Mini 1039 Lost: Season One (Over)

[jasonT1981]

Already told the Mod, but Just a heads up, I am taking a short V/LA... trying to get back into college on a work placement course. Should be back by tomorrow evening. Just have a lot of paperwork and stuff to get sorted out as well as finding a work placement to go along with my course subject..

[chesskid3]

Man I don't even feel like resopnding to BloodCovenent, his arguments are so stupid.

Whatever, if someone who isn't him actually believes that anything he says I said was scummy, I'll be happy to explain myself.

[HackerHuck]

How about putting together a case besides 'these guys didn't think Vezok was a lyncher'?

[chesskid3]

Ok well I had nothing else to do today (oh the joys of September-starting college)
Iso on BloodCovenent:
#0 Dram, Cow, and Reck are town. No more content from me until i get to real internet which will be tomorrow night.

Erm Cow and Reck aren't play so I'm confused. But I've seen him do this sort of random declaration before, so null tell.

#1 jumps on Vezo for copying him. Shrug

#2 Ok whatever those last two posts were in the wrong game apparently, whatever.

#3 Asks about familiarity with Lost (starts that discussion)

#4 Suggests mass nameclaim (starts that discussion)

#5 Chainsaw defense on SeraFera, jumps on the Dekes wagon (also doesn't comment on it being L-2, though I had right above and below him)

#6

Whatever you say dekes. I follow a claim of you being ethan which makes sense as a scum role what else was i supposed to do, ignore it? You may call me opportunistic but it was no way opportunistic. I am, believe it or not rather good at keeping track of thresholds and if someone were to come in and vote quickly I would have unvoted to let the day evolve so that you had time to claim or rebuttal. No doubt I do agree that occasionally the third or fourth vote on a player can be opportunistic. However scum-bloodcovenent would blindly jump on a wagon as the late voter with no reasoning. As you may ask what my reasoning is... well.... it's that there was a claim that your role was of an "other." And they are bad in season 1. Therefore i felt confident in you as a lynch. Note that it doesn't make sense for Scum Vezo to so early give off a fake claim though. Because i would assume he knows that if you flip town, he will be ultimately hung tomorrow. -One of the reasons why I followed him.

Anyways. I'll stall the wagon for now.

Unvote:
Vote: Ademisk

scum.

Responds to Dekes claim and (OMGUS/slight scum read on the quick-bandwagon hop) vote on BC with an argument that boils down to this:
Start with some derision,There was a cop lol!,you might think something but u wrong lol (world's longest sentence -> using emotion, not logic. Also this whole post gives an AtE vibe), then some nonsense about what a scum-BC would do, then repeats the first sentence argument again.
Also, the sentence "Because I would assume he knows that if you flip town, he will be hung tomorrow" ...Given future knowledge (or current knowledge if scum), that can read as Wow we get to lynch a town,nk a town,then lynch a town tomorrow, Blam 3 townies down.

Then votes Ademisk.

#7 Comments that Magna first brought up the idea of a lyncher. Doesn't actually stop to think for a second about what that implies.

#8 Now that the Dekes wagon appears to have stopped, points out some random scum-tell on Vezo (perhaps going for a vezo wagon, because one town is as good as another, right?

#9 Random WIFOM for 1.2.3, then talks about lyncher some more without actually stopping to think a about it.

#10 Null.

#11 "Personally. i think giving scum fake claims whether full or not makes for a lazy and poor scumteam"
Adding this to part of ISO-9, "1. You assume they have fake claims. If they did, this would be the first game that i have been in that scum were given fake claims aside from just suggesting that they claim Spartacus."
and from ISO-4 "I feel that if everyone name claimed only then that would make it harder for others to fake claim later. just my opinion =/"

If BC were scum with a good fakeclaim supplied, this is pretty reasonable distancing from the idea that he is fakeclaiming.

#12
Calls FaraSera scummy, after chainsawing him in Iso-5. I didn't see any change in FaraSera's play during those pages, and they are pretty high on my town list.
Also, FaraSera was called scummy for a policy lynch suggestion that was on page 1 or 2, but isn't commented on until page 9, then it is suggested that between Ademisk and FaraSera there is a scum. Distraction.
Criticizing Dram for actually waiting for a claim from Dekes before putting him at L-1 (OH THE HORROR)

Complains about Dekes not full-claiming, when that is very anti-town. Dekes is right to have said the minimum amount to move the wagon off of him, and I don't want him to say anything else that will help the mafia out.
Then BC attacks Dekes again for not voting Vezok.....why would you vote a cop on D1? Even if he is scum, there was no evidence at the time (or now) that he was in fact scum
The prevailing opinion at the time was that Boone sucks.
From Dekes point of view, as a clear town if someone starts a wagon on you with a bunch of bullshit, those who seem especially eager to hop on look far more scummy than the one who started it.
Were I Dekes, for example, i would have believed that Boone sucked, and found the speed with which the wagon reached L-2 very scummy.

Buddies up to Huck.

Ok moving along to me now:
Accuses me of trying to frame him with my post about the wagon order, when my post was actually correct (he was the last person to hop off the wagon at that point..I did miss HH hoping _on_ the wagon at that point, but that's not that relevant (also that's why I'd prefer a BC lynch to a HH lynch, because I get more a more sincere vibe from HH).
Moar buddying up to Huck
..Oh no chessid assumed the mafia have a QT. *panic*
Repeats his defense from all allegation as "I follow claims [whether obv fake or not because I'm scum lol]" The part in brackets was omitted by him, however.
"Vezok is a poor player sometimes. that is part of the reason why I followed the claim "headfirst."" makes no sense - if Vezok is a bad player, why would you immediately hop on his wagon?

"
Shut the Fuck up! You say that now because everything is unraveled already. Yea, so what you were the first person to suggest him being a lyncher. Great, more power to you. But because i didn't think of that, it makes me scum? Just because you "saw" the plan, doesn't make it obvious to everyone else from the very beginning.
"
No, it's scumtastic because you didn't even stop to consider lyncher, you just tried to jump on a wagon on someone you knew to be town.

Oh and lol @ all the reasons he's voting me. Seriously. My vote is srzbizness now

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't really think you disagree? I meant vezok claiming lyncher - which would obviously remove the likelyhood of a dekes being lynched. If vezok hadn't claimed lyncher this back and forth would probably have gone on much longer, it was in scum's best interests to keep this charade going (under the assumption dekes is town)

If this was what you originally intended to indicate then you are correct I don’t disagree. I read the post I responded to as saying “It was in scum’s best interests to discredit Vezo”. My mistake.

Woops, obviously Claire's not a fakeclaim if it says so in Vezok's role pm, complete brain fart on my part. I meant I don't think Claire's gonna be scum in this game, it requires such a bastardisation of all flavour.

Let’s discuss this. Who do you think are reliable characters to be scum in Season 1? If Ethan Rom is a lyncher (which we likely think he is based on the facts and Vezo’s admission) I don’t see any way for there to be a scum-team of that consists of humans (ie not the Polar bear and Monster) without some bastardization of flavor.

Course Dram's vote's scummy because his reason for voting us is 100% garbage. Explain why it's scummy dram, or are you just posturing?

Um you stated Claire was a fake-claim after Vezo admitted that Dekes as Claire was his lynch target. That’s not garbage. You since retracted your error but I don’t see how it is overtly scummy to think you made a slip there.

Vezok, could you explain to me why you're speculating about everyone's rolename?
It's escaping me.

He’s living up to his VI status and quite frankly can do what he wants because people are going to ignore him now that they have a mostly confirmed opinion that he is 3rd party.

@Dramonic

– You haven’t commented on my views on HH and BC. Please share your thoughts and / or criticisms.

Chesskid assumes that the mafia have a QT - Kind of a scummy post

Ummm Mafia QTs are pretty much standard operating procedure. If you are saying it’s scummy that he thinks they have one that’s craptastic. If not please elaborate on why it’s ‘kind of scummy’.

If I were more stubborn for an easy mislynch, then I NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN OFF OF THE FUCKING WAGON!

And yet you only got off the wagon after Dekes called you out as voting in a scummy manner. And it wasn't like a sudden burst of votes followed yours. You voted Dekes to L-2. Dekes calls you on it. Chesskid unvotes Dekes and then you do stating that you are slowing down the wagon. Too late, Chesskid had already accomplished that. You don’t get Town cred for ‘getting off the bad wagon’ when you did it in response to being accused of being opportunistic.

Shut the Fuck up! You say that now because everything is unraveled already. Yea, so what you were the first person to suggest him being a lyncher. Great, more power to you. But because i didn't think of that, it makes me scum? Just because you "saw" the plan, doesn't make it obvious to everyone else from the very beginning.

I said it in my very first content post. It makes you likely scum because you jumped on the Dekes bandwagon and have tried to explain it away as ‘trusting the PR’. You can say you just missed it (the obv-nature of Vezo being a lyncher) but I’m not required to exactly believe that. Scum have motivation to lie when they are caught, don’t they? And note I have yet to say you are 100% scum. I say there is 1 scum in you, Hacker or Longing. Your responses are what I'm going to use to narrow down the scum.

Instead of calling it all WIFOM, why don't you go read my other games? You'll see how true it is.

It’s pointless. Simply by stating your understanding of how you play as scum makes any Town meta on you useless. Because your self-awareness means you can manipulate your behaviour in this game to match Town meta to your heart’s content.

Awesome, the Remainder of my iso is filled with pointless set up speculation. LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH I posted very early on in the day about some set up speculation and roles and let it go after a few responses. But you come back and bring it up later in the day... why? YOU QUESTION ME ON IT. YOU RESPOND TO IT. AND NOW YOU SAY THAT ALL I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS SET UP SPECULATION. GOOD FUCKING JOB!!!

!!!!

How nice of you to –

1. Ignore the other elements I mentioned (that it also includes self-defense and fake-claim related fluff) when strawmanning the argument.
2. Me questioning you on your pointless set-up speculation doesn’t mean it isn’t POINTELESS SET-UP SPECULATION. See that? I can post in all caps also.

When you can’t defend your posts I understand straw-manning and CAPS LAWK stupidity is all you have. Don't feel bad. If you are indeed caught scum I've seen worse flailing.

I like it how Dekes and Magna are just riding eachothers coat-tails.

Look – a statement that attempts to say I’m scummy but doesn’t actually do so because it would be laughed off the block. Care to elaborate on how I’m riding Dekes coat-tails? I know scum don’t like it when Town gets handed easy Town reads. It makes finding Scum that much easier.

How about putting together a case besides 'these guys didn't think Vezok was a lyncher'?

I see – the ‘Head in the Sand’ defense. I have to say that your response is more scum-tastic than BC’s. At least he is trying. You get caught with your hand in the cookie jar and your only defense is “You have no case”.

@Everyone not BC or HH

– Which of the two do you find more likely scum?

[chesskid3]

yay crosspost

[MagnaofIllusion]

Follow-up post –

@Ademisk -

In reviewing your ISO I notice the following things –

1. Not a single vote.
2. Significant discussion about Policy lynching and methods by which Vezo’s now proven fake-claim could be tested.
3. Disagreements with FSHydra and Chesskid without any indications that their behaviour is significantly scummy.

Please provide your top three scum suspects with a short (but multi-sentence) reason why they are scummy. And accompany that with a vote for your Top suspect. We are well out of RVS and there is no Pro-Town reason not to be voting for who you think is scum.

@jenniwren

- In review of your ISO I see a similar lack of voting. I do see more developed suspicions. Why are you not voting for your top suspect (which based on your last post looks like TheLonging)?

Also, what are your thoughts on HH and BC?

@jason

– Why did you FOS FSHydra and then not vote him when you two posts later realize you still had a RVS vote? Unvoting while not committing to your Top suspect troubles me.

[chesskid3]

@ Mod

Can we get a votecount?

Also, I am 20% of the posts in this thread. Muahahahahah

[chesskid3]

where is everyone? :/

[Ademisk]

@MoI: I'm the type of person who finds every little thing thats out of the ordinary suspicious. As such, I tend not to cast my vote too eagerly to counterbalance that, which makes me seem afraid to vote. Don't worry, when I feel I have a case that warrants a vote, I'll cast it. And while its a good thing that you are able to keep up with all players, you should be more careful because my discussion of testing methods was before Vezok's final claim, and my 'disagreements' with chess and FaraSera was nothing more than a question about how to proceed.

I'll go with my gut and say that Vezok looks the scummiest to me. Basically, I don't trust his series of claims, as they were too convenient and opportunistic. The day-cop role by itself isn't that suspicious, but combined with his sudden change of heart it is, as you shall see:

I have role related information to want dekes to claim name. It's obvious I won't claim what it is.

He states that he knows his role, but won't claim it just yet.

I'm Boone Carlyle.
I am going to out him without a claim.
Dekes is Ethan Rom. He probably has a fake claim. Let's wait to see what he tells us.

He cracks two hours later. He didn't even give Dekes a chance to post in that time period. Sounds like scum, anxious to get the wagon started on Dekes while he was away, which worked out pretty well.

After MoI brings up the possibility of a lyncher (post 97), Vezok goes underground. He makes only garbage posts until this comment:

Wtf is with this lyncher speculation. You are letting scum go away.

Which to me looks like he is trying to distance himself from the possibility.

But after FaraSera offers him a deal (and dramonic offers his support a bit later), Vezok eagerly jumps on that. I think he dropped his first claim because of the ongoing discussion on how to test his role, as there was no other way for him not to be found out after his claim failed than by settling for this bad, but not scummy, role.

Additionally, if he really is a lyncher, he had no reason to admit it. If he kept pretending to be a cop, then he should have known that we would kill Dekes before him if we ever took that route. Changing his claim only shows that he needed an escape.

So fara is right.
I thought about claiming when I went to bed.
TL is scum because he has a post on page 6(will quote it in a moment where he says the lyncher speculation is bad and he wants dekes lynched. He is probably scum knowing that dekes is town and wants him dead.
Now I caught you scum and I really want to win this game.

Dekes is Claire alright. I am Ethan and I have the fake claim Boone. And yes I am a lyncher.

Even if you wouldn't believe me as a name cop on day 1 I had the masterful plan of guessing chesskid's role as Hurley.
And yes I am a lyncher.
The scums are probably infiltrated in your groups and don't need fake claims. Here I helped you as much as I could.

The admission itself was garbled and incomprehensible. There is an accusation on TL, which, while although it may be sound, is clearly thrown in there to soften our view of his change of heart so we can get on with helping him win.

So if you won''t at least try to help me win I will do unpleasent things.

See. There is the problem.
Why would I help town if town doesn't want to help me?

He then insists on town helping him achieve his goal despite that being a very anti-town thing to do given that the current consensus is that Dekes is a townie.

Vote farasera

I won't change my vote.
He is either scum or Jack.

He devised a plan to make me claim to be sure I am not a Pr.He wanted to appear pro town. He is a very smart scum.

Abandoning his previous case on TL, he now tries to pretend like he's helping by calling FaraSera scum. By themselves this and the TL accusation during his role change woulnd't have been that significant, but well, this is shedding light on his true intentions. Why try to lynch someone who you have no purpose lynching, even if you are 3rd party?

Although it was his (poor) decision to out himself, he is either trying to appear to give reason for his FaraSera case or is further trying to soften his role switch.

Even if by some chance he is a lyncher, he has openly expressed multiple times his intent to get in our way. If he is a lyncher, and given his intent on playing anti-town if he doesn't get his way, the scum will most likely keep him alive. In the end it will be up to us to deal with him anyway. Until I find a scummier person, I say now rather than later.

Vote: Vezok

And for MoI: My other suspicion is on BC. Frankly, I have more suspicion on him than on Vezok by his posts compared to Vezoks, but Vezoks actions seem more significant to me. Since you have most of the case written up in your posts, here are a few of my favorite quotes:

I feel that if everyone name claimed only then that would make it harder for others to fake claim later. just my opinion =/

Fake claims are essential for themed games from my experience elsewhere, so this might be a bit biased. This is clear anti-town in that context.

Whatever you say dekes. I follow a claim of you being ethan which makes sense as a scum role what else was i supposed to do, ignore it? You may call me opportunistic but it was no way opportunistic. I am, believe it or not rather good at keeping track of thresholds and if someone were to come in and vote quickly I would have unvoted to let the day evolve so that you had time to claim or rebuttal. No doubt I do agree that occasionally the third or fourth vote on a player can be opportunistic. However scum-bloodcovenent would blindly jump on a wagon as the late voter with no reasoning. As you may ask what my reasoning is... well.... it's that there was a claim that your role was of an "other." And they are bad in season 1. Therefore i felt confident in you as a lynch. Note that it doesn't make sense for Scum Vezo to so early give off a fake claim though. Because i would assume he knows that if you flip town, he will be ultimately hung tomorrow. -One of the reasons why I followed him.

Anyways. I'll stall the wagon for now.

Unvote:
Vote: Ademisk

scum.

For his attempted distraction by giving us an example on how he 'would' have acted if he were scum. WIFOM, basically.

Vezok is a poor player sometimes. that is part of the reason why I followed the claim "headfirst."

Does not compute. Poor wording maybe, but still.


And MoI, just because Vezok comes off as VI does not mean we should give him a free pass on all he says and does. Sure we may have to judge him by a different set of standards, but that doesn't mean he gets a free ride to the endgame.

[chesskid3]

Not in favor of wasting a lynch on a lyncher. Just vig him tonight, problem solved.

[xRECKONERx]

BloodCovenent (4): Dekes, MagnaofIllusion, chesskid3, Faraseradayaphim
jenniwren (1): jasonT1981
Faraseradayaphim (1): vezokpiraka
chesskid3 (1): BloodCovenent
vezokpiraka (1): Ademisk

Not voting (4): jenniwren, HackerHuck, TheLonging, dramonic

12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Ademisk]

Thats assuming he is a lyncher, chesskid.

[chesskid3]

Well if he gets vigged he's dead either way. If there is a vig, our problem will be solved tomorrow, so why waste the lynch?

[Ademisk]

Assuming there is a vig and that he decides to 'waste' his shot on Vezok. You seem sure there is a vig. Why is that?

[chesskid3]

............

[chesskid3]

Did you really just do what I think you just did?

[chesskid3]

I can do it right back to you...You said 'his shot' WHAT MAKES YOU ASSUME THE VIG ONLY HAS ONE SHOT?

[Ademisk]

1 shot per night, yes. What is your point?

[chesskid3]

Stop speculating on town prs. Now.

[Ademisk]

I believe that Vezo is a lyncher now. Since his threats, would it be a good idea to have a vig shoot his ass if there is one?

Well if he gets vigged he's dead either way. If there is a vig, our problem will be solved tomorrow, so why waste the lynch?

You're the one going on about how you'd like him to get vigged, not me. Sounds to me like you're the one speculating. And I'm calling you on it; why do you think there is a vig?

[chesskid3]

Ever hear of Pandora's box? Lets leave it at if there's a vig shoot him lol

[HackerHuck]

If he's town, then why waste a vig on him? The extra town body prolongs the day, so I don't know why we'd be in a rush to lynch him if you believe he's really a lyncher.

@Ademisk, do you think Vezok just got lucky in that the flavour matches up - Ethan stalking Claire? I'd also like to know why you think accusing someone of being a vig would help the town.

[chesskid3]

HH, i'm confused. Lyncher is not town, he basically admitted 3rd party.

[chesskid3]

So vigging lynchers is good, no?