Ladies Night -- Game Over

[Hoopla]

Ah, sorry,

Vote Sucrose

I should have done that in the last post.

Cut by Hoopla: DGB is interesting. Not entirely sure what to make of her. I rarely am. I'm not entirely sure I've often seen this barrage of "X is town" from DGB before whatsoever.

camn said some interesting things

that lead me to believe she's just irritating, not necessarily scum.

What sort of interesting things? She's been pretty spot on so far.

Oh, hey, also of note, she never did answer my riposte about how absolutely TERRIBLE her single game sample size was of the prevalence of angriness.

What's this about?

[Hoopla]

Sotty (for tentative, scaredy-cat language), ODD scumreads,

and OFF the Paws wagon safely on a peripheral wagon that wasn't going anywhere.

Not really, though...

Come on DGB, I know you're better than this.

I meant, OFF scumreads, not ODD scumreads.

I don't like your 'tude, Miss Hoopla.

No, I was talking about the bit I bolded. Sotty wasn't OFF the Paws wagon - she parked her vote ON her early and stayed there.

[DrippingGoofball]

UK; thoughts on DGB and camn?

Why are you picking on Ojanen? Why are you picking on the bloodthirsty duo?

I'm not entirely sure I've often seen this barrage of "X is town" from DGB before whatsoever.

I have it narrowed it down to three so...

vote: Apo

[UncertainKitten]

@Hoopla: There's a post where I say I should ISO her to check something because she makes a post that changes my mind about her. I'm sure you can find it.

And, no, she's been irritating as hell and mostly been posting a lot of baiting shit that does nothing to further the town's goals. But, she at some point did something town like so it would be unwise to persue that lynch since it would, quite likely, be a mislynch.

Anyway, Sucrose has just been moronic for the most part, and scummy when she hasn't been. She claimed that my angry outbursts were somehow more likely to come from scum based on one game where a scum had an angry outburst. When I pointed out how stupidly small her sample was I never got a reply.

[DrippingGoofball]

No, I was talking about the bit I bolded. Sotty wasn't OFF the Paws wagon - she parked her vote ON her early and stayed there.

Ooops

The other reasons remain.

[Hoopla]

UK; thoughts on DGB and camn?

Why are you picking on Ojanen? Why are you picking on the bloodthirsty duo?

You're all alive. And I'm confused why you're giving Ojanen an out for no reason other than being smart. You were also saying that the scum is OFF the Paws wagon, but give town reads on cepi and chauchau (OFF it), and still don't vote there (!) having presumably narrowed it down to myself, Sucrose and Snow.

You're inconsistent, and you're not reading the game at all (as proved in my post 326) - and I don't think a town DGB would be so lazy, misinformed and apathetic like this.

[Hoopla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DrippingGoofball

I love you, but you're scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

I love you, but you're either wrong, or scum. If you're wrong, you know what to do. If you're scum, you're just doing your job.

=================

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that you're wrong.

You have a really dumb bee in your bonnet regarding Ojanen. I think it's pretty well known that I have no fear of making a 180 on a player I once found town, or once found scum. I'm not finding Ojanen scummy. Why you're picking on THAT PARTICULAR town read of mind is weird. Why aren't you picking on the others? I've got plenty of town reads that are on way flimsier grounds than my Ojanen read. Why aren't you disputing my camn read? Mu cepi read? My YOU read? Mmmmmmmm???

Furthermore, I'm not dogmatic. When I say that the scum is OFF the Paws wagon, that's a probabilistic statement, not a hard fact. It's very strange that you expect me to find all the OFF wagon players scummy. Why are you disputing my chauchau and cepi reads? Not all the off wagon players are scum. YOU ARE NOT READING THE GAME because I also said that if there is scum on the Paws wagon, that scum would be on the EARLY wagon, which includes Sotty and Apok, two of my scum reads. Snow_Bunny is one OFF the wagon.

I'm inconsistent? Go play in traffic. How many times was I scum, and saw my scumpals fret about BEING CONSISTENT. That''s the single most common fear I see in scumpals. They're careful about being consistent. And THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I see someone bring up INCONSISTENCY as a scumtell.

I don't give a rat's tutu if my iso's aren't confirming my wagon analysis, that's an artefact of scumhunting. First I did the wagon analysis, and got a first idea. Then I did the isos, and got more ideas. These ideas can and do conflict.

Your accusation that I'm not reading the game because I made an error is utterly ridiculous, and I couldn't help give you a taste of your own medicine a few paragraphs ago.

[Hoopla]

Furthermore, I'm not dogmatic. When I say that the scum is OFF the Paws wagon, that's a probabilistic statement, not a hard fact. It's very strange that you expect me to find all the OFF wagon players scummy. Why are you disputing my chauchau and cepi reads? Not all the off wagon players are scum. YOU ARE NOT READING THE GAME because I also said that if there is scum on the Paws wagon, that scum would be on the EARLY wagon, which includes Sotty and Apok, two of my scum reads. Snow_Bunny is one OFF the wagon.

Quite right - it is a probabilistic statement, and if you can narrow it down to say three players, doesn't that make those players look pretty good as scum probability-wise? I was probing there because you appear to have isolated a pretty good theory about scum being off the wagon, but then let it be trumped by something non-wagon related - whatever behavioural tell Apokalyptika oozes. This slightly clashes with your prediction that scum are off the wagon, and means one of them you musn't hold in high regard. There's a difference between inconsistency and a natural evolution of ideas and opinions, and your ideas look more inconsistent to me.

The thing with inconsistency, is it allows you to say one thing, then retroactively justify it as important or non-important - but with this approach, you can't also expect all of your ideas and beliefs to be taken seriously, because, well, how are we supposed to know how much relevance you put in one idea? Does this make sense to you?

I don't give a rat's tutu if my iso's aren't confirming my wagon analysis, that's an artefact of scumhunting. First I did the wagon analysis, and got a first idea. Then I did the isos, and got more ideas. These ideas can and do conflict.

That's fine - so which is more important? Do you believe the idea of scum being off the wagon? Or are your iso reads more relevent and worthwhile than your previous statement? Should I ignore your comment about scum being off the wagon?

Seriously, how are we supposed to know?

This is the problem with being inconsistent - if you don't update your opinions and say which is more important, it gives you a handy placeholder to resort back to if infact you do decide you want to start voting someone off the Paws wagon. You can't have both, because it just means you can do what you want and say what you want without having to face consequences.

[Sucrose]

Sorry for the inactivity, all. Thoughts as I catch up:

DGB's point about the wagon going fast because it doesn't have scum on it makes no sense. If anything the opposite is true. While I admit staying off the wagon of a really bad player like Paws

would

be a safe place for scum to hide, I'm betting there's at least 2 of them on the wagon.

No...you insinuated that I'm a mason because you think I can day talk. And then you voted for me :/

What? I can't believe more people haven't commented on this.
Are you seriously suggesting that you don't remember that scum have daytalk, even though it's been pointed out several times in the past couple pages, in the whole discussion about coaching? I don't know if this is a really klutsy attempt to appear town by ignorance, or if you've been doing some serious skimming. Either way it's really scummy.

And then I thought I was wrong and Haylen had soft-claimed for some reason, but then she states that she is not a mason.

Anyway, Sucrose has just been moronic for the most part, and scummy when she hasn't been. She claimed that my angry outbursts were somehow more likely to come from scum based on one game where a scum had an angry outburst. When I pointed out how stupidly small her sample was I never got a reply.

I've seen it to lesser extent in other games too. Most players don't get furious unless something is really bothering them, you're one of the few players who has angry outbursts at almost nothing. But like I've said, I've seen that it's your meta, so it's a null tell for you. I didn't see the point in arguing with you some more about whether getting angry is scummy, because it's obvious we're never going to agree.

There's nothing at all scummy about Fenchurch's hammer. Esurio was on the back of the Paws wagon, and she got NK'd so I'm guess scum don't think we're dumb enough to go for the idea that people late on the wagon are the scummiest. Out of all the people on the wagon, I think the first three are the most likely to be scum (because of who they are, not just because they're the first three on the wagon). And yeah, there's probably one off the wagon as well. I'd be

really

surprised if all three scum are either on or off the wagon.

[Sucrose]

Oh hey, I'm having a scumday. I had no idea I'd been here so long.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, whatever, fact remains the hat trick bugs me and while my opinions are open to revision, you'll need to show a fair amount of town intent to convince me other wise.

[Apokalyptika]

So looking at esurio's suspicions, the people she was on the whole day were myself, Sotty, and chau. In her Paws-related iso post, she said that either Sotty or I might be Paws' scumbuddy. However, she also said that if Paws flipped scum, chau looked more town to her, and that that was the best thing that she had to say about her. The fact that esurio was NK'd implies that she was along the right track in some way, which implicates chau to some degree. I don't see her as scummy, though, so I'm not sure how much validity there is; just putting it out there.

DGB, I'd love to hear why you think I'm scummy. cepi, that's a very weak case you have against me (because I didn't post a playstyle???).

I agree that Haylen's coy refusal to acknowledge scum daytalk is very incriminating, especially since she's been following the game up to this point.

Vote: Haylen

The absence of any countering town-tells makes me comfortable with my vote.

Going to sleep now, but goals for next post: Reread DGB/Sucrose/Snow until I have definite reads on them, and some light vote analysis.

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count 2.1

• Apokalyptika

  (2) (cepi - DrippingGoofball)
  
  
  chauchaudotcom
  (1) (Sotty7)
  
  
  Snow_Bunny
  (1) (camn -

  Hoopla

  )
  
  
  camn
  (1) (Haylen)
  
  
  Sucrose
  (1) (UncertainKitten)
  
  
  DrippingGoofball
  (1) (Hoopla)
  
  
  Haylen
  (1) (

  camn

  - Apokalyptika)
  
  
  Not Voting
  (5) (

  UncertainKitten

  - Ojanen - Sucrose -

  camn

  - chauchaudotcom -

  Sotty7

  -

  Hoopla

  -

  cepi

  -

  Apokalyptika

  -

  Haylen

  - Fenchurch -

  DrippingGoofball

  - Snow_Bunny)

With thirteen alive, it takes seven to lynch.

Current Deadline: Sept. 25th, 2010 at 10:30 AM (CST)

[camn]

The fact that esurio was NK'd implies that she was along the right track in some way, which implicates chau to some degree. I don't see her as scummy, though, so I'm not sure how much validity there is; just putting it out there.
.

UNVOTE
VOTE APOKALYPTIKA

Like.. are you kidding me?
This cannot stand.

[Haylen]

Are you seriously suggesting that you don't remember that scum have daytalk

No. I'm telling you. That I didn't know scum could day talk. From the start. I didn't read the roles and I don't read the open Role PM's mods put up. It's not scummy. It's scummy that you're suggesting something that is WIFOM is scummy. Tl;Dr: You're scummy for doing that.

The absence of any countering town-tells

Oh for the love of. Seriously. Scumtells and towntells are basically trying to generalise to the wider population of mafia without taking into account Individual Differences. The only thing you can be almost sure with is Meta. Which takes the person themselves into account. Do you remember in that Mad Libs game which got abandonned? Weren't you on my wagon then? Because I wasn't showing any of those stupid towntells ect? Wasn't I town? Hey, even worse, I was right.

Since when did changes in emotion = scum?

[Fenchurch]

No. I'm telling you. That I didn't know scum could day talk. From the start. I didn't read the roles and I don't read the open Role PM's mods put up. It's not scummy. It's scummy that you're suggesting something that is WIFOM is scummy. Tl;Dr: You're scummy for doing that.

Haylen, I can believe that you might not have read the role PMs at the start of the game, I expect quite a few of us didn't, but Ojanen pointed out that scum have daytalk in post 257 and that it could be used to identify townies, and in the posts after that four users congratulate her for picking up on it. Did you fail to read this whole section?

[Haylen]

Yes.

And I'm not arguing about this. It'll just take us further off track, and will get us no where cause it's all WIFOM.

[DrippingGoofball]

No...you insinuated that I'm a mason because you think I can day talk. And then you voted for me :/

What? I can't believe more people haven't commented on this.
Are you seriously suggesting that you don't remember that scum have daytalk, even though it's been pointed out several times in the past couple pages, in the whole discussion about coaching? I don't know if this is a really klutsy attempt to appear town by ignorance, or if you've been doing some serious skimming. Either way it's really scummy.

A MOST EXCELLENT POINT

[Haylen]

For the love of. It's not scummy, it's WIFOM.

[Fenchurch]

'WIFOM' is a meaningless/weak defence imo, not sure how it applies here. I don't like you refusal to talk about it Haylen, this makes it seem more like you're lying.

How much of that page did you fail to read, just posts 257 through to 262, or more besides? When I referred to Ojanen's coaching point again in post 285, did you notice, or did you just ignore it? Do you ever go back and re-read?

[chauchaudotcom]

Agh. I'm really sorry about being mia last weekend. My grandparents were visiting and school just started for me so my schedule has been rather hectic as of late. I'm in the process of catching up and will have a decent post probably later today. My apologies once again.

[DrippingGoofball]

It's not "WIFOM."

It's been mentioned earlier that the scum has daytalk, so that the "you think I'm a mason" bit sounds very much forced. I like to jokingly tell my suspects to go back and "check their QTs" personally, so I think the implication of a QT is NEVER, EVER related to masons, but 100% scum-talk.

In light of this, Haylen's comment is hugely weird.

[camn]

Yes.

And I'm not arguing about this. It'll just take us further off track, and will get us no where cause it's all WIFOM.

The real question is:
Can we count on you to help the town win?

If you are scum, then no, obv.
If you are town, but almost totally ignoring the game... then no.

Is there a third option that I am missing?

PLUS.. you distract us from my original point...
that your Day-1 play has a couple quick turnarounds that seem daytalk-influenced.
Like Apok told you to take it down a notch.
And then SnowBunny told you to get on the Paws wagon, because you wouldn't seem as suspicious as she would.
Do you deny it? Maybe it was it someone else who influenced you? You can tell us who it was.

[UncertainKitten]

Haylen's playing IA II Haylen. Trouble is she was an SK there. But, her carelessness at the least rings true to me. Whether it helps with her alignment is a completely different story. I'd have to reread her at some point and sort through a significant amount of chaff.