Succession Mafia (OVER!)

[Yosarian2]

Interesting, vezo.

Do you know if they would have been able to recruit night zero? Is it a "cult recruiter" type mechanic, where we should be trying to lynch the original scum first, or should we be looking for a plausible recruit to lynch?

[Yosarian2]

Man, this thread exploded. 16 pages now? Heh, I didn't even realize my first post was on page 5; I thought there was only 1 page to the thread when I made that post.

Ok, let me get caught up. :initiate massive catch up posts mode:

-Not really sure I like Serephem's attack on Vezo. Normally, role-based information that we're dealing with a cult would definatly be worth sharing early, because that changes the whole way the town has to scum hunt. Granted, in this game it's not really necessary, but I strongly dislike him voting Vezo because of that, and because he thinks "Vezo is impossible to read". It especally seems like an anti-town move on his part if Vezo was crumbing a non-vanillia role.

Fos:serephem

-Friend votes Sereph, for about the same reason I just gave.

-Erg0 votes Sereph, also for the same reason

-Inhim votes Erg0. Huh? I don't get this vote.

-Huh. Sereph asks to replace out, because his personal dislike for Vezo is making it hard for him to play properly. Ok, I'll buy that.

unfos:sereph

I don't think that's aynthing like a good reason to replace out, but I'm going to call his early vezo vote pretty null now.

-Zwet's attack on Furclaw makes sense to me. Not sure if I agree with it, but I can see where he's coming from. Gives me a town vibe on Zwet right now.

Just drop the attitude. You are inhibiting me from having any sort of posting quality whatsoever.

hahah. Wow, that's an amazingly terrible excuse.

ok. i'm going to step out for a second. i am town/townie, just trust me on this.

Lol. Man, this guy is entertaining.

holster

you all want me to claim yet?

You know, it would be hillarious if, before this game, Furclaw was told by his scum buddy "Hey, I've got an idea; how about you act like the most absurdly bad VI ever, then no one will think you're scum".

I don't actually think that happened, of course, but this whole series of posts is just absurd.

Oh, on a side note, Erg0's reaction to Furcolow also looks town in post 103 (unless Furcolow flips scum, of course).

-Chronopie makes a rather contentless bandwagon-join-vote on the furcolow wagon, post #118. It's not a big tell, but I kind of have a bad vibe about this post, combined with the fact that I don't think he's done anything else this game.

-Furcolow claims to be an unspecified "power role" even though he's still nowhere near a lynch. Ugh. So bad, in so many ways.

I'd rather we look for the brothers first so we don't have to deal with finding the recruits later. Also lynching plausible recruits are dumb. That's not actual hunting for scum (I just realize you probably meant look for people who are already recruited to lynch. Still dumb, as that's not fixing the roof leak, but rather, putting a few band-aids on it and calling it a night until the next morning when the mafia will just take those band-aids off).

That is what I was asking. If the brothers work like cult recruiter(s), and no one else is going to be recruited if they get lynched, then we need to find and lynch them first, yes; in fact, I said that in the very post you just quoted. Not all cults work like that though, and since Vezo was claiming to have inside knowledge about how the cult works, I thought I would ask.

Of course, that was when i hadn't seen pages 2-5 of the thread and had missed all the other drama; I probably wouldn't have even bothered to make that post if I'd seen that.

So if I'm a townie, I should say I'm a power role, and if I'm a power role, I should say I'm a townie

(slaps forehead)

No.

If you're pro-town, you should never lie.

Also, if you're a townie, you should almost never claim. If you're a power role, you should almost never claim unless you're about to get lynched and you think a claim might stop that, or if you have information you think will really help the town. Also, claiming on day 1 is almost always a terrible play, unless you absolutly have to because you're about to get lynched.

I don't need to "get better", players like you need to get on my level

Um, Porochaz is a pretty good player. Just based on all your posts this game, you are not. We don't need anyone else to "get on your level", trust me on this.

I am a power role
stop voting me please

this one?

So if I'm a townie, I should say I'm a power role, and if I'm a power role, I should say I'm a townie

or this one?

You know, up until these two posts, i was on the "Furcolow is a VI who's probably town" side of the fence. These two posts, though, where he's basically combining "don't vote for me, I'm a power role" scare tactics with "I'm probably lying, so I get to claim whatever I want later" BS scummy WIFOM stuff is really making me suspect him, and tempting me to at least wagon him to force a real claim instead of all this scummy-as-hell-BS.

And...then he claims vanilla townie in post 186, after getting a wagon off of himself by claiming power role. Urge to lynch...rising...

I'd prefer to lynch a lurker than a liar if the liar is lying like I'm lying

Urge to lynch, rising...

Whew, ok. I've now read up to the end of page 8. Going to continue in my next post.

[Yosarian2]

Catch up, continued:

I hate them too usually but I felt that shitty of a case required it.

NO CASE EVER RQUIRES QUOTE STRIPES.

I realize the irony in respond to this post using "quote stripes", whatever the hell that means, but I dislike the way animorph decided to comment on the way friend is formating his posts (especially when it's perfectly reasonable to defend yourself by quoting the attacks on you, one by one, and then shooting them down) instead of actually responding to the context of the debate.

NO

CASE

EVER

RQUIRES

QUOTE

STRIPES.

ONLY SCUM SHOULD WANT TO USE BULLSHIT COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE WAY POSTS ARE FORMATTED TO AVOID SAYING ANYTHING RELEVANT.

Now, can we please stop bitching about "quote stripes", and play the game?

Anyways Prozac you have no response to the whole "absolutes" business me and Faraday called you out on I see

...what? Prozac just spent several posts arguing why he thought it was a scum tell, and he made sense to me. You could disagree with those if you want, I don't really think it's a strong scumtell myself, but why would you claim he "has no response"?

Fos:friend

Porozac, I honestly will not read your posts if you do that quote stripes bullshit. It makes me want to have a seizure.

VOTE: Furcolow

SCUM LYNCH ALL SYSTEMS GO!!!!!!!!!

i'm going to heavily dissect this post. Mixes "prozac" with "porochaz" forming "porozac" which is indicative of being a scumbuddy to me. He is trying to be friendly, but is also trying to be formal, as he is getting onto him over immature reasons. His aggressiveness could be townie, or it could be scum trying to act like a townie. I'm leaning towards the latter considering this post was directed towards porochaz, but ends up in voting me which is the primary bandwagon. My bandwagon has been dead for multiple pages, why try to bring it back now?

I'll tell you why. Scum. This is a scum-driven attempt to re-bandwagon me because I have been mixing up their radar on my claiming of both townie and a power role. They are confused whether or not to kill me, so why not get their weakest player, Gandalf, to try and get the wagon rolling again?

I'm kind of surprised to hear myself saying this, but I agree with Furcolow here. This post by gandalf is scummy as hell. Well, not the "prozac/porochaz" thing, but the way he echos other people's scummy complaints about "quote stripes" is scummy, the way he comes up with an excuse to not read someone's posts is scummy, and the way he says absolutly nothing relevent about anyone in the game, using only a "I don't like your posts formatting style" bullshit line but dosn't comment on anyone's alignment at all, and then votes for no reason is really scummy.

FOS:Gandalf

Four posts does not a scum read make.

And that's kind of a bizzare defense for you to make on gandalf, animoph. You can get a "scum read" on someone off of one post, easily; do you really think that you can only reasonably suspect someone after they've made 5 or more posts or something?

I really don't like this post, and if gandalf is scum, I'm going to want to take a closer look at amiorph next.

Ugh. Post 248, Furcolow claims vanilla townie, again, even though he's again at only lynch -6. Man do I want to lynch this guy.

gandalf, you still have failed to make an actual case on anyone (and yes I know I haven't either).

I only just popped in, dude. And I dislike wall o text cases. Save those for the newbie games. Seriously, I can't imagine why anyone would NOT vote for FC.

Frankly, at this point, the one thing that's making me hesitate from voting furcolow once I finish my read-though is that I'm trying to decide if you look even scummer then he does.

Can you explain why you think furcolow is scum?

you're still scum gandalf, so shut up

I KNOZ. OH SHIT. DID I JUST SAY THAT?

For the record, I've seen scum make this kind of "I'm scum hahaha neah just kidding" post more often then I've seen town do it. They usually think they're being clever in the process.

Like I said earlier zwet is likely scum anyways so I'm not too bothered.

Continued bad vibes on Friend.

I get some (mild) pro-town vibes from Dramonic's post 299, where he declares Zwet, Furcolow, and Friend town. I don't agree with him on 2 of those (the only one of those 3 I have a town read on at the moment Zwet), but I don't see why Dramonic would do that as scum.

In post 361, ooba makes a scum list, listing Lord Gurgi as scum without giving reasons. I don't necessarily have a problem with that kind of post, although I'd be interested to hear why. However, this two posts later, again giving no reason, Friend votes Gurgi. The timing kind of weirds me out; makes me wonder if Friend is looking for some wagon that he'll get support for, not necessarily looking for scum. I mean, he obviously wasn't convinced by ooba's logic, since there wasn't any, so I'm curious as to why he joined the wagon then.

[Yosarian2]

Summery of my summery (for the lazy, for those who DON'T READ LONG THREADS, and for myself to look back at later)

People who look really scummy to me:
1. Gandeldorf
2. Furcolow
3. Friend

People who look midly scummy to me:
1. Chronopie
2. Animporph

Vote:Gandeldorf

[Yosarian2]

EXPLAIN WHY YOU HAVE A TOWN READ ON ME plz

huh? I already did explain that. This was when I first got it:

-Zwet's attack on Furclaw makes sense to me. Not sure if I agree with it, but I can see where he's coming from. Gives me a town vibe on Zwet right now.

Furcolow voted for Seraphim right after Seraphim wanted to replace out, without any good reasons. You instantly voted him for that. Furcolow's vote there seemed anti-town, and your vote made a lot of sense. It feels like the kind of scumhunting I've seen you do as town before.

The impression that you're are actually scumhunting continued after that. You spent the next several posts trying to keep the focus on Furcolow, and you did it in a way that focused on the actually anti-town and scummy things he did, rather then get bogged down into personal attacks like he was trying to troll you into doing. A lot of your other posts were pretty effective scumhunting, in your normal style. For example:

gandalf, you still have failed to make an actual case on anyone (and yes I know I haven't either).

That's part of the reason I think gandalf is scum, as i explained using about 4 times that many words, heh.

(shrug) I've played with you a bunch of times, I think I have a pretty good meta read on you by this point, zwet, and I think you're probably town. A lot of your reactions to stuff that happened in the thread seemed to come from a pro-town place.

[Yosarian2]

In post 361, ooba makes a scum list, listing Lord Gurgi as scum without giving reasons. I don't necessarily have a problem with that kind of post, although I'd be interested to hear why. However, this two posts later, again giving no reason, Friend votes Gurgi. The timing kind of weirds me out; makes me wonder if Friend is looking for some wagon that he'll get support for, not necessarily looking for scum. I mean, he obviously wasn't convinced by ooba's logic, since there wasn't any, so I'm curious as to why he joined the wagon then.

lrn2read?

Aim: Lord Gurgi

General vibe of not wanting to step on anyone's toes and draw attention to himself.

I agreed with this vibe, I aimed.

Ooba didn't make any new arguments when he called Gurgi scum IN POST 361, which is what I just said in the part that you quoted. You voted Lord Gurgi in post 363. You're right, Ooba made a decent arguemnt earlier, but that dosn't explain the timing.

Starting to seriously think that Yos2 got recruited. That catchup post was full of fluffy accusations on easy targets.

This looks scummy to me.

1. As has already been establish, town shouldn't even be looking for recruits right now, town should be trying to find the recruiters.

2. "Fluffy accusations against easy targets"? I attacked 5 different people in two posts, many of which have never been attacked before. Obviously I'm not going correct about all of them, because I doubt there's that many scum on day 1 of a cult game, but nonetheless.

3. Just to be clear, how the hell are you an easy target? Several people have declared you to be town for basically no good reason; it's very unlikely you'll be lynched today. Nonetheless, I think you've done some scummy, so I said so.

4. How are any of my accusations "fluffy"? Better yet, explain to me which of my accusations you disagree with the substance of.

[Yosarian2]

yos, YOU CAN'T READ ME! MY META IS UNBREAKABLE DIE DIE DIE

Everyone is readable. To one degree or another.

[Yosarian2]

Most of the comments about Furcolow. Saying "Man I want to lynch this guy" after his VT claim.

That's pretty much the exact opposite of "fluffy".

1. He claimed "power role" to get people to unvote him.
2. He hinted he might be lying.
3. He made his "I might be lying" hint even more clear.
4. He claimed townie. Twice. While still no where near a lynch.

Fluffy? He lied about his role to get people to unvote him, and then unclaimed, and claimed to be vanilla. Are you seriously claiming that's a "fluffy" case? Honestly, I can't imagine any pro-town person reading that post and not suddenly having a deep, burning desire to lynch Furcolow on the spot.

1. As has already been establish, town shouldn't even be looking for recruits right now, town should be trying to find the recruiters.

But when we find someone who feels like they've been recruited (like yourself) it's stupid to overlook said person because we want to find the recruiters.

Yeah, bullshit. I don't believe that you actually think that.

The "scum might want to recruit experenced players like Yosarian" is actually a reasonable argument, and one I expected to get on day 1 when I signed up for the game. But you don't make it for the first 16 pages, and then "suddenly think of it" right after I start posting? I don't buy that at all. And then, when I start seriously attacking you, you step it up from a vauge

is it too WIFOM-y to suggest that scum would recruit a better/more well-known player like Yos2 or LG or Prozac?

To suddenly just being sure I was recruited?

I think it's much more likely that you suddenly "thought" of that argument as a way to discredit me. And, if you are scum, it would be a perfect way to do it; you get to discredit my arguments and plant suspicious on me for later use, and you don't even have worry about being proven wrong because the town isn't going to actually be looking to lynch plasuable recruits for several days.

[Yosarian2]

Doing an ISO on friend now:

The whole way he handled the "Vezo/Serephem/Serephem's replacement" thing, where first he declared he didn't have a problem with Vezo's play, then attacked Serephem for his Vezo vote for entirly reasonable reasons, and then unvoted Serephem and "declared him town" after he replaced out on day 1 seems somewhat townish.

I don't really like or get the way he voted Zwet for Zwet's entierly reasonable furcolow vote. Friend, can you explain this? If you thought Serephm's slot was obviously town after he replaced out, then why didn't you like Zwet's vote on Furcolow, when it was based on Furcolow voting Serephem after he asked to replace out?

VEZO'S NOT SMART ENOUGH TO FAKE A SOFTCLAIM LIKE THAT IMO.

Heh. Making this argument is probably a mild pro-town tell from Friend.

I also would like a response to the point I quoted earlier, Friend. Why did you say Porochaz hadn't responded to your questions about his tell, when he clearly had?

Freinds attack on Gandledof seems reasonable.

I don't mind him being opposed to the Furc wagon because of a gut read.

As I mentioned before, the timing of some of his stuff seems odd, like his Lord Gurgi vote, and the timing of his "Yos is a recruit" theory being incredibly convenient.

Meh. I kind of hate to do this, because I was just starting to get a good "righteous anger" thing going, but after that ISO, I'm no longer really wanting to lynch Friend today. Some of his stuff bothers me, but some of it seems like it could have come from a townie. I would like him to answer those questions though.

[Yosarian2]

1. As has already been establish, town shouldn't even be looking for recruits right now, town should be trying to find the recruiters.

Oh really. And how the heck are you gonna tell the difference, pray tell? Look at you, trying to 'lead the town' with useless wisdom that can only come from a pretty silver fountain of BULL@#$&. There is no way to tell, you're just trying to look good and be 'pro-town' so that you can survive the day without suspicion.

Are you reading the thread?

Friend made an argument aimed at trying to find the guy who got recruited last night. That's what we're talking about, that's the entire point of the discussion, is I was trying to figure out if Friend was acting in a pro-town way or not by trying specifically to find the recruitee.

I don't know what this "leading the town" BS is either, unless it's one of those idiotic "Hey, look, someone's scumhunting and using big words, let's lynch him" pieces of garbage arguments.

[Yosarian2]

What RC said.

aim, holster: Yosarian2

What RC said? RC just made an incredibly dumb argument that only makes sense if he didn't read the thread at all and didn't have any idea what you and I had just been talking about, and you're going to just blindly follow him without making your own case? Seriously?

[Yosarian2]

[1]

gandalf5166 (Yosarian2)

Will somebody tell me WHAT THE @#$^ these people are doing??

Thanks, that's all.

I'm voting for someone who's probably scum. And, from the way you reacted to my posts by voting me for a reason that made no sense at all, I think there's a chance that he's your recruiter; I would expect a recruit to flip out and go after someone who's attacking his recruiter, because the recruit has to keep his recruiter alive, and it feels like that's what happening right now. So I think I'm going to keep voting him for a while.

Well, unless Friend keeps acting scummy and changes my mind about him again. For example, he still has completly refused to answer any of my questions.

vote: yosarian2

Heh, another party heard from. Are you sure you guys aren't all scum together? I mean, you obviously can't be, but there are so many people in this game that I'm having a hard time seeing as town right now.

[Yosarian2]

Gurgi: Pretty much the same as in this post.

Summery of my summery (for the lazy, for those who DON'T READ LONG THREADS, and for myself to look back at later)

People who look really scummy to me:
1. Gandeldorf
2. Furcolow
3. Friend

People who look midly scummy to me:
1. Chronopie
2. Animporph

Vote:Gandeldorf

I moved Friend down to the "midly scummy" a catagory after an ISO read of him, because he did some good stuff in the very early part of the game, although if he doesn't start answering questions and making sense soon I might end up voting him; the reason he gave for voting me was really terrible, in a "I can't see any pro-town person ever making that post" kind of way. Not really a fan of RC either; the reflexive way he attacked me for a terrible reason right after my analysis posts makes me wonder if he's trying to chainsaw defend someone, probably either gandeldorf or Friend (although considerign the number of people I've recently attacked, it could be anyone). If I'm right about that, though, that would make RC the recruitee, not the recruiter, so he's not someone we'd want to lynch today.

[Yosarian2]

What questions would you like me to answer, yos?

Well, let's start with this.

I don't really like or get the way he voted Zwet for Zwet's entierly reasonable furcolow vote. Friend, can you explain this? If you thought Serephm's slot was obviously town after he replaced out, then why didn't you like Zwet's vote on Furcolow, when it was based on Furcolow voting Serephem after he asked to replace out?

Also, you need to explain your completly irrational seeming vote for me, of course.

Additionally, the response you've given to the pressure on you is...well, it's scummy. Although I can't place my finger on why. It feels just like the way experienced scum would react to light accusations of them - shooting it down mercilessly with more aggression than logic.

I did shoot down the only thing that's anywhere near to a case on me, RC's vote, with logic.

You voted me "based on what RC said", which dosn't make any sense unless you didn't know what it was that you and I had just been discussion (In other words, it dosn't make any sense at all), and Furcolow voted me without giving any reason at all.

Of the 3 people voting for me, 1 gave a horrible reason, and the other two people were already on my scum list and gave no reason at all for voting me that made any sense. Basically, I called you and Furcolow scum, and the response from both of you was to vote me for no logical reason. And...you're surprised that I responded with "aggression"?

[Yosarian2]

My vote on you was completely logical. RC's vote was not illogical - town can't tell the difference between recruiter and recruited and should thusly just lynch whoever is the scummiest.

Um, the post of yours I was responding to was "experenced players are more likely to be recruited by the scum". The entire point of your first post was to find someone who had been recruited. And then you later accused me of being a recruit.

YOU were the one who was trying to find the recruit, not me. If that was RC's case, then he should have voted you, since you are the one who was trying to make a distinction between recruit and recruited. I was trying to figure out if you had pro-town motivations behind your moves. That was the context behind which I tried to figure out if town should be trying to find the recruit or not, was in analyzing your own self-professed attempt to find the recruit.

So basically you are voting me because I was trying to figure out if your action was pro-town or not.

You trying to lead the town and divert attention from someone who has a high chance of being the recruited (you) is scummy.

And now, right after your whole theory about how town can't tell the difference between recruit and recruiter, you call me the recruit, again. Basically completely contradicting the entire point you made in your last paragraph.

Argh, the complete lack of logic here is just painful. You made an argument that "experienced players might be more likely to be recruited" or whatever. Then, when I questioned you following that line of reasoning by wondering why you're looking for the recruit instead of the recruiter, you tried to pretend that there was no difference between the two, even though your entire case was based on the difference between the two. And now you're trying to have it both ways in the exact same post!

Basically, I called you and Furcolow scum, and the response from both of you was to vote me for no logical reason.

This is a blatant lie (well maybe not for Furc, but with regards to me). Again, that's not the reason I voted you and you're spinning my actions to fit your case against me.

Neither you nor your buddy RC have yet to give anything even remotely close to be a logical reason to vote for me, and I think you know it.

[Yosarian2]

This is where he sees yos2, his scumbuddy, has made a "case" on me to try and get an easy ass mislynch

A "case" on you? What's with the quote marks? You lied about your role, on day 1, in order to get yourself out of trouble, and then you weaseled your way out of that lie in an incredibly scummy way, and then you claimed vanilla. Do I actually have to list all the reasons this behavior is scummy?

Except, fortunately for you, the way gandalf5166 has acted. Only reason I'm not voting for you right now is that he's managed to act even more scummy, which is a pretty impressive feat. Can someone please explain to me why we haven't lynched that guy yet?

If you want to try to lynch me, then make a case on me (and not "he's trying to get a mislynch" bs, because from where I'm sitting, I'm having a hard time believing that hanging you is at all likely to be a "mislynch"). Otherwise, I'd suggest at least trying to defend your horribly anti-town and incredibly scummy behavior so far this game, especally the claims. Frankly, if you just hadn't claimed at all, i wouldn't be nearly as suspicious of you right now.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, sure, I agree that my claim was bad, but it got pressure of of a mislynch so that's good.

Um. Lying to avoid getting pressured is what scum do, especially lying about your role to avoid pressure and prevent being lynched, and especially making vauge undefined claims to make it harder to be caught in a lie later. Town should never do that kind of thing, wheras it's pretty much standard operating procedure for scum. Town should also not claim at lynch -6, while it dosn't really affect some one way or the other; town should avoid making vauge "i'm a power role" claims that only help the scum find targets without giving the town any information, and town should never ever claim vanilla. Basically, every single step of your behavior there is something I consider much more likely to come from scum then from town.

Of course, the biggest thing here is the lying, then the weaseling out of the lie, then the changing your story to avoid being caught in a lie later. I know some people will look at that kind of stuff and assume you're "too scummy to be scum" or some crap like that, but I never let myself get WIFOM'd into ignoring massive brazen scum behavior.

Instead of attacking your attacker, though

Hehe. The irony is amusing here, considering the fact that you're the one "attacking the attacker" here.

why is it so unreasonable for you and chronopie to be scumbuddies?

Eh? It's not, especially. Of course, it's also not unreasonable for you to be buddies with chronopie, or with friend, or with most of the people in the game. There are some people I'm pretty sure you're not scum with, but at this point, anyone can propose pretty much any scum pair and it'll be "not unreasonable".

Of course, saying "A could be scum with B" is not actually evidence of anything, in a game when we have so little information about who could be scum with who at this point. That kind of argument is only at all useful when you either have already caught a scum, or it's endgame and there aren't that many plausible pairs left.

Does yosarian lash out at people when he needs to be defending himself as scum?

Um...you're the one who's lashing out when you should be defending yourself, furcolow. I never let being attacked stop me from scumhunting, if that's what you're asking. This is an especially confusing argument to me since I made the cases on both you and on Friend before I was attacked by either one of you.

Does he ignore any sort of defense as town?

I don't even know what this means. I pretty much always defend myself, irrespective of alignment, and I've been doing so this game as well.

[Yosarian2]

yosarian you are such a liar
i was voting you on august 30th pretty much before you ever posted

On the 30th, you voted me because I hadn't voted anyone yet. I didn't have a problem with that vote at all; that's a perfectly reasonable reason to vote on day 1.

Of course, that's not why you re-voted me a few days later. That vote looks like OMGUS.

also in defense of your insane argument against me, scum would not come clean that they were avoiding a mislynch as town like i have, they would try to stick by their insanity

So, if you were scum you wouldn't have admitted that you acted in a scummy way by lying in order to avoid being lynched? Sorry, don't buy that kind of WIFOM at all. Basically, unclaiming the way you would gave you, as scum, a lot more flexibility; if you had stuck to a power role claim, you probably would have to claim in more detail tomorrow or so, and that would have got tricky. What you did is exactly what any scum would love to do, if they believed they would get away with it. Whereas there's no reason for town to do any of those things.

[Yosarian2]

or i could claim that i was a veteran, with a passive ability
i could claim i was a vig and didn't want to mishit
i could claim i was a medic and say i protected someone who wasnt killed (which would be obvious)
any more brilliant ideas mr scum ?

You've deliberately left yourself enough wiggle room so you could still change your claim to any one of those things, depending on how the game is going and which claim would help you (and/or your scum team) more. Once you start openly lying and the town lets you get away with it,you can get away with doing pretty much anything and changing your story whenever it suits you. Which is a pretty sweet position for you to be in as a scum, gives you a huge amount of flexability and a lot of options about what you want to fake claim next. Of course, if you were town, it only hurts the town, since now we can never take anything you say about your role seriously, but if you're scum, your play defiantly works to the advantage of your scum team. Unless town calls you out on it today, of course.

[Yosarian2]

Much as I usually like voting dramonic, I think he's probably town this game.

[Yosarian2]

I still really don't get the wagon on dramonic at all; yeah, he hasn't said that much, but the stuff he has said has been town-ish, and there are certainly worse and scummier lurkers (like gandalf, obv). Actually, I think the best bet right now is that dramonic and Andrius are both town, although I'm less certain about Andrius.

[Yosarian2]

This is a Mafia-flavored game, not a Hollywood-flavored game. He'd be guarding the Don, not some blonde bimbo.

IMO, this line doesn't.

Go read the sample PR role PM again you scholar.

RC looks like scum here. I get the feeling he spent a lot of time studying the sample role PM.

Dram: What does your ability say, exactly? What happens if you're protecting someone and they get recruited?

[Yosarian2]

This is a Mafia-flavored game, not a Hollywood-flavored game. He'd be guarding the Don, not some blonde bimbo.

IMO, this line doesn't.

Go read the sample PR role PM again you scholar.

RC looks like scum here. I get the feeling he spent a lot of time studying the sample role PM.

Well, not especially. I took the time to READ it if that's what you mean, instead of just skimming it like I'm sure some of you did.

---

But

your point is still dissonant

(i.e. doesn't make sense), because of the following:

1. If I was scum I would already KNOW the scum role PM. Yes? Yes.
2. If I was town, I would already KNOW the town role PM. k? so...

How does studying and making points on the SCUM role PM make me SCUM? Wouldn't I have to dissect the TOWN one to be considered scum? You've got it backwards.

It's not that. The whole idea of sample role PM is that it exists to give something for the scum to role claim if needed, and to prevent the scum from being caught out by details in town role PM's they otherwise might not know.

The vibe I got from that post of your is that you were using it for exactly that; I think you "analyzed" Dram's claim, not by looking at your own role PM, but by looking at the sample town role PM. Also, you were prepared and ready to use the town sample role PM as a defense.

None of that is damning or anything, but it is the kind of thing I would expect to see scum do more often then town.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, this is a much better wagon.

Aim:Furcolow

It's worth mentioning that, even after I pointed out that we need as few people to claim as possible today because this is a cult game, he's trying to get more people to claim.

[Yosarian2]

my vote is going to remain on you until you claim, andrius. i'm sorry, bro, i like you, but you're in a situation where you need to claim or be lynched.

Do you actually think he's scummier then dramonic, or are you just trying to get everyone to claim so you'll know who you can and can't recruit?

[Yosarian2]

Nah guys, pretty sure Furc is town. The way LG hopped on that wagon is weaksauce.

Eh. LG's been making more sense this game then many people, including with that vote.

[Yosarian2]

It's not like we are going to lynch furc now.

Hmm? Why not?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not full-claiming until L-1.

fair enough

aim: Andrius

This is so incredibly anti-town.

Also, RC really seems to be trying to derail the furcolow wagon. If furcolow is the recruiter, RC is probably the recruit.

[Yosarian2]

And try to smear my name all you want now, Yos. But when you flip red, I'll be the one holding my belly and having a nice chuckle.

Hah. I think you know I'm town, RC. I can tell, because you haven't bothered to actually make any kind of case against me, or tried to seriously attack me. You just keep trying to smear my name to try to make my attacks against you and/or your buddy less credible.

[Yosarian2]

Yes I have inside information. I am breadcrumbing without claiming my role cause it is pointless to claim the role.
Also probably being doc protected will help.

For the love of Christ, COULD PEOPLE PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT THEIR ROLES?

How many times do I have to say this?

Either the cult can't recruit power roles, in which case it's incredibly important that we not let them know who's a power role and who's a VT, or they can, in which case it's also important we not let them know. Frankly, part of the reason i want to lynch furcolow is that he claimed vanilla, which means even if he is town, he's now a liability. That's only a small part of the reason, the bigger reason is that he's probably scum, but frankly we're in a position where every person who claims and dosn't get lynched lowers the town's odds of winning by a great deal.

[Yosarian2]

Andrius, without revealing explicit details on your role, are you pushing dram because of a guilty/equivalent?

THAT IS ROLEFISHING, CHRONOPIE.

This...dosn't make any sesne, Andrius.

If you're town, you ALREADY CLAIMED everything important about your role. Scum now know you're a power role, and an information role. If you don't want to tell the details to make scum a little more paranoid and to make it harder for scum to avoid investigations, that's fine, but "do you have rolebased information against Dram" is a perfectly reasonable question, and a yes or no to that wouldn't tell scum any more then they already know (which is that you claimed info role), but it would help the town out hugely.

The votes on my have little to no justification, other than disagreement with my playstyle.

Lying about your role, claiming for no reason, claiming vanilla, and then rolefishing for no reason and all that garbage, is not something you can get away with by just calling it your "playstyle". That's all inherently scummy stuff, pretty much regardless of what your "playstyle" is.

I still want you to answer my question. When you voted for Andrius, did you want to lynch him, did you think he was more scummy then Dram, the person you'd been voting for before? Or did you just want to get more people to claim? From where I'm sitting, it really looks like the second, but I want to hear an explanation from you.

[Yosarian2]

It makes perfect sense. There were no kills, so a Tracker has NO useful information whatsoever. And since there aren't many other informative roles out there, it was perfectly obvious.

I didn't want you to reveal that much, Andrius.

You didn't need to say what kind of information role you were. I just wanted a yes or no. "No, I don't have any role information on dramonic, I just think he's scum for in-thread reasons" would have been fine; then the scum still don't know if you're a cop with an innocent on someone else, or a watcher, or a tracker, or a gunsmith, or whatever.

Not that there's that much difference between a tracker claim and an info role claim at this point, but still.

GODDAMMIT I HATE DRAMONIC'S PLAY. BUT FAKING A GUILTY ON HIM IS BAAAD. I STILL BELIEVE, 100% THAT HE IS SCUM, BUT FAKING A GUILTY IN CASE I'M WRONG ISN'T THE WAY TO GO. BESIDES, THERE'S NO BOUNCE-BACK FROM A FAKE GUILTY.

Oh, yeah, of course not. A pro-town info role should never do anything dumb like that.

I pulled an innocent on a player who isn't dramonic, but I have doubts about that too. Why? Because his play is shit. Because my investigation-flavor results lead me to believe that someone else visited him after I did. Hence me asking Flay about NAR. Also, I'm led to believe that there are 2 competing scum factions out there, based on bits of flavor, etc.

Whatever. I considered faking a guilty on RC as a eat-this-you-dick, but I decided not to for the betterment of the town, in case my read on him is wrong.

Look, if we're not lynching Dramonic I'll hop to Furcolow. I agree with tossing the VT, and Furc's play is SHIT.

Wait...are you a tracker, or did you get an innocent on someone? You don't actually have to answer that, but I'm officially confused.

Despite that, though, I'm pretty confident Andreus is a town info role, especlly after this post, and everyone should get off him ASAP.

I also think that Furcolow continuing to try to lynch Andreus day 1 after he claimed town information role is yet another reason to think Furcolow is scum.

[Yosarian2]

Holster

aim: dramonic

Reason should be obvious.

Ok, explain it to me then. Why do you think dramonic is scum?

P.S. I wash my hands of any furcolow lynch.

What do you mean, you "wash your hands of it"? You've been trying to prevent a furcolow lynch for quite a while now, Reaper, and you can't just "wash your hands" of that so you don't look bad when he's lynched and flips cult leader.

[Yosarian2]

holster
aim dramonic

Make up your minds.
Dram is scum, andrius is scum, dram scum, andy scum. WTF?
Choose a person and lynch him.

Um, what do you think, Vez? And why do you think those are the only two options?

I can tell you, we're absolutely not lynching the claimed cop Andrius today.

I don't really see a dramonic lynch either at this point, although after a few days of him not saying much, I'm less willing to defend him now, and want to hear more from him about who he thinks is scum. Still, at the moment, I think we have better suspects.

[Yosarian2]

Furc is town,

And then, literally 1 minute later:

What do you mean, you "wash your hands of it"? You've been trying to prevent a furcolow lynch for quite a while now, Reaper, and you can't just "wash your hands" of that so you don't look bad when he's lynched and flips cult leader.

Just realized; this statement would be a pretty epic bus.

So, you're defending Furc, you're sure he "is town", but you still are trying to connect me with him at the same time to try to make me look bad when he flips scum, hmm? Interesting.

Otherwise, if you're that sure Furc is town, I don't know why you'd be trying to figure out who was bussing him. Dosn't make sense.

[Yosarian2]

IMO, dram is scum. We lynch him, and if he is town, we lynch Andrius. Problem solved.

Also, proven role =/= proven alignment.

So...you want to lynch the claimed bodyguard and then the claimed cop, for no apparent reason?

What would dram flipping town have to do with Andrius's alignment? Andrius made quite clear that he dosn't have any role based info on dram.

[Yosarian2]

I have a

fantastic

idea. Have dramonic bodyguard Andrius. Hopefully you can work out the logic from here.

This is a reasonable idea, at least if the scum can't recruit power roles and have to kill them instead (which is what my hunch would be).

If Andruis is nightkilled tonight, then we assume Dram was BSing about being a bodyguard and lynch him tommorow.

If Andrius is not killed, then either A: Dramonic soaks up a nightkill and keeps the cop alive, avoiding a mislynch; B: Dramonic is scum and decided to not kill Andrius to make himself look better, in which case the cop lives another night and we get another investigation, or C: Dramonic is town and the scum don't try to kill the cop tonight in order to try to mislynch dramonic tommorow instead, in which case the cop lives another night and we get another investigation.

Looks like a win/win/win scenerio for the town to me.

Franky, especially now that Furcolow and RC have forced our cop to claim on day 1 for horrible reasons, I don't think we can afford to lynch our claimed protective role today if we want our cop to live for another day.

[Yosarian2]

I do want to get a firm commintment before we end the day that Dram will protect Andrius tonight, no matter what his personal feelings are, and a response from Dramonic making clear that he understands that if Andrius is nightkilled tonight that Dramonic will be lynched tommorow, no question.

Dramonic, please respond to this post saying that you understand, and please do it fast. We're running out of daylight here.

[Yosarian2]

I thought the point of this game was to lynch scum not let scum go and find someone else to lynch

The point of the game is to win. Lynching the cop on day 1 is generally not condusive to the town winning. Lynching a claimed protective role on day 1 in a situation when the cop has already claimed is almost as bad.

I'm not saying I would never do it, but you'd need to have a hell of a strong case that the person was actually scum for the town to even consider it, and "dramonic has been semi-lurking, probably due to time constraints and the number of games he's in" isn't it.

k that sounds reasonable, Yos.

So who do you suggest we lynch? I'm not down for lynching furcolow.

Well, I'd also be happy with a gandalf lynch, possibly animorpherv1, and possibly you (although I doubt you'd be down for that one, heh). There's a few other people who I might be willing to lynch if it came to a deadline situation, mostly because I don't have any good read on them. (Note we have about 6 days left right now.) I no longer want to lynch friend, and I don't really want to wagon chrono to a claim right now, although I really hate the unnecessary and anti-town softclaim he did earlier.

[Yosarian2]

let's lynch andrius and actually lynch scum

Furcolow is himself.
Let's hang andrius and deal with it.

holster
aim andrius

You don't lynch a claimed cop day 1. Period. What's wrong with you guys?

Furcolow is probably just trying to take the cop down before he goes down, but I have no idea what Vez is doing here.

[Yosarian2]

Andrius, D0 investigation please .. I don't know why you didn't claim it so far ..

As I said before, I doubt my own results, and given the NAR situation, the N0 investigation could be near-worthless.

Not really. We need to be trying to lynch the recruiter. The guy you investigated might have been recruited, but it still helps us narrow down the recruiter, which is what matters at this point. You may not live until day 2 now that you've claimed, so you should probably just claim your result.

[Yosarian2]

We have been talking about two recruiters.
Not two factions. You said there are two factions. We don't know this. Therefore you must be scum.

...you think there's two recruiters and only one faction? How could that possibly be balanced?

[Yosarian2]

[bAim :]Zwet[/b]

do we've time to get this done or what? We should try.

Why?

Zwet's looked town to me. Why do you think he's scum?

[Yosarian2]

. i also do not understand why dramonic should bodyguard andrius.

1) andrius is a cop, dramonic is a bodyguard: mafia know not to hit him
...

3) andrius is a cop, dramonic is scum: scum can either kill a cop, and lose a scum (they wont) or just fake option 3

Note that in either of those options, which I think are the most likely, we get another cop investigation. That's huge; each cop investigation, even if it's an innocent, gives us as much or more info as an entire lynch, IMHO. 2-3 cop innocents is basically equal to a mason group. It's vital that the cop gets off as many investigations as possible; nothing else a bodyguard could do is anywhere near as important then that.

Frankly, if the game has two recruiters and a cop, it's probably balanced in such as was so that if the cop dies night 1 the town's in trouble.

We really need to hear from Dramonic a confirmation that he's going to protect Andrius tonight, something dramonic can't wiggle out of tomorrow, and we need to hear Andrius's result. We're running out of time.

[Yosarian2]

About some of the other suspects being talked about; I think Ooba is town, but I could see either Faraday or RC being possible scum. If it was necessary to secure a deadline lynch, I'd be willing to lynch either one of them.

[Yosarian2]

Fine. You got it.
I investigated ReaperCharlie N0, and if you want crumbs feel free to ISO me. Also, I've hinted to this in both Harry Potter Mafia and the signups for this game. He's on my vengeance list, so he's to be killed/roleblocked/investigated on sight. So yeah. I investigated a player who's pretty unreadable for me, and he's usually a dick when it comes to playing with me, so yeah.

Ok, good to know. We're not lynching RC today then.

Also, I'm now more confident about Andrius being town. If he was scum, I can't really see him confirming RC, considering the way RC's been attacking him.

Fact: My Role PM leads me to believe something bad would have happened had I investigated the Don's Sons.
Fact: He started the game as a town-aligned (or self-aligned?) character, or he is one of the Don's Sons.

Huh. I would have assumed that the Don's Sons were the recruiters. Although, remembering the cult roles in Lost Boys mafia, outguessing the mod here may be tricky.

Do you know what would happen if you investigated the don's sons? Would you die? Or are they investigative immune? Because if you would die if you investigated them, that's something we'd want to know now.

So I'll just have to randomly go back and check people I've already investigated every once in awhile. :/

That's a bad idea. At least for now, we're not worried about trying to find recruits, we want to find recruiters. After we think we've gotten all the recruiters and want to go back and hunt down the people they recruited, we might want to do that, but for now, you shouldn't do that at all.

[Yosarian2]

3rd party?

I'm up for a lynch.

aim: ReaperCharlie

You want to lynch him...in response to the cop claiming an innocent on him? Granted, it's a cop who has doubts about the viability of his investigation ect, but still, huh?

[Yosarian2]

Uh...I'm really confused now, Andrius. I thought earlier in the day you said you got an innocent. What was your result, exactly, and do you know what it means? If you're unclear, you should PM the mod for clarification.

[Yosarian2]

depends, am I getting lynched?

If you want to not get lynched, you need to make absolutely clear that you're protecting Andreius tonight, with the understanding that if he dies you'll get lynched tommorow. Yes or no?

[Yosarian2]

I will protect him. However keep in mind I'm an outed power roles, there's something called a roleblocker that could make Andrius die through me.

Eh. I have strong doubts that it's at all likely that there's two scum groups, both of which start with a recruiter and with another scum power role like roleblocker.

I mean, again, outguessing the mod is damn dangerous, but if I was trying to design a setup with two cult recruiters in it, my first, second, and third thought would be "how can I possibly balance this setup to give town a chance in hell of winning", and my answer would not be "hey, why don't we throw in some scum roleblockers as well".

We'll see. At the moment, it's not high on my list of concerns.

Honestly, since we do have multiple recruiters, I wouldn't trust either of their words after today. Probability is higher that they will get recruited ow that they are outted Power Roles. RC lynch is stil la go, though.
holster; Aim: ReaperCharlie

Um...I'm pretty sure he's still our cop-confirmed innocent here, ani. I hate all this "third party" speculitive stuff, but Andrius sounded pretty sure from his night result that RC is not the cult recruiter, and that means we don't want to lynch him today.

[Yosarian2]

RC should die now.
He can't be recruited scum for my role related reasons.
Therefore he must be the son of Don.

unvote
vote RC

what

Andries's claims seems to imply that RC was either town or third party before the recruitment, if Andries is reliable.

Your claim seems to imply that RC was not recruited.

Therefore, RC is almost certanly town. Or possibly third party, but I'm not worrying about long shots like that here.

People seem to keep jumping to bizzare and stupid conclusions based on anti-logic this game.

Anyway, looks like furcolow was hammered, which makes sense since his claim is completely absurd. The terrible counterclaim-ish-thing of andries,l the claim that he tried to investigate the same guy And did but then failed, and of course the fact this is the third time he's changed his claim today. I really don't see anyone doing stuff that dumb as a cop; a cop lying and claiming vanilla would be beyond belief, since he'd have to know that no one would ever believe him after that point, and a cop needs to be believed in order to be effective. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[Yosarian2]

ooba: Why would you kill Zwet? I know you said you suspected him yesterday, but could you explain again? Because I still don't get it; he seemed obvtown.

I'm not sure about ooba's claim; we assume there are at least 2 scum factions, so if the "scum can either recruit or kill" theory is right, then there's really no way to know if one or both of the kills last night was scum.

I'm a little confused about what happened with Dram and Andreus. If the scum can both kill and roleblock the same night, it would have made much more sense to roleblock Dramonic and kill Andreus, and then they'd probably be able to lynch dramonic today for "failing to protect Andreus" or whatever. My first though is to suspect Andreus a little more because of that, or else...perhaps one scum group killed Dramonic (or tried to kill Andreus and Dramonic stopped him, although the flavor dosn't really sound like that), and the other roleblocked Andreus? I still don't get why a cult group with a roleblocker would choose to do it that way, though.

So, possibilities I can think of:

1. Andreus is scum.
2. Scum group A roleblocekd Andreus, scum group B killed Dramonic.
3. Andreus didn't get roleblocked, which would probably make ooba untargatable. Considering ooba claimed, and isn't claming untargatable, this would probably make ooba scum.

Am I missing any other possibilities here? (Well, I guess other then "pro-town person roleblocked Andreus" or ""some kind of wacky redirection happened" or something, but those seem unlikely enough to not be worth considering.)

[Yosarian2]

One other relevent question I have.

He wasn't 100% explicit, but I had the very strong impression that yesterday TheLonging was claiming to be a one-shot vig and that he announced that he was going to kill Gandalf last night (who, obv, is still alive). I'm kind of doubting that there are 3 oro-town vigs in the game (Zwet, Ooba, and TheLonging), so this would be a good time for TheLonging to clarify his claim, and say who, if anyone, he shot last night; that would help us figure out what's going on here.

[Yosarian2]

I'm kind of doubting that there are 3 pro-town vigs in the game

On second thought...there theoretically could be, in a multi-cult-recruiter game. It would make the game much more swingy and random, and I still don't think it's likely, but it's not impossible. I guess getting a counterclaim might be pointless here.

Looking back at Andreus's posts day 1, he did say that "something bad" would happen if he targeted the brothers. Did you ever get clarification on that? Could "not getting a result" (and the whole "getting suckerpunched" thing or whatever) be what the mod meant?

[Yosarian2]

- Your cult can recruit or kill theory is wrong

Huh? That's interesting...how do you know that, ooba?

But lets assume your cult can kill or recruit theory is right, which is better - adding a person to my scum group hence increasing the clout of the group (or) kill someone ...
Recruiting is twice as useful as killing ..

Well, a lot of cult groups can't recruit either pro-town power roles, or members of the other cult group. If a cult group had the chance to kill a pro-town power role, or possibly to kill someone they thought was the other cult recruiter, then it might be worth losing a recruitment attempt in order to get rid of them, especially since that would also mean that cult recruit attempts on people with unknown roles would fail fairly often.

- Irrelevant - he was not on my town reads

That doesn't make it "irrelevent". If I think someone is clearly town, and you kill them and they flip town, I'm going to have a problem with your play.

I'm still unclear about why you were so sure he was scum as to use up what you're claiming is a one-shot vig kill on night 1 on someone who didn't have a chance to claim and who a lot of people thought was town, and you didn't really answer my question when I asked you this before. Why were you that confident he was scum, ooba?

RC is scum. I hope one of my loose cannon brothers kills you ..

What do you think about Andreus, ooba? Do you think he's lying, do you think he got roleblocked, or what?

[Yosarian2]

No - The lack of a counterclaim confirms my kill ...

When someone claims a kill, I generally assume that either they or one of their scumbuddies made the kill; almost no one ever claims a kill if they think that there might be a vig that knows their lying. That was not what I wanted the counterclaim for.

Only question you have to ask yourself is "Do you think I was recruited N0?" ..

You could have been, or you could be part of a cult group that has a kill, or there could be someone else in your scum group could have made the kill.

In other words, if you're the recruiter, and you recruit a vig, then if they made a kill that you know about you can claim the kill without worrying about being counterclaimed. Or, of course, if your scumgroup has a kill and you make it, you can also claim the kill and claim to be a vig without worrying about being counterclaimed.

You're stretching with the "something bad"="not getting a result" part ..

I'm trying to figure out a possible explanation for what happened last night. Day 1, he made vague comments that something bad might happen if he targets a brother; after that, he targets you, and claims that something vaguely bad happens, and he dosn't get an investigation. Why is me asking Andreus if the two could be connected be "stretching"?

[Yosarian2]

Wow, posts are coming fast here.

lol. Yeah, I was trying to figure out the context of his soft-claims, as they seemed fairly random...
So, he claimed one-shot vig, which I can verify is true. My understanding is that he did not use this ability last night, and I chose not to since I wouldn't have known who to target with the amount of time I had. However, this is making me concerned for Zwet and Ooba's claims. I'll have to look into what Zwet claimed, but Ooba's is exactly the same as mine, so...hmm...

Ok. Ooba's claim, the whole "one shot vig or one shot double voter" thing is exactly the same as your role? Interesting.

That makes it a little more belivable. If he knew it that exactly, I think that means that either Ooba has that role, or he is in a scum group with someone who has that role (or had it and then got recruited, or something like that).

[Yosarian2]

Zwet (or some other loose cannon) killed dram ..

This actually seems more possible, now that I think about it.

Looking at Zwet's posts, he ended the day voting for Dram. Also, I can't really imagining Zwet not vigging someone, given the chance.

PPE: Huh, interesting breadcrumb, ooba. I hadn't noticed that.

So; either ooba is a loose cannon (who might or might not have been recruited), or else he recruited a loose cannon night zero and then instantly started to breadcrumb for a loose cannon claim. That kind of strategy would be brilliant, but it's probably not that likely. (Also, if ooba was a loose cannon who got recruited, that wouldn't actually explain the failed cop investigation at all.)

Ok. I want to hear from Andreius, but I don't think we want to lynch ooba today; he's probably either town, or a recruited loose cannon who already used up his kill; either way, we've got bigger fish to fry. Especially after that disaster at the end of day 1, our goal needs to be to lynch a recruiter today.

[Yosarian2]

Apparently there are more of the same role.
Are there any rolebockers here?
If we get at least one roleblocker claim then Andrius is cleared. If we don;t he dies.

...what?

The scum could have started out with a roleblocker. Or the town could have started out with exactally one roleblocker, and that person got recruited. No one claiming roleblocker dosn't prove anything about Andrius; for that matter, if someone does claim roleblocker, that dosn't tell us anything about andrius either.

The claims you're trying to get tell us nothing, vezo, and you're fishing for even more town roles to claim for no good reason.

[Yosarian2]

Hey dumbass, dramonic died protecting me.

Do you actually know if that's true?

Also, the so-called "softclaims" are getting so incredibly obvious by this point that I might as well just say it; I'm pretty sure vezokpiraka is claiming to be a watcher who targeted you last night; if so he might actually know if someone tried to kill you.

I suckerpunched ooba, not the other way around.

Ok.

I get the feeling I'd be killed/ maimed if I target a Son.

Interesting.

predit2: Hi Yos. You ninja'd me. And there's no 'e' in my name, so you can call me 'Andy' if its easier for you. XD

TO be fair, I never spell anyone's name right, heh.

[Yosarian2]

- That's what I think the setup is - A cult which can just recruit

The biggest reason I think that's unlikely is that I have trouble seeing a pro-town bodyguard in a game where the scum don't have a kill.

[Yosarian2]

Also Yos Scumgroup A tried to kill andy and scumgroup B roleblocked him is another posibillity isn't it?

Sure. I think I mentioned that in my paragraph, but yeah, that's certainly possible.

I am not a watcher.

Ah, interesting. Well, you don't have to tell us what your role is. In fact, if you could go back in time and give us much less information on day 1 then you did, that would be awesome.

[Yosarian2]

And on a different subject:
How many people believe that by Night 1, when there have been 4 chances to recruit Yos2, that he hasn't been recruited by now? Anyone?

I understand where you're coming with this. I can only speculate about why they haven't recruited me, of course, but I will say that if scum can recruit power roles, when we had 4 people claim (or mega-uber-softclaim) major power roles yesterday (Andrius, Dramonic, TheLonging, Vez), I would expect them to have been a much higher priority last night. And, of course, there's always the WIFOM factor (do you recruit the obvious choice, knowing that he's the obvious choice and will therefore draw more investigations/vigs/watchers/attention/ect, or do you not recruit him and hope he gets mislynched for being the obvious recruit choice,ect).

It's basically the same as in a normal game; if you're scum, do you shoot the most experienced player night 1, and risk him being doc protected, or do you let him live and then try to bring up the fact that he's still alive as an argument against him later? Which way they go depends on the scum group. For example, I never got recruited in the last cult game I played (Lost Boys, also a Mr. Flay game) even though I survived for several days (and eventually got mislynched).

But, yeah. Logically, if scum can recruit power roles and keep the powers, the most obvious choices for scum recruitment last night would have been Andy or Vez (Turn the claimed information roles, remove threats and manipulate the town with them later) or TheLonging (turn the claimed one shot vig, save the shot for endgame). I don't think we should really be looking for recruits until after we get the recruiters, but we are going to have to hunt down all the cult members eventually, so it's worth keeping in mind.

[Yosarian2]

Haha. That's hilarious, RC. You made that wiki page?

Anyway, yeah, the argument you raise, the question of "would scum target the most experienced player, would town protective roles protect the most experienced player, would townies expect the scum to target the most experienced player, would scum intentionally plant the idea that they would target the experienced player", ect, is a very old one, and inherently very WIFOMish.

[Yosarian2]

aim ooba

Let's see what other stuff happens.

I'm pretty confused by you at this point, Vezo. Can you explain what thought process led you to this vote?

[Yosarian2]

Look, the Furcolow wagon was obviously (to me, at least) scum-driven. He was a VI, an easy target, and for people that don't have experience with him, always scummy.

That's horrible logic.

If he's "always scummy" for "people who don't have experence with him" or whatever, then wouldn't pro-town people "who don't have experence with him" think he's scum? How does that make the wagon "scum driven"?

Besides which, he lied about his role, and then changed his lie, multiple times. There's no way anyone does that day 1 and doesn't hang, in any sane town, ever.

What makes you think the wagon is "scum driven"? Why would any townie not want to lynch him?

I drove his wagon, and I don't apologize for it at all. He got himself lynched with incredibly anti-town play. I didn't see the thread after his final cop claim and before his hammer, but I don't think I would have unvoted even then.

[Yosarian2]

Because he was obviously VItown. Like beyond any shadow of doubt.

Being a VI doesn't make one necessarily town, at all.

The reasons that almost everyone in the game suspected him have very little to do with his playstyle, and everything to do with him acting in an inherently scummy way.

Maybe you don't have experience with them, Yos, but the site has changed. VIs exist, and you have to know how to read them.

I've been playing with VI's for years, Friend. They've always existed.

Policies like "lynch all liars" exist specifically because there have always been some people making bad play decisions, and there have always been scum trying to look like people making bad play decisions. If you start letting people get away with crap like openly lying about their role and changing it multiple times, then the town's ability to get any solid information collapses, the town's ability to read anyone falls apart, and scum get away with all kinds of gambits and fakeclaims without getting called on them.

The downside is, occasionally some townie makes some really terrible lies, gets caught, and falls apart, and gets lynched. Doesn't happen that often, but it does happen, and it's frustrating. Still, scum get themselves into those kinds of "trying to lie your way out of trouble and getting caught" situations far more often then town ever do. I wouldn't say I will always lynch a liar, because I won't, but 95% of the time it's the right choice.

[Yosarian2]

Yes. It has. But the point is that anti-town play =/= scummy play.

100% wrong. Assuming that people are playing to their win condition, which everyone should be, pro-town play (play that brings the town closer to victory) is always going to come more often from town, and anti-town play (play that brings the scum closer to victory) is always going to come more often then scum. Anti-town is a type of scummy behavior; I don't know where people came up with the idea that it's not.

Now, is it 100% reliable? Of course not. No scumtell is. But if you want to know someone's alignment, one of the best ways is to look at their actions, and see which faction their actions seem to be helping.

People like Furc are the EASIEST for scum to pick on

That's silly, and circuluar.

Why are people who act in a scummy way "easiest for scum to pick on?" Because town also vote for people who act in a scummy way. If someone acts in a scummy way, then yes, a scum can easily start a wagon on them, but just as often, a town will start a wagon on them, because that's what you do when someone is scummy.

The whole concept that some people are "easy lynches" is backwards. If someone's an "easy lynch", if they look scummy, that makes it MORE likely that more townies will vote for them, not less.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you're missing a key difference. Motivation.

You have to tell if the person committing said scummy actions is committing them because they are indeed scum, or because they're a VI and despite their efforts to contribute to the town, they end up acting scummily. In Furc's case, it was clear (to me) that he was doing the latter.

His motivation was quite clear. He was lying about his role to get pressure off of him. He even admitted that that's what he was doing.

You can call him a "VI" as much as you want, but at the time it looked like he knew exactly what he was doing; he semi-claimed a lie to get the pressure off of him, and then recanted once the pressure went away so he didn't have to prove the claim. That doesn't make him dumb, that makes him reasonably clever scum.

Now, apparently what actually happened was the original claim was true and then the recanting was a lie to try to avoid being nightkilled, but that didn't even occur to me at the time, because that's a completely illogical play.

I'm not saying that VIs are always town, but they can be read and it's a knock on you that you couldn't - either you're scum or you're not the great player that everyone thinks you are.
My vote goes for "Yos is scum," because I don't think you've built up your reputation as one of the best players on the site with VI mislynches.

Oh, please. I never claimed to be perfect. A great player is one who's right perhaps 50% of the time on day 1. A decent town player is right perhaps a third of the time on day 1, and the town as a whole actually tends to lynch worse then random on day 1. I clearly had a good read on several players alignment; I was right that Zwet was town, I was right that Dramonic was town (and I managed to prevent him from being lynched, which took a great deal of effort even after he claimed a power role). But "Yos was wrong on day 1, so he must be scum" is one of the worst arguments I've heard.

This is the situation, friend. You apparently had a pro-town read on Furc, based on gut or meta or something. That's fine, in fact, that's a good thing when you can get a read on someone like that. But you could never explain why you had that read (other then vague comments like "He always acts like this"). When you make comments like that and can't back them up, and no one else agrees with you, you can't expect your unsubstantiated opinion of someone to convince anyone else; we don't know your alignment, and we don't know if you're right, so we're not all going to just drop a wagon just because you say so.

if you're so keen on meta, then feel free to look at mine. I will nearly always lynch someone caught in a lie about their role, because it's nearly always the right thing to do, and I will generally lynch people who are acting in an anti-town way. Especially on day 1, when you don't have any bandwagon analysis to go on. The mistake a lot of people make is to assume that people don't know what they're doing; I always at least consider the possibility that people actually do know what they're doing, and try to figure out what their motives are for it, and it works quite often.

[Yosarian2]

In this argument between Friend and Yos, I'd be more willing to lynch Yos.

Ugh.

Just when I was starting to think you might be town after all, you make a comment like this.

Why does "Yos and Friend are arguing" imply that the town would want to lynch one or the other of us? Neither of us are even voting for each other at this point.

[Yosarian2]

This is why bringing Mafia Discussion into games doesn't work. Leave the theorycrafting outside the game, and we don't have clutter.

You make it sound like I'm talking about some random theory unrelated to the game. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

If I'm attacked for something that I did, I'm going to explain what it was that I did and why I did it. Everything I do as town, I do in order to help the town, and if questioned or attacked I'll explain why what I did is a logical pro-town action, in as much detail as necessary.

The idea that there's something wrong with talking about theory in games is wrong. If you're doing something and you don't know why, then you're doing something wrong. Otherwise, you should be able to explain all of your actions, and that's what I was doing. If that means I have to explain in mafia theory terms why voting for someone who acts in an extremely anti-town way is usually the right move for town, then I'll do that.

Normally, this would lead to a Yosarian2 vote, as he was the first to rev up this discussion. However, Yos2 as a player would bring in discussion in both cases of his alignment, and thus it's an unsatisfying nulltell.

Heh. Fair enough, I can't argue with that being my meta, I do. Because it's the right thing to do in this situation.

[Yosarian2]

Xvart, there were no NKs that couldn't be accounted for by the loose cannons. I said zwet and ooba because they were the only claimed ones and I didn't know they were oneshot. Now I think there are probably a few of them, but I still don't think scum has a NK.

As I said earlier, I still don't think town would have a bodyguard if scum don't have any kills. Especally since Dram said that he could block kills but not recruitments.

[Yosarian2]

I donno. I still think Ooba's claim and breadcrumb is strong evidence he's telling the truth about his role. (Not necessarily about his alignment, of course, but even if he was recruited last night after the kill I think we still don't want to lynch him.) RC's theory that it was a safeclaim doesn't seem that likely to me, and Vez's play today (both his Ooba vote and his Andy vote before that) looks opportunistic to me; I am really wondering if Vez was recruited last night.

[Yosarian2]

But why the hell would anyone recruit vezok?

Because he all-but-claimed to have an info role on day 1. No scum is going to want to go into endgame facing a claimed town info role, so they have to either recruit him or kill him before that point. Yes, his play day 1 was kind of iffy, but even a VI cop can win the game for the town singlehandedly if the scum just sit back and let him keep investigating.

(And, yes, i realize that logic also applies to you. You were also a logical recruitment taret. But you're the more obvious choice, and there are good reasons for the cult to avoid the obvious choice; for example, I don't know what would happen if both cults tried to recruit the same person the same night, but obviously at least one of them would fail).

[Yosarian2]

If oyu care to look I crumbed a PR that DOESN'T help scum at all.
I don't even think I can be cultized.

If you can't be culted, then WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT? Why not let the cult(s) try and target you and fail? Gah.

[Yosarian2]

If by "I have my reasons" you mean "derp, I didn't think of that", then sure.

If by "derp, I didn't think of that" you mean "he wasn't thinking in terms of how to help the town because he's already been recruited and his "probably unrecruitable" claim is a lie", then sure.

Personally, I am having a lot of trouble believing this claim. If he was an unrecruitable info role, then why has he been arguing all day that the scum don't have a kill? There's no way the mod would put an unrecruitable cop role into the game unless the scum had some way of dealing with it; if there was an unrecruitable cop in the game, then the scum would have to have a kill, and he would have already known that.

[Yosarian2]

Well I am not unrecruitable of course.
I won't claim something like that. I claimed just for WIFOM. But you had to go and check all the reasons.

(sigh) And if you're town, this would also be a bad thing to say.

Look, take my advice; if you are town, then next time you want to share something about your role, don't. Pretty much as a universal rule.

[Yosarian2]

WTF is wrong with people that can't enjoy to fucking play a game???????
It's not like you have to analise me.

Um...we kind of do. That's, like, the whole point of mafia.

[Yosarian2]

Problem: 1) Vezo is a srsly bad player. Thus a detriment to the town.
2) Due to the VI-ness, unlikely to be recruited OR killed, as neither scum team wants the VI-ness, leaving it to piss off the town instead.

(shrug) If scum only can recruit and not kill, then they pretty much have to recruit information roles, or the cop's likely to nail the cult recruiter and that's that. It's especially likely since Vezo looked like he was crumbing watcher yesterday (although he denied it today); a watcher role has very high chance of nailing a cult recruiter, since all he has to do is figure out who the cult is likely to recruit, and watch that guy.

[Yosarian2]

It seems clear that I shouldn't comment on chronopie's soft claim here.

[Yosarian2]

Out of the top 3 wagons, I think faraday is the most likely to be scum, especally cult recruiter-type-scum. I get the feeling he's kind of been sitting back all game, and I wasn't really a fan of his day 1 play at all.

Vote:faraday

[Yosarian2]

Out of the top 3 wagons, I think faraday is the most likely to be scum, especally cult recruiter-type-scum. I get the feeling he's kind of been sitting back all game, and I wasn't really a fan of his day 1 play at all.

Vote:faraday

What specifically weren't you a fan of?

Basically, looking at your day 1 posting, I just don't see much real scumhunting going on. The closest you came to scumhunting were a couple of weak attacks against Andreus, which you never really followed up on, and a Zwet vote, that dosn't really seem to be based on anything; other then those two things, you didn't really do any other scumhunting at all. I just don't get the vibe that you were really trying to find scum on day 1, it more feels like you kind of stayed out of the way and occasionally made a side comment just to prevent yourself from looking like a complete lurker. I realize you were on V/LA for part of the day, which can explain part of it, but still, your play doesn't seem town to me.

[Yosarian2]

I think Yos may know what my role is now. If so, If you're town, sorry about N0 Yos.

What you are claiming your role was was obvious from your posts, chronopie. I'm not going to comment on it, because I'm not going to do anything that might even hint if I have a role that has a night action or not. Way too many people have already claimed, I'm not going to.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: W/o giving away any more info and judging from your responses can I gather chrono's a bad wagon?

I wouldn't make any assumptions on chrono's role from anything I've said.

Eh, you know, let's stop beating around the bush. There's so many people this game who have made their role incredibly obvious but then refused to actually claim it, which seems really unhelpful to me, so I'll just say this. Chrono appears to be making either a roleblocker claim or something similar (re-director, jailkeeper, ect). He appears to be claiming that he targeted me and xvert. I am not going to comment on the accuracy of this at all, since any comment I make could either confirm or deny that I have a night action. Basically, assume that everything I've said in response to chrono is exactly what I would have said completely irrespective of what my role is or is not, because, to the best of my ability, it is.

That being said, it's unlikely that someone would claim roleblocker and then claim an unclaimed people as a target if they didn't know those people had been roleblocked, so he may well be a roleblocker or else be in a cult group with a roleblocker. On the other hand, it's likely that the scum do have a roleblocker (either born scum or recruited), since I don't see a town roleblocker targeting andreus. On the OTHER other hand, there seem to be a lot of duplicate roles in this game. So...I don't think chrono's claim really tells us that much at this point, sadly.

[Yosarian2]

I can't believe the Faraday wagon, built on nothing but hopes and dreams, is winning compared to the guy whose defense is basically a logical argument that suggests he is not the recruiter but says nothing of him being recruited and how we should not consider him because he isn't the recruiter.

xvart.

Question: how many days do you think the town can allow 2 cult recruiters to both survive and still have a reasonable chance of winning?

IMHO, The realistic answer is probably somewhere between 3 or 4. If both cult recruiters are still alive on day 5, we're talking up to 10 potential recruits; that's a worst case scenerio, but I don't really see town winning if both cult recruiters are still alive on day 5, even if we manage to lynch or vig a recruit or two before then.

So, in a 17 person game, we've got perhaps 3 chances to lynch a cult recruiter (today, tommorow, day 4) , or else town probably loses. Considering that we're talking about only 2/17 odds of hitting one if we lynch randomly today, the odds are not in our favor here, unless we get smart and put "lynching at least one cult recruiter" as our absolutely #1 priority.

Basically, looking at the numbers, I consider any argument in the form of "we shouldn't lynch X because he's probably not the recruiter" to be incredibly strong, because we don't have many chances left to lynch a cult recruiter and win. And I still don't see any likely scenerio here where ooba is a cult recruiter; the most likely scenerio here are that he's telling the truth about being a loose cannon, that he used his kill last night, and that he may or may not have been recruited at some point. If so, then we don't want to lynch him.

[Yosarian2]

So Yos, I guess you were under the VERY STRONG impression that Furcolow was a cult recruiter yesterday?

Absolutely. I thought he was more likely scum then town based on his behavior, and I didn't think he'd likely be someone a cult would recruit night zero cult recruit, so yes, I thought there was a good chance that he was a cult recruiter. Otherwise, I wouldn't have voted him.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, this is how I see it here:

What we know about Ooba's role:

A. He claimed the Zwet kill, and wasn't counterclaimed. This was right after something like 4 people claimed significant pro-town roles, so awesome as Zwet is, if a cult had a klll for whatever reason I'd expect them to kill one of the town power roles. This was also consistant with Ooba's stated day 1 suspicions.

B. He had a lot of obscure details about his role confirmed by singersigner; there's no way he could have just guessed all of that.

C. He crumbed on day 1, with a crumb that proves that he already knew that the role name of the one shot vig was "loose cannon". This was confirmed by Zwet's death.

Most likely explination here is that he's telling the truth. The only other possibility I can think of that's at all likely is the one RC was pushing, that the cult recruiter got "loose cannon" as a safe claim. That dosn't explain the Zwet kill, though; if Ooba didn't kill Zwet, then who did? And why? Also, "one shot vig" would be a pretty crappy safe claim to give a cult recruiter without a kill; and I can't really see why any possible type of cult recruiter with a kill would not kill night 0 and then kill Zwet on night 1. Frankly, nothing other then "Ooba is a loose cannon" really makes sense here. (The third possibility, the one I came up with earlier today, that Ooba is a recruiter who knows about loose cannons because he recruited one, kind of fell apart once Ooba proved his day 1 breadcrumb; he would have had to recruit the loose cannon night zero and then set up an elaborate fakeclaim starting on day 1, which dosn't really make sense, and then direct his recruited loose cannon to kill Zwet rather then one of the claimed power roles or save the one-shot kill for endgame, which also doesn't make sense.)

At this point, I'm almost positive Ooba is not a cult recruiter. In fact, if I had to guess, I'd guess that he's probably still town; it's possible he could have been recruited after he made the kill last night, but it's really not all that likely.

[Yosarian2]

Andreus: This was the day 1 breadcrumb. I didn't notice it myself until ooba pointed it out.

After TheLonging had softclaimed one-shot vig in a really obvious way, ooba said this

Furcolow, Town reads based on
...
TheLonging - Secret reasons. He looks like a loose cannon.

So he clearly knew that the one-shot vig role was named "loose cannon", even though no one else had used that phrase. We know for a fact now that this is true, since Zwet flipped "loose cannon", and singersinger (TheLonging's replacement) also confirmed it.

[Yosarian2]

Buuut you were still dead wrong, and I was right in refusing to vote for him.

Sure. Of course, the opposite is also true; you were dead wrong about your instance that dramonic was scum, and I was right in defending dramonic and refusing to vote for him.

[Yosarian2]

Um...I still don't get your actions, singer; YOU were the one who confirmed his role. Why were you voting him, again?

[Yosarian2]

Bah. Fail, wrong account.

Mod, please deleate the above post, I'll repost it here.
Done. -Flay

Someone tell me why we are lynching Faraday.

Well, this is why I am suspicious of him.

Out of the top 3 wagons, I think faraday is the most likely to be scum, especally cult recruiter-type-scum. I get the feeling he's kind of been sitting back all game, and I wasn't really a fan of his day 1 play at all.

Vote:faraday

What specifically weren't you a fan of?

Basically, looking at your day 1 posting, I just don't see much real scumhunting going on. The closest you came to scumhunting were a couple of weak attacks against Andreus, which you never really followed up on, and a Zwet vote, that dosn't really seem to be based on anything; other then those two things, you didn't really do any other scumhunting at all. I just don't get the vibe that you were really trying to find scum on day 1, it more feels like you kind of stayed out of the way and occasionally made a side comment just to prevent yourself from looking like a complete lurker. I realize you were on V/LA for part of the day, which can explain part of it, but still, your play doesn't seem town to me.

Faraday's day 1 play was not pro-town at all. He never really looked for scum, his only votes weren't backed up, I hate his zwet vote, and it feels to me like Faraday's main concern day 1 was that he not get noticed by anyone and fly under the radar.

That makes him likely scum, in my book. Better yet, that makes him likely scum already on day 1, and for obvious reasons I'd rather lynch someone who looks like scum on day 1 then someone who looks like scum on day 2. It especally makes him look like cult recruiter scum; a cult recruit scum'd be more likely to get into the fray and try to cause some damage or muddy the waters or something, cult recruits are expendable, while for a cult recruiter scum, standard operation procedure would be more likely to sit back and try to not be noticed by anyone for as many days as possible.

If you've got a better case against someone else, I'd certainly be interested to hear it.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2 - since you basically outlined the case on Faraday; can you take a couple of minutes to read M=W's ISO (hint: it won't take long) and do a simple comparison to Faraday? Outside of M=W's case on Friend out of the gate and his "case" on Faraday there is nothing. I would almost say there is less "ruffling of feathers" and more trying to go unnoticed, especially with lack of posting frequency and general content.

So if we are going the route of people trying not to get noticed I think Me=Weird should be considered; coupled with his recent scummy behavior he is today's lynch.

Vote: Me=Weird

xvart.

(nods) Me=Weird is defiantly someone we need to see more good scumhunting from. He really didn't do much, especally on day 1.

The main reason he hasn't gotten much pressure was the conditions in which Seraphim, the guy before him, replaced out on during day 1. The way that he replaced out so his personal dislike of Vez didn't effect the game was pretty odd, and several people said they couldn't see a scum doing it. I'm not completely convinced by that argument, but was defiantly a weird move (no pun intended).

I'd definatly like to hear some more posting from him, in any case. Other then his vote for faraday, I don't really know where me=weird stands on anything. And also, his last two posts bug me, where he says:

This game has succeeded in confusing me. I'm going to get some ISO's done tomorrow or so.

You should hammer. Hopefully D3 will be better. Anyway, not liking chrono to much after skimming his ISO, but there are bigger fish to fry.

No "waiting until tommorow" for iso's, me. We need to hear what you have to say about people now. If you have a case against chrono, or against anyone, say it. "Waiting until tomorrow" to make a case is just absurd in a cult game.

[Yosarian2]

So...I like how I've asked TWICE now for someone to explain the case on Faraday. Someone else asked somewhere along in there, but I can't remember who. And just NOW it's finally explained. I forgive you.

Sorry I didn't respond the first time; I had already made that case, and I figured that I didn't need to repeat myself.

I must say I can be recruited. I think he just wanted to stay alive.

for the record, he did later un-claim his "unrecruitable" claim, after I pointed out how hard it was to believe.

[Yosarian2]

The logic behind Friend's vote is pretty horrible.

That being said, I'm still waiting to hear some actual analysis from me=weird here. Do you have any opinions about anyone in the game here?

[Yosarian2]

Why is my logic "horrible," Yos?

Well, because obviously, if someone actually has evidence that they're not a recruiter, then we're not going to lynch them today; so, basically, he made a defense that makes perfect sense, and you voted him for it. This:

Because you're not defending against the accusation of scumminess, just the accusation of being a recruiter.

Makes no sense at all to me at all; if someone does make a defense against "the accusation of being a recruiter", and it's a good one, then that would be a great reason to not vote them. I also don't like it in combination with the way you've recently gone quiet (all your posts for the past few weeks have been short one or two liners with very little in the way of real content.) Just not getting a good vibe from you at the moment.

All that being said, I don't want us to let me=weird off the hook here. We really need to hear something useful from him, ideally before the end of the day. A list of who he thinks is town and scum from him, some reasons for his vote, something.

[Yosarian2]

I don't like how everyone assumes Yos is town.

^^^ Agree

I don't like how both of you are making this comment and voting alongside Yos2, unless this is a passive aggressive way of preempting suspicion of Yos2 if the Faraday wagon flips town. I find it especially intriguing that Yos2 convinced RC to get on the wagon and now he doesn't like how people assume he is town? And Friend is even more passive aggressive since he has made no comments about the Faraday wagon at all, but is still voting.

To be fair; RC has been paranoid about me for most of the day, and I don't think he's been irrational about it. Honestly, I don't think this post was unreasonable (although I don't really know why he thinks everyone's assuming I am town).

Friend's "me, too" post kind of rubs me the wrong way, though.

[Yosarian2]

You really think I'm going to defend Vezok?

Now Yos2,
Lets try something here.

Pretend you are Vezok replacement. Whether town or scum. Do you think that you could actually make a legit defense for them?
My thoughts on Vezok's play this game? SUCKS.

(shrug) Well, yeah, you do kind of have to defend him, although of course it's not easy and it's a bad position to be in. When you replace a VI, your best bet is to explain how you think his actions make more sense as dumb town then as scum.

In this case, I don't really think Vez is a recruiter, so I don't want to lynch him now, but I think there is a good chance he was recruited last night, based on his play today. If you can defend against that, be my guest. Or you could just convince us that you're more likely pro-town based on your own play. You'll likely have a few days to do so; we can't start hunting for recruits until we get both recruiters.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2

- Nothing I can really pin on him again, he's very capable of being logical and posting cases as scum, I don't really like that he never commented on my supposed scumminess day 1, it just seems odd that he never so much as mentioned me untill a wagon started on me (that may not be actually 100% true, but you get the idea.

Well, as soon as you made the scummy looking Zwet vote on day 1, I questioned you about it, if you remember. The day ended not long after that, and I never got a response, but as soon as you made that vote I did have a problem with it.

You're right that I didn't really notice you at the start of day 1, but that's because you didn't really DO anything. Which is part of the reason I suspect you now. Basically, I think you were deliberately flying under the radar for most of day 1. And quite successfully, at that. I didn't notice you until the Zwet vote looked really scummy; when I went back and re-read you later, that was when I noticed that your play in general seemed anti-town.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and btw, remember that if we get to deadline (midnight tonight, I believe) without a hammer, it's a no-lynch, and a no-lynch in a cult game would be INCREDIBLY stupid for the town. So, unless you REALLY think you can get someone else lynched in the next 6 hours or so, or unless you REALLY have something else you need to say, if you're not on the faraday wagon, you should be hammering, pretty much right now. Let's not screw this up.

(And with the deadline set to "midnight tonight", I'm really doubting Gandalf's sincerity with his "I'll hammer tomorrow, oh by the way I didn't check to see when the deadline is" post; it would have taken him less time to check the first mod post and see when the deadline is then it did to type out that he didn't know when the deadline is. If faraday's scum, Galdalf's his buddy.)

[Yosarian2]

Target please .

Why would you ask for this?

This is getting ridiculous now.

vote ooba

I really don't get this, at all. Asking the claimed cop for his result is reasonable, and we still haven't actually gotten a response to the reasons we don't want to lynch ooba.

The night result is interesting. I'm not really sure if it implies one cult or two; Flay can be really trisky. If we are dealing with a case where both brothers started out on the same scum team, then I think it's possible Friend was a buddy of Me=Weird; he voted Serephem briefly, but then after the replacement request, declared him town:

holster

Seraphim (or Seraphim's slot I suppose) is town.

That being said, me=weird did vote for Friend for a while, so Friend probably isn't a lone recruiter or whatever; voting for your recruiter on day 1 seems unlikely.

Also, yeah; does anyone want to claim responsibility for the night kill?

[Yosarian2]

But why roleblock a roleblocker (i.e me) that had declared that they were going to RB either M=W or xvart?

Possible to allow a kill through from declared target?

So we can probably assume that the scum have successfully recruited one or more roleblockers already.

Unless they recruited YOU.

This post rubs me the wrong way. TOTALLY rubs me the wrong way.

It would totally make sense to recruit Andrius, and with 2 cults x 2 nights since his claim so far, that's 4 chances to recruit him.

I'm pretty dang sure he'd have been (and

has

been) recruited by now. Same with Yos2.

And the fact that Andrius hasn't revealed his results yet is shifty too.

Well, if we're assuming cult can recruit power roles, then the two claimed power roles that would have been the most desirable recruitment targets have been chrono (roleblocker) or singsinger (one shot vig). Any cult group would love to get it's hands on either one of those roles. The next two likely targets are the two claimed investigative roles, Andrius and Robo, to get the cops out of play. (Of course, that's assuming Robo wasn't cult to begin with).

As a side note, Robo, you probably should claim the rest the details of your role now. Frankly, if you started out town and you haven't been recruited yet, you probably will be recruited or killed soon, and the town needs whatever information you have. Especally since you've already claimed info role, I don't see that harm in a full claim at this point.

[Yosarian2]

I will claim if everybody wishes.

(shrug) I mean, if you actually have some really good reason to not want to claim, if there's some part of your role haven't claimed yet that's going to give the town a significant advantage if you keep it secret, then say so.

At this point, as you've already claimed info role, I tend to doubt that a full claim would do more harm then Vez's premature semi-claim already did, and a full claim from you is going to give to the town information we might not be able to get later, but if you know something I don't, say so.

[Yosarian2]

Hey guys, it's another home game, which means I'm pretty

V/LA though Sunday night

. My first instinct is to say that Ooba was probably recruited last night, but it makes sense that Andrius would've been by now, too.

Dang girl, this is scummy.

aim: singersigner

It's definite fence-sitting, doesn't take a stance, just keeps herself smack dab in the middle. With a convenient VLA to go along with it.

I think there's a very high chance that singer has been recruited; she's been a claimed vig since day 1, she'd be a logical target. However, I doubt she's a recruiter.

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm. Well, if both Andreus and Robo are telling the truth, then Reaper is almost certanly town; he was invetsigated town night zero, and he was protected from being recruited that night as well; the only time he could have been recruited is if scum recruited him later, which I doubt, because scum would probably be recruiting power roles later.

That being said, Gurgi raises a good point. There's some weird stuff going on here with the claimed power roles. Chronos's claim that he was roleblocked is weird; it dosn't really make sense that scum would block the cop one night and then block the roleblocker the next night. And if Robo is telling the truth, Andreus couldn't have been recruited since then, so that dosn't explain it. Also, the whole "cop + cult doctor" thing is fishy.

[Yosarian2]

All I hear is: (whispered) "

buddy buddy buddy buddy buddy

".

Once we find the recruiterS, I swear Yos, you're going down so hard you'll think it's Christmas for skydivers.

Your whole "The cult is obviously going to recruit Yos eventually" theory is just badly flawed WIFOM from the start. I mean, for one thing, once you say that, then the cult suddenly has a reason to not try to recruit me. This goes double if we're in a game with cult doctors protecting the obvious recruit targets from being recruited.

[Yosarian2]

I club Gurgi with a blackjack. Ransack the room, see that he's still fending for himself

(like RC and me, aka town)

.

I feel like RC is trying to get me to investigate Yos. Hrm... I think

if RC is scum

, Yos is town. Or that's epic bussing.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

FATAL SYSTEM ERROR

Hello, Yos2's scumbuddy.

...

You do realize that, if Robo's telling the truth, Andrius has been protected from recruitment every night since he claimed, right?

I don't think there's any way Andrius is scum, unless Robo is lying.

[Yosarian2]

In other news, I am baffled why Andrius hasn't at least attempted to investigate Yos2 since the start of the game, even with the near 100% probability that he's been recruited by now.

Oh, bull. I'm significantly less likely to a recruitment target then any of the people who have claimed power roles, and we've had major claimed power roles in the open since day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Well he could be if he was recruited Night Zero.

Yeah, but that's much less likely. He was much more likely to be a recruitment target after he claimed on day 1. Plus, his play on day 1 seemed really town-ish to me, personally.

And, hey, best case scenerio here is that one or more cults tried and failed to recruit him on night 1 or night 2. In that case, we may be dealing with less current cult members then I'd been assuming.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think Andrius is lying about what he says he is, and if Robo is telling the truth he's town.

Yos2, on the other hand, is a lynch I could really go for - his style of play seems very "experienced scum" to me on a gut level and I just KNOW he's gonna tear this post apart because I'm just relying on gut.

"Relying on gut" isn't, itself, scummy. What is a problem is that I tend to think you want to lynch me mostly because I have (on and off again) suspected you for most of the game and so long as I'm alive I'm a threat to you.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, that's not true. The person I'm voting for has not been suspicious of me - my suspects have not been OMGUS-based in the slightest. You don't threaten me, you're not voting for me.

Well, it just seems that you've had a "gut based" suspicion of me "that you can't explain" ever since I first started attacking you on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Bah. Wrong account again.

This is me:

Singersinger: Did you make the kill last night, or not? I've been assuming you did, but I've been becoming increasingly suspicious about you that you haven't either claimed the kill yet, or denied making it.

[Yosarian2]

But your only saying that now.

lrn2read?

Why's LG scummy? You haven't said why. Usually you vote without reasoning, then state it later. Not at all this time though.

I say you're scum. Don't try to deny it, scumbag.

Aim: Friend

REASONS FOR SCUMMINESS = WHAT SOMEONE SAID ABOUT AVOIDING CONFLICT, NOT WANTING TO STEP ON TOES, ETC. HAPPY NOW?

Starting to seriously think that Yos2 got recruited. That catchup post was full of fluffy accusations on easy targets.

Yos. This post was made after your SECOND AND THIRD POSTS, and my suspicions of you at this point had nothing to do with your suspicions of me. It was more based on you going after Furc/Gandalf, both of whom are easy targets for scum to pick off (as they did with Furc).

Now, you say my suspicions of you only come after you suspected me, but that's a bullshit accusation because you hadn't made any posts for me to be suspicious of.

The only reason I'm not voting you right now is because I don't think you're a recruiter - I think you most likely got recruited N0 but that's whatever.

Yeah, that whole thing where you accused me of "fluffy accusations on easy targets" was a scummy as hell post on your part. And, yes, it was after "my second and third posts", you are correct. Notice that my third post was the one where I attacked and FOS'd you. This was in my third post:

...what? Prozac just spent several posts arguing why he thought it was a scum tell, and he made sense to me. You could disagree with those if you want, I don't really think it's a strong scumtell myself, but why would you claim he "has no response"? Fos:friend

So, directly in response to the post where I first attacked you, you attacked me with a bullshit post about "fluffy accusations against easy targets". Do you really not understand why that looks like an OMGUS move on your part?

[Yosarian2]

I'm willing to go onto the ooba wagon at the moment, as every other candidate right now is getting us nowhere. :/
I was going to suggest lynching Friend just because, but Yos made a good case on ooba.

For now:

Aim: ooba

Huh? I made a good case on ooba? I think ooba's nearly confirmed to not be a recruiter at this point, and I explained why in great detail yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, why was my post accusing you of taking advantage of Furc being Furc, Gandalf being Gandalf, and me being generally blunt and unhelpful "bullshit"?

I carefully analyzed everything that had happened in the game, spent a huge amount of time trying to figure out who was town and who was scum based on their actions, and did everything I could to figure out who the scum was. Meta is fine, but I hate it when people act like you can't dare attack people because "they always play like that"; it dosn't matter how people "normally" play, you still have to do your best to get a read on them based on their play this game.

You dismissed all the analysis I did with a brush off by calling it "fluffy", which really couldn't be farther from the truth. That is complete bullshit, and it's highly convient bullshit for you, since one of the people who looked like scum in my initial analysis was you.

Also, I didn't attack you for being "blunt", and if you were "unhelpful" and knew you were being unhelpful, then that is inherently scummy, because, pro-town people want to help the town win, pretty much by definition.

It's not OMGUS and I started a damn thread about this in MD.

If you attack someone because they're attacking you, your attack is quite often OMGUS, even if you don't realize it yourself. I actually explained that in that MD thread you're talking about. When someone attacks you with a legitimate case, and you respond by calling the case "fluffy" and calling the person attacking you scum, that's pretty much the definition of an OMGUS response, and that's what you did in this game. OMGUS isn't something that only scum do, although it's a scum tell sometimes town get pulled into it without thinking, but the way you're trying to claim your response is something other then what it clearly is is not reasuring to me.

I'm actually kind of disturbed by this defense of yours, actually. Was that MD thread in response to this game? I didn't realize that; if so, it's really not cool to start a MD thread in order to defend yourself from something that is happening in an ongoing game.

[Yosarian2]

Tutorial for how to win a cult game: Lynch the cult leader.

Lynching people we know are not the recruiter is counter productive.

Yes, this. I don't know why this is such a hard concept to get, and I don't know why people are still voting for people like ooba who are clearly not a recruiter.

[Yosarian2]

I thought that during the day it became a double vote?!?

It does. And that's exactly how I said I'd intend to use it, just not until the rest of the votes swing that way. Does that make sense?

Not..really, singer.

Do you really think a one shot doublevoter is more useful to the town then a one-shot vig, in a cult game where we have to kill the recruiters ASAP? I understand that night 1, you replaced in too late to have time to figure out who to kill, but why didn't you try to kill a likely recruiter last night? If you hit a recruiter, town is much better off, and if you hit someone who looked like a possible recruiter but wasn't, then at least that narrows down the list of suspects. Normally I'm a big fan of vigs holding back kills until later in the game, but in a game where there might be two cult recruiters recruiting multiple people every night, I don't see it.

This whole offer to use the double vote instead of a vig kill makes me feel like you're more interested in proving you're not a recruiter then in helping the town, which seems scummy to me.

[Yosarian2]

I thought that during the day it became a double vote?!?

It does. And that's exactly how I said I'd intend to use it, just not until the rest of the votes swing that way. Does that make sense?

Not..really, singer.

Do you really think a one shot doublevoter is more useful to the town then a one-shot vig, in a cult game where we have to kill the recruiters ASAP? I understand that night 1, you replaced in too late to have time to figure out who to kill, but why didn't you try to kill a likely recruiter last night? If you hit a recruiter, town is much better off, and if you hit someone who looked like a possible recruiter but wasn't, then at least that narrows down the list of suspects. Normally I'm a big fan of vigs holding back kills until later in the game, but in a game where there might be two cult recruiters recruiting multiple people every night, I don't see it.

This whole offer to use the double vote instead of a vig kill makes me feel like you're more interested in proving you're not a recruiter then in helping the town, which seems scummy to me.

Ok, so when you say it doesn't make sense, what you really mean is that you don't agree with it. Saying it doesn't make sense when it does only makes you look less intelligent. Just saying.

I'm saying that your move dosn't really make sense if you're town, and makes better sense if you're recruited scum.

In any case, yeah, I could use it tonight before anyone has the chance to recruit me. But you're right, I was trying to prove I wasn't recruited because if I'm wrong tonight (or I was wrong last night), you guys will waste time tomorrow focusing on someone who wasn't recruited and isn't a recruiter.

To me, it sounds like you think I should've used it last night regardless of who I hit. If I was wrong last night, I kill town. If I'm recruited tonight, I kill town anyway. What's the difference? This is to avoid a whole load of crap that could've ensued because of it.

There's a huge difference between "vig that tries to kill a scum, and either hits or misses and kills a scummy looking townie" and "recruited vig that either shoots a claimed pro-town power role or else holds onto the kill until endgame when an extra kill might win the scum the game."

That being said, I actually do want you to use your double-vote today; if you haven't been recruited yet, then using it now means scum won't bother to recruit you, and if you have, then I don't want you to be able to use your kill later. I'm just not really understanding why you, as town, wouldn't have killed; I'd been assuming the kill last night was made by you.

I could always just kill Ooba tonight and get this speculation over with, yeah? That way if I don't kill him, you guys will know I've been recruited to "save my buddy," and if I do, killing him will confirm whether or not he's been recruited, knowing that we won't be wasting a town's extra shot since he already used it.

I...don't know how that works that works. if you actually haven't been recruited yet, then if you send in the kill, and the cult sends in a recruit order on you, I'm not sure which comes first; my gut would be that both would happen at the same time, and you would kill and then be recruited afterwards, but I'm not sure.

In any case: I don't think you're the recruiter, and I do think you should use your double vote; doing so will 100% prove you're not the recruiter, I think. I do have suspicions that you might have been recruited by now, but even if so, I don't want to lynch you now.

[Yosarian2]

So I'm looking at: Yosarin2/ReaperCharlie/Chronopie tonight.

That's fine, but you probably shouldn't talk about who you're going to target if the scum have a roleblocker.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Does it matter? Either they block the doc and recruit him if he hasn't been already, or they block him and recruit the doc.

They didn't block him last night; unless Chrono is lying, it sounds like they decided a roleblocker was a bigger threat then a cop who apparently can't investigate recruiters.

Besides, why would they bother to block him tonight if they know for a fact he's not investigating a member of their cult, when there's so many other claimed power roles? When scum have a roleblocker, which they do if Andreus or Chrono is telling the truth, you don't want them to know who's targeting who; that's just common sense.

Either way, he's not getting any more investigations, which makes me suspect you.

...that dosn't make any sense at all. He may or may not get more investigations, and what does that have to do with my alignment?

[Yosarian2]

Because they don't want us to know who isn't a recruiter?

That he hasn't investigated you sets off alarm bells in my brain.

I really don't get why you think he should have investigated me. You haven't expressed any suspicion of me before.

[Yosarian2]

Slightly tipsy.

I guess I think that a town cop would investigate you, Yos.

That dosn't really make sense. If he's a cop that can only find cult recruits, which is what he claimed, then he should be looking to investigate people he thinks are scum now; finding out that someone is "confirmed not recruited" isn't really all that useful in a cult game where they might just get recruited later. He should also be looking to clear town power roles so we can use their information.

I get that people like Reaper have been pushing the "Yos is good so the scum might have recruited him" theory, but that kind of WIFOM is a pretty weak and unconvincing attack, especially in a game with so many claimed power roles, and no one's made any any other case against me, so I don't get why you're so suspicious of me that you actually think it's suspicious of people who haven't ever been suspicious of me to not investigate me instead of someone more likely to be scum. It's kind of a bizarre chain of logic. Is this just the standard "it's day 3 so it's time to start getting paranoid about Yos" paranoia or something?

Again, if you'd been attacking me on day 2, I would be much less confused by this.

The truth is that Andrius is not acting in a very pro-town manner, and it really shouldn't reflect on you, but in my mind it does.

I don't get it. How?

[Yosarian2]

I get that people like Reaper have been pushing the "Yos is good so the scum might have recruited him" theory, but that kind of WIFOM is a pretty weak and unconvincing attack, especially in a game with so many claimed power roles, and no one's made any any other case against me, so I don't get why you're so suspicious of me that you actually think it's suspicious of people who haven't ever been suspicious of me to not investigate me instead of someone more likely to be scum. It's kind of a bizarre chain of logic. Is this just the standard "it's day 3 so it's time to start getting paranoid about Yos" paranoia or something?

Again, if you'd been attacking me on day 2, I would be much less confused by this.

....you do realize that that my post was directed at gurgi, right? I thought Gurgi's post was odd, considering that Gurgi didn't suspect me on day 2. Of course I know you did, you don't have to quote half the game to show that.

That being said, Gurgi's last post does make sense; he's not saying it's weird Andres didn't investigate me, he's saying it's wierd that Andreus investigated him, and he is right about that.

Andreus: Can you explain your Gurgi investigation?

[Yosarian2]

vote: Yosarian2

Lord Gurgi's side is the town PoV in this most recent conversation between the two. I really think Yos is the recruiter.

This is such a scummy example of a false dilemma. Why would you assume that either me or gurgi is scum here in the first place? What makes you think that there is exactly one and only one person in the conversation between me and gurgi who has a "town point of view"?

I'll post over the weekend with substance

Please do. You're actually fairly high on my rapidly narrowing suspect list for likely recruiters at the moment, mostly because of the way you've stayed in the background for most of the game.

[Yosarian2]

I still think the ooba lynch dosn't make any sense.

Out of the remaining suspects, the ones who I think are most likely to be a recruiter are Friend and Inhim.

Vote:Friend

[Yosarian2]

I still think the ooba lynch dosn't make any sense.

Have you even

read

my posts, Yos2?

Yeah. I still think that the most likely possibility,by far, is that ooba the loose cannon that he says he is.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'm back on the same side of the state as my computer, for the first time since early Monday morning. Much poorer, but my car is no longer a rolling death trap, so hey. Let me see what I missed in this game:

Of the people hopping aboard my suddenly-popular wagon, Gandalf's was the worst.

aim: Gandalf

What makes you think the scum are on your wagon? Why is Gandalf's vote scummy, specifically?

Considering all the effort you spent trying to claim you don't OMGUS, Friend, this vote doesn't make me feel any better about you, especally since Gandalf's been saying he suspected Friend for quite a long time now, while the only thing Friend's said about gandalf is passive-agressive comments about Gandalf's suspicious for Friend like this one:

Gandalf, if you're so confident I'm going to flip scum, why aren't you starting a wagon against me?

'

I really think that if Friend was town, he'd be trying hard to be try and actually find the cult recruiter, especially in the current situation when time for the town is clearly running out, and I don't think he is. All of his "suspicions" seem to be tactical counter-attacks aimed at discrediting people attacking him, without any real scum-hunting element.

Soooo why aren't we lynching the obv_recruit? Its better than a town lynch.

Sure, in the same sense that getting punched in the face is better then getting kicked in the balls. Neither one is something you want to seek out, though.

Every time we lynch a recruit, the odds of a town win drop dramatically.

Anyway, looks like I didn't really miss that much. My top two suspects are still Friend and Inhim. If there are two recruiters working for different teams, there's a good chance it's both of them, IMHO.

[Yosarian2]

I'll investigate one of them tonight.

...why are you still talking about who you're going to investigate? Didn't we establish that that's a bad idea?

[Yosarian2]

Yes, Andreus is right. I am now a recruit, dammit. Which means that town lynching me would lead to very probably town loss at this point.

Each cult has now had 4 chances to recruit. My cult only has 3 members; me=weird was in my cult before he died, and at one point, our cult attempted and failed to recruit Andreus (so, either Robo is telling the truth and he was protected, or else Andreus is in the other cult. We don't have any way of knowing.) The other cult most likely has 5 members right now; if you lynch me today, the other cult will recruit 1 more person, and tommorow may have 6 out of 12 living people in the game in it's group, at which point there is no coming back from that.

What town really needs to do is to lynch the other recruiter today, or, failing that, at least lynch someone in the larger cult, or else town loses tonight, period. Oh, and if you guys don't believe me that I'm in the smaller cult, you guys can actually go back and look at my day 2 interactions with me=weird. I tried to not comment on him at all that day, and when xvart pressured me on me=wierd, I tried to put a little distance between us, while still giving excuses to not vote for him. I was worried it was going to be clear I was buddies with him; I was trying to have it both ways in this post, and never was going to vote him.

Yos2 - since you basically outlined the case on Faraday; can you take a couple of minutes to read M=W's ISO (hint: it won't take long) and do a simple comparison to Faraday? Outside of M=W's case on Friend out of the gate and his "case" on Faraday there is nothing. I would almost say there is less "ruffling of feathers" and more trying to go unnoticed, especially with lack of posting frequency and general content.

So if we are going the route of people trying not to get noticed I think Me=Weird should be considered; coupled with his recent scummy behavior he is today's lynch.

Vote: Me=Weird

xvart.

(nods) Me=Weird is defiantly someone we need to see more good scumhunting from. He really didn't do much, especally on day 1.

The main reason he hasn't gotten much pressure was the conditions in which Seraphim, the guy before him, replaced out on during day 1. The way that he replaced out so his personal dislike of Vez didn't effect the game was pretty odd, and several people said they couldn't see a scum doing it. I'm not completely convinced by that argument, but was defiantly a weird move (no pun intended).

I'd definatly like to hear some more posting from him, in any case. Other then his vote for faraday, I don't really know where me=weird stands on anything. And also, his last two posts bug me, where he says:

This game has succeeded in confusing me. I'm going to get some ISO's done tomorrow or so.

You should hammer. Hopefully D3 will be better. Anyway, not liking chrono to much after skimming his ISO, but there are bigger fish to fry.

No "waiting until tommorow" for iso's, me. We need to hear what you have to say about people now. If you have a case against chrono, or against anyone, say it. "Waiting until tomorrow" to make a case is just absurd in a cult game.

Anyway; TL;DR version. Town needs to lynch a recruiter; every time town lynches a recruit, two more townies get recruited; town lynching recruits is the surest way for town to lose. That's just simple math. And I'm now confirmed to not be a recruiter. Also, town really needs to lynch the recruiter in the larger cult group, the one I'm enemies with, and right now, so do I. I've actually been trying to lynch the enemy recruiter for days now; I really thought Friend was going to flip recruiter, to be honest, and was frustrated when he didn't.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2 - so what is the recruit mechanic? When does it occur? Can the cult either kill or recuit each night; cannot kill; or what? Was your faction responsible for dramatic's death? How about Zwet's death? When were you recruited?

xvart.

Yos, since you seem to be in a sharing mode - who was recruited what night?

Heh. I'm obviously not going to answer any questions that would give the town information that might later be detrimental to my side, which would include most of those.

The point I was making xvart was that I had this crazed suspicion that Yos was covering himself by being 'investigated' as cult, when he's actually cult leader.

So, uh...you think that my master plan involved having a cop fake a guilty on me?

If Andrius was in my scum group, and I wanted him to lie and fake a cop investigation on me to clear me...why wouldn't I have him claim I was innocent?

@ Singersigner: You are killing Yosarin2 tonight, unless there are any better ideas.

If we fail lynch the opposite cult recruiter today, then I'm pretty sure singer has to try to kill that cult recruiter tonight in order for the town to have any chance of winning. If we do, then sure, killing me might be reasonable from her point of view.

Some quick numbers:

My cult: 3 members
The other cult: Probably 5 members
Remaining town: Probably 6 members.
Total: 14

If a recruit from my group lynched today (like me), then tommorow, the town is looking at:

My cult: 3 members (+1, -1)
The other cult: 6 members
Town: 4 members
Total: 13

This is the last day that town is the largest faction, unless the recruiter from the largest cult is killed right now.

If one person who's not in the larger scum group is lynched today, and then at least one other person is killed tonight, then there would be 12 people left alive, and that would end the game, giving the larger cult group a victory. Town needs to lynch the cult recruiter from the bigger cult now, and failing that, needs to try to vig him tonight. Of course, that's not a great backup plan anyway, since he'll have already recruited by then, costing the town another member.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, is there a limit to how large the cult can grow?

Nope. Well, I assume that no cult can recruit someone who's already been recruited, but there's no set size limit.

I ask because your cult needs to ally with the town for now, to shrink the size of the other cult. Yeah, we can't win together, but we will both lose NOW if the other cult isn't stopped.

(nods) Agreed. I'm not going to spend a lot of time publicly commenting on my suspicions today, but my cult will be willing to use our votes to help the town lynch the other cult recruiter. In fact, we need to; it's very unlikely for us to get a majority vote on the recruiter for the larger cult without both our cult and the town working together here.

Also, do you want to take responsibility for any of the NKs- as representative from your cult?

I don't see an advantage to answering this question right now.

[Yosarian2]

They won't win by lynching themselves. Think. For once.

Actually, if there was only one cult group, jestering that would be a reasonable option for recruits. Town lynches a recruit every day, cult recruits a townie every night, cult eventually wins when town runs out of townies. Heck, if there was only one cult, I wouldn't have cared at all if the town lynched me today.

In a two cult game, it probably doesn't work, though.

[Yosarian2]

]How can you assure this won't make it too easy for town to lynch the rest of your cult by paying attention to who follows who. You're the primary limelight here. Everyone's going to be watching your actions to see where you go with buddying and who you vote for. Does your cult trust you with this?

I think you're reading too much into my comment here. All I'm saying is that, if the current setup is "3, 5, 6" like I think it is, then assuming the other cult won't bus their recruiter, then the only possible way to get 8 votes on the large cult recruiter at this point to lynch him is for both the town and at least part of my cult to vote for him today.

Fair enough. What might happen where the advantages of knowing might become apparent?

(shrug) If I was convinced that sharing one specific piece of information would really increase the odds of the town hitting the enemy cult recruiter today, I would consider it.

I guess the viability of his lynch depends largely on whether he's really on the same team as Me=Weird, and on whether we can get a really good lead on a recruiter today.

Well, I certnaly don't expect you to just blindly trust me here.

I think the connection between me and Me=Weird on day 2 should jump out at you, if you re-read my posts for the day; I avoided commenting on him for most of the day, and when I had to, I tried to have it both ways; I defended him, using the serephem replacing out thing, but at the same time distanced myself from my own argument by implying that that defense on him is an argument made by other people that I didn't necessarily agree with.

In any case, the bottom line is, it doesn't really matter if you believe me. Town can't afford to lynch a recruit today; not any recruit, not at all, and I'm confirmed to not be a recruiter.

[Yosarian2]

It probably doesn't matter now, but yeah, I did get a PM that I was blocked on night zero.

[Yosarian2]

So, what, just because I'm not going to take the lead anymore, everyone stops scumhunting? Get going, guys. Those of you who are still town are going to need to take the lead here and find that recruiter.

[Yosarian2]

I think we should be aware that we have no idea about the size of either of the cults beyond yosarians word and actually when it comes to this, I would actually prefer to disbeliever his word.

(shrug) There's no reason you should take my word. However, the town does already know that there's 2 recruits a night, that there have been 4 nights so far, and that only one cult member is dead. No matter if you trust me or not, you should have already figured out most of what I told you, at least in broad outlines.

[Yosarian2]

I'm curious why Yos didn't answer my question about his recruiter's name.

(shrug) I don't see how it benefits my side at this point. There's no reason for me to just share random information here.

Yos: Just humour me and tell me your feelings on an Ooba wagon. What wagon would you prefer if any?

I still think it's unlikely ooba is a cult recruiter, because I don't see him faking that claim as a recruiter, although I don't have any explanation for the odd cop results.

[Yosarian2]

Like I said before, I doubt one cult would make both kills as that would put them too far behind in the recruiting process, provided the assumption that the other cult successfully recruited each night. When Me=Weird died, if one cult killed both dram and Me=Weird, they would be at 2 members to the other cults 4 members at the start of day 3.

So... if the kills are split up (barring any loose canon recruits), each team would have 3 members right now (with a 100% successful recruit rate). Now given all the possible attempts at claimed roles, robo protecting Andy, cross recruiting, I seriously doubt that either team has been successful at recruiting 100% of the time.

The thing you are incorrectly assuming is that either cult would want to give up a recruitment in order to try to kill. I highly doubt that; we wouldn't, and it's highly unlikely the other side would either. It would be a pretty terrible play; there's no reason for it. Recruiting a townie is always better then killing one, and of course if you kill instead of recruit, you lose ground to the other cult as well; it'd just be bad play all around. And if a cult was going to give up a recruit in order to kill someone, then dram or me=weird? That dosn't make any sense either; a desperate cult might give up their recruit in order to kill a power role (we considered doing it in order to kill Andreus, since he was clearly going to investigate me), but there's no logical reason any cult recruiter would give up a kill to kill either one of them.

Dram was almost certainly killed by Zwet. Just read Zwet's posts during day 1 and that should be clear; anyone who knows Zwet knows he was going to kill someone night 1, he's not the type to decide to not kill given the choice, and Dram was clearly his #1 suspect.

I don't know what happened with me=weird, since he was in my group, but it's highly unlikely that the other side gave up their kill just to kill a semi-lurking recruit who hadn't claimed, that doesn't make any sense. Much more likely is that another one-shot vig killed him; possibly one that was recruited by the other side, or else possibly someone who was town when he or she sent the kill in.

Also, you're forgetting the recruiter. If the other cult started with 1 recruiter and has recruited 4 times, they would now have 5 members. If they failed to recruit once (say, if town got really lucky and they tried to recruit someone protected by a cult doc and failed), then they have 4 members. Either way, they'll probably be either as big or bigger then the town tomorrow, unless you guys lynch their recruiter today.

(shrug) Again, of course you shouldn't trust me, but you don't need to, I'm still just telling you guys stuff you should already know. This is all based on public information that all of you already have.

[Yosarian2]

- Answering the above questions (Especially the second) will help prove/disprove Ooba & Singersigner as non recruits which will be invaluable in finding the enemy recruiter as well as preventing a possible mislynch today.

Sorry, I don't have any info that is likely to help in that regard.

Also, any of the information you asked might help find recruits, but I don't see how it'd help you find the recruiter.

And another question:
- What do you think of defending someone who is an imminent lynch today by revealing them as a cultist buddy?

(shrug) If someone is about to get lynched, and they choose to claim to be a cult buddy of mine, I would be in a position to confirm or deny that. I'd probably let them make the call about if they needed to claim.

[Yosarian2]

Therefore you should write off yos as a recruiter only if you believe andrius isn't recruited ..

In that hypothetical, what advantage would there be to andrius declaring me a recrut, voting for me, and starting a bandwagon on me that got 3 votes before everyone realized lynching a recruit is a bad idea, rather then just, say, declaring the he got an innocent on me?

[Yosarian2]

Plz answer my question Yos.

I'm not really answering random questions, obv, but if you mean the question about how many members my cult started with; I kind of already answered that in my numbers post. It started with just the recruiter.

[Yosarian2]

I don't really have much else to say. Mostly just posting so I don't get prodded again. I'll be around when you guys are ready to have me hammer someone.

[Yosarian2]

Why don't you make a choice now? This isn't like me letting the town sway my hammer D3. You're a confirmed recruited, so you can be doing just as much scum-hunting as the rest of us.
Like you've said, it's as much in your best interest to lynch the other cult recruit as it is ours.

I actually can't scumhunt at all right now, which is kind of frustrating since we do need to lynch the other cult recruiter, but if I did scumhunt, people would try to use it to make connections later, to figure out who is or isn't in my cult. The amount of WIFOM involved, people trying to guess if I was or wasn't attacking my recruiter, ect, would just be a huge distraction to everything.

If the town is one vote short of lynching someone I think is likely to be in the other cult, I'll hammer, because once someone is getting hammered people trying to make connections is obviously no longer an issue, and because the town is probably going to need my vote in order to have any chance of lynching the large cult recruiter. But up until that point, I can't really do anything. The town is going to have to get orginized without my help, and they're going to have to do it soon; there's not much time left.

It almost makes me think that one of the top two suspects is your recruiter, but taking a stance on one of them would be suspicious in either avoiding lynching your own recruit

You see what I mean? I haven't commented on anyone since I was outed as a recruit, and you're ALREADY WIFOMing that.

If someone gets to lynch -1, I'm willing to hammer, and like I said, you guys are likely to need my vote. I'm not able to comment on anyone before that point, though.

[Yosarian2]

I just noticed that the 3 claimed LC/4 LC actions discrepancy would explain the singer/ooba confusion, so unless Yosarian comes and tells me cults have the ability to night kill, I'm suddenly more amendable to lynching Ooba.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I'm also not sure how ooba could possibly be a recruiter here. I just don't get it, at all. I get the cop thing, but I don't at all understand how he knew the vigs were called "loose cannons" on day 1. The theory that he knew that because he recruited singer night zero and then used that to breadcrumb day 1 seems really iffy, especially considering how long singer was voting for ooba during a part of day 2 while ooba was in real danger; a recruit bussing her recruiter on day 2 doesn't make any sense at all.

[Yosarian2]

What do you make of the two investigations on ooba that both gave non-results?

I already said that I have no explanation for this. I don't get what's going on there. I just don't see how ooba could be a recruiter and claim the way he did.

Do cult factions have a means to nightkill...

other

than recruited Loose Cannons?

this is like the 23rd time I've been asked this question, and I still don't see any reason to answer it.

[Yosarian2]

So it's my understanding that during the game singersinger vigged someone at random.

Actually, singersinger claims to have a role where she could either make a one-shot vig or do a one-shot double vote, and she apparently chose to double vote instead of using a vig shot.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, ooba-recruits found. Darox, LG, and possibly Yos. In fact, if Yos posts without hammering, I will assume they're in the same cult.

I've been saying for most of the game that Ooba doesn't make any sense as a cult recruiter, and he still doesn't. Almost any lynch is better then no-lynch, and ooba might be a recruit, so I might hammer him if it comes to deadline; but I'd much rather we lynch someone else here.

[Yosarian2]

Ok. We don't want to end the day without a lynch, and gandalf was pretty high on my list of suspects all game. I'll go for this one.

Vote:Gandalf

[Yosarian2]

Also try reading this: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ood_Townie

FWIW, that's pretty much the single worst piece of advice on the entire wiki. Pretty much everything in there is wrong, lol.

[Yosarian2]

1. Why wasn't Yos2 killed (by the cult other than his) last night? Was it because they thought I was right, and that ooba WAS the opposite recruiter, and wanted to kill HIM?

Why would a cult use a kill on a confirmed recruit? Cults would either be trying to recruit more members, trying to kill the other cult leader, or trying to kill a town power role. A recruit is waaaayy down the list.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah yos, as a confirmed cult recruit, what do you think of claiming?

Cult Recruit =/= VT

Dude, why would i claim? And if I did, why would you believe me?

I see no reason in not giving Yos a chance to stop being the useless blob that he is.

"useless blob"? You guys very likely would have no-lynched yesterday if I wasn't here, and the same is probably true today. I'm quite useful, both to the town and to my faction. that dosn't mean I'm going to sit here and give the town all kinds of information that does nothing but hurt my side.

[Yosarian2]

to give you a chance to not be a blob, which you are.

Well, I can't scumhunt anymore, and I'm clearly not going to share random information for no reason. What do you expect me to do?

[Yosarian2]

I am here.

My "hammers only" policy from yesterday still stands, RC. Get Quag to lynch -1, and then you can try to convince me to vote for him.

[Yosarian2]

Wow, this game has degenerated into garbage fast.

If I were town, I would probably be trying to get answers and opinions from people who are choosing to not vote quagmire. If quagmire is the large cult leader, town will quite likely be able to figure out pretty much everyone in his cult just based on who isn't voting here and why. I'm not sure why the activity in this game is dwindling down, or why so many people are neither voting for quagmire nor even commenting on him; most likely explination is that nearly half the people in the game are in a cult with quagmire here.

On an unrelated note,

I will be V/LA for 3 or 4 days for thanksgiving weekend.

[Yosarian2]

My "hammers only" policy from yesterday still stands, RC. Get Quag to lynch -1, and then you can try to convince me to vote for him.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, then, let's see what happens.

Vote:Quagmire

[Yosarian2]

Tra, la la la...

[Yosarian2]

Claims from Lord Gurgi (or did he already claim Goon?), Xvart, and Yos2 (like we'll get anything from those two), would be appreciated.

Yos?

I am The Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, please. You expect anyone to believe that?

Yes, we still have a recruiter alive, but your group is certainly larger then mine. You guys killed off Me=Weird, probably with an unclaimed loose cannon you recruited early, so that put you 1 guy ahead. And we've almost certainly failed more then you have, and I'm pretty sure you know it. If you guys killed off ooba, you clearly must have known you were far enough ahead that you could give up recruitments in order to take potshots at people.

Anyway, you guys don't have a recruiter now, which pretty much makes you a standard mafia group. The biggest threat to your cult isn't us, now; you still outnumber us, we can't recruit you, and if you're as large as I think you are there probably aren't all that many pro-town people left to be recruited anyway, so the lack of your recruiter hardly matters anymore. The biggest threat to your cult is the surviving pro-town power roles. If you get rid of us, how well do you think a standard mafia group going to do against 2 cops and 2 roleblockers in endgame?

[Yosarian2]

Yos2 can still be a recruiter because the night he got exposed he was investigated there were no kills at all.

I'm not going to either verify or disagree any part of your claims at the moment, but if you were telling the truth, you claimed that a cult recruiter who didn't kill that night would show up as innocent, correct? I was investigated when there wasn't a kill, and showed up as a recruit, so if your claim was accurate, I can't possibly be a cult leader.

[Yosarian2]

Ooohhhh...(sings) fluff fluff fluff fluff, fluff fluff fluff...fluffy fluff, fluffidy fluff...fluffy fluff, fluffidy fluff...fluff fluff fluff fluff, fluff fluff fluff fluff

[Yosarian2]

Also, I think we should pressure Yosarin to claim. Not only because he is the last one to not claim (besides Gurgi) but he is confirmed scum in the alive recruiter's cult, and he is the optimal lynch if we can't find the recruiter. In fact my

First Play

is to force a claim from him. I'm expecting him to claim something, and I want to see if I'm seeing this correctly.

I don't really get how you think you can force me to claim anything. Your threat to lynch me is empty, and I'm sure you know it.

[Yosarian2]

Not so.
You are in the cult with the recruiter, and killing you is the 2nd-best play we can make. So yeah

Let me spell it out for you.

I think Xvert's group has either 4 or 5 members. 4 if his group killed ooba, 5 if he didn't. If either of those is true, then I think you have to lynch another member of his group today. If his group has 5 members, then if you don't lynch a member of his group today, town loses instantly. If his group has 4 members, and you don't lynch a member of his group today, then town could lose tonight if there's a lynch today and 2 kills tonight, unless my group managed to kill a member of his group tonight.

Or, you might trust xvert's claims about his group being really small. I don't know why you'd trust him, but if you do, then you still wouldn't want to lynch me today, you'd want to lynch my recruiter. Lynching me in that case could mean one townie gets recruited by us and another gets killed by Xvert, and would bring the town one day closer to losing.

In fact, let me put my money where my mouth is.

Vote:Xvert

[Yosarian2]

Your group had 3 on D4. Its D6. You have 5 now.

Well, you shouldn't assume that. Xvart's cult is big enough that we are going to fail a significant amount of time by targeting someone who turns out to be in the other cult.

[Yosarian2]

I need to assume that: we have to be ready for worst-case scenarios.

It doesn't help you to assume the worst case scenerio, when you're in a situation where if the worst case scenerio is true, the town has already lost. The odds of a town winning a 5-5-1 endgame are close enough to zero to be not worth considering.

In fact, if you think the game is 5/5/1 and that you're the last townie, then the town's already lost, what you should want to do is lynch someone in Xvert's cult, get recruited, and win.

More realistically, in any game, you should always assume a scenario where your side can still win, and play as if that scenario is true (because if it's not, then what you do doesn't matter anyway).

[Yosarian2]

If you guys don't lynch Xvart today, and he's not roleblocked tonight, town is likely to lose to his cult tonight.

[Yosarian2]

What do you mean, Yos? His cult is at 4-5 people, and we still need to hit you guys' recruiter.
So we're also forcing you to shoot him tonight, see?
And that's what I'm doing.
We're lynching your recruiter today, so that you are forced to kill tonight.

Nope. If you guys manage to lynch our recruiter today, then removing one member of the opposite cult is no longer a priority for us. At that point, the biggest threat to us would be the cops and roleblockers, and we would start to shoot those. If they happen to be a member of the enemy cult, hey, bonus, but the biggest factor is that a standard mafia group can't win against 2 roleblockers and 2 cops, so you would have to die.

And I'm sure they've done the same calculations; his claim that he would have killed me was most likely just an attempt to get on the town's good side. He probably tried to kill a power role, and he'll probably do the same again tonight if not roleblocked.

[Yosarian2]

Don't think I don't know it. Trust me.

As town, I see little chance of us winning, to be honest. This is alot like Comedy of Whims; but different at the same time.

I know, trust me, that if we whack your recruiter, whoever he is, that you guys will be shooting at the town- or whatever is left of it right now besides me.
And I fully expect to die before the end of this game. (I'd actually prefer dying as town to being recruited and winning with one of you guys' factions.)
BUT surely you must realize that, while we are a threat, the other cult is much larger, much more co-ordinated, and therein more lethal.

Imagine, with me, that the last three townies are me, Gurgi, and Darox. We don't get along. Gurgi is pretty much calling me useless at every turn and Darox isn't helping much either. So, as a faction, we're doing pretty badly. lol

But if you DO start shoot Cops and RBs you're going to be hitting cultists; RC is Purple; Chrono and Poro are colored. I'm still town, but I'll probably be dead soon anyway.

I do realize that I have little- or no- control over xvart and his team or you and yours. This isn't Comedy of Whims where I'm an vig and can hold people accountable through my Death Note. I do know, however, that I can still pull people together for a lynch while I'm still here.

Right now, I think town's best chance is this.

Today, town lynches xvart, or someone from his team. In that case, xvart's team would have to try to kill our recruiter tonight; they wouldn't have any choice, clearly. Meanwhile, we'd attempt to recruit one more time, but xvart's cult is still large enough that there's at least 50/50 chance we'll miss and target someone already recruited.

So, if you take that route, then we lynch xvart today, making his cult smaller; his group would have to try to kill our recruiter tonight, which he has decent odds of suceeding at, and our cult has a high chance of failing to recruit. There's a significant chance that that puts town in a better place tommorow then they are today, no matter how large or small the town is at this point. I think it's probably your best bet here.

[Yosarian2]

He's still just as useless to town, but you've got to admire someone who can sell snake oil with goddamn grin on his face.

The thing is, I'm actually correct. Lynching xvart is the best possible move for the town here.

Of course, it also helps my side as well, but any move anyone makes at this point is going to hurt one faction and help the other two.

Just a question, if you knew you weren't going to win would you rather my team win or the town?

I actually haven't really considered that at this point. I don't usually think in those terms at all unless it's completely hopeless.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, Christmas tree, oh Christmas tree, your leaves are so unchanging

[Yosarian2]

I really couldn't tell if Yos2 was telling some version of the truth with his "we are small, woe is us" jibberish. I was hoping they had failed at recruiting as much as he was implying because that was the only shot I had.

Oh, no, not at all. We knew you guys tried and failed to recruit me=weird, and we figured you guys later used your kill on him instead of recruiting, so we knew you were tiny.

That was just something I started as soon as I claimed. I wanted to plant the idea that we were the "small cult" right away; partly because it would lower the odds of me getting lynched, but mostly because that way the town wouldn't try to figured out who my recruiter was (which would have let them go back and look at all my behavior and everything) and instead would try to figure out who the other cult recruiter was (since he was the "large" cult)

By the way, everyone, i was town day 1. Most of the attacks on me on day 2 and 3 were based on my day 1 play, which is kind of funny since I was town then and really thought furcolow was scum. I was so frustrated when he flipped cop. Then, I was recruited that night, and was less frustrated that I'd just lynched a cop, lol.

[Yosarian2]

Also, Xvart, I don't know if anyone noticed this or not, but I made a point of REALLY trying to push for your lynch every time someone suggested lynching Robo. My goal was to manipulate the town yesterday into thinking Robo was my recruiter and to make them think I was trying to lynch you to protect him. I didn't really expect town to lynch you, although it would have been nice of course.

[Yosarian2]

Whoa Whoa Whoa,

Let me point out that lynching me was the stupidest idea ever. I was clearly who i said I was. And if I wasn't I would be a recruit. Me being a recruiter was just the stupidest idea.

I don't know how you actually believed for one second that I was a recruiter.

Because your ability was completely unconfirmed.

Now, Andy should have known you were town, since you being town was the only reason he was still town. Everyone else, though, had no way of knowing.

[Yosarian2]

yea, my ability was unconfirmed. But it was obvious i wasnt recruiter.Thats what Im getting at. I wasnt Recruiter.

Hmm? If you were lying about your ability, you were almost guaranteed to be a recruiter; no recruit would have any real reason to lie about their role.

[Yosarian2]

Long version:

Something went wrong here. I'm not certain the setup was all that flawed, though I'm thankful for the changes my reviewers (mykonian and Max) encouraged me to do, they helped immensely.

You can't judge if a cult game was balanced by it's end state, really.

Cult games, by their very nature, tend to end in either an early, overwhelming town victory or a late, overwhelming scum victory. There's really not much middle ground, and so even a cult game that is balanced 50/50 will very often end up like...this.

I do think, though, that you could have given the town power of a type that's a little more effective against cults. Roleblockers that can't stop recruitments and cops that can't find recruiters aren't that much help, for the most part. Better might have been, say, a small unrecruitable mason group. Plus, all the extra power you piled on the recruiters was a little silly; I think you still are underestimating how powerful and basically unbalancing a cult recruiter role is always going to be, let alone a game with 2 cult recruiter roles. There was really no need for, say, that "bribery" ability, or for the recruiter to not be investigatable. A cult recruiter really just doesn't need any help, especially not if his cult can keep killing after he's dead.

To his credit, I think Furc did a pretty good job, and I mention him specifically because I saw some prior game problems and asked him to 'rein it in a bit'. He said he would, and I feel he acquitted himself fairly well.

He didn't do that badly. He made one big mistake, which was how he handled the claim; he claimed "power role" prematurely, realized he shouldn't have, then compounded his mistake by trying a gambit of trying to take back his claim and claim townie. If he didn't do that, he wouldn't have been lynched; as it was, he ended up just looking like scum trying to get out of a bad claim he made. By the time he tried to undo his townie claim and claim cop, he had lost all credibility as far as claims went, and I don't think anyone took him seriously.

Vengeance lynches and personality clashes, though... what a mess that threw into Day One. People, you have GOT to leave out-of-this-game stuff out of games!

Hmm? I'm curious...i didn't really see any vengeance lynches or personality clashes on day 1 at all. People voted furcolow for rational reasons, pretty much all the way through.

The only real "vengeance lynch/ personality clash" I remember was serephem voting vez, and then asking to be replaced out. Of course, Seprehem was recruited scum at this point anyway.

After that, you (town) ran into some bad, bad luck/choices on Night One. One Loose Cannon shot another, a second Loose Cannon shot a Bodyguard (again due to personality conflicts, as far as I could tell)

I don't think any of that was personality conflicts, either; Zwet and ooba had both made their suspicions pretty clear at the end of day 1.

The schtick of their role is that they'd come up unreadable to Enforcers, but were unrecruitable by Sons. They were

supposed

to be the fallback for town getting behind the recruitment curve, but instead by N2 they were all used up!

Did they know they were unrecruitable?

A one-shot vig who knows he's unrecruitable might consider saving his kill until later (although, considering how fast town has to kill the recruiters in order to have a chance, I'm not really sure about that, either). A one shot vig who doesn't know that he's unrecruitable should always shoot right away, assuming he's playing to the town win condition.

[Yosarian2]

The personality conflict was masked by the sheer volume of posts. Oldbies who expected regular posting, VIs who were posting unhelpfully, and spammers who were posting INCESSANTLY all grated on each other.

I...don't really think that's true. I mean, sure, VI's annoyed experenced players, which always happens.

In the end, you compromised on a rather crap lynch (yes yes, I know, D1 sucks).

No, furcolow was by far my #1 choice for lynch on day 1. He was caught lying about his role, in a way that (I didn't think) made any sense for town. It wasn't a compromise lynch at all; I, personally, thought he was by far more likely to be a cult recruiter then anyone else in the game, based on his play, and I wasn't the only one.

Of course, the odds of town actually lynching any kind of scum on day 1 of this game was even smaller then normal.

Bribery was solely in the game to avoid a D1 loss for a Son. Anybody who did that was going to get vigged/dogpiled the next day, so it either bought you one extra Night, or avoided a total rout for their side. It's not like a normal lynchproof where Town might ignore that person from then on, because at least one other role (plus any of their recruits) knew the power existed out there.

Well, that's fine; but the biggest effect it had was that in a 4 scum out of 9 endgame, it meant that if the town had managed to wagon our recruiter, it would have cost them the game instantly, right?

As for the claim that Cults were too powerful, look at what they were up against: 2 Sane Cops, 2 Roleblockers, 3 unrecruitable Vigs, 2 Doctors, and an unrecruitable Cult Doc. The game could VERY easily have swung the other way, it just didn't.

Well, except that, so long as the recruiters were recruiting, the bodyguards, cops, and roleblockers were all completely ineffective against them. Cops that can find recruits but not recruiters, and roleblockers that can't stop recruitments, are actually much more likely to help the cults then to hurt them, especially as they're recruitable. The vigs could have been helpful, but the odds of a one-shot vig taking down a recruiter aren't that high in the best of circumstances.

The town basically has until day 4 or so to lynch at least one recruiter or town loses, and has to lynch them both by day 6 or so at the latest. In a 20 player game, town doing both of those things is just not all that likely (By my calculations, if the town is lynching randomly, the odds of getting both recruiters by day 6 is something like 5%).

Anyway, I don't want to sound too critical. This was an awesome game, it was a lot of fun, and it was run very well. I would just suggest that, if you were to run a game like this again, you'd want to give town powers that do more to prevent the real threat (recruitment and the recruiters), rather then roles that prevent nightkilling and can only catch recruits.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree about Day One. From my perspective, everybody went after EVERYBODY (you had like... 5 vote leaders, and 4 role claims), and Furcolow was picked more or less at random, and the other people with his role refused to corroborate him (because they were mad at him I guess?). Seriously, he wasn't going to be a recruiter with that partial roleclaim, and in a cult game role/lack of role isn't really the reason you lynch somebody, but lynching a claimed Cop!?

You may have the benifit of foreknowlege when it comes to furcolow. The rest of us didn't already know he was a cop.

If you were playing in a game where someone claimed power role, then said he lied and claimed townie, then just as he was about to lynched said he was actually the cop, I doubt you would take the cop claim any more seriously then we did.

By the way, if you do make a succession II, I'd defiantly be interested.

[Yosarian2]

I dont think Flay would ever stick a jester in a setup, particularly one years in the making.

I said recruit playing jester. As in, trying to get lynched.

(nods) That's actually a reasonable option in some cases. That last day, when Andy threatened to lynch me if I didn't claim, I was considering just laughing at him, telling him to do it, and self-voting.