NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[flinter]

I am going to try to make this readable.

Dana's early play (around UA) is weird. Would anyone, by chance, have a scumgame from dana for me?

I seriously doubt that Dana and Wraith would be scum together, seen the early game.

I think it is highly unlikely that Nhammen and UA are scum together

215 by wicked convinces me again. He is right in calling mysterio opportunistic. VOTE: mysterio

Or rather, newb Town says this person has done such and such actions, which could be scummy, but it isn't good enough for a vote. The only comments Bunny has done were saying that the arguments between dana and furc meant nothing. That could still be newb Town... I'm not sure.

On the other hand, Bunny has only been refusing to comment. hiphop has been both refusing to comment and using opportunistic votes. And, while I would like to see some Wraith pressure, nobody else seems to agree, so
[uvnote]Wraith[/unvote]
VOTE: hiphop

after the danawagon has disappeared, scum isn't going to start a new wagon on their buddy. Seen earlier votes on hiphop, this might be scum trying to give that bandwagon momentum.


This should help you a bit. I'm now halfway, and after I finish tomorrow, I'll pick out a few players that I'd like to give more attention.

[Robbnva]

Dana was scum in this one

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13889

[Robbnva]

ok reading back and seeing the way Wraith has handled him being voted, this is not how I personally act if I was a townie being wrongly lynched, I can't even imagine any townie would act this way if they were being lynched, I would try to do a better job of convincing people instead of "ALL ABOARD THE MISLYNCH TRAIN" :rolleyes:

Vote Wraith[/b[

[Robbnva]

bold fail

Vote wraith

[Benmage]

v/la til monday

Gotcha. -Mod

[Mysterio]

Hey myst? What happened to that awesome scumhunting I saw before? Why are you staying so far under the radar this game?

My activity in all of my games is shit, and will continue to be until I hammer out a workable routine now that school has started up again. Don't expect anything similar to my previous play.

Also, I think my vote on Wraith is well placed. It doesn't require a huge post to point out Wraith's laughable play Day 1 with his self-lynch proposal and his ridiculous reaction at the start of Day 2, including the self-vote. Wraith has been suspicious to me since way back in post #444. No reason to vote anyone else at this point.

[ConfidAnon]

An updated look at Wraith

The original case is here.

He spends mucho time speaking out against a Frank lynch. Nulltell there, however, this is interesting. Two days after vehemently being anti-Frank lynch, we get these two posts:

Okay, catching up some more, I'm losing faith in my defense of Furcolow faster and faster, especially with the scumslip post Wicked pointed out. TBH however, I think it can be safe to believe there's a possibility that there are two scum groups, considering the size of the game, but I suppose the scumminess of that comment comes from the certainty. Also, lynching the claimed cop is STUPID no matter how you look at it. If we're trying to avoid lynching our power roles I think we're better off lynching you, because you've denied my wild speculation that you're a PR playing VI to avoid a nightkill. Even if we don't lynch, he draws a nightkill or at least a roleblock, if there is a scum roleblocker. Better for him to die at night and given a chance than struck down by the town after he's claimed. I'm also doubting myself over Furcolow because of his continued ultra-scummy play, specifically his jumping onto the most popular wagon whenever he sees it. I believe he's on the hiphop wagon now?

However, I'll add that either way I think me voting Frank will end up as a lose-lose for me. I'll immediately get hit by a wall of bussing accusations, and if he flips scum I'll probably be the Day 2 lynch. If I vote for him and he flips town, I'll still probably get lynched Day 2 for suddenly flip-flopping on my stance and joining his very popular wagon. But whatever, I don't really care, because my lynch would save a PR from being mislynched. I still honestly think lynching Frank is a bad idea in the long run, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Vote: Frank

This is spectacularly scummy. Not only does he does he softly prepare himself to vote for Frank in the first post (a complete 180 from his reads in the previous day), but he ends up joining the Frank wagon while stating that "lynching Frank is a bad idea." There is an obvious contradiction in there. This sounds like scum distancing from a Townie lynch, and doing a poor job of it.

Also note the unneccessary AtE attached to the action. In this case, it's scummy. "I know this is scummy, I know your going to vote for me, but I'm doing it anyway." Ok . . . so? Your point is? Sounds like an attempt to ward off potential voters with a weak emotional statement.

How about this: If you flip town, I'll take a chunk of time out to make a study on Xite. If you flip scum, I'll just check to see if Xite might have been bussing.

Now that I've been reminded of this, I'm gonna hold it against you.

Please post that soon.

And it's far too early for one mislynch to destroy the town's hopes, even if you'r a PR (which I suspect you're trying to imply). If you're a PR you've played it terribly and you need to change up your play for future games.

The first bit is scummy. From my experience in mafia on other sites, the scum are more likely to use "rallying cry" type statements like "It's alright! One mislynch won't hurt us!" or "Come on, we can still do this!" as an attempt to appear protown. It doesn't affect much in the long run, but the little bit of good favor with the other players goes a long way in if they are willing to lynch you or not (regardless of how vehemently they deny it.)

That's pretty much all the notable new scummy behavior from Wraith for Day 1.

Day 2 has given us what I still have no other reason to believe is a pure OMGUS vote, a self-vote, and AtE. Why are you avoiding giving content today? Yesterday, even though you were scummy, you still put your own thoughts out there. Why none today?

[@.@]

I don't know that I agree with your first point. Town players are allowed to change their minds, and to me the first wraith post you quote reads pretty much like a town player changing his mind based on new evidence (especially since it was day 1). I can see your point that he's setting himself up to go either way on it, but really I don't think thats particularly more likely (or even more likely at all) then a town player just deciding that he has changed his mind. Is there any particular reason why you think it is?

@Xite: I wasn't saying "look at me." I was saying "look at these attacks." In fact, I would have said the same thing even if someone else had posted a case I found valid that was being ignored (don't expect you to believe that, since its not verifiable, but FWIW)

In what sense were you saying "Why have these posts been ignored?"

[ConfidAnon]

I don't know that I agree with your first point. Town players are allowed to change their minds, and to me the first wraith post you quote reads pretty much like a town player changing his mind based on new evidence (especially since it was day 1). I can see your point that he's setting himself up to go either way on it, but really I don't think thats particularly more likely (or even more likely at all) then a town player just deciding that he has changed his mind. Is there any particular reason why you think it is?

The second post, imo, reeks of scum trying to "buffer" a switch to a Townie vote, so to speak. The AtE thrown in there, specifically. Almost like trying to admit something is scummy to make it less scummy (I feel like there's a better way to say what I'm trying to say, I just can't figure it out yet.) I agree that the first post on it's own is null. However, in conjunction with the scummy post changing the vote, it feels more like a scum vote setup than a town opinion change.

[@.@]

Forgive my ignorance, since it's been a while since I've played with any frequency, but I am not familiar with the abbreviation "AtE"

[Gorrad]

Flinter, are you honestly suggesting we lynch one of the more experienced players solely on the fact that they're an experienced player? Protip: Experienced townies are usually a lot better than newbies. Sure, experienced scum are often a lot better than newbie scum, but the odds are that there's going to be a lot more experienced town than experienced scum, and experienced town can catch experienced scum. Lynching based on experience is a, to be honest, shitty way of narrowing down who to lynch. Especially early game.

Lol, no. Dana asked who she should investigate, those were my answers. If you catch experienced scum that way, you've lost a big problem. If you confirm experienced town that way, the positive effect is much bigger then that you would have confirmed an unexperienced player.

Aha! That makes more sense. Thanks : )

IGMEOY = I got my eye on you

AtE = Appeal to Emotion

[Gorrad]

AtE also = Active Time Event. When the ATE window pops up, select an active time event to watch. This lets you see what's going on in the story in multiple places at the same time.

[hiphop]

An updated look at Wraith

The original case is here.

However, I'll add that either way I think me voting Frank will end up as a lose-lose for me. I'll immediately get hit by a wall of bussing accusations, and if he flips scum I'll probably be the Day 2 lynch. If I vote for him and he flips town, I'll still probably get lynched Day 2 for suddenly flip-flopping on my stance and joining his very popular wagon. But whatever, I don't really care, because my lynch would save a PR from being mislynched. I still honestly think lynching Frank is a bad idea in the long run, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Vote: Frank

Ok you convinced me based on that quote. It clearly shows that even though he believes Frank to be town, he is still willing to vote him. This of course made me even look at the below quote differently.

Also, I think my vote on Wraith is well placed. It doesn't require a huge post to point out Wraith's laughable play Day 1 with his self-lynch proposal and his ridiculous reaction at the start of Day 2, including the self-vote. Wraith has been suspicious to me since way back in post #444. No reason to vote anyone else at this point.

i originally thought that Mysterio was redirecting, because of the fact that he said that he said wraith's play was laughable. To me it looked more like he was calling his play poor rather than scummy. And does poor play make someone scum? Then it hit me that wraiths play day 1 was more like scum attempting to take the hit, and later coming back and saying "i was willing to die would scum do that? " Not only that but the fact where he was defending a townie and saying he would rather die than an unknown alignment is in itself scummy. First off he had to know Frank wasn't scum and secondly he was willing to die when he knew he was a townie in order to save someone else of unknown alignment. Wraith wouldn't it have been better to have a no-lynch than for a townie to die? i don't think he is a townie. So once again i am joining the most popular wagon.

vote wraith

i do however think that his self-vote was not indication that he is scum, and don't think that should be used against him. Just look at UA.

Mysterio- Do you find anyone else scummy?

Xite-The reason why it was too late to post a case is because it was already 11:30 at night with work at 7.

[Xite91]

@Hip-hop - Post a case now? (I don't remember your suspect, but I'll go back and check later) Oh, by the way, your bussing techs are terrible and you're the next person I'm coming after
@Rob - Scratch what I said before, you are, then hip-hop
@Mysty- Fair enough
@CA - You're playing totally different than how I'm used to you playing. I have to meta another player in another game, but when I finish I'm checkin you out next

[Robbnva]

@Rob - Scratch what I said before, you are, then hip-hop

and what exactly about me do you find suspicious? I totally believe my reason for voting wraith is a valid one, more so than some of the other votes on him or on others

[Shanba]

EBWOP because I have a short attention span:

It's fair to say singsign wasn't coaching David.... still a bit leery of her, BUT the coaching thing was the only/major reason I suspected her. I'll have to iso her [too, along with Wicked].

That's a shame, because it was never a very good reason in the first place, but whatever. Why are you now leery of her? Just because you need some kind of opinion on something? Notably, SS is the only person you've suspected all game. If you read her iso and decide she's town, then what - you'll have to move on to wicked as your lone suspect? You never gave an opinion on the frank or the dana wagon which frankly is an abdication of responsibility.

Flinter has voted for mysterio as anticipated.

Unvote

I don't think Wraith is scum. I don't agree that the shift on position on Frank is particularly scummy - if you read my posts you'll notice a similar thing happening with my read on dana (though in the opposite direction). More to the point, though, that kind of repositioning requires a degree of bravery, and hence is more likely to come through conviction of belief than desire to jump on a lynchwagon.

The rest of the Wraith case is not overly convincing.

Hiphop still needs to up his contribution. I am in horror of suddenly realising it's day 4 and we still have nothing we can use to determine his alignment. I also think he's still scummy, but

Vote: Porochaz

because I want to explore a different avenue instead.

[ConfidAnon]

@CA - You're playing totally different than how I'm used to you playing. I have to meta another player in another game, but when I finish I'm checkin you out next

I don't know why, but some games really click with me and I feel like my participation is alright, but other games I just kind of fall apart in. I'm really inconsistent.

[flinter]

I'm not going to follow you now, Shanba apparently we disagree about Porochaz

[DavidParker]

"bah"
go town!

[Flameaxe]

Votecount 2.4

Wraith [7] (Xite, ConfidAnon, danakillsu, Gorrad, Mysterio, Robbnva, Hiphop)

Bunnylover [2] (@.@, Benmage)
Hiphop [1] (Prozac)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UltimaAvalon)
dana [1] (Reck)
Prozac [1] (Shanba)
Mysterio [1] (Flinter)

Not Voting [7] (Kise, Wickedestjr, Singersigner, Orochi, Sebguer, Bunnylover, Wraith)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

In other news, no bites for replacing Orochi and Sebguer as of right now. Gonna go bump the signup thread and my replacement thread post. Tell your friends to replace, tell your enemies too.

[Gorrad]

I don't think Wraith is scum. I don't agree that the shift on position on Frank is particularly scummy - if you read my posts you'll notice a similar thing happening with my read on dana (though in the opposite direction). More to the point, though, that kind of repositioning requires a degree of bravery, and hence is more likely to come through conviction of belief than desire to jump on a lynchwagon.

The rest of the Wraith case is not overly convincing.

I'm quoting this so when I reread my posts later on I'll be reminded of it. It stands out to me as important.

[Benmage]

Con makes a good point I'd look into it more if I had computer access but I'm away. That said,

vote wraith

[Benmage]

I don't get the poro vote nor this....explore a different avenue....what you want people to aimlessly follow, or to question your vote....could've saved some time and already explained, but go ahead and do so now._

[Wickedestjr]

I think the first people we need to look at are the people who avoided the frank bandwagon, in my mind it is those people who have a better chance of being mafia.

Why?

@Porochaz - Fair enough.

1. he only posts 3 times and 1 is a confirm post
2. he avoids a frank bandwagon, and he tries to throw other names out there to distract people from frank
3. he criticizes another player for lack of posting, but the game has been open for 6 days when he posts only is 3rd post
4.a.) his biggest and most telling tell, he is getting "null" vibes from all the people he just names (me being one of the ones he named) and he is getting "pro town" vibes on 3 or 4people but refuses to name him, b.) why on earth would he not name those people unless those people he is protecting.

1. Orochi isn't the only person guilty of having a lack of posts.
2. Frank was town, so why is avoiding the bandwagon scummy exactly? Also, what gave you the impression that his reads were given to distract us from the Frank bandwagon? This looks like you are trying to protect yourself or your scumbuddies that were on the bandwagon.
3. Valid.
4. a.) First of all, you have hardly given any of your reads so please don't use this as a point against another player. Secondly, this point is a misrep anyway. I think he made it perfectly clear that he suspected you (otherwise he wouldn't have voted for you).
b.) Many players believe that giving town reads is only good for scum because it tells them who to nightkill. Orochi doesn't need to give his town reads unless one of them is about to get lynched.

@wicked: You probably remembereed wrong, but I don't really care. If you are so sure that I am scum then lynch me. I dare you.

You did in fact say that you were fine with getting lynched:

If I vote for him and he flips town, I'll still probably get lynched Day 2 for suddenly flip-flopping on my stance and joining his very popular wagon. But whatever,

I don't really care

, because my lynch would save a PR from being mislynched.

Secondly, I never said you were scum. I actually have a pretty strong town read on you.

Wicked's deduction that there is a SK doesn't sit well with me.

Unless this is a Mafia and Werewolves setup, which isn't a possibility I orginally thought of, then it only makes sense for the nhammen kill to have been from an SK.

Why the hell is Wraith self-voting?

Do you not have a problem with UA's self vote?

He's got that same self-assured attitude he had in our last New York game where he was scum (remember that one, SK-Reck?).

I'm not sure what you mean here. Have you seen me not have this attitude as town?


dana, discussing who the cop should investigate is a terrible idea.

I think it is highly unlikely that Nhammen and UA are scum together

Why?

215 by wicked convinces me again. He is right in calling mysterio opportunistic. VOTE: mysterio

Do you think Mysterio is the only opportunistic player in the game?

hiphop, are you going to start scumhunting soon? It's not day 1 anymore and you've done none of it. You promised us a case but haven't given it and have instead decided to vote Wraith for another player's points.

Flinter has voted for mysterio as anticipated.

You've read my mind.

Vote: Flinter

I get the impression that either she is very careless about her vote or is bussing her buddy Mysterio:

1. She catches up and brings up lots of points against dana and Xite, yet votes Mysterio for one point that I brought up. That seems kind of strange to me.
2. After voting Mysterio it seemed like she didn't care about what he said and wanted to watch me argue with him instead, because she completely ignored his defense.
3. I pointed out point #2 in the thread, and she said that it was because she wasn't paying attention to the person who she was voting for which looks very opportunistic. In addition, she said that Mysterio hadn't defended against the opportunism point yet doesn't directly say anything to Mysterio. It is completely obvious that she doesn't care about her vote on him.

[Wickedestjr]

I think there are 1-2 scum amongst Robbnva, Mysterio, and hiphop.

The bandwagon on Wraith looks like a bandwagon on an easy target. There are much better lynch candidates.