/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[farside22]

1 quick peak into Poro's recent posting on the site.
This alone makes me want to vote him as scum. He's posting fine in other games and active in comparison to this game.
I still want to go look at the analysis of him as scum vs town consider this an

FOS: Porochaz

[Incognito]

Vote Count #2 of Day 3

Zajnet (2) <-~ Jack, MagnaofIllusion
Sando (3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora, Sotty7
Porochaz (1) <-~ Sando

Not voting (3) <-~ Erg0, farside22, Zajnet

9 living; 5 will do it.

Deadline:

Tuesday, September 14th at 11 A.M. EST

[Jack]

I love how everyone is just like 'sando? ...yeah he's scum' once they look at him closely.

[Zajnet]

I am stumped by my semblance of a reread. Nobody really jumps out to me as scum. Sando, Poro, and Jack all exhibit elements of scumminess, but nothing blatantly a scum-tell. I need to reread looking specifically for connections to Jason now, but a preliminary look over MOI's analysis seems to show that Sando is the scummiest because of voting patterns. However, I am not comfortable enough in that to vote for anyone, especially with Sando at L-2.

[farside22]

I love how everyone is just like 'sando? ...yeah he's scum' once they look at him closely.

Based on some of my reads throughout this game I have a scum list, a town list and an inbetween not sure list.

Weren't you the one defending Jason all day yesterday.
Quick why is Zajant more scummier then Sando, Jack?

[Porochaz]

I just read Sando in this game and he is pretty much looking like lazy scum.
He attacked mostly Jack on day 1 with little comment towards anyone else and then votes for charlie.
Today he has gone back to day 2 more Jack is scum then votes for Volkan in what equates to an OMGUS vote
Today is now Porochaz who he said next to nothing about to what again equates to OMGUS vote.
He has done little to no scum hunting sticking with Jack and only attacking anyone who says things against him.

I looked into his past games of recent where boy all I found was him as scum and he comes off as rude, he scum hunts but attacks people pretty fiercely.

example:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 34&start=0

@Sando: Do you have an link to a game you were town that is not currently still ongoing?

I would also say compared to the link above Sando is close to actively lurking. I notice he's not in any other game and seems to be keeping a low profile here.

Rude? I don't think I was rude at all in that game maybe when attacking Al but I feel offended by that.

In regards to lurking, or lurking within this game, Im now past the point of caring to be honest, vote for me, or don't. Im not going to defend myself against something which is true in that Im playing this game in the background to some of the other games, its a shame because if you look at the player list for all the games Im playing, I actually like this one the best overall. Im getting into this game as much as I can but it's not happening at the moment, but be sure as soon as I find a hook I'll be onto it with my same "fierceness" as in my other games.

[Jack]

I love how everyone is just like 'sando? ...yeah he's scum' once they look at him closely.

Based on some of my reads throughout this game I have a scum list, a town list and an inbetween not sure list.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do love it. You kind of don't notice him but when you look back it's obvious.

Weren't you the one defending Jason all day yesterday.

No also see above.

Quick why is Zajant more scummier then Sando, Jack?

He isn't, sando is the lynch for today see my posts last page, I have my own reasons for not voting yet.

[Porochaz]

LA for a week or so

[Sando]

1 quick peak into Poro's recent posting on the site.
This alone makes me want to vote him as scum. He's posting fine in other games and active in comparison to this game.
I still want to go look at the analysis of him as scum vs town consider this an

FOS: Porochaz

This is very similar to what he was doing in our last scum game.

BTW Farside, when have I played scum against you? Link to what non-ongoing game? One where I was what? Why is me deliberately not joining another game a sign that I'm actively lurking? Surely that's an indicator that I know I can't dedicate a lot of time to mafia? And I'm only rude when people are morons, noone is being a moron, I'm a legitimate target for today, I've merely outlined why Poro is likely scum, but that's based on me knowing I'm town. In all likelihood that will only count for something after I'm lynched.

Also, I basically deliberately actively lurked in that game Farside, I'm not here, I said that in my last post.

But hey, I did completely ignore Jason, wasn't deliberate, but I don't expect you to believe it. But watch Poro not engage with my posts against him now that he's got the ball rolling on my wagon.

Jack, you seem to spend your entire time saying 'Zajnet is DEFINITELY SCUM, but let's lynch this other guy...'.

[Porochaz]

1 quick peak into Poro's recent posting on the site.
This alone makes me want to vote him as scum. He's posting fine in other games and active in comparison to this game.
I still want to go look at the analysis of him as scum vs town consider this an

FOS: Porochaz

This is very similar to what he was doing in our last scum game.

Woah, no it's not. I was active in our game. Blatant misrep. Its the link farside posted. If anyone doesn't believe me go check it out.

But watch Poro not engage with my posts against him now that he's got the ball rolling on my wagon.

What do you want me to answer to? Obviously Ive stated that Im not going to answer to lurking because I have to a degree. I also think you were harsh in your assessment of that particular point. However, if you have any other points I will answer them.

Also @farside

I just read Sando in this game and he is pretty much looking like lazy scum.
He attacked mostly Jack on day 1 with little comment towards anyone else and then votes for charlie.
Today he has gone back to day 2 more Jack is scum then votes for Volkan in what equates to an OMGUS vote
Today is now Porochaz who he said next to nothing about to what again equates to OMGUS vote.
He has done little to no scum hunting sticking with Jack and only attacking anyone who says things against him.

I looked into his past games of recent where boy all I found was him as scum and he comes off as rude, he scum hunts but attacks people pretty fiercely.

example:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 34&start=0
snip

Rude? I don't think I was rude at all in that game maybe when attacking Al but I feel offended by that.

snip

I realise you weren't talking about me, I've had a busy day and Im exausted, so Im not reading properly.

[farside22]

@sando this was the game we were in together where you were scum.

I'm not going to have more time to analysis tonight. I got a crap load of packing, organizing and family stuff to do before I leave tomorrow.

@Jack: Sorry for some reason I thought you were still voting Zajant
@Porochaz: your next in my analysis read
Still need to look at Zaj and Jack.
Locke where are you locke?

[Locke Lamora]

Hi Farside. How are things?

Zajnet: are you serious? Really? Sando doesn't mention the lynch target

at all

on D2. That's a lynch target who turned out to be scum. It's nice of you to confirm you're Jason's other scumbuddy, though.

Sando: you might be less happy to hammer a partner if your buddy Zajnet had just bussed him. Your willingness to hammer a buddy is pretty much null here, as you knew we'd seen you attempt to do it very recently. Granted, it wasn't actually your buddy, but you didn't know that at the time. I notice neither of your buddies were on the wagon then.

[Sando]

That's a pretty odd game to look at for scum-play Farside, as I said multiple times throughout that game, scum actually want to scumhunt properly, and I was actually trying to scumhunt that game as scum. Also, very weird/bad game in terms of replacements and activity.

This is a game with me as scum, Farside and Poro were both town: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13699, read the scumchat if you want, I specifically don't avoid talking about my partner(s) as scum. This is probably one of the more normal/active games of me as scum.

So Locke, you're actually basing an argument for me being scum on a 3rd person being scum, a 3rd person you don't know is scum? It's only null to you if Zaj is scum... Yet you want to lynch me first? You're as bad as Poro and Jack, 'Hey Zaj is DEFINITELY scum, but let's lynch this other guy first'.

Locke/Poro/Jack, questions for you:
Am I more/less/null scummy if Zaj is scum?
Am I more/less/null scummy if Zaj is town?
Is Zaj more/less/null scummy if I am scum?
Is Zaj more/less/null scummy if I am town?

[Locke Lamora]

My argument's not based on that at all. I'm just saying, your 'I'd clearly hammer Jason if I was scum with him' argument is not relevant until we have the complete context of the lynch. The part I'm saying is null has nothing to do with Zaj being scum; it's to do with your knowledge that we were both aware you thought you were hammering your buddy in 984. As for your questions, neither of you has many links to the other, which would certainly reinforce my scum read on you either way. You've already admitted that you avoided targeting players you thought would be potential lynch targets in the future in 984, and your lack of focus on Zaj certainly matches the behaviour I saw towards your scumbuddies previously too. In short, my read is that when scum-Sando ignores a player, he's either avoiding clearing them later when he flips scum, or he's their buddy. If you'd actually bothered to acknowledge Zaj or Jason's scumminess in this game and tried to make a case on them, that would have given you some town points. Zaj doesn't have much links to anyone and has really said very little in the way of analysis, so I'm going to go with null on his.

[Sando]

You're choosing to completely ignore the REASON for ignoring my buddies in 984, which was that I was going to be the obvious target for the day. This was not the case in this game yesterday.

So null either way, yet Zaj has confirmed as scum because he's buddied with me?

Zajnet: are you serious? Really? Sando doesn't mention the lynch target at all on D2. That's a lynch target who turned out to be scum. It's nice of you to confirm you're Jason's other scumbuddy, though.

Contradict yourself much?

[Locke Lamora]

Zajnet's been on my scumlist all game. That's just another example of him yet again failing to take a firm stance. In case you couldn't guess, I am exaggerating there.

Incidentally, I just skimmed through your contributions in Karma, and I really don't see you talking about your buddies that much. You keep BV on your suspects list D1 despite the fact that I think your only point against him is agreeing with something someone else said, instead focusing on saying the people discouraging the wagon are scum trying to derail it. You make one 'high and mighty' accusation against Javert, who I notice tells you it's not a good idea to bus in a large game at that stage, from which point there is little else apart from answering some questions, and you don't provide an opinion on Faraday either way. Not done much to convince me you behave differently towards your scumbuddies than I think you do.

[Sando]

Yeah no s***, I was scum and tried to derail my buddies wagon and push a counter-wagon, I consistently maintained a stance on him and eventually was on BVs lynch. If you honestly don't see any difference between that game and this one... By my count I mentioned BV 8 times on D1 when he was lynched, and voted for him, and actively attacked people who tried to derail his wagon. And yet you want to claim that no mention at all of 'my buddy' in this game is the same thing?

Is this you exaggerating again?

[Locke Lamora]

You mention BV, but mostly in the context of others trying to derail his wagon. You're trying to make them look scummy, not him. As far as I can see, your points against BV are thus:
1. He accuses someone of role-fishing, which scum are often the first to do.
2. You agree with Plum's point that he treats Espeonage as town.

That's it. If you can tell me if there's more, but that's about all I can see. Sure, it's more of an attack than you made on Jason, but not much. So, contrary to the '8 times' you mentioned BV's name, I find two points against him, no questions and no actual interaction with BV.

In any case, perhaps we should talk about this game. Can you explain to me why you ignored Jason yesterday?

[Sando]

Yes, you're quite right, I didn't tunnel down my scum-partner... That clearly makes me scum here...

I didn't feel the need to contribute anything to the Jason wagon, my feel on him wasn't particularly solid, it built to a near-lynch quite quickly, and I didn't have a strong enough feel to push it over the line. I always feel that game-days tend to be too focused on one player, so I tend to deliberately look at someone else unless my read on the person is exceptionally strong or there's another reason like deadline approaching.

I'm happy to accept that my not commenting on Jason is seen as scummy, that's fine. I just want people to realise some of the stupid arguments being brought up as soon as you're remotely questioned, as well as what I feel is a fairly opportunistic attack straight out in the day, almost as if it was agreed overnight that 'hey, that Sando guy didn't comment on the Jason wagon, reckon we can get an easy mislynch there'.

You want to say that I'm scummy for ignoring the scum, and also want to say that my play is similar to a game where I specifically did not ignore my partner, in fact voted for him and consistently placed him as one of my biggest suspects...

Your argument is conflicted, and you're now trying to pull it back to this game now that you've been caught out.

[Locke Lamora]

You were the one who brought up Karma. I was using 984 as my original basis for how you approach your scumbuddies. I said I read it and found that you didn't have a whole lot of interaction with your scumbuddies there either. The fact remains that even if you think you had loads of interaction with BV (and I don't think two lines against him and then inclusion on a scumlist is a lot) you had little with Javert and virtually none with Faraday. Anyone who's dubious of my line of attack should read 984 and Karma Mafia and draw their own conclusions about how you interact with your buddies.

Do you think I'm one of Jason's buddies?

Also, I was specifically curious about this:

What about Jason Sando? He also found it "interesting"

How'd you miss that one?

[Sando]

Where did I say that I missed Jason or comments about him? It's not like I forgot that he was around, or didn't notice that he was getting wagonned. I felt no need to contribute to that line of reasoning and wasn't getting a strong read, and felt that I could be best served looking at other things.

Do I think you're Jason's partner? Well I definitely think 1 of you and Poro is scum, not entirely sure which. Poro is worse in isolation I feel, you definitely get partner-points though for Jason having nominated you as his protection. You and Poro aren't scum together though, happy with that read.

[Locke Lamora]

So your answer is that you acknowledged Sotty's comment but felt no need to respond to it? Just clarifying.

[Sando]

I can't remember my feelings on that comment in particular, or if I noticed it at the time, I certainly had no idea what you were talking about when you quoted it just now. It happened right around the time of Vollkan and his 'boilerplate' scumtell comment which got my attention and pissed me off.

But I certainly felt no compunction to address anything surrounding Jason, I didn't have a strong read and there were plenty of people going back and forth on it to force the issue, they did, got the claim and the hammer in the end.

I'm tending towards Locke being the scum out of Poro/Locke now, Locke is just reaching and reaching for an easy lynch here. I was happy to accept suspicion for lack of interaction with Jason, and I've copped that from a few people, fair enough, but Locke wants to push that to say that I literally haven't mentioned Jason or Zach all game, which isn't true.

People are attacking me for meta, Poro and Locke have attacked me for similarities between this and our last game, which I think is a bit BS, but nothing major. But Locke wants to turn every example of me as scum in a previous game into it showing I'm scum here. Read D1 (iso me, D1 is long) in Karma mafia and compare it to what I'm being accused of here, it's completely different, but Locke wants to twist it into another tell against me.

Locke is obviously really trying to sow up a lynch here, I think he's deliberately stretching a lot of things, I think that's scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Locke

VLA for ~24 hours from now.

[Locke Lamora]

I checked back in case I'd missed some obvious interaction between you and Zach/Jason and here's what I got:

Farside, does Jack get better later at least? Or do we have to put up with this the whole time?

Zach, you were listed as one of MOI's top suspect, yet you accuse him of only attacking 'lurkers'. So you're saying that you're a lurker?

That's the only time you mention the Zach/Jason slot while it was alive, either directly or to make a point against it. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong and there's more but I think I've represented your lack of interaction fairly here. Thanks for making me look back again, I have also noticed that you open this game with the same allegation against Jack that you made against your buddy BV in Karma, that the first to mention rolefishing is scum.

Finally, do you honestly think I need to reach for an easy lynch? If I was scum I could just sit back here. Jack has specifically stated that you're the lynch for today, Farside has said you look like 'lazy scum', Zajnet has tentatively admitted you look the scummiest and Magna's VC analysis conclusions features you as a suspect. Need I go on? I was trying to establish whether my scum read on you was accurate and you've convinced me that it is. I've said that your Karma play isn't as bad as your 984 play for ignoring buddies but there's still a substantial absence of attacks or interaction with them in the game,

even when you're bussing one of them

, and everyone here can go and see that for themselves.

[Incognito]

Bumping a vote count.