/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Rhinox]

Seraph is not the lynch for today. I've been going back and forth on this, but I don't think scum have to try that hard to get VV lynched. It'd be easier to get rid of the opposition to the VV lynch, and then grab it later when someone suggests that VV is way to scummy to let get anywhere near endgame and the policy lynch commences. I'd have expected scum in seraphs position to abandon the VV wagon today and get a wagon going on me for example a couple pages ago.

If we're going to lynch based on the "VV is town" assumption, spyrex is a much better lynch. He hasn't really been too assertive in pushing the lynch which tells me he wants it to happen but he doesn't want to lead the charge. He also would have been all over my wagon in a heartbeat had anyone decided to go that route, based on comments from yesterday and my opposition to the VV lynch. Spy actually hasn't been scumhunting much at all. He's made some suggestions especially during D1, but he's been unwilling to follow them up with votes. His vote was on VV yesterday until he switched to the other easy lynch in hoopla, and has done nothing but camp on his VV vote today. He strikes me as not wanting to stick his neck out and lead this game, and town-spy loves to lead IME.

Another option is to smoke out the scum who don't want to touch the VV situation with a 10ft pole. There's a few players that haven't done much in the way of discussing this particular situation at all. I'm thinking, zoraster, PZ, hell maybe even mith for that matter. mith led a lot of the discussion and provided a lot of analysis up til today, and suddenly seems to be waiting to see how this situation will play out.

I like the ooba wagon though. ooba would be a good lynch today. I don't see how VV801 is the magic post that makes VV scummier than zoraster for ooba. ooba is more likely to be scum pushing the vvtown lynch rather than seraph, and in the event that VV is town, I can see ooba's vote to be more likely bussing than spyrex, given

Far too many people seem to be playing the Vas-newbie\VI card to derail this wagon; Once you flip scum, that'll be a good place to start looking for your scumbuddies.

...and that ooba seemed to try to massage a reason to vote VV today when he could have been making the same arguments yesterday when "zoraster>VV"

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

I like the ooba wagon though. ooba would be a good lynch today. I don't see how VV801 is the magic post that makes VV scummier than zoraster for ooba. ooba is more likely to be scum pushing the vvtown lynch rather than seraph, and in the event that VV is

town

scum

, I can see ooba's vote to be more likely bussing than spyrex, given

Its past my bedtime

[VasudeVa]

I'm not lying ooba. I was lazy early that game until people started voting for me. Then I went mad-dog at anyone who tried to get me lynched. HEY DOESN'T THIS LOOK FAMILIAR!?

In fact, I can remember a handful of games wherein some of you may have seen that multiple times. (*cough* SPYREX *cough*). As town, I go mad-dog to anyone who dare attempt to get me lynched. At that game, I was too new actually know anything about hunting scum(it was my first Town game, IIRC. And I think I just resulted to meta because I knew jack shit about scumtells).

Also, wow. You are still pushing a meta case 40 pages in?

[Herodotus]

Sorry for being unavailable for a while. I hope to have some time soon to read and post.
I was getting a minor town vibe from Vas starting toward the end of day 1, though I wanted more information from him because it's only based on a gut evaluation of his reactions to seraphim.
I've skimmed the past couple pages. No one has looked very scummy to me during day 2, except possibly seraphim if I look at his posts in a particular way (which I imagine is probably what SK did,) or DGB a little.
I have no idea why some people think PZ is town. My read on him is neutral at best.

[Elmo]

Vas: Also, please answer my questions?

from #986.

I'm not lying ooba. I was lazy early that game until people started voting for me. Then I went mad-dog at anyone who tried to get me lynched. HEY DOESN'T THIS LOOK FAMILIAR!?

So why haven't you posted anything like the post ooba quoted hitherto?

[Papa Zito]

On the flipside:

Zito can you explain for me like Elli in babysteps because I'm missing it.

Yeah, I was trying to do this with Vas but it's not working out so well.

So we know from last night's flips that we have a vig.

If you review ooba's Day 0 you'll see that he advocated giving the scum both a rolecop and a roleblocker. Now knowing that we have a vig, it becomes more obvious that what ooba was trying to do. Naturally a rolecop (especially a

day

rolecop) is a great way to find that lurking pesky vig. But ooba's second choice is what's especially damning here.

Let's step back and review the potential town PRs:

- Weak Doctor
- Jailkeeper
- Tracker
- Hider
- Vigilante

What's interesting about this list is that the only one who makes a public, confirmable action is... the vig. What, then, would happen if the roleblocker correctly chose to block the vigilante? Why, the scum would then know that they had found the vig.

In other words, rolecop + roleblocker + nightkill gives the scum three chances per day/night cycle to find the hidden vigilante, making it virtually impossible for the vig to stay alive and safely hidden. And ooba was the one who advocated for this.

[VasudeVa]

So why haven't you posted anything like the post ooba quoted hitherto?

I don't necessarily believe in meta anymore. I mean, they do work somtimes but back then I was in 2 games. Nowadays, I'm in like, 7 games. I don't think I can do anything like that anymore(especially now that I'm busier).

I think I have explained my suspicions of ooba throughout my posts. What is unclear?

[Kmd4390]

Ekim, nothing changed. I could see ooba bussing.

Guys, sorry to do this, but I have to make a separate post for each page I read. Phone post...

[VasudeVa]

By lynchbait, you mean you play in a way that can easily be painted as suspicious by scum, but would not

actually

be thought suspicious by town? If that's true, why would town ever agree with scum attacking you - how does that work?

Not necessarily. True, Town would attack me too at some point. But I believe that Town is more likelier to be openminded, and not dense to evidence/explanations simply because: There are fewer scum than Town, they have a higher chance of mislynching, therefore they are more likely to keep a broad point of view. Herod is a good example of what I'd expect of a good Townie who'd react to lynchbait: Ask questions, then when evidence comes up just stop.

Totally unlike Seraphim here. He's either a retarded town tunneller or bad scum trying to suck up. Leaning towards bad scum tunneler caught red handed. Seraphim looks like he's just trying to suck up now, see how he's treating everyone differently?

[Kmd4390]

Sera is so town.

[Kmd4390]

ubvote, vote vas

Too scummy to ignore. And not sure I buy zito's "find the vig" case on ooba.

[DrippingGoofball]

Sera is so town.

From my point of view, I've done exactly what he's doing... when I was scum. So your mileage may vary.

[Kmd4390]

Self-meta to call another player scum? Didn't you pass that phase years ago?

[DrippingGoofball]

Self-meta to call another player scum?

Haha, I was thinking more along the lines of "projection" but your diagnostic is funnier. Now that you mention it, 100% of my reads are self-meta projections...

[Rhinox]

In other words, rolecop + roleblocker + nightkill gives the scum three chances per day/night cycle to find the hidden vigilante, making it virtually impossible for the vig to stay alive and safely hidden. And ooba was the one who advocated for this.

At first, I wasn't buying this, but scum also gave us a tracker as well, which can be another avenue to identify the vig. Its certainly some suggestive circumstantial evidence, but I don't think its THE reason to lynch ooba today.

[Patrick]

Votecount

ekiM (1) -- Ellibereth
VasudeVa (4) -- Seraphim, ooba, SpyreX, Kmd4390
ooba (4) -- Papa Zito, Plumegranate, Rhinox, ekiM
DrippingGoofball (2) -- mith, Elmo
Seraphim (3) -- SaintKerrigan, DrippingGoofball, VasudeVa

Not voting: Zorblag, Herodotus, zoraster
17 alive, 9 to lynch.

Deadline: 11th of September, 6 am GMT.

[Seraphim]

Not necessarily. True, Town would attack me too at some point. But I believe that Town is more likelier to be openminded, and not dense to evidence/explanations simply because:

There are fewer scum than Town, they have a higher chance of mislynching, therefore they are more likely to keep a broad point of view.

Herod is a good example of what I'd expect of a good Townie who'd react to lynchbait: Ask questions, then when evidence comes up just stop.

Lynchbait =/= town BTW. Now it even looks like you're repeating the same "I'm too scummy to scum!" spiel.

Also, the bolded is wrong. You seem to be indicating that scum are more likely to tunnel than town and that's just incorrect. Scum have equal opportunity to tunnel or "fish with a net", so to speak. Scum have one base goal and that's to survive and if that means tunneling or attacking multiple players, they will do whatever is required to survive.

Totally unlike Seraphim here. He's either a retarded town tunneller or bad scum trying to suck up. Leaning towards bad scum tunneler caught red handed. Seraphim looks like he's just trying to suck up now, see how he's treating everyone differently?

I love the ad hominem. Yep, calling your attacker "retarded" is definitely a good idea. Mind showing us some examples of "sucking up" rather than postulating meaningless attacks with any backing "evidence"?

[Seraphim]

In other words, rolecop + roleblocker + nightkill gives the scum three chances per day/night cycle to find the hidden vigilante, making it virtually impossible for the vig to stay alive and safely hidden. And ooba was the one who advocated for this.

At first, I wasn't buying this, but scum also gave us a tracker as well, which can be another avenue to identify the vig. Its certainly some suggestive circumstantial evidence, but I don't think its THE reason to lynch ooba today.

Out of curiosity, what is THE reason to lynch ooba? It seems a wagon built on wagoning for wagoning's sake.

[Herodotus]

Just because you're voting a player does NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT THE MILLIONTH POWER MEAN YOU ARE SCUMHUNTING.

Yes. It does. Why? BECAUSE I SAY SO. MUHAHAHHAHAHAHAH.

Serious answer: Yes I am.

Serious-er answer: No really, I am.

Assertions aren't always helpful.

1. false case on VV(not proven)
2. Theory attack????(I don't understand why this point is named so, ties in with 1, not proven)
3. Over-clarification(hardly scummy)
4. Neutral reaction to Hoopla's gambit(spin)

You cannot prove that shit. These are INTERPRETATIONS. How hard is it for you to understand that INTERPRETATIONS are hardly ever the same level as proof? You do your fair share of interpretations and this 'defense' you put up is terrible.

Your hypocrisy pains me. One could say that your self-defense is all INTERPRETATIONS which are not the same level as proof.

I'm thinking I could tolerate a Vas lynch, though he's not more likely than others to be scum.
I don't like that he's said multiple times that he doesn't want to be in this game, apparently without considering that he has the option to request replacement. A lynch would give him the out he claims to want.
And he's been getting in the way.

first point, second example:
VasudeVa's main point against my argument during that point in the game was that I had made a "lazy bandwagoning case" rather than actually addressing the points I had made against him. I still maintain that that post is an appeal to emotion, or perhaps more accurately "ad hominem". Let's take a look at the post again:

Yawn at the OMGUS accusation. Does anyone ever believe that scum are more likely to do that? Lazy, lazy~

If we break down this post, he first tries to discredit the argument by asserting the following: "Scum are not more likely to make an OMGUS vote than town." This is also a strawman for the real argument, which is that he is discrediting my argument by calling it lazy rather than going after the points themselves. By continuing to push that I am being "lazy"(note the use of the word "yawn"), he doesn't actually have to answer any of my points because the case is "lazy" and therefore not a case at all and not worth answering. This IS appeal to emotion. Rather than answer the points or prove they are unsubstantial, he strawmans a few key points and says the case is lazy, probably made by lazy scum, therefore I don't need to answer the points because I don't need to answer no posts by no scum.

Do you make your cases to be answered by the person against whom they are composed, or to convince others? Any strawman/AtE/dismissiveness on his part isn't going to prevent others from agreeing with you.

I think you're being coached to play like this because it will make it difficult for you to be lynched so long as they continue to play the too scummy to be scum card. I postulate that scum may even be using you to draw the vig with your play.

WHAAAAAAAT? EXPLAIN NOW PLZ.

Whoops. Looks like there was a giant hole in my logic there, lol. I'm pretty sure there was more to that point so I'll expand on that.

It's a win-win situation for scum. Have VV act in a VI-ish manner. Players dismiss him as VI. He isn't a strong player anyway, so if he comes under heavy scrutiny, they can bus him easily. Also, if there's a lot of noise about VV in the thread, that might help overshadow the other scum in the topic and make VV a more likely vig target.

It's incredible speculation and there's no real basis behind it besides my speculation.

The next logical step is to guess that the other scum might be bussing him. I don't understand why people are ruling that out between the two of you, but it's also much too early to say it's the case.

I don't like Seraphim 975. It looks like Seraphim decided it's only worth trying to figure out that someone is town if the other person cooperates. It could be frustration, or scumminess.

And then he OMGUS'd ooba a while back, a wagon I don't buy.

Seems like a chainsaw to me! A soft one, maybe with kittens.

That's not what chainsaw means. A chainsaw defense would be if he said ooba was town

because

you voted/attacked him, but that's not what he said.

@Papa Zito:
Post 1005: serious? (y/n)

@Rhinox:
Post 1014: serious? (y/n)

Now that you mention it, 100% of my reads are self-meta projections...

I love this line.

[Seraphim]

Do you make your cases to be answered by the person against whom they are composed, or to convince others? Any strawman/AtE/dismissiveness on his part isn't going to prevent others from agreeing with you.

Both.

[VasudeVa]

Sure, here's evidence(of you sucking up):

Yes, I understand that and I regret putting it in my post. It is incredible stretching.

Foot + mouth.

"Oh, I'm sorry I'm stupid Plum! Please don't vote me! I'll totally satisfy your foot fetish(if you have it)"

lol and here come the votes. Fuck me I was having fun with this game too.

"Oh no, votes! Please don't, I'm having fun!

I certainly agree that what Plumpom pointed out was incredible reaching but I would like to think that the rest of my case was formed on legitimate points.

"Please ignore my scummy arguments! Just check out my earlier attacks! And please totally don't use those against me!"

I can completely understand that but surely you can understand my frustration. I'm really just trying to get some sort of defense out of him besides attacks calling my case crap. If you evaluate his play from a purely reactionary standpoint(which VV claims is his best play), VV seems to be more interested in attacking his attackers rather than actually proving why my case "sucks" and then using previously mentioned "case suckage" to launch an attack.

"Oh, Elmo! I sooo frustrated! I was just evaluating his play but then he started going mad-dog on me! Please vote for him!"

@Herod: I'm just making sure whoever attacks me will pay for it. I don't do replacements. Replacements kill games.

[Seraphim]

It looks like Seraphim decided it's only worth trying to figure out that someone is town if the other person cooperates. It could be frustration, or scumminess.

I'm open to other people telling me why VasudeVa is town. No one has. If even the

player getting attacked

can't articulate reasons why he's not scum beyond attacking his attackers, though, why should I be convinced otherwise?

[Seraphim]

Sure, here's evidence(of you sucking up):

You cannot prove that shit. These are INTERPRETATIONS. How hard is it for you to understand that INTERPRETATIONS are hardly ever the same level as proof? You do your fair share of interpretations and this 'defense' you put up is terrible.

[VasudeVa]

Sure, here's evidence(of you sucking up):

You cannot prove that shit. These are INTERPRETATIONS. How hard is it for you to understand that INTERPRETATIONS are hardly ever the same level as proof? You do your fair share of interpretations and this 'defense' you put up is terrible.

Exactly. I put my interpretations out there. It's up to people if they are convinced by it or not.

It's not the same level as proof, it's out there to convince people that if they think that the evidence works/makes sense.

[DrippingGoofball]

Where's zoraster at?