/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[Incognito]

Vote Count #3 of Day 3

Zajnet (2) <-~ Jack, MagnaofIllusion
Sando (3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora, Sotty7
Locke Lamora (1) <-~ Sando

Not voting (3) <-~ Erg0, farside22, Zajnet

9 living; 5 will do it.

Deadline:

Tuesday, September 14th at 11 A.M. EST

[farside22]

Just a reminder I'm leaving today to go out of town and won't be back till Monday.
Please don't lynch anyone till I finish my read. I would like to have a final analysis on my top 4 scum suspects before the day ends.

[MagnaofIllusion]

QFT to farside’s 501

. Scum have shown they have no compunctions self-hammering if caught. Anyone who puts Sando at L-1 and facilitates the end of the day before

1. farside returns and posts said content, and
2. Erg0 finishes his ‘catch-up’ posts and gives some actual reads that can be used to assess his slot

they deserve to be roasted over hot coals. If you feel Sando is obv-scum FOS him at this point.

@MOD

– I’ll be V/LA from now til sometime Monday for regular weekend and holiday family duties.

First general responses to posts –

@Poro

– why is Locke not listed at all on your ‘Who is in the game’ post at 455?

In regards to lurking, or lurking within this game, Im now past the point of caring to be honest, vote for me, or don't. Im not going to defend myself against something which is true in that Im playing this game in the background to some of the other games, its a shame because if you look at the player list for all the games Im playing, I actually like this one the best overall. Im getting into this game as much as I can but it's not happening at the moment, but be sure as soon as I find a hook I'll be onto it with my same "fierceness" as in my other games.

Umm what? You aren’t going to defend that you are active lurking right through the game with the minimum of content. My question is – why if you like the playerlist and overall game here the best why are you playing ‘in the background’? That makes no sense.

I need to reread looking specifically for connections to Jason now, but a preliminary look over MOI's analysis seems to show that Sando is the scummiest because of voting patterns. However, I am not comfortable enough in that to vote for anyone, especially with Sando at L-2.

Storing this for future reference regarding possible links between Zajnet and Sando.

FYI, after that game, I got the very distinct impression that Poro is very anti-bussing.

Do you have a link to support this vague assertion? And what are you trying to say with this statement? That if Poro is scum you can’t be a buddy because he doesn’t bus? Can you explain the why the inherent WIFOM of that conclusion should be ignored?

Jack, you seem to spend your entire time saying 'Zajnet is DEFINITELY SCUM, but let's lynch this other guy...'.

This is a good point that I’d like any players not named Jack to address. What do you make of his constant shifting towards whatever wagon seems strong / popular. A quick run-down of Jack’s opinions about who is scum or the day's lynch–

Day 1 -

UNVOTE, VOTE:SANDO

NOT SO FAST SCUM

Are you guys blind? Why aren't you voting sando?

This listed as much to highlight potential early distancing. Sando is obv-scum early Day 1. It disappears and lo and behold Sando only becomes the obv-scum lynch again Day 3 when Sando is under fire.

magno is very scummy, don't think it needs to be explained.

Here I am public scum enemy number 1. In context this is just as my bandwagon Day 1 really took off.

Day 2 –

vote:moi

other scum between zajnet, imkingdavid, and maybe jason.

Begins the day on me. Note that IKD / vollkan is confirmed Town via death and that ‘maybe Jason’ is scum.

moi is still scum, but zajnet is obvscum too, see for yourself if you don't believe me.

Now look – Zajnet is obv-scum dejour now that he can’t resurrect my wagon.

jason why don't you vote for someone?

@sotty: yeah, he's amusing inconsistent in a scummy way, I'll probably vote for him if you quit asking me too.

Says he would vote for Jason if Sotty stopped bugging him. His next post? Revotes me? What happened to Zajnet as obv-scum?

But there's no excuse not to be voting moi right now.

Note Jason only has 1 vote at this juncture. His wagon hasn’t taken off.

Jason is null.

For context - Jason has 3 votes and five players aren’t yet voting.

moi has been very fakey

jason isn't that different from the game I mislynched him in, and he has scum pushing his lynch

I believe we should lynch ythan however. unvote, vote:ythan

Jason’s lynch is scum driven
Also suddenly lurker Ythan / Erg0 is so much scummier than lurker Zajnet. What? Zaj was obv scum not so long ago and had done NOTHING in the game since Jack voiced that opinion. Yet Ythan is now the must lynch.

Not voting (5) <-~ vollkan, Locke Lamora, Porochaz, Zajnet, jasonT1981

Vote ythan.

For context – Jason is still not under significant fire.

I propose a sando-farside-jack-sotty "townie discussion group". Although maybe sando still thinks I'm mafia. But I think discussing the game with people you generally trust leads to more insight than arguing with mafia. Topics:

Emphasis added – yes Sando is a “Townie” Day 2.

Jack speculates on any number of ‘Scum’ teams including myself, Sotty, vollkan, Zanjet and Ythan / Erg0 as the day goes on.

hmm, moi's posts leading up to deadline don't seem to be from a scum point of view.

It seems like I dropped jason after the start today because of moi going on his wagon. He is actually scummy and I trust sotty and farside.

unvote, vote:Jason

Jason is the obvious lynch today and suddenly Jack has a change of heart. In context this puts Jason at L-1. He unvotes in his next post.

Zajnet is scum vote:zajnet

Now Zajnet is scum again.

unvote, vote:Jason

Last page is pretty bad, someone hammer, don't wait for a claim.

Obv setting up fake-claim is obv.

unvote, vote:zajnet

I was thinking there weren't any worthwhile power roles after cop and that it would be best to push through without a claim. doc is sort of confirmed though...hmm.

Really? Cops are the only worthwhile PR you could think of?

Baring a counterclaim of jason, there is no earthly reason not to lynch zajnet instead.

Pushes for a counterclaim.

Zajnet is so clearly the lynch for tomorrow.

Once again Zajnet is obvscum.

Day 3 –

Starts off with ISO 69 containing simply “vote:zajnet”.

Just vote for zajnet.

But anyway, I said to myself "it has to be ergo because the only other option for zaj's partner is porochaz and he seems town" but I checked the playerlist and saw sando, reread in ISO, sando is scum. Very much so.

Wait suddenly Sando is scum again despite being only mentioned since early Day 1 as part of Jack’s “Town discussion group”. In context Poro has just attacked Sando and Sando has 1 vote.

I wasn't being sarcastic, I really do love it. You kind of don't notice him but when you look back it's obvious.

Yes he was Town when Jack went looking to buddy up to people Day 2.

Summary – Jack’s opinion about scum seems pretty much to float to wherever popular opinon seems headed. I’m scum Day 1. Jason is null / Town until too much pressure arrives on him. Then he’s scum but Jack facilitates the Doc fake-claim. Sando is town until today when he’s under pressure and wham – he’s scum.

This isn't scum-hunting. Jack's just playing off his 'meta' to do nothing but sling accusations at the Town approved targets or lurkers who aren't around to fight back.

UNVOTE: Zajnet
VOTE: Jack

[Jack]

You quote me:

a) claiming you were guilty when you were not a town approved target
b) claiming the jason wagon was bad when he was to the town approved target
c) calling sando scum after one person jumped on them

and conclude that I've been floating wherever popular opinion went? You criticize my targeting "lurkers who aren't around to fight back" when you have been voting zajnet?

I thought you were scum in smalltown because your cases were bad reasoning strung together with polemical rhetoric. I figured on it being your town style eventually and dropped you as a suspect this game when I reread that one. I also remembered arguing that game (perhaps you remember too) that zang wasn't scum like people were saying, because I'd seen him play scummy town. That was also a parallel of jason this game.

[Incognito]

Sotty7 has been prodded.

[Sotty7]

Bah, I thought I posted yesterday but I didn't. I must be going crazy.

I'll catch up in a bit.

[Erg0]

The long-awaited part 2 of my dead scum analysis - this is based on others' posts about Zach/jason prior to his lynch.

farside22: Mentions a couple of times on day 1 that Zach is too defensive/not scumhunting, but is largely positive towards him, agreeing with his opinions of Poro and Zaj. He wasn't on her scumlist in 107, and in 237 she criticises Locke's vote on him. She also says in 235 that jason's catchup post was good, then doesn't mention him again until 340, where she says that she finds jason scummy based on Zach's play and puts the third vote on his wagon. This seems like a reversal of her opinion on day 1, though she never really called Zach town. After that it's gung ho until the lynch, based largely on Sotty's meta read on Zach and jason's poor play under pressure. I've done these kind of switches before when I've suddenly realised that someone I was only semi-paying attention to is scummy, so I could see farside as town. Her third vote and subsequent push were pivotal in getting jason from a small wagon to a lynch, and her tone is generally very convincing.

Jack: Only makes one day 1 reference to Zach/jason that I can find (in 72), then mentions jason in almost every post throughout day 2, starting with calling him "maybe" scum in his first post of the day. The weirdness of the meta exchange in 326ish has been well-documented, and the scum->town->scum shift based on MoI's movements over the course of the day doesn't really ring true to me, especially after going to the lengths of claiming masonizer on day 1 to try and get MoI lynched. The entirety of day 2 reads like the failed product of night 1 scumtalk. The only thing throwing me a little is that Jack is, for want of a better word, weird. Hard to look past all of this on that basis, though.

Locke Lamora: After noting Zach's chainsaw of MoI for his suspicion of Locke, I see that Locke did something similar to Sotty in 102 over her Zach meta case. The little vote exchange with Sotty towards the end of the day (after earlier calling her scummy) could be read as him leveraging support for the Zaj wagon, especially as he tried to bring Sotty back to it with him after saying that it was stagnating and contained scummy players. Lack of day 2 posts makes analysis more difficult, but there's some circumstantial stuff there on day 1.

MagnaofIllusion: Second only to Sotty in consistently scrutinising Zach/jason throughout the game, once Sotty convinced him of the merits of her meta read around post 86. Calling him out for inactivity on V/LA was kind of harsh, but it shows commitment I guess. I like that he didn't switch to Jack around 362 after he'd alreasy called them out for distancing earlier - he could well have killed the wagon right there. Overall positive impression of his posting about Zach/jason.

Porochaz: Only 297 and 424 reference Zach/jason, and neither really says much. Says in 424 that he'd vote jason once he answers farside's question about protecting Locke, but Zajnet jumps in first and jason's next post is the self-hammer. No townie points for this, since vollkan had already countered, but I would probably expect Poroscum to just vote their buddy at this point to try and salvage some townie cred.

Sando: As has been noted, Sando really never mentions Zach/jason at all, except for a question in 115. He also notably misses jason from his list in 307 of people who are scummy for accusing Zaj over the hammer, and doesn't acknowledge the omission after Sotty points it out. This is fairly serious, since he was voting Jack partially for this point. Makes me wonder if there's a reason that Sando didn't want to group jason with the other two. Similar to Poro, had the opportunity to put the lynch-1 vote on jason and passed it up, though lack of any real opinion in his two posts about vollkan's research on two doctor scenarios looks very wait-and-see.

Sotty7: Was just chipping away at Zach, then Jason, all of day 1 and 2. Progression from suspicion to outright accusation looks natural and townish. Again, obvtown player is obvtown.

Zajnet: Only two posts of note; 116 is an incredibly wishy-washy assessment of Sotty's meta on Zach, and 432 is the lynch-1 on jason following vollkan's counterclaim. Though his content is similar to Poro's, his out-of-the-blue vote is scummier than Poro's wait-and-see approach.

Player rankings which combine the two reads are upcoming.

[Sando]

Do you have a link to support this vague assertion? And what are you trying to say with this statement? That if Poro is scum you can’t be a buddy because he doesn’t bus? Can you explain the why the inherent WIFOM of that conclusion should be ignored?

From the quicktopic in Mafia 94 I said this:

Bugger, I'd suggest that Jalyn/replacement stay on ICE, and Poro push on me tomorrow.

I specifically wanted the next day to go quickly on myself, I was obviously going to get lynched, and did, and I stated to Poro that he should bus. Poro utterly refused to push on me that day, read 984, just the day I get lynched if you want.

This is fairly serious, since he was voting Jack partially for this point.

Really? You're actually equating Jack and Farside voting the hammerer straight out of night with Jason's 'interesting question'? That's a joke right?


Locke, you might not need to push hard to actually get the lynch, but scum want my lynch to happen as quickly as possible. For that reason, despite knowing that I'm quite possibly the lynch today, and probably deserve to be lynched for ignoring Jason, I'm going to push back on those who want my lynch to happen quickly specifically. You're not just pushing for my lynch, you're deliberately exaggerating and stretching the truth in order to get it quickly. You claimed I never mentioned Zach, which is incorrect. You claim that my play in Karma is similar to here, which it isn't.

Others are at least coming up with original points and asking questions, you're trying to turn everything I say into a scumtell and just stating that I'm scummy.

[Sotty7]

I'm tending towards Locke being the scum out of Poro/Locke now, Locke is just reaching and reaching for an easy lynch here. I was happy to accept suspicion for lack of interaction with Jason, and I've copped that from a few people, fair enough, but Locke wants to push that to say that I literally haven't mentioned Jason or Zach all game, which isn't true.

I brought up your ISO and did a “find all” for both Zach and Jason. You mention Zach once and never mention Jason until he is dead. It is clearly true.

Jack is probably town. His whole interaction with Jason yesterday just feels genuine to me. On the same hand Poro is probably town who doesn't have the time/will power to commit to the thread. I've seen him play this way before.

The scum are hiding in Sando, Erg0, Zajnet and Locke

[Sando]

I brought up your ISO and did a “find all” for both Zach and Jason. You mention Zach once and never mention Jason until he is dead. It is clearly true.

Do you not understand the word 'literally'? It's part of a consistent stretching by Locke, it's not as though I'm claiming 'ZOMG HE LIED, LAL!!!', I'm simply pointing out that he's stretching the truth.

I've also seen Poro play this exact way as scum, you know one of those games we've all been talking about as meta for me as scum? Yeah that one...

[Porochaz]

I brought up your ISO and did a “find all” for both Zach and Jason. You mention Zach once and never mention Jason until he is dead. It is clearly true.

Do you not understand the word 'literally'? It's part of a consistent stretching by Locke, it's not as though I'm claiming 'ZOMG HE LIED, LAL!!!', I'm simply pointing out that he's stretching the truth.

I've also seen Poro play this exact way as scum, you know one of those games we've all been talking about as meta for me as scum? Yeah that one...

Which one? The one I was active and really involved in, and farside linked?

Yeah because thats exactly the same way Im playing in this game...

[Erg0]

The long-awaited conclusion! I'll catch up on current events and lay a vote after this roundup.

farside22: I was pretty happy with farside's play towards Zach/jason, and the one-sidedness of their interactions, even when farside was pushing hard for jason's lynch, makes me think that she wasn't bussing. Town read.

Jack: The choreographed feel that I got from jason's posts about Jack was reinforced by Jack's sudden focus on jason after ignoring him for most of day 1. I get the "too obvious" feeling about him at times, but I'd definitely rank him as the scummiest of the "active" posters.

Locke Lamora: Possible reciprocal chainsaw with Zach, plus his hop off and back again at the end of day 1 are mild scumtells. Lack of day 2 information leaves this at a slight scum read for now.

MagnaofIllusion: Sitting at about the same level as farside in terms of towniness of his push on Zach/jason. Don't get a bussy feeling from Zach bailing on his case against him on day 1. Town read.

Porochaz: Little mention of Zach/jason from Poro, but probably the least scummy of the lurkers for my money. Let's call it null.

Sando: Little to go on, fits best in a "scum with" scenario. If Jack's scum then I'd peg him as their third buddy over Zaj. Alone I've got a moderately scummy read on him.

Sotty7: Strongly town.

Zajnet: Disappointingly little to go on in his posts about Zach/jason. Scummiest of the lurkers based on pure scumtells.

[Erg0]

This is fairly serious, since he was voting Jack partially for this point.

Really? You're actually equating Jack and Farside voting the hammerer straight out of night with Jason's 'interesting question'? That's a joke right?

I'm not equating them, it was Sotty that did (roughly) that back in 308. I'm talking about the fact that you didn't respond to her point at the time. Your extreme reaction to me raising it now makes me wonder even more why you let it pass on day 2.

Jack, you seem to spend your entire time saying 'Zajnet is DEFINITELY SCUM, but let's lynch this other guy...'.

Granted the above, this is actually an excellent point. So good that it makes me wonder why you're not voting for him.

I'm leaning strongly towards a jason/Sando/Jack scum trio at this point. Definitely want to lynch one of the last two today, Sando's not ripe for lynch -1 yet so...

Vote: Jack

[Sando]

That's hardly extreme for me

I've voted Jack for most of the game, I've decided that I'm best served highlighting the things that I find wrong with Poro and Locke at the moment. I'm also not sure if he's a real jackass or acting, people seem to think he acts like a jackass a lot of the time. I hadn't noticed your points around his interactions of Jason, I will look at it in the next day or two to see what I think.

[Incognito]

Zajnet has been prodded.

[Zajnet]

Sorry for needed to be prodded (again).

I'm going to sound like lurking, wagoning scum, but that's OK.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Jack

There's nothing I could say that wouldn't be a direct quote from someone in the last page. Jack is scum.

[Sando]

Erg0, you say that my point about Jack and Zajnet is a good one, yet don't include him in your likely scumteam? The reason I don't like it is because it's pretty classic distancing on your partner, it's exactly what I did in Karma mafia as scum, basically constantly say 'this guy is scum, but let's lynch this other guy', and you're all set when it comes to lynching them and you look pro-town when they flip.

What motivation do you see for Jack scum to do that to a townie, which Zaj would have to be for it to be me/Jack as the last 2 scum?

[Sando]

And Zaj, there's only 2 people discussing Zach at the moment, and one of us isn't even voting him, and hasn't actually contributed anything to the conversation about him being scummy, and yet you can't come up with anything original?

If you weren't pushing a counter wagon to myself I'd assume you were pushing a counter-wagon to your partner... Damn.

[Sotty7]

I brought up your ISO and did a “find all” for both Zach and Jason. You mention Zach once and never mention Jason until he is dead. It is clearly true.

Do you not understand the word 'literally'? It's part of a consistent stretching by Locke, it's not as though I'm claiming 'ZOMG HE LIED, LAL!!!', I'm simply pointing out that he's stretching the truth.

I've also seen Poro play this exact way as scum, you know one of those games we've all been talking about as meta for me as scum? Yeah that one...

Semantics, ick.

This is where I repeat the fact I have seen Poro play this way as town and that maybe it isn't his town meta, or scum meta and that it's just

his meta

. So if you want me to entertain a possible PoroScum you are going to have to do better than “META!”

I feel like I have had this discussion in this thread before.

Oh wait...

[Locke Lamora]

Having a very busy time at work right now, will all be cleared by tomorrow so I will be catching up then.

[Sando]

I brought up your ISO and did a “find all” for both Zach and Jason. You mention Zach once and never mention Jason until he is dead. It is clearly true.

Do you not understand the word 'literally'? It's part of a consistent stretching by Locke, it's not as though I'm claiming 'ZOMG HE LIED, LAL!!!', I'm simply pointing out that he's stretching the truth.

I've also seen Poro play this exact way as scum, you know one of those games we've all been talking about as meta for me as scum? Yeah that one...

Semantics, ick.

This is where I repeat the fact I have seen Poro play this way as town and that maybe it isn't his town meta, or scum meta and that it's just

his meta

. So if you want me to entertain a possible PoroScum you are going to have to do better than “META!”

I feel like I have had this discussion in this thread before.

Oh wait...

A lot of other people have made the distinction, he didn't, it's not semantics.

And I'm not attacking Poro over meta, merely pointing out that he's played this way as scum before as a counter to you saying that he's playing to town-meta.

[Porochaz]

But in your example I didnt play that way. In fact I played the opposite. Stop saying otherwise.

[Sando]

But in your example I didnt play that way. In fact I played the opposite. Stop saying otherwise.

The example I'm giving is 984, and you played very similarly there, with me as your partner.
viewtopic.php?p=2297458

[Porochaz]

I know the exact example you were meaning. Your speaking rubbish though, I was active in that game, and anyone who is seriously taking this argument into consideration I implore you to take a look into that game and see.

[Porochaz]

Its also not my meta. I now am doing it myself, self meta-ing doesn't work but I don't want to be known as the guy who lurks through games because generally Im not. People like farside and erg0 will be able to vouch for me on that one I hope.