/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Patrick]

Votecount

ekiM (1) -- Ellibereth
zoraster (1) -- VasudeVa
Elmo (3) -- DrippingGoofball, SpyreX, Kmd4390
VasudeVa (1) -- Seraphim
ooba (1) -- Papa Zito
DrippingGoofball (1) -- mith

Not voting: Everyone else
17 alive, 9 to lynch.

Deadline: 11th of September, 6 am GMT.

[DrippingGoofball]

All is right in the world, I got my Elmo love back.

unvote

Now, Elli's ekiM vote seems pretty mysterious.

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote zoraster

[Plumegranate]

Hey guys. I'm back.

I read the first few pages of the thread, and I'm going to be continuing (and hopefully concluding) my read-through this evening.

Plum has also summarized what has gone on in-thread for me, but I do want to get my own grip on the game. More later.

-Pom

[Herodotus]

Welcome back to the internet, and welcome to the game.

Let's assume Elmo is telling the truth (he has a good argument, so I think only "the real vig" would be confident in saying he's scum, and we don't want a claim.)
Either KMD is telling the truth, or he is both reckless and lucky.

I was planning to copy+paste votecounts and color code (with Elmo and KMD having their own color between green and black,) but at the moment I don't feel like doing that much work.

@Mod: I don't see anything in the rules about restricted colors; are there any?

An observation: mith has been the most helpful person so far regarding strategy, but is giving me a negative gut feeling outside of that. It might just be the result of his tunneling on a townie yesterday.

[Ellibereth]

DGB, why'da make that nice chart for Amished suspects when you thought Amished was the scumkill, and not one for tajo when it's probably that he was.

[Seraphim]

Elmo: I recall yesterday you said you were interested in engaging in a discussion concerning the possibility of VV-scum. It kinda got overshadowed by the Hoopla wagon and the approaching deadline. Would you be interested in engaging in that discussion now?

[DrippingGoofball]

@ Elliscum

BECAUSE:

Tajo was the vig kill. No, I am not claiming vig. It is just painfully obvious.

I knew that KMD was hinting at role-based info, so I took it for cash to the bank.

[ooba]

- If elmo had been tracked to tajo, the correct play would have been to ask him to shoot himself as that frees up a lynch.
- As a player who re-reads the game during night and wherein my reads change - I don't think its scummy to vig someone on whom you had no suspicion the previous day.

Therefore the correct play is to let elmo live. If he is the vig, he is either going to be killed\roleblocked today. If he is not the vig, the real vig will kill him tonight.

---

Post 801 gives me the vibe of trying to appear useful ..

Unvote. Vote: VV

[Plumegranate]

Hoopla's mega post was POWERFUL WIZARDRY.

Vote: ekim

FoS: Plumen, Vas, KMD

You win some, you lose some, but an EkiM wagon could

go places

. Zito's ooba vote is understandable, but overall Ekim's behavior with the focus of Zoro's alleged slip, and the focus on reexplaining his position thar.

Sera, I'm not certain wagon-hopping is scum-VV or imply plain old VV. I sympathize with you on the attempts to discredit the wagon on him in ludicrous ways, certainly, but am having doubts, partly because [REDACTED].

The use of the janitor means that the scum had much less reason than usual to avoid the Hoopla wagon (though if the competing wagons (zora, Vas and to a lesser extent KMD) were on townies, they also had little reason to care enough to be on it.) However, they DID bother to cover up Hoopla. The question is, why?

Because it was used on a presumable townie, this doesn't matter as much as it could have, but in theory, the janitor role made the scum have slightly less incentive to bus each other before it was used. Using it on the first member of their team to be lynched would have been the sensible play.

While it's possible scum used the Janitor in an attempt to disguise a bunch of them piling onto her, I'm inclined to think that something akin to normal distribution (that is, without most/all of scum on or off the lynch wagon) is most likely. Long-term risks of extended shady associations is fairly likely. Maybe my thinking is colored by the fact that just now I've become fairly confident in Kmd-Town for obvious reasons, never thought Zoro was much scummy, and am having doubts about VV, but. Simply casting doubt on the motivations of the Hoopla wagoners and those who avoided the wagon, and the prospect of drawing the Town into a maelstrom of WIFOM about that was probably enough, and that's why Hoopla acting scummy actually drew them into doing it, and why the gambit worked. I suppose it's a combination of 1 and 3 according to your classification, but. I don't think the conclusions are that scum were voting Hoopla much more heavily than usual on a popular Day 1 mislynch.

Vig shoots Elmo tonight is obv the best plan.

Was inclined towards Elmo-scum, but he's been pretty reasonable overall here, and then again what sort of Vig takes out TAJO of all people last Night? Above plan takes care of those worries, and I'm all for removing WIFOM headaches with bullets.

[SpyreX]

Hrmm.

Since you quoted me at the start I'll respond to the only thing I shook my head at:

I actually think you would actually find literally any choice of shot suspicious unless they flipped scum, because either they'd contradict what I've already said or they'd be people you think are bad choices.

No. If you had shot KMD, DGB,or VV and claimed that shot there wouldn't have been any doubt (on the flipside I would have lynched the hell out of you with a Zor shot). I -kind- of see what you are saying about Amished but ultimately, after washing the bad taste of a terrible few days out of my mouth Mith et al is right - it is a wash(ish). You're either blocked as town or dead as scum.

So,

Going out for a movie but I'm not done with this.

OMG LAL

Unvote, Vote: VV

[VasudeVa]

Greaat, now that I'm actually trying to be useful, people attack me for trying to be useful. Geez, you people are hard to please.

Vote: ooba

@Seraph: Daytalk. If you've played scum with Daytalk before, you'd know that I don't have daytalk. Do you honestly believe that my scumbuddies would coach me to be dense and play like I did? Don't you think that maybe after like, the 3rd or 4th vote they would've 'Yo Vas, stop BWing lol'. And when people started calling me out on Daytalk, do you think my scumbuddies would say 'Yo Vas, attack everyone attacking you lol.'

[Patrick]

@Mod: I don't see anything in the rules about restricted colors; are there any?

There aren't any, as long as we can see them easily.

[Kmd4390]

For clarification, elmo shot AMISHED, not tajo.

---------

Vas, don't sit her and act like every bit of any scum post is a direct effect of daytalking coaching.

[VasudeVa]

Not necessarily. But if you've been under as much pressure as I have, don't you think that would have been a prime time to ask your scumbuddies for help?

[Kmd4390]

No.

[VasudeVa]

k.

[Rhinox]

Gettin' caught up...

Hero #753: I don't see a reason to disbelieve hero, but its an awefully long post that basically boils down to "Hai guys I'm town because I saw hoopla's gambit and scum still used the jan". Thats nice, but... so what? I mean, I think you're town for now, but thats what scum you wants me to think, right?

I didn't see the breadcrumbs FWIW. I'm glad the jan was used, now we can forget about it for the rest of the game. Hoopla's allignment is pretty irrelevant - assume town, and worst case is we're assuming an extra scum that doesn't exist.

-------

Lots of unexplained voting going on by post #760 - waiting to see if any of it will be explained by the time I catch up to the present.

-------

Lots of talking about elmo, KMD: I think they both are who they say they are. To assume elmo is scum is to assume a real vig killed tajo. If a real vig killed tajo, elmo gets vigged tonight. QED. I presume if a second vig exists, they're smart enough to figure out not to target elmo unless they killed tajo?

-------

Spyrex, I'm not going to be happy with you unless VV is scum.

I also can't believe town-spyrex takes so long to see that lynching a claimed vig is a bad idea when we can leave it to the night to sort it out without risk.

-------

- If elmo had been tracked to tajo, the correct play would have been to ask him to shoot himself as that frees up a lynch

Not exactly. That might be true in a game where the presence of a vig is unknown and the presence of an sk is possible, but in this game, 2 kills proves at least 1 vig exists. There should never be a reason to ask a claimed vig to shoot themselves in this game.

-------

So, where I'm at right now...

Town

(in no particular order)
DGB
Elmo
KMD
Hero
Troll
VV

Everyone Else

ekiM
Ellibereth
mith
MME + SK
ooba
PZ
Plum
Seraph
Spy
Zora


Narrowing it down is tough though. Just finished iso-ing the entire list, and nobody is obvscum.

Vote: ekim

FoS: Plumen, Vas, KMD

This thread needs moar dead ooba.

VOTE: ooba

I'd like some reasons for these 2 votes.

I'm not seeing how anything productive is going to come out of nightkill speculation just now, and I do see a rather big negative (Vig-fishing).

For that (and other reasons):

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

And the "other reasons" for this one.

[mith]

ATTN: EVERYONE

Commenting on the nightkills is still a bad idea.

Elmo may be town (and if he is, the Vig has already been outed and it doesn't matter); but if Elmo is scum,

he and the other scum are still looking for the real Vig

.

It would be foolish to ignore our personal feelings about Elmo's innocence/guilt in trying to decide who is scummy and should be lynched, but comments about the likelihood of a tajo Vig kill vs. an Amished Vig kill are just giving the scum information.

---

Rhinox: Read 430/431, 729 to start with. Add a pinch of Vig-fishing, and that her reaction to Kmd's softclaim doesn't sit well (regardless of Elmo's alignment, it would seem to be in scum's best interest to jump on the soft claim immediately: either distancing from Elmo/earning town points/running Elmo up to claim and pulling out the real Vig, or free lynch on a power role).

[Kmd4390]

Mtih, the scum already know that elmo killed amished and they know whether they killed amished or tajo. They already know who killed who, so I don't see what extra information they can possibly be getting.

[ekiM]

If Elmo is scum and someone else is the vig people might be ruling themselves out of contention for being the vig by saying "I think Tajo must've been the scum kill", for example. Agree all that needs to be said on this has been said. KMD is town, we'll all know if Elmo is town tomorrow. Stop talking about it.

[Kmd4390]

K.

[ekiM]

I don't think KMDscum is bussing Elmoscum. I don't think KMDscum fabricated a result on Elmotown that happened to be true. So I'm rolling with "KMD is confirmed town". We'll have to wait for tomorrow for the truth on Elmo.

Bonus scumpoints to Ekim for joining the Zoro wagon for weak evidence and his reiteration of the case, this time with quotes, afterwards when he unvotes Zoro to vote Kmd (WTH, was there even more support for Kmd-wagon than Zoro-wagon then?) makes it seem more forced, and like he's more hung up on justifying his vote.

but overall Ekim's behavior with the focus of Zoro's alleged slip, and the focus on reexplaining his position thar.

I joined the zoro wagon because... that's the one I liked best. I thought the slip could be good evidence and I thought the Hoopla and VV wagons were garbage. I didn't have any amazing revelations to start a new wagon a few days before deadline.

I reiterated the evidence later because mith asked people to explain why they liked which of the popular wagons. I moved to KMD because the zoraster wagon had died, and Hero seemed to think the KMD one might have some life if people started joining it.

Not seeing how any of this is scummy.

---

If Elmo had a big re-read to find new suspects last night I'd quite like to know who his other suspects are. Or was it just Amished?

---

VOTE: DrippingGoofBall for going from "Hoopla is a townie who's an easy target" early D1 to "Hoopla is scum giving up" without any real change in what Hoopla was doing.

[DrippingGoofball]

Hi scum. Is Elli bus'ing you?

Hoopla was making herself scarce in the face of a growing wagon. I considered that to be scum giving up.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox: Read 430/431, 729 to start with. Add a pinch of Vig-fishing, and that her reaction to Kmd's softclaim doesn't sit well (regardless of Elmo's alignment, it would seem to be in scum's best interest to jump on the soft claim immediately: either distancing from Elmo/earning town points/running Elmo up to claim and pulling out the real Vig, or free lynch on a power role).

OK wasn't sure if the "other reasons" were previously stated in thread or new reasons.

Agree all that needs to be said on this has been said. KMD is town, we'll all know if Elmo is town tomorrow. Stop talking about it.

I don't think KMDscum is bussing Elmoscum. I don't think KMDscum fabricated a result on Elmotown that happened to be true. So I'm rolling with "KMD is confirmed town". We'll have to wait for tomorrow for the truth on Elmo.

o_O

If Elmo had a big re-read to find new suspects last night I'd quite like to know who his other suspects are. Or was it just Amished?

TRANSLATED:

pssst... elmo, level with me, who's on your short list for tonight so we know if we should block you? *wink*

VOTE: ekiM