s defence of Charlie makes no sense. He says Charlie’s actions are too blatant and draw too much attention, which scum don’t want. He doesn’t seriously argue that Charlie is a non-scummy newbie, but he also avoids joining the wagon

Zach+1

187: No content from Prozac, but he seems RL busy
194: Sando only posts to make a lurker attack on Prozac

Sando+1

201: Locke says he is finding Zajnet scummier for going on VLA, and asks why we SHOULDN’T lynch Zaj.

Locke+2

215: This is interesting. Zach had earlier said he wanted to lynch Zaj – but there was no basis for this other than lurking. Now Zach moves over to the Zaj-wagon, but he quotes Locke’s weak post referred to above. It doesn’t add anything to Zach’s basis for lynching Zaj. Hence,

Zach+2

for both a weak vote and for needlessly trying to bring another player (Locke) into association with his vote -as well as for the hypocrisy inherent in him attacking somebody else for lurkiness.
253: Jack claims masonizer, failed on MOI. Confusing since no night phase...
270: Jack says he thought he could swing t to MOI....this would be scummy but for the fact that it would have avoided a Charlie lynch, so there was no incentive for Jack-scum to do this
278: This is weak. Jason brings up an isolated instance of Sotty-scum using meta, totally ingoring the evidence Sotty presented that he uses it as town, making it a classic nulltell.

Jason+2

292: Jack votes MOI.

@Jack

: In between 20 and 200 words, why is MOI scummy?
313: MOI makes a good point on a

Jack-Jason scum link evidence

325: Jason’s vote on Jack makes no sense and looks like distancing.

Jason+2

In my next post (typing now), I will add up all my scores.

[vollkan]

Vollkan’s Scumometer
Ythan	50
farside	53
Jack	50
Locke	52
MOI	50
Prozac	51
Sando	53
Sotty	57
Jason (nee Zach)	59
Zaj	53
Vote: Jason

[Sando]

22: Sando jumps on it seriously (showing no actual reflection on Jack's motives), and repeats the boilerplate attack against people who accuse others of rolefishing. Sando+1

Unvote, Vote: Vollkan

I can't fully explain this, it relates to an ongoing game, but I'll paraphrase.

1: Vollkan is saying that I am using a 'boilerplate' attack and that that is scummy. By boilerplate he is loosely refering to the idea that I'm playing wiki-mafia, just going by easy attacks that are pretty bad accusations to make.

2: Vollkan thinks boilerplate scumtells are terrible because they have no real basis or empirical data to back them up, they're all talk, no action basically. He thinks that they're basically a gut attack, that I've just been told that this is a scummy thing, and I can't actually back up why.

3: Vollkan has incontrovertible proof (this is the bit relating to an ongoing game) that not only is using a boilerplate scumtell against someone NOT always scummy as he is accusing me of here, but that me using them is in my town-meta. How does he know this? He has lynched me in an ongoing game because I used 'boilerplate' scumtells, and I flipped town.

194: Sando only posts to make a lurker attack on Prozac Sando+1

Care to explain where I attacked Pro for lurking in this post? Not having an opinion and Lurking are two very different things.

[vollkan]

22: Sando jumps on it seriously (showing no actual reflection on Jack's motives), and repeats the boilerplate attack against people who accuse others of rolefishing. Sando+1

Unvote, Vote: Vollkan

I can't fully explain this, it relates to an ongoing game, but I'll paraphrase.

1: Vollkan is saying that I am using a 'boilerplate' attack and that that is scummy. By boilerplate he is loosely refering to the idea that I'm playing wiki-mafia, just going by easy attacks that are pretty bad accusations to make.

2: Vollkan thinks boilerplate scumtells are terrible because they have no real basis or empirical data to back them up, they're all talk, no action basically. He thinks that they're basically a gut attack, that I've just been told that this is a scummy thing, and I can't actually back up why.

3: Vollkan has incontrovertible proof (this is the bit relating to an ongoing game) that not only is using a boilerplate scumtell against someone NOT always scummy as he is accusing me of here, but that me using them is in my town-meta. How does he know this? He has lynched me in an ongoing game because I used 'boilerplate' scumtells, and I flipped town.

194: Sando only posts to make a lurker attack on Prozac Sando+1

Care to explain where I attacked Pro for lurking in this post? Not having an opinion and Lurking are two very different things.

On 'boilerplates':
1) My position is that boilerplates are scummy. It is true that I have attacked Sando-town in the past for boilerplates (ongoing game). I don't accept, however, that makes them part of his meta and thus a nulltell. I agree that it does make them less of a scumtell in his case (hence only one point). At the same time, I will not accept that something which is scummy a lot of the time becomes a null tell for Sando simply because he has done similar things in one other game.
2) The above is even kind of prosaic in this particular case, because the tell in question here is not the use of boilerplate simpliciter but, rather, a lack of reflection.

On lurker attack:
I'm going to quote your 194 here:

I'm really not liking that Poro is basically defending wishy-washy not taking a stand by saying he's VLA. Yeah, he was VLA (I can vouch for this, he's VLA in another game in consistent timing), but that's not the point.

Saying 'I've caught up' means that you've read the whole thread and absorbed the whole thing. You can't then defend not having an opinion by saying you were VLA, you had fully caught up and yet still didn't have an opinion.

Prozac had been abundantly clear that he was RL-busy. Yes, he should have caught up properly by that. But he clearly hadn't, at least to the point of being able to post. That sucks, it's anti-town, and it simply spreads the cancer that is lurking, etc etc -

but it isn't scummy

.

[jasonT1981]

Sotty, I would like to ask you this... in particular about the bolded below.

Jason comes in and he must be really annoyed. Because he knows that I can read him as easily as I can read Zach.

He makes a big catch post that isn't helpful in any obvious way

Do you feel, vollkan's big catch up was helpful in anyway? Interesting you commented on my catch up like this... just wondering if you felt the same way... or a different way about vollkan's catch up. You were asking for it yesterday (real time yesterday) but have not commented on it since he is 'up to date' as you put it.

[Sotty7]

Pretty sure I already said I don't like his points system. I don't like when people go back though and comment on every little thing in the thread as a replacement, I prefer the summary. Neither catch up post were inspiring to me, but it's not a scummy thing. It's a play style thing.

[Sotty7]

Also deflect much? Aren't you going to comment at all, on the recent votes for you?

[jasonT1981]

OK fair enough. I saw you were not a fan of the point system. I guess its better than Masten style posting though. I used to do the quotes thing.. but switched to the point catch up a while back. Easier for people to read I Guess without walls of quotes.

EBYOP: I pretty much expected the vote to go on me really. I do have issue with this though.

325: Jason’s vote on Jack makes no sense and looks like distancing.

Jason+2

In his catch up read through, I would think he would have noticed my day 1 suspicion of Jack. As well as continued suspicion on Day 2 early on when I questioned him for his roleclaim.. and a possible retraction of the claim. I am not sure if his post was an actual retraction or not.. His declaring Charlie Obv town at start of day2 but did nothing on day 1 to say that.

However, since re-reading Supreme court mafia, that I played in with Jack. I started to get a more town feel for Jack which is why I retracted my vote.

I had suspicion on Jack from early in the game and had documented it quite a few times and had a few exchanges with him.. so to say my vote makes no sense is a misrep. I had issues with Jack that are plain for all to see.

[Jack]

Yeah I think those are very valid criticisms of vollkan's catchup posts, and signs of fakery.

fos:vollkan

[MagnaofIllusion]

325 to 331 is just comical –

“I’m voting Jack because he threatened me”
“I mislynced you once in another game that has no bearing on your alignment here, so you must be Town”
“Oh, I remember that. Unvote Jack, that same game makes me think you are Town”

This exchange is so blantant I’m starting to doubt whether the links between Jack and Jason I saw earlier are valid.

Accusing me of boilerplate scumtells Vollkan... Cute.

Are you suggesting that you are too good a scum player to commit run-of-the-mill Wiki tells?

I think I need to review your Weeds Mafia play to see how it looks compared to this game.

@Jason

– Your play today is exactly the same as Zach’s – reactive defensiveness mixed with a complete lack of scum-hutning. My vote stays right where it is.

moi has been very fakey

I’m glad you can quantify exactly why I’m scum with clear details and support

I’d ask you to support your generic assertions but I know it’s a waste of time since all you do is drop ‘reads’ into the thread and look for reactions.

Also you ‘Lynch all Lurkers’ paragraph is interesting. You whip out this long (for you) explanation of why you have to lynch them Day 2 when Day 1 should have been when you pushed CDB / Ythan or Poro or Zaj.

Why is meta a stronger reason to lynch someone than Zajnet’s hammer without claim?

Have you consistently shown this LaL belief during your play here at MS?

For everyone else

– I ask these questions knowing Jack will ignore them. Being accountable for his own actions isn’t something he is big on.

[Jack]

I was absent for about a week towards the end of day 1

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... NQ&cad=rja

summary: I believe my approach is epistemically sound and have research to back it up.

[Jack]

So with vollkan being scummy (like imkingdavid) sotty is back on the town block.

I propose a sando-farside-jack-sotty "townie discussion group". Although maybe sando still thinks I'm mafia. But I think discussing the game with people you generally trust leads to more insight than arguing with mafia. Topics:

1) jason, guilty or scummy acting townie
2) ythan, lurkerscum?
3) vollkan, does his game summary show lack of real thought, or is it a byproduct of his playstyle? What about imkingdavid, what can we say about him?

[Jack]

Check imkingdavids ISO 7:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2432342

The very picture of a wishy washy, IIoA tentatative vote post.

[Jack]

325 to 331 is just comical –

“I’m voting Jack because he threatened me”
“I mislynced you once in another game that has no bearing on your alignment here, so you must be Town”
“Oh, I remember that. Unvote Jack, that same game makes me think you are Town”

This exchange is so blantant I’m starting to doubt whether the links between Jack and Jason I saw earlier are valid.

Just a few quick questions about this MoI.

You obviously never played with Jack. I dubbed him the person to always do something scummy for reaction purposes. It's why I like playing with him. He gets the game going that way.

I’m going to agree. My experience with Jack shows exactly this behaviour.

Can you show examples of said games that ‘disprove’ the scum meta read that Sotty is presenting? No, I’m not going to hunt through your Wiki for them.

Re: IKD at 149 – These are all valid points. Jack is getting a pass simply based on his history of ‘wacky’ antics. If anything read the Princess Bride Mini that ended in the last month or so. Jack latched onto Sensfan with similar lack of explanation and ended up lynching a Serial Killer.

Regarding Jack’s meta and his play this game – here are his three most recent completed games:

Quick and Dirty Mafia – he flipped Goon.
Gears of War Mafia– he won as a Serial Killer
Alternate Vote Mafia– he was engamed as an undisclosed Town role.

[editors note--these had links]

Take a look at his play in each game and decide which he most resembles. I’m leaning towards Mafia based on his lethargic, listless play in this game and Q&D Mafia.

Did you read Jack’s three recent games that I posted? Are you saying his game here resembles a Town game?

When I used meta to explain my backing off jason you say it is "blatantly scummy" and a reference to another game that

"has no bearing on his alignment"

. But you have frequently brought up meta--you agree with farside that my actions are like my town meta, and then you bring up princess bride as a further argument. You note that I didn't explain my vote and ended up lynching the SK. Later you make a meta case on me, somehow digging up 3 recent games but ignoring that my activity had dropped sitewide for about a week--calling what you had said was town meta scummy.

How can you reconcile that with saying that a reference to another game has "no bearing on someone's alignment"?

[Jack]

325: Jason’s vote on Jack makes no sense and looks like distancing. Jason+2

Do I understand your points system correctly?

Ythan 50
farside 53
Jack 50
Locke 52
MOI 50
Prozac 51
Sando 53
Sotty 57
Jason (nee Zach) 59
Zaj 53

You have me at the lowest, right? But Jasons vote looks like distancing?

313: MOI makes a good point on a Jack-Jason scum link evidence

So why am I at 50?

[MagnaofIllusion]

When I used meta to explain my backing off jason you say it is "blatantly scummy" and a reference to another game that "has no bearing on his alignment". But you have frequently brought up meta--you agree with farside that my actions are like my town meta, and then you bring up princess bride as a further argument. You note that I didn't explain my vote and ended up lynching the SK. Later you make a meta case on me, somehow digging up 3 recent games but ignoring that my activity had dropped sitewide for about a week--calling what you had said was town meta scummy.

How can you reconcile that with saying that a reference to another game has "no bearing on someone's alignment"?

Nice of you to not bother to answer direct questions. Note that unlike you I welcome discussion. Regarding your post above.

There is a HUGE difference between using Meta (ie the general tendencies of a player as a whole for any given alignment) and referencing a single, specific game. You didn’t reference other games where Jason plays the same. Just a single outlier. Have you played in other games where Jason was mislynched playing like he is?

Why, when referencing Meta, should I be disallowed to reference games of recent vintage with three separate alignments in comparison to your game here? You state you sitewide activity dropped for a week – your point? Given that your activity in Quick and Dirty (where you were Mafia) was very relevant to your play Day 1 a logical conclusion is that you have an inherent dislike for Mafia roles, and thus your ‘lower activity’ is a result of that. So please don’t accuse me of ‘ignoring’ your drop in activity.

I don’t really have a need to reconcile anything given the above.

Is it your contention that meta should be a valid defense for you (your early game pointless antics) but not be a valid reason for suspecting you?

[jasonT1981]

Jack, you make very good points. I also notice, he makes no points towards (scum?) sotty after post 79 of his catchup yet has her at 2nd most likely scum.... and only makes mention of me/zach after Sotty pushes Zachs lurking. I feel his vote is opertunistic.

in fact it is not until his 2nd catch up post he even makes reference to Zach.

vote:vollkan

His points system is a bit weird

[Sotty7]

I had suspicion on Jack from early in the game and had documented it quite a few times and had a few exchanges with him.. so to say my vote makes no sense is a misrep. I had issues with Jack that are plain for all to see.

Your vote on Jack was pretty weak though, it was like you voted him for demanding you vote more than anything. Just because you voiced suspicions of Jack in thread, doesn't mean that your vote on him can't be seen as distancing or not adding up clearly as you seem to suggest.

= = = =

1) jason, guilty or scummy acting townie

Guilty.

2) ythan, lurkerscum?

It's very likely.

3) vollkan, does his game summary show lack of real thought, or is it a byproduct of his playstyle? What about imkingdavid, what can we say about him?

This is how vollkan plays the game, it's a null tell. Now he is up to date I'm hoping to get a better read on him. Sando's reaction to him is pretty bad in my eyes.

IKD didn't do a whole lot but post V/LA notices and push on you. His case seemed genuine, but his lack of doing anything else leaves this player slot firmly in neutral leaning possible scum as of now.

[jasonT1981]

I had suspicion on Jack from early in the game and had documented it quite a few times and had a few exchanges with him.. so to say my vote makes no sense is a misrep. I had issues with Jack that are plain for all to see.

Your vote on Jack was pretty weak though, it was like you voted him for demanding you vote more than anything. Just because you voiced suspicions of Jack in thread, doesn't mean that your vote on him can't be seen as distancing or not adding up clearly as you seem to suggest..

My point is though, he made it seem that I had no reason what so ever to vote Jack. in response to you saying I voted Jack just because he demanded me to vote... well I strongly disgree...In fact, my vote came MANY posts after he demanded I voted. It was not right away. It was 2 pages and 2 days later I voted from the point Jack demanded..So no, it was not a vote because I was being demanded to vote.

[jasonT1981]

I really don't know why zach replaced. He's in other games

and it bothers me when I see someone being pressured who replaces out of the blue

I caught this earlier, but didnt post as I wanted to check somethings out first before posting anything concrete.

Hmmm this is actually a lie designed to make the role I have replaced in, look even scummier. Zachrulez is not actually involved in any active games. the only games he is in... is a hydra account with Sotty herself. However, the Zachrulez account IS NOT currently playing any games. So this is a barefaced lie.

Major FOS: Farside

[farside22]

So with vollkan being scummy (like imkingdavid) sotty is back on the town block.

I propose a sando-farside-jack-sotty "townie discussion group". Although maybe sando still thinks I'm mafia. But I think discussing the game with people you generally trust leads to more insight than arguing with mafia. Topics:

1) jason, guilty or scummy acting townie
2) ythan, lurkerscum?
3) vollkan, does his game summary show lack of real thought, or is it a byproduct of his playstyle? What about imkingdavid, what can we say about him?

1) Jason is guilty I looked at both zach and his play in regards to this
2) I vote yes
3) I don't know volkan's play style per say. I don't understand the final number and how porochaz is so low. I don't care about RL issues I have my own and I can still come on and scum hunt

[Jack]

Hey Zajnet, how about some of those stronger stances I asked for? You seem to have failed to talk about anyone other than MOI since I asked that question. You haven't really said much about MOI either, other than to repeat what's already been said. Any analysis on any other players in the game?

I'm shit for analysis on D1. Charlie is acting scummy, but not enough so that I would feel confidant lynching him. I still feel MOI is the scummiest, for reasons I've already stated (they may be brief but so what?).

We can't afford a no-lynch and deadline is almost here, so I'll go ahead and hammer Charlie.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Charlie

We'll deal with the Jack/MOI situation tomorrow.

Do you still feel that MoI is the scummiest? How is your d2 analysis?

moi
vollkan/imking
zajnet
ythan

^^very good place to find our scum...I might put zajnet over ythan on reflection. Don't know about porochaz.