Mini 1039 Lost: Season One (Over)

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/confirm

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Farasera, are you two people on one account?

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Ahh, ok

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I've never actually seen the show. I'm sure I'll do fine!

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FaraSera, why do you insist on a policy lynch for Vezok? I've never played with him, and I don't think everyone else did either, so maybe you can explain your intent on killing Vezok regardless of his role in this game?

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FaraSera, really? You advocate a policy lynch of Vezok and claim that he is a very anti-town person, and then when he starts claiming things left and right, you are the FIRST to jump on it? Notice that Vezok only got on the wagon once it was established. Wouldn't it make sense for him to start it himself if he was so sure? And I know nothing about Lost, but chesskid3's comment right after Vezok's claim shows that the role and the name may be contradictory. That, and he claims Dekes to be the scummiest character on the show Season 1, by your admission. Again, as I'm assuming Vezok's play style off of your description (for reference, I'm imagining Fate here since he sounds similar), and if all of this is to be viewed in that context, this would be totally like him to cause havoc.

You look inconsistent in your beliefs and claims, so

FoS: FaraSera

for now, perhaps a vote later.

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@FaraSera: I don't know Vezok's playstyle so forgive me if I assumed too much. I asked you to clarify earlier but you never did. I still don't like that you started the wagon for him, but I'm sure Dekes will help clarify things.

As for your question, I'm not sure I understand. I don't have problems with Vezok's play because I never played with him and don't know what he's like. I'm only going off what you said, which is why I questioned you and not him since you're the one who characterized him as a bad player and then seemingly changed your mind.

@chesskid3: The only reason its incredibly likely that we're lynching Dekes is because of Vezok's claim. And its true that we can confirm Vezok tomorrow depending on the lynch today, but in the process we may lose 2 townies needlessly. I still think we should at the very least wait for Dekes to explain himself before we lynch him.

And I've never heard of a name cop. Is this a common role?

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The way I see it we have these possibilities:

We can lynch Dekes and verify Vezok that way. However, if we fail, this will cost us a high price of 2 townies. While I'm starting to see the sense in that Vezok wouldn't make such an easily verifiable claim if he were scum, the cost of failing is still high and Vezok has been intentionally or accidentally 'confusing' character roles based on names. To me this seems a bit fishy still.

We can lynch Vezok and know for sure. If he is scum, job well done. But if he is as he claims, then we could miss out on a lot of potentially useful information assuming he's not paranoid or some other bastard version. This is clearly out of the question.

Or, we can not lynch either (or lynch based off of information not acquired from Vezok's claim). The reason I support this is because if Vezok really is the cop he claims to be and his result is true scum, I don't see why he won't be killed during the night. Mafia have nothing to gain by keeping him alive. But even if he does survive the night because mafia decide to utilize a little reverse psychology and leave him for us to kill during the next day, or he is saved by a power role, we will enter FaraSera's and chesskid's scenario and go from there with a lynch of one of them. And if things go bad, we will only have lost one townie to this charade (disregarding any other unrelated lynches).

Hmm, I started this post off intending to disagree with FaraSera and chesskid. I guess its a good thing I took the time to write it out, lol. But one thing I still don't agree with is how will we be able to test whatever claim Vezok makes tomorrow? The truth behind any claim he makes will be between him and the person he's claiming.

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Ideally, yes. It would have to be done in the open, and at the same time so we know neither cheated. Maybe the owner of the role can encrypt his answer and post it, and once Vezok claims the role, the owner can tell us how to decrypt it. It probably can be done though.

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Good summary post of their actions, Magna. If not soon, I'm sure it will come in handy later in the game.

I have 3 pages to go reread, but I've been wondering about this lyncher thing. Why would we ever go along with Vezoks need to lynch Dekes (if that is his true role)? I mean, if we let Vezok win, we pretty much lose 2 votes right then and there. And what would we gain? It would seem our best bet is to leave them both alive and use their votes and powers (if they have any) to our gain. And, if Vezok decides not to cooperate and turns anti-town, well, better lose 1 person than 2. Unless I'm missing something, now that Vezok revealed himself there is little chance that he will get what he wants. I'm not even sure why he went ahead and did that instead of pushing the wagon on Dekes, since a lynch through the previous claim had a much greater success rate than this.

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@MoI: I'm the type of person who finds every little thing thats out of the ordinary suspicious. As such, I tend not to cast my vote too eagerly to counterbalance that, which makes me seem afraid to vote. Don't worry, when I feel I have a case that warrants a vote, I'll cast it. And while its a good thing that you are able to keep up with all players, you should be more careful because my discussion of testing methods was before Vezok's final claim, and my 'disagreements' with chess and FaraSera was nothing more than a question about how to proceed.

I'll go with my gut and say that Vezok looks the scummiest to me. Basically, I don't trust his series of claims, as they were too convenient and opportunistic. The day-cop role by itself isn't that suspicious, but combined with his sudden change of heart it is, as you shall see:

I have role related information to want dekes to claim name. It's obvious I won't claim what it is.

He states that he knows his role, but won't claim it just yet.

I'm Boone Carlyle.
I am going to out him without a claim.
Dekes is Ethan Rom. He probably has a fake claim. Let's wait to see what he tells us.

He cracks two hours later. He didn't even give Dekes a chance to post in that time period. Sounds like scum, anxious to get the wagon started on Dekes while he was away, which worked out pretty well.

After MoI brings up the possibility of a lyncher (post 97), Vezok goes underground. He makes only garbage posts until this comment:

Wtf is with this lyncher speculation. You are letting scum go away.

Which to me looks like he is trying to distance himself from the possibility.

But after FaraSera offers him a deal (and dramonic offers his support a bit later), Vezok eagerly jumps on that. I think he dropped his first claim because of the ongoing discussion on how to test his role, as there was no other way for him not to be found out after his claim failed than by settling for this bad, but not scummy, role.

Additionally, if he really is a lyncher, he had no reason to admit it. If he kept pretending to be a cop, then he should have known that we would kill Dekes before him if we ever took that route. Changing his claim only shows that he needed an escape.

So fara is right.
I thought about claiming when I went to bed.
TL is scum because he has a post on page 6(will quote it in a moment where he says the lyncher speculation is bad and he wants dekes lynched. He is probably scum knowing that dekes is town and wants him dead.
Now I caught you scum and I really want to win this game.

Dekes is Claire alright. I am Ethan and I have the fake claim Boone. And yes I am a lyncher.

Even if you wouldn't believe me as a name cop on day 1 I had the masterful plan of guessing chesskid's role as Hurley.
And yes I am a lyncher.
The scums are probably infiltrated in your groups and don't need fake claims. Here I helped you as much as I could.

The admission itself was garbled and incomprehensible. There is an accusation on TL, which, while although it may be sound, is clearly thrown in there to soften our view of his change of heart so we can get on with helping him win.

So if you won''t at least try to help me win I will do unpleasent things.

See. There is the problem.
Why would I help town if town doesn't want to help me?

He then insists on town helping him achieve his goal despite that being a very anti-town thing to do given that the current consensus is that Dekes is a townie.

Vote farasera

I won't change my vote.
He is either scum or Jack.

He devised a plan to make me claim to be sure I am not a Pr.He wanted to appear pro town. He is a very smart scum.

Abandoning his previous case on TL, he now tries to pretend like he's helping by calling FaraSera scum. By themselves this and the TL accusation during his role change woulnd't have been that significant, but well, this is shedding light on his true intentions. Why try to lynch someone who you have no purpose lynching, even if you are 3rd party?

Although it was his (poor) decision to out himself, he is either trying to appear to give reason for his FaraSera case or is further trying to soften his role switch.

Even if by some chance he is a lyncher, he has openly expressed multiple times his intent to get in our way. If he is a lyncher, and given his intent on playing anti-town if he doesn't get his way, the scum will most likely keep him alive. In the end it will be up to us to deal with him anyway. Until I find a scummier person, I say now rather than later.

Vote: Vezok

And for MoI: My other suspicion is on BC. Frankly, I have more suspicion on him than on Vezok by his posts compared to Vezoks, but Vezoks actions seem more significant to me. Since you have most of the case written up in your posts, here are a few of my favorite quotes:

I feel that if everyone name claimed only then that would make it harder for others to fake claim later. just my opinion =/

Fake claims are essential for themed games from my experience elsewhere, so this might be a bit biased. This is clear anti-town in that context.

Whatever you say dekes. I follow a claim of you being ethan which makes sense as a scum role what else was i supposed to do, ignore it? You may call me opportunistic but it was no way opportunistic. I am, believe it or not rather good at keeping track of thresholds and if someone were to come in and vote quickly I would have unvoted to let the day evolve so that you had time to claim or rebuttal. No doubt I do agree that occasionally the third or fourth vote on a player can be opportunistic. However scum-bloodcovenent would blindly jump on a wagon as the late voter with no reasoning. As you may ask what my reasoning is... well.... it's that there was a claim that your role was of an "other." And they are bad in season 1. Therefore i felt confident in you as a lynch. Note that it doesn't make sense for Scum Vezo to so early give off a fake claim though. Because i would assume he knows that if you flip town, he will be ultimately hung tomorrow. -One of the reasons why I followed him.

Anyways. I'll stall the wagon for now.

Unvote:
Vote: Ademisk

scum.

For his attempted distraction by giving us an example on how he 'would' have acted if he were scum. WIFOM, basically.

Vezok is a poor player sometimes. that is part of the reason why I followed the claim "headfirst."

Does not compute. Poor wording maybe, but still.


And MoI, just because Vezok comes off as VI does not mean we should give him a free pass on all he says and does. Sure we may have to judge him by a different set of standards, but that doesn't mean he gets a free ride to the endgame.

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Thats assuming he is a lyncher, chesskid.

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Assuming there is a vig and that he decides to 'waste' his shot on Vezok. You seem sure there is a vig. Why is that?

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1 shot per night, yes. What is your point?

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I believe that Vezo is a lyncher now. Since his threats, would it be a good idea to have a vig shoot his ass if there is one?

Well if he gets vigged he's dead either way. If there is a vig, our problem will be solved tomorrow, so why waste the lynch?

You're the one going on about how you'd like him to get vigged, not me. Sounds to me like you're the one speculating. And I'm calling you on it; why do you think there is a vig?

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@HackerHuck: Oops, I guess looking back on it now it does seem like I'm PR hunting. I didn't like what chesskids tone was implying in post 244 so I took the initiative. I think we were just bored being the only ones online at the time.

I don't know the theme, so I can't comment on that directly. But given the discussion how Ethan is the best fitting scum role, it would be an easy choice which role to stick someone with to have them look suspicious. Given Dekes claim and the growing agreement that Vezok was a lyncher, I think he just took the convenient exit this provided him. Between the time the lyncher role was brought up and when he admitted to it, he stayed away from discussion and only tried to distance himself from the lyncher claim and only once FaraSera and dram made him a deal did he decide to come clean. He certainly had time to think it through. But I will say that it was a nice coincidence that he hit Claire with his first attempt.

I think Vezok is worth a lynch (if not today, then sometime really soon) because he already openly stated his intent to not help us and is actively doing so, even though he's 'scum hunting'. He may be against the mafia's win condition, but I think we can agree that they will try to kill him later rather than sooner if only to have us suffer with him. And thats if he's a lyncher. I don't believe he is. Actions speak louder than words, and he's made a few really bad ones. Therefore, for me is he one of the top scum suspects.

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Let's lynch scum. bc is not scum.
Choose anoyther target.

Can you be a little less vague. What evidence do you have to contrast the growing pile of evidence against him? And who would this other target be?

Guys, we are not lynching BC.
He is a VERY bad lynch.

Look somewhere else.

I'm not sure if this is a Vezok's post 254 parody or if you really mean this, but why is he a bad lynch? And just because everyone else is doing it, I'd like to see you make a long post case on who you do think is a good lynch

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@MoI: That was intended to be more of a pressure vote, though I do still see him as more scum than not. He isn't posting, and to be honest, I don't think he will do more unless prodded. In addition, I looked back through his ISO where I found a couple of other kind of scummy things like saying he intends to help us find scum but then he goes back to being difficult. It's true that your post helped me decide, but in my eyes he always was the most...interesting suspect. The only way for him to clear his case is to talk more, so he isn't doing himself any favors either by hiding.

Vigging Vezok would definitely be the ideal resolution to our current problem. I'm not trying to out anyone, but we don't even know if there is a vig. If there is, great, since it doesn't look like anyone will be joining me anytime soon. That said, I hope Vezok takes the hint and gets some content in before his next disappearance.

@dramonic: I'm not one to take things on faith so easily, so forgive me if I don't take your word for it when all you've said is 'trust me, don't do it'. And I can't help but relate your post to Vezok's last post, so I'll be keeping an eye on you two.

@chess, jenn, and MoI: I feel you guys are a bit too eager to jump off the BC wagon. I hope I'm not missing anything, but there's nothing but dramonic's cryptic quote to base your conclusion that he's a VI. It seems the standard here is that if someone claims something, people tend to trust them so that part is ok, but given Vezok's play I'm a bit worried that you aren't more careful about trusting people, especially when their reason is much weaker.

@jenn: I went for Vezok because I think he is more likely to be scum than lyncher. You go to assume that just because his credibility is shot that he must be a lyncher. Sure, its possible, but thats not how I see it. And I would definitely not say he is the most easiest lynch. For that matter, he never was. When he changed his mind, most everyone just accepted it like they accepted his first claim (except MoI, yea yea, details).

As for his admission post, I think you should go re-read it again and compare it to his other posts. I think he claims 3 times in there: at the start when he says fara is right, in the middle with that quote you showed me, and again at the end when he repeats his new role. At the same time, he mixes in role speculation and scum accusations. Its like his mind is all over the place. That whole post is just awkwardly structured. I'm not basing my case on it, but its certainly an interesting post considering everything.

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@jenn:
-I think you are trying too hard. I already told you, I think he comes off more scummy than lyncher. If I thought he was a lyncher, I wouldn't have voted him, or I would have withdrawn it. There's not much more I can explain to you here. Until he can post more, there is nothing that can help me change my mind about his guilt.

- My vig comment was made to show whoever is interested that I do acknowledge the possible existence of a vig, and that it would indeed be more convenient to have him die like that at night that use up our day kill. But just because it would be ideal, that does not mean it is guaranteed to happen.

- I didn't vote BC because my vote was on Vezok, but BC was also suspicious. Here's a quote in case you missed it:

My other suspicion is on BC. Frankly, I have more suspicion on him than on Vezok by his posts compared to Vezoks, but Vezoks actions seem more significant to me.

Give me two votes and I would have voted them both. However, the reason I am concerned for people suddenly hopping off the wagon is completely unrelated to BC, or his wagon. The fact that we've seen something similar on this exact day should give you pause, but apparently I am the only one that noticed the similarities.

And since you asked for some more reasons, here are a few more quotes that made me wonder:

The person who brought up the idea of someone being a lyncher is (imo) just as scummy as someone who brings up the idea of a jester. It's a scum tactic to distract the town from a possible scum lynch.

Brought up after Vezok confirmed himself a lyncher. Completely useless, and is ironically used as a distraction by him.

Unvote:
Vote: ChessKid

-Poisoning the Well.
-Claims to give me time to respond before he votes. but doesn't.
-Notes that his vote is only a pressure vote on me.
-states that the scum have a QT
-Major dish of Oh My God You SUCK!

Feels like a bit OMGUS since most of the reasons are poor. 'Poisoning the Well' was false because the transcription of events chesskid made was pretty accurate. Although its worth noting that chesskd didn't account for HH jumping on the wagon even though he directly addresses HH in his post. The QT thing is standard so thats also a bad reason. Pressure votes aren't inherently bad.


@jasonT1981:

hmmm, if a Vig would not waste a bullet on a lyncher.. why would town waste a lynch on said role? you are right though, CK does seem slightly sure of a lyncher. I really don't like this... its alright for town to waste time lynching a lyncher which is counter productive to the win condition but a waste of a kill for a vig?

You got a good point. I guess I got caught up in the arguement with chesskid too much to notice. I'll still say that unless one of us who expressed interest in having Vezok vigged is themselves the vig, we can't really guarantee that the vig will go for Vezok instead of who they believe is scum.

Before anyone starts asking, now that BC is temporarily on the 'no lynch' list, dram takes the second spot with his vague BC defense.


Also, what does PoE and waffling mean?

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@jason: Keeping my vote on someone and defending my position != pushing for a lynch. I've been pretty passive about it and only brought it up when questioned. I feel you too are trying a bit hard to make a case: I did not think BC deserved a vote more than Vezok, and I explained why. PR hunting...I could see how you'd think that, but I don't think asking for clarification for some claims and assumptions is necessarily scummy, because look, chesskid makes an assumption about drams claim and dram says he's assuming too much. Point is, we need more information on that particular case before conclusions can be made, and I'd like you to try and say otherwise. Mistakes already have been made due to lack of it, but despite what we ask of him its his choice to divulge it if and when he wants.

@MoI: I think he made a bad move and got himself in trouble. When he saw an opportunity to lessen his punishment, he took it.

@HH: I wouldn't mind hearing what you have on MoI or FSHydra. If anything, FSHydra might be easier to figure out if he's scum since both people would have to keep the story straight. I'll do an ISO on him later, but I invite you to do one too.


That said, I think I will

unvote

Vezok for now. I've made a case on him as best I could, but nobody else sees it that way. Since more people than there are mafia showed their dislike for it, I'd be wasting my time and needlessly risking my life further by sticking to it. This does not in any way alleviate my suspicions of him, but for the time being I'll look elsewhere. Still not liking how both Vezok and dram started being against BCs lynch at essentially the same time. Maybe I'll ISO dram along with FSHydra next.

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Very nice, Vezok. You're only a week too late.

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FSHydra ISO:

Vote: vezokpiraka

Anyway, let's cut the bullshit. We're in agreement. I'm declaring a policy lynch on vezokpiraka. If you haven't played with him before, well, if you've ever played with Empking, it's something similar except even more bizarre. He likes to jump wagons, is nigh-on unreadable, and is one of the most anti-town players in the game I have ever had the (dis?)honor of playing with. Let's lynch him right here, on Day 1, where he can do the least damage.

Calls for policy lynch of vezok. HH then calls him scum for this, and FSH retorts with WIFOM by asking HH why he assumes Vezok is not scum. Due to how fast this was dropped I consider the policy lynch RVS-ish, and thus neutral, but not the WIFOM.

ROLE RELATED INFO? Forgive me if I don't automatically a) trust you to be town and EVEN if you were town I don't think I trust you 100% to work in the best interests of the town with this info.

FSH seems to be strongly against Vezok, regardless of what side Vezok might be on. His last instance of baseless oposition against Vezok.

AH. VEZOK. Ethan's fucking obv scum. Like he's the scummiest character and main big evil of season 1.

I really can't see Dekes being town. Unvote Vote Dekes.

This post did not sit well with me before. After me and FSH argued for a bit, I more or less came to see it his way. Still find it a little odd that he was the first on to vote, but I'll just say it was due to him being on at the right time.

Me and Sera were just discussing that in our qt. Ethan/Claire lyncher/lynchee does actually make 100% flavour sense. Bleh I didn't think vezo would be savvy enough to actually do that, but it makes a fair bit of sense. Unvote I also had another even more terrifying posibillity overnight, but thankfully that's not true.

I liked this part (and the rest of the post). In a way, it offsets my slight suspicion about him being the first on Dekes wagon. Also good because I would've never caught this, having never seen the show. Towny points.

Actually Vezok I have a proposal. If you are a lyncher please claim. This way we can lynch Dekes today (there's no guarantee he's town, see reck's mod meta). You'll leave the game and we'll at least be free of all these distractions. What say you? You get a guaranteed win and we at the very least have a decent chance of lynching a scum lynchee.

Another good post. Assuming he meant what he said in ISO 30 that he wouldn't actually go through with the kill, this was a pretty good way to out Vezok

Vote Jenni

Any vigs out there should take care of vezo, I don't want to 'waste' a lynch on him. Also lyncher's a sucky role in a mini game. Also there's too many people being so fucking...passive. It's annoying.

Maybe its just me, but I don't like unsupported votes. They allow potential scum (or anyone else) to roll with the wagon and not participate in the game. Plus, he himself is being passive by not making a case for jenni when voting her.

Then chess jumps on. Again, doesn't look good.

Unvote Vote Bloodcovenant

Another unsupported vote, right after saying how scummy it is for dram to make an unsupported vote on him. I guess its ok if you're the one doing it.

K @ dram's softclaim. That means we're lynching none of the following today: Vezok, Dekes, Chesskid, dram, blood as they're all obvtown/stuff/lyncher.

Why is chesskid in that list? Nothing has happened that would guarantee his safety for the day like it would for the other 4. If anything, you should've mentioned how towny he is when you mentioned MoI.


Overall, I think FSH learns more towards town. I don't like how he makes unsupported votes, especially since he calls others on it. However, he did make a couple of good posts that I think benefited town more than his scummy posts hurt us.

And FSH, you should start signing your posts again. It would nice knowing who posts what instead of having to guess.


@jenni: Patience. I said I'd do a FSH ISO and here it is. I don't really have a suspect now because my top 3 are protected (Vezok, BC, dram). Admittedly, I haven't touched dram yet, but he caught my attention and I'm waiting for the case to develop.

I asked HH to comment on MoI and FSH because he specifically said he wont. Even if he doesn't have a case, any insight is good. Heck, I invite you to take a look at them too, jenni . You've been focusing a little too intently on me lately anyway.

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Popping in quick to address some stuff.

@HH: How is the test scummy? Someone else asked and I don't think we ever truly clarified that. And for the record, I would have been willing to be the subject. And the BC stuff again, oh boy...BC

talked

scummier but Vezok

acted

scummier. If anyone else tries to use this as an argument, try not to misrepresent. As for dram, I didn't say he was scum, merely suspicious, and I am waiting for that to truly develop before I can judge. But thanks for giving me another chance to clarify.

@MoI: Well, if he continued with the day cop charade, we would have found him out and lynched him day two. Now that he is a lyncher, a 3rd party, we're going to ignore him until near the end of the game, meaning he will likely live more than 2 days. Without speculating into PRs, if he is scum, living through even 1 extra night is bad for us. Also, apparently HH tried to discourage the vig from going after Vezok.

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@Dekes: I ISO'd FSH for 3 reasons: HH brought him up as a hard read, there not being an ISO or something similar on him already, and me remembering I didn't like his play near the beginning of the game which made me decide to do him over MoI. ISOs do not necessarily have to turn up a scum read. If my ISOs or cases help bring something to light, I feel would have done my job.

@MoI: I'd have to agree with BC. If you have suspicions on one person for some action, why would you at the same time forgive another person for doing the same thing?

@AGar: I noticed that too, but I figured I would be nitpicking calling him on that. I don't know how legit his claim is, but I can respect him not cracking and saying too much.

Given that Vezok, Dekes, BC, and dram are protected today, I won't vote myself, and I feel FSH is towny enough (through my own research), that leaves AGar/TL, chess, HH, jason, jenni, and MoI. Of those, HH and jason stick out, so I'll check them out later. We got about a week, so don't worry I'll find a scummy enough person by then. Also note that BC became off limits after I expressed my suspicions of him, and it's not like I have just been sitting around since then.

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Lets look at TL/AGar here:

TL: 13 posts. Of all of those, 0-2, 5, 11 were not even relevant to the thread. 4, 6, 9, 12 are fluff. 7, 8, and 10 are his only 'content' posts where he only discusses and defends his vote on Dekes, eventually unvoting. Finally, in 3 he makes his only 2 votes, 1 to prove a point and one to jump on the growing Dekes wagon. Haven't posted in a week until being replaced by AGar, so some of that lurking could be explained by dropping out, but then again I don't think it would take that long to find a replacement.

0 content, bandwagoner, lurker scum?

AGar: ISO 0, catching up, cool. ISO 1, ???. ISO 2, talks about where he caught up up to so far. What concerns me is that he tries to distance himself from TL's bandwagon vote on Dekes by pointing out what a stupid move it was for those who did it, and talks about the situation like we are omniscient and should have known Vezok would change roles. ISO 3 again has him pulling the 'that was a dumb move, why did you do it' on HH when his predecessor took part of that, with the rest of the post being largely misrep. And, using that as justification, he hops on the HH wagon. And finally, ISO 4. On second look, I realized that he was over-analyzing dram's mention of scum rather than his unwillingness to give us more information. Sounds like he's trying too hard to scum hunt.

So there you have it. Almost 0 content from both of them combined and poor attempts at scumhunting. You could say that AGAr didn't have time to really get into the game yet, but then whats up with that premature vote on HH? And with that,

vote: AGar

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So FSH, here I notice you jumping on this bandwagon and putting me at L-1. Would you, I don't know, care to make a case? Up to this point, you only mentioned me as potential scum once in ISO 39 as 1 amongst 3. Now here you are throwing in a random vote my way to try and seem like you're doing something. Your only reason is that you dislike my case on AGar, which I see as pretty solid. How about you go and look through both their posts and find 1 useful/towny thing they have done this entire game before you start condemning me for 'flailing'?

@AGar: I don't think disagreeing your predecessor is scummy, but you are building a case with that point and that is messed up considering 'you' are also guilty of that. Your last sentence is spot on, thats exactly what you're doing and why I called you out.

Before this gets any more out of hand, I'll go and say that I too can prove I am town. I know another person's name and role, but from this thread I don't think they know me, so it could be any of you. As such, I'll lay off claiming my own role and theirs until they acknowledge this post and tell me how much of their info I can divulge.

[Ademisk]

Ok, I was thinking everyone could comment, but I checked and with the deadline in 3 days that would be unreasonable. At the same time, I was trying to be really careful not to give up too much too soon in case things go wrong. Having given it more though, I guess even if I die and flip town, that will only vindicate that person, so ok, here goes. It's you jenniwren. I know your flavor and role. Knowing this, I'm sure you can probably guess my flavor. How much would you like me to reveal to prove it?

[Ademisk]

@MoI: I must've erased that part, but I was going to say that it would at least convince her, and seeing her unvote might make the rest reconsider.

@FSH: player, flavor, role. I'm positive.

[Ademisk]

Perhaps, but first you withdraw your baseless vote or get to making a case for why its there. There's 3 garbage votes on me atm (dram, Vezok, and you), but unlike them, you aren't protected for today.

I also notice you never bothered to question dram on his claim. Why the sudden interest in having people claim?

[Ademisk]

@FSH: No, I'm refusing to answer it because that would be idiotic. And don't give me that 'I voted because you were scummiest'. If I used that as a reason, I'd have 8-9 votes before the mod had a chance to post a vote count. Your reasons fail. Whats more is that you keep ignoring me when I ask you to justify your insistence on why I was 'flailing' when I went after AGar. And how are the circumstances so different between me and dram that would justify you wanting me to claim? The context: votes were pilling up on both of us, I just happened to wait until it was my only choice. The info: I have more than dram apparently; BC didn't even acknowledge the situation, whereas I clearly managed to convince jenni. No difference, aside from the inescapable 'later in the game'.

[Ademisk]

@Dekes: Post 335

vote: AGar

It sounds to me like you guys are just too lazy to try anyone else. 2 days before the deadline, so why bother thinking when you can just comfortably sit on the most popular wagon, right? Even if you think that somehow my claim is scummier than drams and thus me and jenni are scum, that still probably leaves at least 1 scum amongst the rest of you. So get with the scumhunting, you got 2 days.

@jenni: I wouldn't mind claiming, but that will mean that your flavor will eventually come out as well. What do you think?

[Ademisk]

jenni, I think my flavor will be revealed one way or another today. Why would you need to do a full claim? There is nothing more your role reveal can do to increase your safety than if you just give your flavor.

[Ademisk]

I am

Michael Dawson

. Have at me!

[Ademisk]

I don't know the character, but a quick search didn't turn up anything about him killing anyone in season 1, so what are you talking about dram?

[Ademisk]

Site the season or your arguments are null and void.

[Ademisk]

HH was not at L-1, he was L-4 when he thought he was L-1. 7 to lynch, not 4, right?

[Ademisk]

Sorry, weird votecount threw me off.

You're a jackass, Vezok.

[Ademisk]

jason, what do you mean by 'I protect someone from the 48'. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that there were 14(?) main characters in season one. Unless there are 34 side characters, it would be a little weird for Reck to count them all considering the scope of this game is season one.

[Ademisk]

V/LA for the rest of the weekend. Comp problems

[Ademisk]

My thoughts as I catch up, chronologically. Sorry for the disarray.

How was chess' fakevote bad? I mean, when comparing a real vote against a fake one, why would the fake one be worse when it deals less damage? The victim remains with 1 less vote, and I could see how you could use it to draw out those interested in getting the lynchee hammered. Though in this case, it was pointless either way since HH was already at L-1.

@dram: Post 435. Why are you surprised that me and jenni are alive?

@chess: Post 437. I'm not to clear on what a Beloved Princess is so maybe thats why I didn't notice it, but how did jenni softclaim that role?

@MOI. Post 438. What else could the softclaim mean other than BP?

@jenni: Post 440. If Vezok is not mafia, then he wouldn't have a fake claim, and thus made it up, right? Therefore, him claiming Boone does not exclude there actually being a real Boone in the game.

@chess: Post 447. If Jason had a reasonable claim, why not give HH the same benefit of doubt? Vote on AGar w/o reasons.

@dram: Post 451. You "FUCKIN TOLD [US] SO" what, exactly?

@Dekes: Post 458. Your reasons for voting me were that my suspects were protected, and apparently suspecting them under such circumstances is bad. And yet you are guilty of suspecting me when I am under the same circumstances. Why so?

@BC: I still don't like that you haven't even addressed the fact that dram saved you from being lynched D1. Why do you think he said that we shouldn't lynch you?

@dram: Post 486. Your vote on me yesterday was just you hopping on the wagon.

Unvote
Vote: Ademisk

I like this wagon

What actual reasons do you have to want me dead?

@chess: Post 487. So you think I am scum because jason correctly pointed out to dram that the game is only within the scope of season 1? How would he have forced me to claim Michael (with no outside communication) while also so conveniently tying jenni into this mess (becauuse of jenni supporting me and making the point that it would be broken for scum to know what I know with which I agree). Thats pretty convinient, all of us scum right there. Doesn't it make more sense that Jason is linked to you since, like you said, he's "supporting some rather stupid thing [you] said"? And when did you get to confirming so concretely that dram/bc (and to a lesser extent vezok/dekes) to be town?

I ask for jason wagon because I had a scummy vibe from him (

rightly so mind you

)

This just screams scum. You're patting yourself on the back for something you could not have known back then (unless you are scum) and trying to use it to your credit retrospectively. Especially since you then admit how you were 'fooled' and ended up voting for HH instead.

Scumlist: Ademisk,AGar,Jenni.

Then you imply that is AGar/TL linked to us. How is he, aside from your personal vendetta with him?

Every time you post, I feel happier and happier about my vote on you.

And then lets not forget how strongly you felt about AGar not too long ago.

I haz plan

You even haz a plan for him. What is it?

Whatever, AGar.

This must've been it: moving on to the next target when your weak attack on the first one doesn't work out.

Vote: chesskid

@MOI: Post 488. In respect to jenni's and mine roles, I've proven all that she asked. Like I said, I could prove more, but consider how much the town will gain for knowing I speak the truth (not much, since you don't trust her belief in me) vs the harm that may come from me outing her role.

[Ademisk]

Lol. chess and dram, how about you answer the questions I asked.

chess, scum or not, others will eventually ask and you'll have to explain to them, why not start now? And that is such a terrible excuse to not give reasons, too.

dram, what are you talking about. You're descending to Vezok's level of gibberish, start making sense man! And I did check your ISO. Your voting history is garbage. FSH, jenni, and me twice. The only remotely sensible vote, I felt at the time, was on FSH. And even that you soon withdrew due to accusations of how worthless it was. Your 2 latest votes aren't any better.

[Ademisk]

@dram: Lets see. I asked you...
1) Why you were surprised that me and jenni lived.
2) wth you mean by "I TOLD YOU SO!"
3) Commented on your bad vote

You...
1) Did not provide any reason for your suspicion of either of us, at all. The only 'case' you had on jenni was her lack of content at the time, which she soon fixed. Also, jenni never claimed BP. I even admitted I wasn't exactly sure what that role is, and since a few people said it might mean something else, I'm in no position to draw conclusions.
2) Did not clarify what you meant by that. In your entire ISO, you never once addressed HH, and me and jenni you barely commented on. Based on MOI's latest post, I'm assuming you might've meant HH, but again, there's that thing of never addressing or commenting on him. No you did not say or imply that HH would flip town. Repeating it over and over will not make it so.
3) Are leaving your bad vote on me based on a gut feeling (for the 2nd time). And because you already assume I'm scum, you shoehorn my claim into your ideal scenario. How about you try scum hunting for real?

PoE tells me Jenni, Jason and Ademisk,

I missed this one in my previous post. How did you arrive at this conclusion? Excluding yourself, BC, Vezok, and Dekes is understandable, but where did FSH, HH, AGar, MOI, and chess go? Another 'gut' feeling decision? Face it, you're grasping at straws.


@BC: Sure . But seriously, him speaking up was probably the only thing that saved your ass D1. The fact that you have completely ignored it seems like you are avoiding it on purpose. Why is that?

[Ademisk]

Well, ok I guess I did phrase it kind of weird. Maybe there was no reason for you to directly address it, but it would help if you'd shed some light on the situation. As I've asked in post 494, why do you think he did that? What would make him so sure that you would be a bad lynch. What link do you have to him? dram's been all over me for crossconfirming but you guys don't even have that.

[Ademisk]

@MoI: I agree with whoevre said it that Vezok is VI or scum enough to have hammered HH regardless of the fakevote, so in that way I don't see it as inherently scummy. Him going for a cop was. I'll just leave it at that.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about me being sure that jenni softclaimed BP. I am not. I simply took the claim from chess and turned it around as a question. If chess thinks the softclaim was BP and you (MoI) do not, what else could it be (rhetorical)? Still would like an explanation of what the role is though, since wiki has nothing.

@Dekes: Well the thing, your vote on me today is "for the same reasons as yesterday". Your reasons yesterday was me being suspicious of the unlynchables. Therefore your point about having more info to base your vote on is moot.

@chess:

Chess, if AGar flipped scum, I'd be looking at you first. Just sayin'.

OH NOZE I SCARED

wth, you're playing like crap today. On D1 you were near the top of my towny list along with MoI. Now you are just not even trying. With posts like these you are not doing yourself any favors, and make me think more my vote is accurate.

Honestly I have better things to do with my time than make a case on a obv scum.

If you have a case on him, make it like you promised. Otherwise, get over your grudge and get back to playing for real.

[Ademisk]

I believe I joined your club when I voted you a couple of pages back.

[Ademisk]

Well Dekes, regardless of what you add to your case now, the point stands that when you voted me you had nothing other than D1 stuff, which aside from Vezok was nothing.

The questions I asked I stand by. Maybe the one I asked jenni could be considered superfluous, and even then I was trying to clarify how that role worked (lyncher gets fakeclaim, yes/no?). More importantly, my question about what the BP role is remains unanswered. You know it, Dekes, and you are using it to make a case on me, so why not explain? Coupled with your bad case on me earlier, and and you skewing the data against me (I ask superfluous questions, you don't help answer so they seem more superfluous), I wonder what you're up to. And why wouldn't I want to know what people derived from the softclaim? I could use their answer and see how well it matches to her softclaim, which could provide a lot of valuable information.

Chess is playing objectively bad today. Sure he was pretty high on my town list but I consider today's events over yesterdays. I still view dram/BC to be scummier from yesterday, but chesskid has been climbing steadily up my chart, and if this pattern continues he will have well earned that vote by the end of the day. And just because I have my vote on him now does not mean I want him lynched today, period. For that matter, I am the only other vote on him. If he was higher up, I would have thought twice.

[Ademisk]

Thanks for that find, Dekes. I did search the wiki a number of times on different days, so I can't imagine how I didn't find it, but there it is.

You hadn't posted on D2 so I couldn't have included anything from D2 now, could I?

Exactly my point. You had no reason to vote me, and yet you did. That is what I find suspicious. I don't care that you had more info later in the day, it was already irrelevant once your vote was cast.

I saw more useless questions than that. Especially the ones directed at dram. "Why are you surprised I'm still alive?" Do you really expect an answer by dram that you couldn't have figured out yourself?

No. Dram made some weird claims like his "I FUCKIN TOLD YOU SO!" thing about HH which we found to be completely false. If you do not see how questioning him is good, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm rather interested in why you keep poking others for information about jenni's role if you claim to know that role? Because it could provide valuable information? Yeah, sure, if you actually don't know jenni's role I suppose it could.

So you are saying it couldn't? So there is absolutely nothing that can be derived from seeing what people interpret that softclaim as? Think of it as the Rorschach inkblot test: people see what they want to see. I see that chesskid interpreted it as BP, whereas 'the lovers' intepretation is just as likely, but kind of contradicts our roles (but hey, if you think we're scum, these might be our fakeclaims).

This is bad, really. Again, you imply you don't believe chesskid deserved your vote in the first place but you assume he will have "earned it by the end of the day". Then why did you vote him if he apparently didn't deserve it back then?

Again, no. He did deserve the vote, I made a case for it when I voted, go read it. However, based on just that alone he does not deserve to hang. He had a clean run yesterday, but it all started failing apart after his fakehammer gambit. I thought it was worth noting that he has been in a steady decline since that point, well after he put his vote on me. He picked himself up a bit since then, but now there is this issue with him claiming jenni is BP, which, even if he's town, is bad at best since he is putting this out in the open where the mafia can see, which they clearly didn't the night before.

In any case, your 'feelings' should not have a say in the matter. My apprehension lay in his play from the previous day, but there was a case to be made for how he got too comfortable and made a slip. And, in light of the flips, some of his posts from day 1 could be viewed in a new light, like ISO 36 where with FSH being confirmed town it clearly looks like he's trying to buddy up to him. So as it stands, he is not worth a lynch (yet), but he is my strongest lead for today. Others have stronger leads from yesterday, but like I said, today's events have greater weight to me than yesterday, so until those others really start making waves (dram/BC, gotta look at those closer but I already don't like dram's "follow my gut", and AGar to a much lesser extent) I see no reason to go after them yet.

@AGar: I think it's always a good idea to unvote at L-1 (if only for a time) to try to get some more info out of the victim before they die. And even though Vezok is already on the wagon, it has been proven that you can't be too careful with such things. Plus we have plenty of time unlike yesterday.

That said, I'm not going to claim. Think about it, what could I possibly get from claiming? At best, regardless of what I claim, I won't be able to prove it (at least until tomorrow if its an active role). At worst, if I have a good role, that would paint a target on my chest at night if I somehow managed to live through the day. If you could not be convinced by someone coming over to my side after being a strong opposer, then thats your problem, because there is not a more explicit way I can 'prove' myself. She could have just as easily let me be killed and have that protection for the rest of the game, but instead she chose to get involved in this mess. If we were both scum, we would know that roles are not indicative of alignment (a la jason), so it would be foolish of us to think we were safe for long with those claims. If she were town and I was scum, then what purpose would it serve for me to know her info? I honestly don't know many roles, but I would assume a scum knowing a towny would have something to do with getting them killed, and we already have a lyncher.

[Ademisk]

Re-reading and writing a lot. Give me some time.

[Ademisk]

@dram 572: You "told us so!" that HH was town. While he did flip town, you in no way, shape, or form said that; me and MoI made sure of that. This was addressed before.

@MoI 575: I don't care if he later on acquired undeniable proof and is 100% sure I am scum. The fact is, his original reason for voting me was "for the same reasons as yesterday", and those reasons were garbage. There is absolutely no way you can twist that to make it justified. Note that I am NOT calling him out for the case that he derived from our later interactions surrounding that vote.

1) I see your reasoning, but look at it this way. Peole switch their votes all the time, and at times eventually begin defending those they voted on. I'd wager only a few of those are due to claims. Why would that be? If they are so sure that person is scum at that point, and since nothing they do can cancel out the reasons that made them suspicious by that point (they can try to explain, but everyone can explain everything away if they wanted to), why would they switch their opinion? Its because they aren't sure if they're right. Just like I'm not, but I was willing to admit it at the time because my suspicions at the time just barely crossed the line between FoS and a vote. And LOL at you for subsequently voting Vezok just so your vote won't sit inactive while you're V/LA for two days after lecturing me that "Unless you are online at MS 24/7 there is always the possibility of a lynch happening in you absence [and that is bad, if you aren't sure]".

2) Me pointing out his error is not equivalent to me making the error. He put it out there, it doesn't matter how many times we bring it up after that (which a number of others have done before me anyway).

Whats interesting is how you say that me and jenni are both good lynches for the day, but then you seperate us into different pools. You were saying we are both scum (and thus linked), but then you say we aren't by sorting us differently? Again, you don't seem sure of your own analysis.

Also, it was not dram but chess who gave jason flak D1. dram arbitrarily put jason in his PoE scum list with me and jenni and then felt vindicated when jason flipped town, despite almost no interaction, much less case-building against him. chess voted and pushed for jason's wagon.

@BC 585: Wtf is that? Why even vote when you have no way to decide between me and AGar? Especially when you imply the case on me is as strong as the case on AGar, which is him not answering a couple of questions.

@chess: I never offered to full claim myself. That was for jenni, when I offered to give up as much as she would allow me to. Myself, I only offered my flavor, not my role. Giving up my role then would have been pointless.

And what could this new insight on jason's ISO be?



Ok, so having looked further into chess, I think he is the vig/SK. It's actually pretty obvious with the trail of breadcrumbs he was leaving.

Post 182 the possibility of a vig is first brought up by him in the context of Vezok being a lyncher.

Posts 235 and 238 show him talking about how our problems (in regards to Vezok) will be solved by a vig. The thing that struck me about these posts was his conviction in that it will happen.

From post 247 he got into a discussion with HH about the best course of action for a vig. HH tries to show him that vigging a lyncher is not the best option. Chess continues this in posts 404 and 423 where he expresses his wish that Vezok would be lynched tonight, where HH further tries to educate him. jason died the next night, and it should be noted that chess tried to push for his wagon near the end of the day, so it wouldn't take a big leap to vig jason the following night, despite jason claiming doc. Having screwed up with HH, he took HH's advice and went for someone he actually thought was scum.

Post 437 could account for this 'change in vig target' with him trying to use the fact that Vezok survived where he shouldn't have to put suspicion on him, and thus make him worthy of a possible vig the next night, in the absence of his death during the previous night. Also, him being a vig would also explain his weak play at the start of D2. Having chosen correctly and vigged a scum the night before, he felt town enough to let his guard down a bit while taking flak from AGar for his fake hammer the day before.

Post 576 returns to making plans about vigging Vezok tonight. He makes it look like he is throwing these statemenets out there for the vig, but with a history of being the only one to bring up vig talk D1 at least, I'm inclined to believe he is trying to look like he is communicating with the vig and thus removing the possibility that he is the vig.

In post 622, he brings up hunting the vig/SK out of nowhere, but then softens the statement in the next post. I'm not sure what to make of this because now he would be throwing suspicion on himself if I am right about him him being a vig/sk, but if he is scum aligned then he could be trying to draw attention off of whoever is getting the most of it at the time, which was Dekes. Another theory is that he could be further trying to distance himself from the role so as to be safe the next night. Can vigs be scum aligned?

chess is always the first to bring up the vig/sk role, and he is the one that talks about it the most, by far. He also showed great interest in who the vig should kill and how the vig should operate, discussing potential vig kills on numerous occasions and stating his wishes in regards to who the vig should kill.

However, his willingness to hammer on a whim (post 587, tried but failed) and then instantly unvote when it fails does make me wonder about his allignment. Him now wanting to wait for my post after knowingly trying to hammer me earlier sounds like appeasement. I would like the insight of others to help clarify this situation.

Before anyone starts accusing me of outing PRs or role fishing, here's why I did it:
1) This conclusion would be incredibly obvious for anyone looking for a vig amongst us, so this is just a nice summary of events.
2) This is my more concrete stance on him. Since this makes him town or 3rd party at worst, there is no reason to keep my vote on him.

unvote: chess

Due to jenni's case, particularly jason's vehement defense of Dekes and no one else, I'm inclined to believe that Dekes might be scum. However, given that he is the target of a lyncher, this matter should be handled carefully. I'm going to take a look at jason myself and see what I can find. In the meantime, lets see if dram and BC can turn up something useful.

[Ademisk]

Oh right, the claim. Totally forgot about it. I guess it'll come out either way.

I'm a

Town Guard

. Knowing that jenni is Walt, my role as Michael is to protect her and try to prevent her getting killed. Ironically, she's been the one protecting me, but I stand by my claim that she is town, which I actually received in my role PM.

Meh, speculating the vig was the reason I unvoted you. I figure I would get a ton of questions for why I did, and eventually I would have to explain all that anyway, so I just saved us all the trouble. Besides, like I said, it is dead obvious, so its not like I'm outing anything.

[Ademisk]

But now the question is, how is this going to change your mind about anything?

[Ademisk]

@dram: wtf stop tunneling. Stop your retarded hammer pushing and wait for others to make posts. Instead of posting so much garbage, why don't you consider what you will do next after I flip town.

[Ademisk]

@chess: No I don't lose if jenni dies, but town may. My role is Town Guard, just like that, and jenni is Town Beloved Prince (sorry jen, but its all but confirmed now). That why why I am a guard. Being privy to such knowledge is enough to qualify as a power to me. No I do not have any extra abilities that might help me in my duties. I truly was not aware of what BP was probably because I was searching Beloved Prince, not Princ

ess

, and for the same reason Town Guard and not Guard. And dram, note how she has 'Town' in her role as well. Thats now at least 2 that do. FAKE EDIT oh look, chess does too.

@dram: haha, look at you pretending to know what you are talking about. Try http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Guard . This role does not require the AitP setup, and even if it did before, there is no reason it can't be expanded beyond that game.

Also, we have a NURSE and a FLAVOUR COP... you know, not TOWN NURSE and not TOWN FLAVOUR COP.

@Chess: I'm mostly refering to the whole "Town PR". If you're a townie, yes the word town is in there.

Yes, these do not contradict at all.

If Adem and Jenni flip town, I invite the vig/sk to drive a bullet through me.

Actually, Fuck this I'm claiming
I am Sawier, I'm half a vig along with bloodcovenent (Sayid)

Ok, so you're proposing to get vig yourself as atonement for your bad lynch? If there is ever proof of tunneling, this is it. You either shouldn't have said this, or you shouldn't have claimed. This looks pretty damn scummy.

Look, you've been pushing my lynch for no reason for 2 days. You started off with a bias against me and jenni, your only comment resembling a case against us was that we were crossconfirming each other, and everything else was your 'gut' where you made posts like "My vote is on you, which is on scum, which is therefore good" as reasons instead. On a couple of occasions you even tried to (incorrectly) use the show itself against me (which you admitted D1 you never watched).

You only addressed jason slightly, with lyncher talk, and now you claim to be the cause of his death. I find that hard to accept. You NEVER address, quoted, or mentioned HH in any way, and you are now claiming you were correct with him flipping town. And now you want to lynch me based on your own lack of knowledge of roles, knowing that in the worst case scenario, we can lose tonight? If we lynch a town and jenni dies, then 2nd night phase begins and another dies, and vig misfires twice, thats 5 dead, do the math. You guys (dram and BC) better be really damn sure of what you are doing before you potentially cost us the game. I don't see any reason not to vote you other than recent developments, but then I also don't know if you really are as VI as you seem.

@MoI: If you look closely at the post where I talked about chess vig, I actually unvoted him on that basis. But now that dram/bc are claiming vig (and with jenni's comment that it makes sense flavor-wise I have little reason to doubt it), I don't know what to think of him for the time benig.

[Ademisk]

I'd still like some insight on whether a vig can be scum aligned or if there is a vig-like role amongst scum.

@chess: There is nothing wrong with the vigging option, dram just wants to be obstinate. He thinks he will end the game in town's favor by killing me now and vigging jenni, but he is completely ignoring the fact that jenni is BP and that he must first prove that I am scum to have a shot at her. Adding on to jenni, worst case is we lose tonight (-5 townies. 1 lynched, 1 vig and jenni kill N2, 1 vig and 1 kill N3. 2 town and 2 scum remains D4. And thats not assuming Dekes and Vezok are not scum and Dekes gets killed at night = 1 town 2 scum D4). NOT lynching me (or jenni) is our only guaranteed way to not lose by D3. Consider dram instead, he is flailing pretty hard.

I'd still like to know what this new insight from jason's ISO is. It must be pretty significant for you to rearrange your suspect list like that.

@dram:

It's called bullshiting scum a false sense of security, also I claimed so some fuckers would start using their brains and hammer your obvscum ass, but apparently this town is really thick.

So you think the scum will feel safe after you 'put your life on the line' to kill them???

The evidence brought in your defense from the show is just as awful and has been dismantled piece by piece by BC, thanks to him btw. You're scum because you've played as scum, claimed like scum, reacted like scum.

Way to fail at reading again. I was talking about the the stuff you pulled off of the wiki with no regard to seasonal context. Here, let me give some examples if you can't remember.

So...
You're a mass backstabber?

You sound kinda mental to me. What with the whole son-obsession...

and stuff you've twisted to fit your needs
ISO 70: "does walt makes sense as a beloved princess?
ISO 71: "after checking, No he does not fit at all"

And here is you admitting to never watching the show

I havent watched lost, how would I know, it's not divided on the wiki :S

I am non-counterclaimed

,

the only one left who could CC me is Dekes and he's the lyncher target, therefore obv-townie.

Underlined: Remember how Vezok was not counterclaimed despite HH having an almost exact match? Yea, good times...
Bolded: There's a lot wrong with this, but lets focus on this interesting scum-slip. "Dekes is obv-townie, therefore he could not be a vig". Why would being an obv-town disqualify him from being a vig (and why must you assume he is an obv town by virtue of being a lyncher target, chess and MoI have not claimed so they could also potentially CC, etc)? As far as I know, vig IS town. Sounds like you're hinting at a SK at best, but even then you already claimed vig so you're screwed.

I can't believe you're still going on about HH. Are you purposely being unreceptive? I said YOU + JENNI + JASON were scum. Therefore, HH was town in my view. How the fuck can you not understand?

By that logic there were 8 others you didn't put on that list. You're going to feel super vindicated when someone else flips town huh? For that matter, why do you insist on sticking with your first trio of scum who you guessed at waaaay back, 5 days into this game? Are you going to tell me absolutely nothing new came up in the month since then that could either add to that list or remove from it (even temporarily)?

[Ademisk]

Thanks for the game Reck, it was fun even when I didn't know that flavor. But I've been wondering about the 'None, yet' part under mine and jenni's role. What would those additional powers have been and how would they have been activated?