Mini 1021: Battousai's Mountaintnous Mountain Mafia (Over)

[Nightwolf]

...but I do want to toss a few questions out there before I forget them. Please do not respond to anything that is meant for a player other than yourself. Thank you.

. . .

@ Nexus:

Would I be interpreting your posts correctly if I say that your current theory is that scum killed wendy because he was suspicious of them? Elaborate.

I don't even know why...I guess we should try and wade through tw's posts and see who he was most suspicious of.

*will do that today*

Doesn't make sense for the mafia to kill him because of his suspicions, because there's no reason they should expect that inHim would have the same suspicions that wendy did.

/sigh

@ Prana/Nexus:

Please respond to 2).

@ Lat:

What are the numbers you've inserted in your case? I'm still working on rereading, but my own case on Prana has been building along the way and I'd like to check some of what you mention that is not part of mine so far.
Please respond to the survey as well.

[LlamaFluff]

@ LF:

Did you ever finish reading the thread before deadline hit? If so, what was the last post present at that time?

Never did. I did debate setting my alarm for right before deadline and unvoting to force no lynch though. Reading through the thread though my vote would not have moved to TW, still read as town.

Going to try and get caught up a bit tonight before I have a bunch of stuff due friday.

[LlamaFluff]

For a vote now I am meandering between fitz, PD and one of LmL/Leech (they almost cant be scum together).

Lat raises a lot of good points on PD which I like since it validated my 'something isnt quite right' gut feeling from yesterday there. I would be voting fitz apart from one post of his that really makes me think that he could be town, while everything else reads heavily scum. The one post though I just put a lot of town credit behind.

Anyone want to no lynch?

[Lateralus22]

1. I agree with what IAU said, if we lynch then it's day 4 and if we lynch town it is day three. Before Mylo.

2. I don't know, I think we should use the day for discussion but I'm also thinking about a quick no lynch. Somewhere in between should work but I don't really know.

@ Lat: What are the numbers you've inserted in your case? I'm still working on rereading, but my own case on Prana has been building along the way and I'd like to check some of what you mention that is not part of mine so far.
Please respond to the survey as well.

All numbers are from reading Prana is Iso. Something like this, (#) would mean the quote above is the Iso number the quote is for Prana. Any other numbers are referring to what Prana said in what post.

[Battousai]

Vote Count:

iamausername

-1- LoudmouthLee

PranaDevil

-1- Lateralus22

Not Voting:

ConfidAnon, havingfitz, iamausername, Leech, Llamafluff, Nexus, Nightwolf, PranaDevil

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch (before Sep 8th)!

[Nexus]

@Nightwolf if we can't get a majority near the deadline, then I'd rather a no lynch than lose two townies again.

[PranaDevil]

Still need to do a re-read, but first and foremost has to be countering this entire post because, y'know... if people are going to suspect me I'd rather they did so with actual points and not just through trying to paint me scummy over things that are obvious when you actually look at it.

Regarding the EBWOP for number 5 after, yeah it was a typo, I'd be all for a Dalt lynch after that. I'm not one for an instant "Policy Lynch" as solely focusing on those will take us straight into brown trousers time. However I feel there's a huge difference between a general policy lynch of someone caught out lying, and someone who was using their lies to try and make town believe they were new and didn't really know how to play, especially when there's evidence to prove otherwise. It smells of trying to gain sympathy points and I don't like it.

This is very interesting. Please look at "when there's evidence to prove otherwise." This comes across as complete bs to me especially after Prana defended Dalt until and after he left. Surely when one is ready to lynch scum they'd look at the fine details, or the shades of grey as Prana was willing to preach when he defended Dalt's situation of the game. This comes off as an opportunistic reason to lynch Dalt. (#18)

No idea where you're going with this one... at the start I didn't know about Dalt's history, so it came across as trying to get sympathy points. After his history was shown up, and Fitz began his tirade on him I began defending him because I had more information.

You'll note that a lot of people playing mafia have their views changed as more information appears, and a lot of my "defence" (not that I need it, but it appears required here) is quite obviously going to be "that was earlier in the day, things happened since". Or are we suggesting something we say early on should be stuck to religiously throughout the game no matter if different evidence comes to light? I'm not one for tunnelling if I can help it unless the person is acting considerably scummy (see: wendy).

Okay, I was letting Nexus and Lat have their debate, and seeing what I could get from it.

When he first posted this comment didn't bother me so much, but now later on considering he hasn't done anything with the information in this debate makes me suspicious. This looks like an excuse to not say anything, it is understandable to not interfere directly but I don't understand why he didn't voice his opinion on the matter when it was over. (#23)

Because by the end of it all I'd gained from it is possibly 2 townies arguing (I think I even said as much at one point, but I can understand not posting the pro-town Prana stuff, and only focusing on anything that doesn't show that I was pro-town). I don't feel stating "I think they're town at the moment" to be a pro-town move. Sorry to say, but if we all start announcing what we feel of all players in the game then scum get to gauge how well they're doing, and I don't like that. If everyone says a specific player is "obv. town" and they are town... they may well be night killed and we've lost someone who was strong. However, more importantly, if the entire town thinks a player is obv town, and they're scum... well the scum now know how well they're blending in. This is a negative. I'm not about to delver further into why I feel people are town, or why I felt it was two townies arguing. Just that I know that's how it felt.

FoS: Wendy Not liking the play at the moment. I don't mind coming in and looking everyone over, but I would expect there to be more scrutiny in things, and not just firing off at everything without properly paying attention to it.

It's funny because wendy was more scrutiny in things. (#37)

We're saying that in hindsight surely? No way was that play using "Scrutiny", no way no how, and I'd be surprised if you said that without laughing. wendy entered, fired off a pointless vote, then because I questioned him, fired one off in my direction and used crap from my first couple of posts to back it up... what? How is that showing scrutiny if you can't be arsed to read the thread when you replace in?

Then we spent the rest of the day with wendy arguing about wanting a no lynch day one, and how it "has" to be a no lynch on day 2 if we don't do it day one... THAT IS NOT USING SCRUTINY, that's being a waste of space. Sorry, but there was barely any scrutiny there... unless you mean that he spent time putting together a nice little excel document that did sweet fuck all for us.

Now are you going to try scum hunting or are you destined to just distract town by tunnelling on me over a completely pointless issue?

This is also funny because you at this point you don't even try to look for scum, all you do is argue with fitz and wendy.

At this point I felt one of those was scum as well, hmmm.

While wendy was targetting me because... hell how the hell should I know at this point? wendy hadn't got a clue where he was going at that point, as he was arguing early game issues, and not (by that point) actually issues that had arisen. hmmm.

Because even when he said he wasn't joking, it still felt like he was just deadpanning his joke. It was RVS, and as Leech has said, plenty of people joke around in it. I generally hate RVS in general but I do appreciate a good gag as good as the next guy (normally more so in fact) so it seemed like a good line to me.

But I'm with LmL on this one. Wendy's been pushing pointless topics since she entered, has jumped over anyone who so much as looks in her direction and given no true solid reasoning for her actions, while continuing to flog a dead horse when it had died prior to her entering the game.

unvote; vote: tomorrow wendy

Here we go, opportunistic vote at #45, even though you said you were unsure about about wendy's alignment at #42. I've got to say, this is rather odd considering you had FoS'ed wendy, normally when one does that they are suspicious of said person and believe them to be moor likely as scum right? Then why'd you wait for LmL to kick things off so you'd have full support, oh wait because it's opportunistic. (#45)

I'll keep this in mind for future reference, if you feel someone is scum, and FOS them, NEVER be the second to vote for them, Lat will be all over your case. I have nothing to defend here, I voted someone I felt was scum. How the smeg does that make me scummy?

So right now I'd be all for a Xite lynch.

I also find Adendy and Xite scummy

Aw thanks for giving us your opinion on Xite, it's good to know you thought he was scummy and that you supported his lynch! (#48 and #48)

Thanks for missing something else in that post btw.

1. What do you think about the Lateralus / Nexus situation

Overblown to be honest, looks to me like two town arguing back and forth.

What did I say just earlier in this post? Way to paint me scummy there, search for only the negative, and ignore anything that would counter your points. Nicely attempted that man.

however I'd be happy with a Xite lynch too at this stage.

Hey, you still seem to believe this! (#49)

Just one post from me afterwards? Amazing that I'd still be feeling the same way isn't it?

Actually I've not too long ago said CA is still one of my picks as likely scum. I just feel that Wendy or Xite are stronger and better lynches today.

Alright, it seems clear that if your suspicious of Xite and you willing to have him lynched you'd have an opinion on him correct? Note, it's interesting how you add in Xite as a strong and better lynch, were you lying? (#53)

No, I was being honest "at that point of the game" (This is important boyo)

Not got a strong read on Xite, and will need to do an ISO to check him, so will do that come next day phase.

Whoa dude, I thought you wanted to lynch Xite. If you were willing to lynch Xite why the PranaDevil wouldn't you have a strong read on him? Oh wait it's because both candidates were town and you wanted to pick the more obvious and more likely to be lynched for the day's lynch right? (#65)

Because by this point my brain got royally fried with a combination of running two games elsewhere which went nuts (Nexus will back me up on this, he's on that site too), and more importantly because I got stuck in a pointless argument that I didn't want to be in (and I suppose looking back I should have begun ignoring him... though I felt he was so obv.scum I did get distracted by it), with wendy. At this stage of the game I wanted wendy lynched over anything else, and it showed. All other reads went to shite because I allowed myself to get distracted.

So, by "that point in the game" I felt wendy was the strongest lynch candidate, and I'd forgotten how Xite had played previously that made me feel he was scummy, and no longer had the time to properly go back and give a full read on the situation. Does that make me scummy? No. It means I have stuff that needs doing elsewhere (like going to the doctor, getting X Rays done etc. Not that it should make a difference, but you do seem to feel that being busy elsewhere somehow means "don't want to do it" which is bullshite of the greatest amount).

As for Xite, I don't know, most of the recent game has been wendy distracting the fuck outta me because I've been stuck arguing the second most stupid and ridiculous argument I've ever been a part of on this site (and 3rd overall).

How can you not know about Xite? YOU WANTED TO LYNCH HIM. START SCUM HUNTING (#68)

See above.

Xite I may not have a strong read one way or the other

DAMN IT PRANA START SCUM HUNTING.

If anything this quote and the last is proof that you're ok with lynching people you don't have strong reads on.

Now lets look back to my earlier suggestion, how convenient is it that you didn't have time to do an Iso read on Xite. Now how much better is that that you didn't do so in order to get a strong read on him when you did have the time, did I mention that you wanted to lynch him? If you did, you might not have had to lie to us. (#68)

Hold it! That bold bit, how is it? I've chosen at this point NOT to vote Xite. You've also taken this one COMPLETELY out of context to further your push for me. I go on to say that "the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is"

Earlier in the game Xite felt scummy to me. By this point in the game he feels decidedly less so, and so I couldn't say outright one way or the other, but wendy had been proving himself to be useless to town at best, and blatantly obviously scummy at worst.

But my first views are that focusing on who wendy was suspicious of is pointless because it was inHim entering the game and he may have had a totally different view on how things are.

How convenient is it that Wendy was suspicious of you at one point, now tell me, why are you indecisive and a liar? (#78)

It's convenient wendy was suspicious over me early on for zero reason? Or it's convenient we had a back and forth because wendy was being completely worthless to us and distracting town (successfully it would seem in my case)? Now tell me, why are you deliberately ignoring posts and facts that would derail your case?

Opinions change, based on a variety of factors. I appreciate you pointing things out, but why didn't you bring this up yesterday when it would have been useful, as opposed to wait until the lynch last night had happened, and we return to the day phase only to then try and make out I'm scummy despite the fact that everything you brought up can be argued away quite simply just by taking a second to think about things. Namely where they are in the game, and the context of what happened.

I appreciate that the Xite thing does indeed come across scummy (Hell, I'd have called me out on it too), but I see absolutely nothing else you can call bad play unless you count getting distracted by other bad play of course.

Had Xite not been given the noose yesterday I'd have gone back over my thoughts about him today, and likely either swung one way or the other, but what you are saying is that when I lost track of where I stood on Xite due to allowing myself to be distracted I SHOULD have lied and said I found him scummy or something.

I'd rather back down on a case because I've lost track of it and didn't have time to properly go over it, than risk lynching someone that I no longer have had a case on through not following them. How is that scummy? Scummy would have been to continue to push my lynch on Xite without having a case on him. The fact I backed off shows I wasn't ready to lynch anyone at all, and only lynch those I felt that were scummy by that point.

[havingfitz]

RL getting in the way a bit. Will try to catch up sometime this evening.

[Battousai]

LoudmouthLee has been prodded! Remember, rules dictate you post at least once every 48hrs. You can just post "monkey butt" or anything else, as long as you continue posting every 48hrs.

[Lateralus22]

No idea where you're going with this one... at the start I didn't know about Dalt's history, so it came across as trying to get sympathy points. After his history was shown up, and Fitz began his tirade on him I began defending him because I had more information.

This is not true. You made that post and cited that there was evidence against Dalt at post #143. Fitz posted his evidence against Dalt on post #99. How can you say "Oh there's evidence against Dalt" when you can't even be bothered to read it yourself. You saw fitz's post and figured that would get Dalt lynched, you didn't investigate further because that isn't required in your scum win condition.

You'll note that a lot of people playing mafia have their views changed as more information appears, and a lot of my "defence" (not that I need it, but it appears required here) is quite obviously going to be "that was earlier in the day, things happened since". Or are we suggesting something we say early on should be stuck to religiously throughout the game no matter if different evidence comes to light? I'm not one for tunnelling if I can help it unless the person is acting considerably scummy (see: wendy).

Nothing wrong with changing your opinion, it's what you did and how you did that that looks scummy.

Because by the end of it all I'd gained from it is possibly 2 townies arguing (I think I even said as much at one point, but I can understand not posting the pro-town Prana stuff, and only focusing on anything that doesn't show that I was pro-town).

Aww now you're being deflective, how nice. If you want to talk about how you're so pro - town why don't you bring up these points? I don't see them, around 50% of your posts are useless, (I'm generalizing, I notice that around post #30 and until now Prana doesn't really do any good scum hunting) Now seeing how I think so, show me how you're pro town.

We're saying that in hindsight surely? No way was that play using "Scrutiny", no way no how, and I'd be surprised if you said that without laughing. wendy entered, fired off a pointless vote, then because I questioned him, fired one off in my direction and used crap from my first couple of posts to back it up... what? How is that showing scrutiny if you can't be arsed to read the thread when you replace in?

Then we spent the rest of the day with wendy arguing about wanting a no lynch day one, and how it "has" to be a no lynch on day 2 if we don't do it day one... THAT IS NOT USING SCRUTINY, that's being a waste of space. Sorry, but there was barely any scrutiny there... unless you mean that he spent time putting together a nice little excel document that did sweet fuck all for us.

Wendy questioned and pointed out things he thought was scummy. He almost got lynched Day 1 because you can't comprehend him, he had every reason to be mad. Wendy did more than putting together a nice excel document (which btw he said would be good after two flips so why not take a look at it now) he also gave a lot of meta links, none of which you probably haven't looked at. You should though, they're good reads.

At this point I felt one of those was scum as well, hmmm.

It's straight up arguing, I see no hunting other than waving off everything Wendy did, which isn't hunting.

While wendy was targetting me because... hell how the hell should I know at this point? wendy hadn't got a clue where he was going at that point, as he was arguing early game issues, and not (by that point) actually issues that had arisen. hmmm.

Do you honestly have no idea why Wendy was suspicious of you? Go back and read his posts, tell me if you still can't understand and I'll try to explain.

I'll keep this in mind for future reference, if you feel someone is scum, and FOS them, NEVER be the second to vote for them, Lat will be all over your case. I have nothing to defend here, I voted someone I felt was scum. How the smeg does that make me scummy?

Good, look at a point I make on how your scummy then ask a question except you completely leave out the whole point. Loving the deflective you're showing Prana.

Looking back at my case I think I made a little mistake, Wendy did post in between Prana's FoS and vote. That doesn't change my view on his vote being oppertunistic as he does state after his FoS in post #42 that he's unsure about Wendy being scum. Wendy had only made one post and I don't think that post was what made Prana decide to vote Wendy. Wendy was pretty much the same player as he was when Prana said he was unsure of if wendy was scum or not, it looks like he only wanted to vote him when he knew he would have other people to support his vote.

Thanks for missing something else in that post btw.

Great, now what does this do with anything? The one liner you posted is hardly a good analysis and this information wasn't even given until I asked you.

What did I say just earlier in this post? Way to paint me scummy there, search for only the negative, and ignore anything that would counter your points. Nicely attempted that man.

Still wondering what this has to do with anything, I'm unsure on what you're actually speaking about.

Just one post from me afterwards? Amazing that I'd still be feeling the same way isn't it?

This shows that you had believed in an Xite lynch and him being scummy for multiple posts. Makes less sense for you to suddenly forget everything when you've had a similar belief of a user for more than one post.

No, I was being honest "at that point of the game" (This is important boyo)

How strange, that you would be willing to lynch someone you didn't have a strong read on. Only to forget about your earlier thoughts you had on him later when it suited your needs.

Because by this point my brain got royally fried with a combination of running two games elsewhere which went nuts (Nexus will back me up on this, he's on that site too), and more importantly because I got stuck in a pointless argument that I didn't want to be in (and I suppose looking back I should have begun ignoring him... though I felt he was so obv.scum I did get distracted by it), with wendy. At this stage of the game I wanted wendy lynched over anything else, and it showed. All other reads went to shite because I allowed myself to get distracted.

Are you seriously trying to tell me you forgot? Are you freaked kidding me?

So, by "that point in the game" I felt wendy was the strongest lynch candidate, and I'd forgotten how Xite had played previously that made me feel he was scummy, and no longer had the time to properly go back and give a full read on the situation. Does that make me scummy? No. It means I have stuff that needs doing elsewhere (like going to the doctor, getting X Rays done etc. Not that it should make a difference, but you do seem to feel that being busy elsewhere somehow means "don't want to do it" which is bullshite of the greatest amount).

Ugh, how you can not have a strong read on someone at post #65 when you were willing to lynch them post #48? It's like you're saying the more information you got about Xite it made it harder to get a strong read on him.

You wanted to lynch Xite at post #48 so why didn't you do an Iso on him then? Why didn't you do it later on? It's ok to be busy, however it's not ok to lynch someone when you don't have strong reads on them. I think you would agree to this.

Hold it! That bold bit, how is it? I've chosen at this point NOT to vote Xite. You've also taken this one COMPLETELY out of context to further your push for me. I go on to say that "the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is"

That bold bit is a fact that anyone can see by reading this thread, I don't know how you can think otherwise. Great, how does not voting him prove you're innocent? You clearly said you wanted him to be lynched.

At post #48 you said you wanted to lynch Xite.

At post #65 you said you didn't have a strong read on Xite.

This suggests that at post #48 when you were willing to lynch Xite that you didn't have a strong read on him.

It's not out of context, this is a fact. The quote you're using as a defense is just something you've added on so you could lynch wendy that day. I hardly see how it proves you're innocent, if anything this continues to further prove my point.

"the fact that he's not done anything so overtly scummy that I was instantly drawn to it tells me he's not the best lynch for the day and that wendy is" post (#68)

So right now I'd be all for a Xite lynch. (#48)

This suggests that even though Xite hasn't done anything scummy you were willing to lynch him

Earlier in the game Xite felt scummy to me. By this point in the game he feels decidedly less so, and so I couldn't say outright one way or the other, but wendy had been proving himself to be useless to town at best, and blatantly obviously scummy at worst.

So instead of stating your opinion had changed and that Xite's posts (later on?) had changed your views on him you decided to forget everything that happened, is that right?

It's convenient wendy was suspicious over me early on for zero reason? Or it's convenient we had a back and forth because wendy was being completely worthless to us and distracting town (successfully it would seem in my case)? Now tell me, why are you deliberately ignoring posts and facts that would derail your case?

It's convenient because this is a way for you to try and get everyone away from looking at you without saying it. Why don't you show me the facts I've been ignoring? I really want to see them.

Opinions change, based on a variety of factors. I appreciate you pointing things out, but why didn't you bring this up yesterday when it would have been useful, as opposed to wait until the lynch last night had happened, and we return to the day phase only to then try and make out I'm scummy despite the fact that everything you brought up can be argued away quite simply just by taking a second to think about things. Namely where they are in the game, and the context of what happened.

I didn't have all the information that I had posted against you before Wendy was lynched. Everything I said can't be argued away, and they are in the context of the game. If I am making a mistake don't just tell me show me.

I appreciate that the Xite thing does indeed come across scummy (Hell, I'd have called me out on it too), but I see absolutely nothing else you can call bad play unless you count getting distracted by other bad play of course.

You should read my post again.

- Oppertunistic voting and lyching
- Inconsistent views
- Willing to lynch people when you don't have a strong read on them.
- Lying is most likely somewhere in here, along with the inconsistent views

Had Xite not been given the noose yesterday I'd have gone back over my thoughts about him today, and likely either swung one way or the other, but what you are saying is that when I lost track of where I stood on Xite due to allowing myself to be distracted I SHOULD have lied and said I found him scummy or something.

I'm not saying you should have lied, I am saying you are lying.

I'd rather back down on a case because I've lost track of it and didn't have time to properly go over it, than risk lynching someone that I no longer have had a case on through not following them. How is that scummy? Scummy would have been to continue to push my lynch on Xite without having a case on him. The fact I backed off shows I wasn't ready to lynch anyone at all, and only lynch those I felt that were scummy by that point.

You didn't just back down from Xite, you completely forgot about him and attacked Wendy. What case did you have exactly, did you have any of it saved or are you lying about having a case against him? Yes it is scummy to push on someone without a case, but when you backed off that contradicted your earlier beliefs in wanting to lynch Xite.

You know what else is great? You mention how the town shouldn't be distracted and scum hunt but you continue to let yourself do so to make yourself look like you're active and make it look like you're scum hunting when you're not. It's even better that my case against you will be an excuse not to do any scum hunting right now. If you do happen to be town, you've screwed us over for the day and I'd really like you to start some scum hunting on the very slight chance you aren't scum.

Now where is everyone else? Let's get some more votes on Prana and look for his partner.

[LoudmouthLee]

I do apologize. I haven't had the time for a reread, and I don't like posting "Hey, I'm here. Monkey Butt."

I will have a little bit of time tonight, so expect a post within the next 2-3 hours. Sorry for the delay, guys. Hope I haven't slowed the game at all.

[LoudmouthLee]

My first thought is that people on the Xite wagon would be more likely to kill wendy here, because they'd be taking suspicion after he flipped town, but with wendy flipping town too, the suspicion gets spread around to everyone. But that's still pretty dumb, because clearly the person on the Xite wagon who'd take the most suspicion would be wendy, so they could achieve the same thing by getting him lynched today instead, which would free up their night kill for someone harder to lynch.

My next thought is that it has something to do with his replacement; either someone who is familiar with inHim and thinks he's a particularly great town player, or just someone who likes the way the flow of suspicion has been headed and doesn't want to introduce an unknown element that might disrupt it. So that would suggest someone who's been getting off easy so far.

This quote sticks out for me for my reason that I slightly distrust you. I'll get to that in a hot minute. But first...

Why didn't you mention this at the time I said it?

A major problem I have with mafia, in general, is complete fixation. When I think someone is scum for sure, I get fixated on getting them lynched. Sometimes, I'm wrong. In this case, you weren't on my radar, but I wrote the post number down in my notebook just to re-reference. When Xite flipped town, I marked down every person on the Xite wagon, and then I looked at the information of everyone on that wagon. That's when that post really stuck out on me.

As for your WIFOM post to begin with (that Leech "agrees with", which gives me greater pause), your rationale behind why TW was killed seems disingenuous. My biggest concern is to look at the following things:

Oh yeah, and BTW, Nightwolf, my read on Xite being town was purely gut and I didn't like any of the cases put against him, especially the "purposeful mod-kill" post.

1) My personal view on why TW was killed was to "show" the town that the mafia could have been on either bandwagon. Make no mistake about it... Xite was a better townie, from top to bottom, than TW. Getting him lynched was more important than getting TW lynched. But the way Xite was lynched may have given the mafia pause.

I'm gonna bold this for effect.

My scumsenses tell me that both mafia members were on the Xite wagon.

Looking at this game, I think that the TW kill was to throw the scent off of the Xite wagon, since "both wagons were equally wrong."

Here's the ending vote count.

Xite91 -6- Lateralus22, Nightwolf, Leech, iamausername, tomorrow wendy, llamafluff
tomorrow wendy -5- Xite91, LoudmouthLee, PranaDevil, havingfitz, Nexus

Now...

Obviously, Xite and TW were voting each other out of necessity. We can scratch each of them out. HF really pressed for the lynch of Dalt from the beginning. To me, that would be a very dangerous scum move to a townie as such. I am getting, now, a town-feel from him. The same, shockingly, goes to Lateralus. His bravado in getting Xite lynched does not seem like a scum move. Perhaps I'm being way to general here... but i'm getting pro-town vibes there, too.

Leaving myself off this list and the people whom I think are most pro-town, IMHO, the scum team must be a part of Nightwolf (whom I have expressed suspicions before), Leech (his "agreement" with Iam makes me very uncomfortable), Iam (As referenced before... the "i'm a nightkill" and his "magical town read" on Adel, couple that with the semi-lurker CA bus that was tried...), Llama (Swingvote could be seen as scummy. I really need to do a PBPA on him) on the Xite wagon, and Prana (I'm not sold on the Prana case at this point. I think he defended himself well enough for me right now.) and Nexus (who got eerily quiet after his wagon).

I can't shake the feeling that IAM's scum right now.

[Nexus]

After my wagon died down?

I didn't get "eerily quiet." I posted my reasons as to why I thought tw was scum, and then decided not to get involved in the massive argument that wasn't really helping anything but just distracting everyone and being lame. I posted whenever I wanted to contribute to the discussion.

CA: 32 posts
havingfitz: 40 posts
iam: 28 posts
Lateralus: 44 posts
Leech: 23 posts
Llamafluff: 17 posts
LmL: 53 posts
Nexus: 62 posts
Nightwolf: 19 posts
Prana: 74 posts
tw: 105 posts
Xite: 106 posts

Now, the last vote on my wagon was removed by the 15th of August. Now, I was v/LA until the 18th of August. So, since the 18th of August, I've made 26 posts. How is that me being quiet since my wagon died down? I've answered any and all questions put to me, I analysed CA, Xite and TW when I thought they were the scummiest, and I then isoed all of tw's posts after the lynch. So, how is that me being quiet? Especially when since my wagon died down, I've still made more posts the Llamafluff and Leech, and almost as many posts as iam and CA have altogether?

I realise you haven't really put any suspicion on me as such, but I thought I should at least defend the "eerily quiet" after my wagon thing. Of course I'm going to post slightly less when the heat is off, but I've made between 35-40% of my posts since the wagon died down, so that's not "eerily quiet."

[LoudmouthLee]

Nexus, I more meant that I found you were posting not as much content, not number of posts. I actually, again, find your reaction overdefensive.. especially since I did say...

(A) I thought both scum members were on the xite wagon... you weren't.
And (b) I made little asides to everyone I didn't get a complete protown read on.

In other words, you've piqued my interest.

FoS: Nexus

[PranaDevil]

No idea where you're going with this one... at the start I didn't know about Dalt's history, so it came across as trying to get sympathy points. After his history was shown up, and Fitz began his tirade on him I began defending him because I had more information.

This is not true. You made that post and cited that there was evidence against Dalt at post #143. Fitz posted his evidence against Dalt on post #99. How can you say "Oh there's evidence against Dalt" when you can't even be bothered to read it yourself. You saw fitz's post and figured that would get Dalt lynched, you didn't investigate further because that isn't required in your scum win condition.

Correct, I figured I didn't need to go check meta at that time (And I hate, with a passion, meta arguments anyway, people's gameplay can change between games and not just because they're town or scum. So meta arguments are null and void to me, the closest I'll come to "meta" would be "I've played with that guy a few times and know he's good at scum hunting").

It was only after it was proven that Dalt had been on here once before, and then had replaced out, that I began defending him. But that's only if you "can be bothered to read it yourself" of course.

Because by the end of it all I'd gained from it is possibly 2 townies arguing (I think I even said as much at one point, but I can understand not posting the pro-town Prana stuff, and only focusing on anything that doesn't show that I was pro-town).

Aww now you're being deflective, how nice. If you want to talk about how you're so pro - town why don't you bring up these points? I don't see them, around 50% of your posts are useless, (I'm generalizing, I notice that around post #30 and until now Prana doesn't really do any good scum hunting) Now seeing how I think so, show me how you're pro town.

I felt wendy was scum, had suspicions early on about Xite, and had suspicions about Fitz because of the Dalt wagon, though I'll readily admit that Day 1 was a lot of "Stop pushing for the no lynch" and "Stop harping on about Dalt's so called lies" because while I'm all for pushing people and getting information out of them, I'm decidedly against trying to paint someone as scummy for something that can be explained with a bit of thought, and against trying to demand someone's opinion is right above all else, especially when they are trying to claim that by saying one thing, I'm saying something completely different, more so when I have stated that's not the case in the past (in regards to "No lynching day 1 means you want to no lynch day 2" which was most of what wendy was spouting).

We're saying that in hindsight surely? No way was that play using "Scrutiny", no way no how, and I'd be surprised if you said that without laughing. wendy entered, fired off a pointless vote, then because I questioned him, fired one off in my direction and used crap from my first couple of posts to back it up... what? How is that showing scrutiny if you can't be arsed to read the thread when you replace in?

Then we spent the rest of the day with wendy arguing about wanting a no lynch day one, and how it "has" to be a no lynch on day 2 if we don't do it day one... THAT IS NOT USING SCRUTINY, that's being a waste of space. Sorry, but there was barely any scrutiny there... unless you mean that he spent time putting together a nice little excel document that did sweet fuck all for us.

Wendy questioned and pointed out things he thought was scummy. He almost got lynched Day 1 because you can't comprehend him, he had every reason to be mad. Wendy did more than putting together a nice excel document (which btw he said would be good after two flips so why not take a look at it now) he also gave a lot of meta links, none of which you probably haven't looked at. You should though, they're good reads.

"Because you can't comprehend him"? No, I comprehended him perfectly well. "We should no lynch, and I'll spend the entire day arguing that point and pushing that argument onto others if given a chance", which, I'll note, he did. Sorry, but Day 1 is often a crap shoot at the best of times, all wendy did was make it even more so because by being town he was pushing something that had already been stated wasn't happening repeatedly by the majority of people. That's not being a good scum hunter in the slightest.

As for the meta links? See above, not only am I not going to go using meta (because I hate it) but I'm not about to spend hours of my day reading old bygone games, those who want to, hey, that's fine, but don't go trying to make out it makes me scummy for choosing not to do so. It's something I've never done, and something I'll never do in the future either.

While wendy was targetting me because... hell how the hell should I know at this point? wendy hadn't got a clue where he was going at that point, as he was arguing early game issues, and not (by that point) actually issues that had arisen. hmmm.

Do you honestly have no idea why Wendy was suspicious of you? Go back and read his posts, tell me if you still can't understand and I'll try to explain.

Go on, explain. When wendy was suspicious of me the ONLY things being pointed out was that I prevented an early gambit that... I had no idea about at all. So tell me, how is that scummy? Apparently it was my fault we didn't catch scum out with someone elses gambit, a gambit I felt was a joke... I'm sorry, but if that's the scrutiny that we're basing wendy's play on, I think it leaves a lot to be desired.

I'll keep this in mind for future reference, if you feel someone is scum, and FOS them, NEVER be the second to vote for them, Lat will be all over your case. I have nothing to defend here, I voted someone I felt was scum. How the smeg does that make me scummy?

Good, look at a point I make on how your scummy then ask a question except you completely leave out the whole point. Loving the deflective you're showing Prana.

Looking back at my case I think I made a little mistake, Wendy did post in between Prana's FoS and vote. That doesn't change my view on his vote being oppertunistic as he does state after his FoS in post #42 that he's unsure about Wendy being scum. Wendy had only made one post and I don't think that post was what made Prana decide to vote Wendy. Wendy was pretty much the same player as he was when Prana said he was unsure of if wendy was scum or not, it looks like he only wanted to vote him when he knew he would have other people to support his vote.[/quote]
That's just making stuff up to fit your case and you know it. You're stating what my thought process was, when you have no idea what my thought process was.

What my view point was, is that wendy was acting scummy as hell, and after thinking about it, he deserved a vote more than a FoS. Done deal. You're either stretching things to fit your opinion of me as being scum, or you are scum deliberately trying to paint me as scum. But either way this one was a huge, massive stretch to get the answer you're getting.

Thanks for missing something else in that post btw.

Great, now what does this do with anything? The one liner you posted is hardly a good analysis and this information wasn't even given until I asked you.

Except I stated earlier in my last post why I didn't give an analysis or any information prior to you asking. I see absolutely ZERO reason why I should say "X and Y appear pro-town in my eyes" it benefits the scum a whole lot more than it benefits the town. Neither of you looked likely to be lynched, and thus voicing my opinion that, at that point, I felt you were both town arguing, would have helped nobody but scum. Why are you deliberately ignoring my point about that?

What did I say just earlier in this post? Way to paint me scummy there, search for only the negative, and ignore anything that would counter your points. Nicely attempted that man.

Still wondering what this has to do with anything, I'm unsure on what you're actually speaking about.

I was referencing that earlier in my previous post I had stated that I said you and Nexus appeared pro-town, and that I had said so later. And I'd also explained why I didn't mention it. I note again you refused to acknowledge that fact though, as though announcing who the pro-town seeming players are somehow helps us catch scum.

No, I was being honest "at that point of the game" (This is important boyo)

How strange, that you would be willing to lynch someone you didn't have a strong read on. Only to forget about your earlier thoughts you had on him later when it suited your needs.

Hold up here. You're saying I'm scummy because my feelings on someone changed from "I think he's scum" to "Not really got an opinion"? Seriously? Other people stood out more to me (CA, wendy, Fitz) to the point that I didn't have as strong of a read on Xite as I did on those three.
In fact... this entire Xite thing is you suggesting that because I ORIGINALLY said he felt like likely scum early on, that I have to retain that thought for the REMAINDER of the game, is that what we are suggesting here? Because if it is I severely think you need to rethink about how you play this game.

Someone who appears scummy could even continue to appear scummy, but if others appeared scummier you would rather lynch them. In this case Xite slipped from my radar after a short while at the same time I became more and more suspicious of wendy. It stands to reason I would focus more of my attention (especially closing in on the end of the first day, which we were) on getting the person I feel is scum lynched.

I also point out that when my feelings on Xite slipped. I STOPPED trying to lynch him. I note this again because, once more, you are refusing to pick up on it. I never once tried to lynch someone who I "didn't have a strong read on" because at that stage of the game I had a stronger read on Xite than I did on others come later on. I would hope you are going to continue attacking anyone who placed a vote on someone and has since stated that they don't have a solid read one way or another.

It was day 1, strong reads are few and far between that day, and it's generally something stupid that gets pulled up on. Or because someone was playing stupidly (see: wendy), expecting everyone who votes on day 1 to have a super strong read is ridiculous.

So instead of stating your opinion had changed and that Xite's posts (later on?) had changed your views on him you decided to forget everything that happened, is that right?

No, early game he still felt somewhat scummy, by the time wendy had gone nuts, Xite hadn't posted anything that I could see (standing out at least) overtly scummy. However it's also true I was focusing my attention on wendy more than most by this point, however I had planned to do a full read on Xite when we returned, I've stated this previously as well (before we even went to night phase no less), and something may have stood out more then, I don't know, I'm not about to go wasting my time searching Xite's posts at the moment when he got lynched. Thus rather than "forgetting everything from before" which is just stupid, it was simply that I was no longer paying as close attention to Xite, which meant he felt less scummy to me after that point, and as I had wound up not paying extra attention to his posts because I was having a lot (and yes, likely too much, I admit) of back and forth with wendy. You are suggesting I should have lied and said I felt Xite was scummy when I didn't feel he was by this point. By telling the truth you are claiming I am lying, yet by what you are saying, you are suggesting I should have lied. This makes no sense!

I appreciate that the Xite thing does indeed come across scummy (Hell, I'd have called me out on it too), but I see absolutely nothing else you can call bad play unless you count getting distracted by other bad play of course.

You should read my post again.

- Oppertunistic voting and lyching
- Inconsistent views
- Willing to lynch people when you don't have a strong read on them.
- Lying is most likely somewhere in here, along with the inconsistent views

Okay... let's see those:

1 - How? Show me my "opportunistic voting and lynching". I've not once been "opportunistic" in my voting, I voted wendy after only ONE vote had gone on him, one, not 3 or 4 which would be opportunistic, a single lone vote. I voted because I found wendy scummy. Done deal.

2 - Inconsistant views... we're back to the Xite thing again aren't we? That's the only legitimate thing I'll accept, but that's due to focusing on wendy over Xite, which is bad play on my part, not scummy play on my part. There's a difference.

3 - Willing to lynch... ah bollocks, this crap thing again, read up above, I've already answered it, and you're just wrong and talking out your ass to make your story fit, it's the old case of "say something enough times and people will believe it" routine that has been used for years.

4 - Lying... yeah... not done so yet, however you're on my case because I dared to be honest.

You didn't just back down from Xite, you completely forgot about him and attacked Wendy. What case did you have exactly, did you have any of it saved or are you lying about having a case against him? Yes it is scummy to push on someone without a case, but when you backed off that contradicted your earlier beliefs in wanting to lynch Xite.

So I'm now scummy because I don't have a notepad file, or an excel file keeping tabs of absolutely everything that goes on? Seriously?! I'm supposed to store and save tons of data just to play this game? If you do that, fine, well done for you, but don't expect everyone else who plays the game to do the same. Sorry for not being such an uber scum hunter like yourself.

You know what else is great? You mention how the town shouldn't be distracted and scum hunt but you continue to let yourself do so to make yourself look like you're active and make it look like you're scum hunting when you're not. It's even better that my case against you will be an excuse not to do any scum hunting right now. If you do happen to be town, you've screwed us over for the day and I'd really like you to start some scum hunting on the very slight chance you aren't scum.

No, I admit I got distracted, but it had nothing to do with "looking active", and everything to do with "I honestly thought wendy was scum trying to distract town", unfortunately I wound up distracted by that as a whole, but I'm still going to state wendy's play was, at best, anti-town, and at worst, scummy. Even if he did flip town.

Now where is everyone else? Let's get some more votes on Prana and look for his partner.

I love this line, you may as well be saying, "Hey, what's everyone else doing? I'm going to keep tunnelling on Prana so come join me."

[LoudmouthLee]

I think the Xite wagon is town.

Llama, do you still believe that the scum would rather lynch TW than Xite, being that they were both town?

How do you feel about that wagon now?

[LlamaFluff]

I think the Xite wagon is town.

Llama, do you still believe that the scum would rather lynch TW than Xite, being that they were both town?

How do you feel about that wagon now?

Yes I do think that scum would be happier lynching TW then Xite. I still like that wagon a whole lot more then the TW wagon. Very pressed for time right now, will get in a bigger post tomorrow sometime.

[Leech]

Sorry guys, I've been extremely busy recently. I'll get a post out as soon as I can (most likely tomorrow afternoon-evening.)

[iamausername]

words

So, essentially, you're saying that Adel was so goddamn scummy that there is no possible way that any real townie would read him as town, and in fact so goddamn scummy that scum would

actively campaign against his lynch

. And then kill him anyway at night. That makes sense.

Because if they were both on the Xite wagon, it's not just a case of "they preferred to keep Adel alive" (and again, they killed him, so they obviously didn't want to keep him alive that badly) - when Adel was pulling his self-voting shenanigans, there pretty much was no Xite wagon. It took some serious effort on the part of several players to prevent that wagon from reaching a lynch. Even given your ridiculously wrong opinion about Adel's ability as a player, I struggle to see how you can honestly think that nobody on his wagon was scum.

X = Scum on Xite wagon
T = Scum on tomorrow wendy wagon
C = Scum on neither wagon, is ConfidAnon.

I think probably XT > TC > TT >>> XC > XX.

Still need to finish rereading, but I think I ought to put a vote out somewhere, so

VOTE: Leech

[Battousai]

Nightwolf has been prodded!

[havingfitz]

Monkey butt.

[havingfitz]

@ fitz:

Is your suspicion of LF based solely on Kor's play? If not, what do you find scummy from LF's play so far?

Yes. His play since he joined the game hasn't been that scummy but I think he is a good player (as I think I mentioned already) who could overcome the perception of some that Korashk was scum. I don't think he is my main target today but I have some catching up to do before I say who that main target is.

Sorry for the lack of posts lately...RL is kicking my arse atm. Not planning to replace out but I definitely won't be an overposter.

[Lateralus22]

It was only after it was proven that Dalt had been on here once before, and then had replaced out, that I began defending him. But that's only if you "can be bothered to read it yourself" of course.

Why would you ever use evidence against someone when you don't know what the evidence is, it's like you're saying what you did was ok.

"Because you can't comprehend him"? No, I comprehended him perfectly well. "We should no lynch, and I'll spend the entire day arguing that point and pushing that argument onto others if given a chance", which, I'll note, he did. Sorry, but Day 1 is often a crap shoot at the best of times, all wendy did was make it even more so because by being town he was pushing something that had already been stated wasn't happening repeatedly by the majority of people. That's not being a good scum hunter in the slightest.

As for the meta links? See above, not only am I not going to go using meta (because I hate it) but I'm not about to spend hours of my day reading old bygone games, those who want to, hey, that's fine, but don't go trying to make out it makes me scummy for choosing not to do so. It's something I've never done, and something I'll never do in the future either.

Sigh… you really should learn to read behind the lines. The meta links were pretty good information, and while we're on the topic would you like to provide us a few of your games as both town and scum?

Go on, explain. When wendy was suspicious of me the ONLY things being pointed out was that I prevented an early gambit that... I had no idea about at all. So tell me, how is that scummy? Apparently it was my fault we didn't catch scum out with someone elses gambit, a gambit I felt was a joke... I'm sorry, but if that's the scrutiny that we're basing wendy's play on, I think it leaves a lot to be desired.

I really do hope you're scum now, this is going to waste a bit of my time.

Wendy was a pretty awesome guy. Making assumptions is part of any investigation so let's make a few.

Rules state you play to your win con right? Let's assume he was doing so. Keep in mind everything he did he had a town mindset.

Now let's also assume he's someone who plays mafia for fun, he's likes to mess with all of us. First half of his posts were more towards questioning why people did certain things while the second half was more on game theory. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often. What I'm trying to say is that a lot of Wendy's actions were just to get reactions, everything else people did not understand was Wendy was saying. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often.

Wendy Iso #36 is a fantastic example of both. In this post it's a clear attempt to buddy with me, to see what my reaction would be. He also gets to see Nexus's reactions plus others seeing this post would be wondering what Wendy was thinking since this Nexus suspicion is new and respond if they wanted to. This would bring out information.

Iso #37 is just him screwing with all of us and making fun of Xite. That's why everything he had listed is reasoned as Gut, because we all know how Xite likes to use Gut for everything.

Iso #39 Wendy is demonstrating how to prove a random vote. Something Korash k had done very early in the game but does not give evidence that makes it certain. He also gives a witty comment, again to let us know he's joking and screwing with us.

Rather than waste a bunch of brain resources, I did the equivalent of flipping a coin, and we got to share a teaching moment as a side benefit.

Does no one else smile when they read this post?

Wendy's excel sheet will be useful in the future, even a little bit now. Even though we all agree to this let's stop bashing him for making the future days easier for us.

Iso #65 Wendy makes another joke, again did no one think was funny?

LmL - Why does everyone have to be freaken Professor Mafia?
Wendy - Actually I am Professor freaking mafia, "shows award"

This isn't really contributing much to scum hunting of course, I'm just trying to show that there were reasons for Wendy's posts. That being said it's interesting to note how LmL said Wendy was claiming to be a great scum hunter when he was claiming to be great at scum.

Iso #73 states that his self vote and no lynch were to get over eager scum. Wasn't really a bad idea as he had the disguise of a newbie, and with many people on him the scum might have gone after him.

Iso #76 Here's the meta report. It's too bad Xite was town, but regardless this was still useful. There's more than just links to Xite though.

Prana, if someone was to use meta against you what kind of accusations do you believe you would be faced against?

Iso #102 Gets mad at Prana, this I think is the real point where he explodes. It's understandable that someone would get mad if they constantly had to repeat themselves.

Now you're probably wondering what anything had to do with you, first off Wendy starts questioning why you weren't of the gambit. It is strange that you understood the setup you still did not go on with the gambit. Even if you did think he was joking why didn't you claim ahead anyway?

There are multiple possible answers for this, the one Wendy probably thought of

Scum - Ha ha IAU I see through your gambit and it won't work!

Also you not being a part of it hurts the chance for it to work at all which could save your partner. The problem is proving this is very hard, if not possible so he questioned you find out information.

That's just making stuff up to fit your case and you know it. You're stating what my thought process was, when you have no idea what my thought process was.

What my view point was, is that wendy was acting scummy as hell, and after thinking about it, he deserved a vote more than a FoS. Done deal. You're either stretching things to fit your opinion of me as being scum, or you are scum deliberately trying to paint me as scum. But either way this one was a huge, massive stretch to get the answer you're getting.

Is it?

Did you just randomly decide, hey Wendy's scummy I'll vote him?
What factors affected your choice?
Was Wendy's post between your FoS and vote important in making your vote?
Was there any new evidence brought up against Wendy that made you decide to vote against him?
Did others opinions have any affects on your vote for Wendy?

Except I stated earlier in my last post why I didn't give an analysis or any information prior to you asking. I see absolutely ZERO reason why I should say "X and Y appear pro-town in my eyes" it benefits the scum a whole lot more than it benefits the town. Neither of you looked likely to be lynched, and thus voicing my opinion that, at that point, I felt you were both town arguing, would have helped nobody but scum. Why are you deliberately ignoring my point about that?

Was there any holes in my reasoning, what about Wendy's defense? If you do make an analysis would it not provide content for the town to use in order to find scum?

I was referencing that earlier in my previous post I had stated that I said you and Nexus appeared pro-town, and that I had said so later. And I'd also explained why I didn't mention it. I note again you refused to acknowledge that fact though, as though announcing who the pro-town seeming players are somehow helps us catch scum.

What?

Saying Lat / Nexus looks town then says so later while giving a one line description while explaining why you didn't give an analysis = countering my points and being town?

Does this make sense to anyone? Can you show me which part of my case you're talking about?

Hold up here. You're saying I'm scummy because my feelings on someone changed from "I think he's scum" to "Not really got an opinion"? Seriously? Other people stood out more to me (CA, wendy, Fitz) to the point that I didn't have as strong of a read on Xite as I did on those three.
In fact... this entire Xite thing is you suggesting that because I ORIGINALLY said he felt like likely scum early on, that I have to retain that thought for the REMAINDER of the game, is that what we are suggesting here? Because if it is I severely think you need to rethink about how you play this game.

What?

It changed from "Lynch the witch!" to "I don't see anything interesting" WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASONING AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY

It's ok to change your opinion, but it's even better to start explaining how it changes and why when the time happens instead of completely forgetting what your past suspicions were.

Someone who appears scummy could even continue to appear scummy, but if others appeared scummier you would rather lynch them. In this case Xite slipped from my radar after a short while at the same time I became more and more suspicious of wendy. It stands to reason I would focus more of my attention (especially closing in on the end of the first day, which we were) on getting the person I feel is scum lynched.

You stated that he was one of the two best and strong lynches for the day, can I really only expect you to be suspicious of one person for being scum and being lynched? Can I really expect you'll completely forget your past suspicions later on?

I also point out that when my feelings on Xite slipped. I STOPPED trying to lynch him. I note this again because, once more, you are refusing to pick up on it. I never once tried to lynch someone who I "didn't have a strong read on" because at that stage of the game I had a stronger read on Xite than I did on others come later on. I would hope you are going to continue attacking anyone who placed a vote on someone and has since stated that they don't have a solid read one way or another.

You stated you thought he was a good lynch. Meaning you are willing to participate in his lynch if the time comes. I barely even know what're trying to say, you're feeling slipped is just another way to say you forgot everything that happened and went after the easiest target is it not?

No, early game he still felt somewhat scummy, by the time wendy had gone nuts, Xite hadn't posted anything that I could see (standing out at least) overtly scummy. However it's also true I was focusing my attention on wendy more than most by this point, however I had planned to do a full read on Xite when we returned, I've stated this previously as well (before we even went to night phase no less), and something may have stood out more then, I don't know, I'm not about to go wasting my time searching Xite's posts at the moment when he got lynched. Thus rather than "forgetting everything from before" which is just stupid, it was simply that I was no longer paying as close attention to Xite, which meant he felt less scummy to me after that point, and as I had wound up not paying extra attention to his posts because I was having a lot (and yes, likely too much, I admit) of back and forth with wendy. You are suggesting I should have lied and said I felt Xite was scummy when I didn't feel he was by this point. By telling the truth you are claiming I am lying, yet by what you are saying, you are suggesting I should have lied. This makes no sense!

Sigh… If I have ever stated any where that you should lie please quote that and show me. Until then I am going to assume you're putting words in my mouth, until then I guess we might has well say having inconsistent suspicions on people is ok along with using I forgot as an excuse for scummy behavior. I can't see any pro town player completely ignoring not only someone who he was suspicious of and believed was a strong lynch but also forgetting when he had these suspicions, which were there for more than one post.

Okay… let's see those:

1 - How? Show me my "opportunistic voting and lynching". I've not once been "opportunistic" in my voting, I voted wendy after only ONE vote had gone on him, one, not 3 or 4 which would be opportunistic, a single lone vote. I voted because I found wendy scummy. Done deal.

2 - Inconsistant views... we're back to the Xite thing again aren't we? That's the only legitimate thing I'll accept, but that's due to focusing on wendy over Xite, which is bad play on my part, not scummy play on my part. There's a difference.

3 - Willing to lynch... ah bollocks, this crap thing again, read up above, I've already answered it, and you're just wrong and talking out your ass to make your story fit, it's the old case of "say something enough times and people will believe it" routine that has been used for years.

4 - Lying... yeah... not done so yet, however you're on my case because I dared to be honest.

1. Take a look and see, and yes that vote was opportunistic. You are lying again. Your vote wasn't the second. It was the 4th. Post #355 Night / Xite are voting for Wendy. LmL then votes. Then you vote. YOU LIED.

2. Yeah we're back to Xite. Then again forgetting any suspicions you've had is ok now so whatev.

3. You said you thought Xite was a strong lynch, are you denying this?

4. I don't know man, but apparently forgetting everything you do is ok now so whatev, but it's interesting to go back to the "uses evidence against people without reading it" I can't even see a town player who wants to win not read the thread. Did you even click the link that havingfitz posted, you would have seen that the game was two years ago, a point you defended.

So I'm now scummy because I don't have a notepad file, or an excel file keeping tabs of absolutely everything that goes on? Seriously?! I'm supposed to store and save tons of data just to play this game? If you do that, fine, well done for you, but don't expect everyone else who plays the game to do the same. Sorry for not being such an uber scum hunter like yourself.

Why can't you comprehend me? That's not what I'm saying at all.

I'd rather back down on a case because I've lost track of it and didn't have time to properly go over it

This post sounds like you had a case against Xite, I am asking you if you have a case. Now you're going on about you don't take notes.

Does this mean the case you had does not exist?

No, I admit I got distracted, but it had nothing to do with "looking active", and everything to do with "I honestly thought wendy was scum trying to distract town", unfortunately I wound up distracted by that as a whole, but I'm still going to state wendy's play was, at best, anti-town, and at worst, scummy. Even if he did flip town.

Sigh… still missing the point. I want you to start scum hunting right now. As in now. Do you know when? Now? Still wondering when? Start scum hunting.

I love this line, you may as well be saying, "Hey, what's everyone else doing? I'm going to keep tunnelling on Prana so come join me."

whatev, nevermind Prana's town and we should all stop being active.

Prana (I'm not sold on the Prana case at this point. I think he defended himself well enough for me right now.)

I'm confused, how exactly did he defend himself well? His defense consisted of,

1. Wah Lateralus tell everyone how pro town I am
2. I forgot
3. Wendy sucks
4. I keep forgetting

Oh wait forgetting is cool if you're acting scummy.

Is there something I'm missing from post #656? Is there any holes in my reasoning?

Also can we please not use WIFOM as the basis of our cases on how people are scummy? One thing is clear from observation, without wendy the day starts with a clean slate. Sure there's some small suspicions but nothing really to get us going fast as how wendy being alive was (NO PRANA DOESN'T COUNT). If the day might have gone on it's possible scum might have been exposed or caught the day afterwards for whatever reason so they played it safe and started the day with a clean slate. If anything I actually think both scum are on separate wagons, it didn't really matter which one died.

[PranaDevil]

It was only after it was proven that Dalt had been on here once before, and then had replaced out, that I began defending him. But that's only if you "can be bothered to read it yourself" of course.

Why would you ever use evidence against someone when you don't know what the evidence is, it's like you're saying what you did was ok.

Buh?

Explanation of Dalt stuff:

Fitx gives case against Dalt, I am in agreement Dalt does look scumm, at this time not checking the Meta link (See... I may have said it before, but... I hate freakin' meta, I REFUSE to read it, catch me here? I also don't expect someone else to balls it up so spectacularly), and agree that what Dalt's done is somewhat scummy.

Someone else then points out the gaping holes in Fitz' logic... and I proceed to realize the mistake in pushing the Dalt case immediately afterwards. How the hell is realizing I made a mistake in attacking Dalt and backing off scummy?

Sigh… you really should learn to read behind the lines. The meta links were pretty good information, and while we're on the topic would you like to provide us a few of your games as both town and scum?

Still not about to go reading them. Also for Pranatown, go read all my games on here. I've not been scum on this site, only times I've been scum are on another site in which the play (in my opinion) isn't as good and half the time it becomes more of a crap shoot anyway.

Rules state you play to your win con right? Let's assume he was doing so. Keep in mind everything he did he had a town mindset.

You're now assuming that hindsight works just as well as it does at the time... wrong, and I'll be questioning some of your opinions on this one... because oh boy are you wrong here.

Now let's also assume he's someone who plays mafia for fun, he's likes to mess with all of us. First half of his posts were more towards questioning why people did certain things while the second half was more on game theory. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often. What I'm trying to say is that a lot of Wendy's actions were just to get reactions, everything else people did not understand was Wendy was saying. Testing reactions and making jokes is something he does often.

Game theory = bad town play. I did it myself in a previous game, and realized afterwards. Game theory is best left to the MD forum, placing it in the game threads just wastes time and... oh yeah, distracts sodding town!

Wendy Iso #36 is a fantastic example of both. In this post it's a clear attempt to buddy with me, to see what my reaction would be. He also gets to see Nexus's reactions plus others seeing this post would be wondering what Wendy was thinking since this Nexus suspicion is new and respond if they wanted to. This would bring out information.

So... an attempt to buddy is obviously pro-town trying to get reactions? It's easy to say that in hindsight because we know he was town, at the time it was scummy. Simple as that.

Iso #37 is just him screwing with all of us and making fun of Xite. That's why everything he had listed is reasoned as Gut, because we all know how Xite likes to use Gut for everything.

Ah yes, the great evidence of being town, pissing about.

Iso #39 Wendy is demonstrating how to prove a random vote. Something Korash k had done very early in the game but does not give evidence that makes it certain. He also gives a witty comment, again to let us know he's joking and screwing with us.

Rather than waste a bunch of brain resources, I did the equivalent of flipping a coin, and we got to share a teaching moment as a side benefit.

Does no one else smile when they read this post?

No, I wondered what the point of it was, it was wasting time.

Wendy's excel sheet will be useful in the future, even a little bit now. Even though we all agree to this let's stop bashing him for making the future days easier for us.

That's suggesting everyone who is scum plays the game the same. This is not true.

Iso #65 Wendy makes another joke, again did no one think was funny?

LmL - Why does everyone have to be freaken Professor Mafia?
Wendy - Actually I am Professor freaking mafia, "shows award"

This isn't really contributing much to scum hunting of course, I'm just trying to show that there were reasons for Wendy's posts. That being said it's interesting to note how LmL said Wendy was claiming to be a great scum hunter when he was claiming to be great at scum.

Of course there were "reasons for wendy's posts", but there's reasons for scum posts too. You can't honestly tell me that what you've posted so far is proof wendy was obv. town here. You've actually only proven so far that, beyond creating an excel sheet, wendy was being useless (and the excel sheet is close to that too)

Iso #73 states that his self vote and no lynch were to get over eager scum. Wasn't really a bad idea as he had the disguise of a newbie, and with many people on him the scum might have gone after him.

Yeah, because scum never quickly back up on something and claim it was to catch scum do they? This is not a defence for his actions, and only looking back in hindsight.

Iso #76 Here's the meta report. It's too bad Xite was town, but regardless this was still useful. There's more than just links to Xite though.

Prana, if someone was to use meta against you what kind of accusations do you believe you would be faced against?

Buggered if I know, I don't think I'd play the game any differently as scum. At least here, on the other site town was always overpowered so the only way to play as scum there was to lose so you had to try and rush game days without standing out.

Iso #102 Gets mad at Prana, this I think is the real point where he explodes. It's understandable that someone would get mad if they constantly had to repeat themselves.

Yeah... considering I had to repeat myself back to him countless times, and am now doing so to you, I know the feeling. But I try not to lose my cool over it, y'know?

Now you're probably wondering what anything had to do with you, first off Wendy starts questioning why you weren't of the gambit. It is strange that you understood the setup you still did not go on with the gambit. Even if you did think he was joking why didn't you claim ahead anyway?

There are multiple possible answers for this, the one Wendy probably thought of

Scum - Ha ha IAU I see through your gambit and it won't work!

Also you not being a part of it hurts the chance for it to work at all which could save your partner. The problem is proving this is very hard, if not possible so he questioned you find out information.

Why didn't I claim anyway? Because... y'know... I laughed at it and moved on. If I believe someone is just joking I'll simply laugh and move on, instead of taking it seriously. But you've even said there are multiple possibilities (the one I just said is the true one of course, but why let that get in the way of you posting the only one that keeps up your "Prana is scum" bollocks?)

That's just making stuff up to fit your case and you know it. You're stating what my thought process was, when you have no idea what my thought process was.

What my view point was, is that wendy was acting scummy as hell, and after thinking about it, he deserved a vote more than a FoS. Done deal. You're either stretching things to fit your opinion of me as being scum, or you are scum deliberately trying to paint me as scum. But either way this one was a huge, massive stretch to get the answer you're getting.

Is it?

Did you just randomly decide, hey Wendy's scummy I'll vote him?
What factors affected your choice?
Was Wendy's post between your FoS and vote important in making your vote?
Was there any new evidence brought up against Wendy that made you decide to vote against him?
Did others opinions have any affects on your vote for Wendy?

I don't remember specifics at this moment in time and I'm not about to go checking back through the thread solely to prove something that is pissing ridiculous to ask. Unless you are going to ask everyone on both wagons to provide exact reasons why they voted for someone at the exact time they did.

Simple answer: I found wendy scummiest in the game at that point, thus I voted for him. Is that not how this game works? How are we suggesting that me voting for someone who was utterly useless and distracting being scummy? Why are you not pushing everyone on that wagon if he was so obviously town and just me?

Except I stated earlier in my last post why I didn't give an analysis or any information prior to you asking. I see absolutely ZERO reason why I should say "X and Y appear pro-town in my eyes" it benefits the scum a whole lot more than it benefits the town. Neither of you looked likely to be lynched, and thus voicing my opinion that, at that point, I felt you were both town arguing, would have helped nobody but scum. Why are you deliberately ignoring my point about that?

Was there any holes in my reasoning, what about Wendy's defense? If you do make an analysis would it not provide content for the town to use in order to find scum?

I was referencing that earlier in my previous post I had stated that I said you and Nexus appeared pro-town, and that I had said so later. And I'd also explained why I didn't mention it. I note again you refused to acknowledge that fact though, as though announcing who the pro-town seeming players are somehow helps us catch scum.

What?

Saying Lat / Nexus looks town then says so later while giving a one line description while explaining why you didn't give an analysis = countering my points and being town?

Does this make sense to anyone? Can you show me which part of my case you're talking about?

These two things go together, and wendy's defence? I thought it was you and Nexus? I just felt at the time you were likely town arguing. Again, it is not beneficial for town to have pro-town players revealed because that allows scum to know how they're doing, and allows scum to know who definitely needs killing that night. It helps scum, and doesn't really help town all that much.

Hold up here. You're saying I'm scummy because my feelings on someone changed from "I think he's scum" to "Not really got an opinion"? Seriously? Other people stood out more to me (CA, wendy, Fitz) to the point that I didn't have as strong of a read on Xite as I did on those three.
In fact... this entire Xite thing is you suggesting that because I ORIGINALLY said he felt like likely scum early on, that I have to retain that thought for the REMAINDER of the game, is that what we are suggesting here? Because if it is I severely think you need to rethink about how you play this game.

What?

It changed from "Lynch the witch!" to "I don't see anything interesting" WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASONING AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY

It's ok to change your opinion, but it's even better to start explaining how it changes and why when the time happens instead of completely forgetting what your past suspicions were.

Not about forgetting "past suspicions" but all about "I didn't really follow him from the point I got hung up with wendy", and as I've repeatedly said, this is bad town play, and I accept that, calling me scummy for it is stretching to a hideous degree.

Someone who appears scummy could even continue to appear scummy, but if others appeared scummier you would rather lynch them. In this case Xite slipped from my radar after a short while at the same time I became more and more suspicious of wendy. It stands to reason I would focus more of my attention (especially closing in on the end of the first day, which we were) on getting the person I feel is scum lynched.

You stated that he was one of the two best and strong lynches for the day, can I really only expect you to be suspicious of one person for being scum and being lynched? Can I really expect you'll completely forget your past suspicions later on?

See, this is how you're deliberately trying to paint me in a bad light, you keep saying I forgot, when really if I "forgot" to do something it was to stop following Xite after wendy picked up, so can we please stop saying I "forgot" Xite was scummy, and state the truth that I felt wendy was scummy, but that I had also said I still felt Fitz had done enough earlier with pushing Dalt to appear scummy, and that CA still felt off to me. But shall we forget all that in favour of "it was only wendy or Xite", because anything else harms your case right?

I also point out that when my feelings on Xite slipped. I STOPPED trying to lynch him. I note this again because, once more, you are refusing to pick up on it. I never once tried to lynch someone who I "didn't have a strong read on" because at that stage of the game I had a stronger read on Xite than I did on others come later on. I would hope you are going to continue attacking anyone who placed a vote on someone and has since stated that they don't have a solid read one way or another.

You stated you thought he was a good lynch. Meaning you are willing to participate in his lynch if the time comes. I barely even know what're trying to say, you're feeling slipped is just another way to say you forgot everything that happened and went after the easiest target is it not?

No. Stop trying to bend things to fit your opinion here. I'm getting sick of it.

If I was so willing to participate in the lynch of him... Why did I refuse to jump to it? fucksake. The entire "you were willing to lynch someone you didn't have a strong read on" is rendered totally null and void by that one small fact that I DIDN'T LYNCH HIM. Sweet jesus.

Sigh… If I have ever stated any where that you should lie please quote that and show me. Until then I am going to assume you're putting words in my mouth, until then I guess we might has well say having inconsistent suspicions on people is ok along with using I forgot as an excuse for scummy behavior. I can't see any pro town player completely ignoring not only someone who he was suspicious of and believed was a strong lynch but also forgetting when he had these suspicions, which were there for more than one post.

So you putting words in my mouth repeatedly is perfectly okay and normal? (Just check through the post I'm replying to, you did it a few times) But the second you can claim I'm doing the same to you it's scummy scum scum? Riiiiight.

You are saying I should lie because I dared to be honest about how I went from pushing Xite, to not pushing Xite. Again, was it good town play? No, course not, and I think the rest of the game would agree. Does it make me scummy? No.

What you are suggesting I should have done is continue to push the case on Xite so that I did not appear to have backed off from it, doing that would be claiming I had a case when, by that point, I didn't. Basically I either lied and pushed a cash, or I did what I did do, and that's stopped pushing the case and... get called scummy for it? What? That makes no sense. Your case thus far doesn't make any sense.

1. Take a look and see, and yes that vote was opportunistic. You are lying again. Your vote wasn't the second. It was the 4th. Post #355 Night / Xite are voting for Wendy. LmL then votes. Then you vote. YOU LIED.

How's about... when I said I was second on the wagon it was through not checking it and taking you saying LmL voted and then I did as stating I jumped on the wagon second. I wasn't about to go hunting to find out exactly what number on the wagon I was, and so I took what you said about it and used that. So no, not lying. What is it with you and effing lying?

Either way, I don't really care where I was on the wagon, all I care about is I was voting someone who was the scummiest player on day 1 in my eyes. Done deal.

3. You said you thought Xite was a strong lynch, are you denying this?

No, I'm not. I said he was a good lynch AT THAT TIME.

Are you suggesting someone who is a good lynch at point A in the game HAS to therefore be a good lynch come point H in the game? Because that's what you're suggesting to me here.

4. I don't know man, but apparently forgetting everything you do is ok now so whatev, but it's interesting to go back to the "uses evidence against people without reading it" I can't even see a town player who wants to win not read the thread. Did you even click the link that havingfitz posted, you would have seen that the game was two years ago, a point you defended.

Dalt case, read above.

So I'm now scummy because I don't have a notepad file, or an excel file keeping tabs of absolutely everything that goes on? Seriously?! I'm supposed to store and save tons of data just to play this game? If you do that, fine, well done for you, but don't expect everyone else who plays the game to do the same. Sorry for not being such an uber scum hunter like yourself.

Why can't you comprehend me? That's not what I'm saying at all. [/quote]
No, it is what you said, you asked me where my notes were and if I'd saved them. I have no notes, thus if I'd simply said that you would start harping on about not having a case to begin with, blah blah blah. We already know this, and it's damned obvious.

I'd rather back down on a case because I've lost track of it and didn't have time to properly go over it

This post sounds like you had a case against Xite, I am asking you if you have a case. Now you're going on about you don't take notes.

Does this mean the case you had does not exist?

Ah... so you did that anyway? Nicely done that man.

No, I admit I got distracted, but it had nothing to do with "looking active", and everything to do with "I honestly thought wendy was scum trying to distract town", unfortunately I wound up distracted by that as a whole, but I'm still going to state wendy's play was, at best, anti-town, and at worst, scummy. Even if he did flip town.

Sigh… still missing the point. I want you to start scum hunting right now. As in now. Do you know when? Now? Still wondering when? Start scum hunting.

Right back at ya buddy. But you're right... I need to start working out who scum are, thankfully I think I have a nice easy start thanks to your tunnelling.

I love this line, you may as well be saying, "Hey, what's everyone else doing? I'm going to keep tunnelling on Prana so come join me."

whatev, nevermind Prana's town and we should all stop being active.

Wrong there, you asked everyone to hop on my wagon. That's not asking everyone to be active, that's trying to get people to join you.

So... scum hunting... scum number 1 would be...

vote: Lateralus22

Tunelling, blatant putting words in my mouth, and pretty much using hindsight to make his case on me in regards to saying how obv. town wendy is.

Cue "Obvious scum with an OMGUS vote" response... now!

[LlamaFluff]

Well, I still say that we should no lynch. TW proved how it is the correct move to make in this setup, logic and math back it up. People are just conditioned to be way against no lynching at all costs, even when an exception to the rule occurs like this game. I would be very happy with a no lynch today. The conditions are still ok for one, although theoretically it should have occured seven posts into the game.

I like the points that Lat has been raising on PD a whole lot, and over the next few days I will try and supplement the points of his that I see as key with a few additonal things that I have noticed.

I am pretty sure that Wolf, Lat and now fitz are town. IAU still probably but gut is making me wonder there, as I think the TW kill is either a move from a highly experienced or newbie scum team. I can see a few reasons that TW would be the correct kill for scum.

Fitz though I will go into a little bit more since that is a complicated read. It comes from mainly the early game where he got into it over the setup. This is a very unique setup, that most players are able to identify as scum as mountainous given that it is a two good team. It is very rare for that to not be either a 10:2 or a 8:2:2 setup. Once it is discovered to be a unique setup, scum would be paying more attention to the setup, and this was something that fitz did not do. Yes it is a WIFOM solution, but it makes some sense to me. Only downside is that a TW kill did benifit fitz a bit, that is even greater WIFOM however.

CA I now slightly lead town again. Im skitzo like that.