Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[Seraphim]

Vote Count

NicolBolas(0) -

Jack(2)

– NicolBolas, PranaDevil
vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215(1)

- Stef

Espeonage(6)

– vollkan, DemonHybrid, horrordude0215,CooLDoG, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate

vollkan(1)

- curiouskarmadog
CooLDoG(0) -
Nero Cain(0) -
zwetschenwasser(0) -

a2rudeboy(1)

- Looker
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker(2)

– zwetschenwasser, Espeonage
SnakePlissken(0) -
PranaDevil(0) -

DemonHybrid(2)

– Jack, Nero Cain
totallynotmafia(0) -

Not Voting(3)

- vezokpiraka, SnakePlissken, totallynotmafia

With 18 alive, it is 10 to lynch
Deadline: September 16, 2010, 12:00 pm, Central Time

Two players, vezokpiraka and totallynotmafia, have not posted since the start of the game. If they still haven't once I've come back later today, prods are going out.

[Espeonage]

Actually UNVOTE: Looker

[Espeonage]

iso 3

He is wishy washy.
Vote
He isn't going to by quick lynched.
He is consistent with his bad town meta.

Considering that was tipping point vote, I'm not happy about it. It is opportunistic and doesn't even give a real reason. A wagon flop if I ever saw one.

VOTE: Pom

That is the scum that is most likely on my wagon.

[horrordude0215]

Sorry about not posting yesterday, everyone... I basically had to help my dad and his girlfriend go and rescue my stepbrother from being kidnapped by his dad. (Long story)

Anyways, I'll have a decent post up later today... Promise

[vollkan]

I call the epic chainsaw def. Sorry I just couldn't help it . But the definition of the new chain saw def is: A player defending another player by attacking that players attacker. So that fits the bill.

*sigh*

The idea of a "chainsaw defence" is a load of crap. It started as something that newbs began copying from the wiki which, I should note, is now very clear that:

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

The reason why is fairly simple: it's not only entirely legitimate but actually entirely pro-town for Player X to attack Player Y because Player Y suspects Player Z for crappy reasons.

Also jokes are almost never really jokes. I don't let anything slide as "just joking!!! lolz!!!".

First, jokes are actually almost always jokes. They are a nulltell, a product of individually idiosyncratic playstyles.

Second, it's not about letting things "slide". The question you SHOULD be trying to answer is "Does this action make Player X more likely to be scum?" Despite encountering many people in the "joking is scummy" camp, I've never once seen a convincing reason as to why it is scummy.

iso 3

He is wishy washy.
Vote
He isn't going to by quick lynched.
He is consistent with his bad town meta.

Considering that was tipping point vote, I'm not happy about it. It is opportunistic and doesn't even give a real reason. A wagon flop if I ever saw one.

VOTE: Pom

That is the scum that is most likely on my wagon.

Strawman. Pom's reasons:

On another serious not, I am suspicious of Espy for being wishy-washy and other fun stuff (like, how vollkan explained, that a smiley doesn't make Jack town, no matter whether it was the "correct response" in Espy's mind or not).

The way you characterised her post is, as I said, a strawman. Her reasons weren't entirely original (but that isn't a scumtell), to be sure, but I can't see any basis for concluding that her vote is opportunistic, given that the reasons underpinning it are sound.

It puzzles me - if Pom is town and she genuinely agrees with my argument against you, are you saying that she shouldn't vote you?

[Jack]

I also don't like this... I know you are joking but it just makes my scum detector ([patent pending]now if you didn't get it that WAS a joke) go off strongly. I don't see the point of posting that stuff other then to confirm my theory that you (Jack) and ESP are scum buddies. I just don't think these types of posts are pro-town. I would vote you but I like ESP lynch better.

So I posted it to convince you that we really are scumbuddies (scum want to convince you of that?)
You just don't think it's pro town (how is scum revealing themselves not pro town?)

Your arguments assume that we aren't scumbuddies, but rather that I'm town who is acting anti-town.

[curiouskarmadog]

unvote, vote Espeonage

sketchy play.

if this gets to -1 (-3) do not hammer, it is in the town best interest that I get this info out today.


.........

actually, -1, doesnt really matter....going to claim (again just partial) next time I jump on (later today/tomorrow)...just dont have the time at the moment.

[SnakePlissken]

I need to ask a n00b question. Everyone keeps referring to meta? Can I have some clarification on what that is?

As far as voting goes Im going to

vote Jack

as this whole joking around with the scumbuddies thing really is now beyond the point of joking around now. It's now like they are trying to hammer home 'we are scum lol' kind of routine, which actually makes you think well if there joking about it there not, but they quite possibly are? Would that be WIFOM? At the very least deliberately acting anti-town doesn't help the town with it's investigations into rooting out scum, unless of course thats what your trying to do? I think I need to keep a watchful eye on this situation going forward.

[Jack]

plissken is scum, trust me.

unvote, vote:SnakePlissken

His justification for his vote sounds like scum justifying their vote.

[Jack]

Unvote, vote:NicolBolas
Jack
Unvote, vote:vezokpiraka
Unvote, vote:curiouskarmadog
Unvote, vote:Stef
Unvote, vote:horrordude0215
Espeonage
Unvote, vote:vollkan
Unvote, vote:CooLDoG
Unvote, vote:Nero Cain
Unvote, vote:zwetschenwasser
Unvote, vote:a2rudeboy
Unvote, vote:Pomegranate
Unvote, vote:Looker
Unvote, vote:PranaDevil
Unvote, vote:DemonHybrid Dr Pepper
Unvote, vote:totallynotmafia







Unvote, vote:SnakePlissken

[SnakePlissken]

So I vote for you, you throw in a 'trust me' line and vote for me in less than 15 minutes? You've just reinforced my vote on you.

[Espeonage]

@ Vollkan: Where did Pom say she agreed with your reason for voting me?

[CooLDoG]

Unvote, vote:NicolBolas
Jack
Unvote, vote:vezokpiraka
Unvote, vote:curiouskarmadog
Unvote, vote:Stef
Unvote, vote:horrordude0215
Espeonage
Unvote, vote:vollkan
Unvote, vote:CooLDoG
Unvote, vote:Nero Cain
Unvote, vote:zwetschenwasser
Unvote, vote:a2rudeboy
Unvote, vote:Pomegranate
Unvote, vote:Looker
Unvote, vote:PranaDevil
Unvote, vote:DemonHybrid Dr Pepper
Unvote, vote:totallynotmafia







Unvote, vote:SnakePlissken

Epic stupid... now may I ask you how this is pro-town? And what about that OMGUS? This reinforces my theory that you and esp are scum...

@snake: okay where to start... meta is basically how a player plays in previous games. It is used to see if they act a certain way if they are scum or town or other... If for example, we look up a game ESP played and found that when he was town he defended the most stupid person in the town (sorry Jack). Then when we look at this game now I would be less inclined to vote for ESP on that reason. The same works the other way round too. If for example Jack (sorry Jack) when he was scum in another game made outrageous anti-town posts I would be more likely to vote for him on that reason. I hope I made it clear.

@ESP: you know that defending people is anti-town (most of the time, and early in the game) right? It is generally considered pro-town to be aggressive. And are you and Jack the only smart people in town? And why does an rvs wagon need a counter wagon? And you can buddy up with each other even if you aren't scum, but scum tend to do it a lot more often. As I said before I don't like jokes. Would you mind to give us your definition of "smart"? Thanks.

@vollkan it was kinda a joke actually, but... you never know.

[Jack]

This reinforces my theory that you...are scum

What a coincidence

Timestamp of cooldogs "suspicion" of me: Post #112 » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:33 pm

Time of my vote for cooldog: Post #109 » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:28 pm

Unvote, vote:CooLDoG

Just a few hours after I vote him, he says I'm scum. How

convenient

For those that aren't aware, this is textbook "omgus": http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

[Nero Cain]

vote: DemonHybird
All the guy does is vote and then goes V/LA.

Golly gosh! Voting

and

going on VLA! He must be scum!

I don't know about you but I kinda want to know why he's switched his vote twice and why he hasn't explained anything.

CKD deserves an

FOS

until he explains himself better.

curious as to what anything I have said is scummy.

Read your own ISO. You said you'd claim. I don't like day 1 claims but fine. You said that what you have to tell us will help. Fine. I'm patiently waiting on you to explain yourself. But I'm NOT pushing for your lynch...at least not yet.

CKD deserves an

FOS

until he explains himself better.

ESP ISO 3 is bad.
ESP ISO 9 is WIFOM

vote: DemonHybird

All the guy does is vote and then goes V/LA.

I don't understand this post though. Why did you attack ESP and then not vote him?

From my vantage point Jack, ESP and DH all look bad. Are they all scum? I'd like to think so but I doubt we are that lucky. But for the time being they all look like decent lynch candidates. Lets say that Jack is scum, and he votes for DH apparently for no reason. Perhaps it was, I guess it would be bussing, if DH was also his scum buddy. If DH was lynched he could come out and say

LOOK I FOUND YOU SCUM!!!

That said I'm on board for lynching all three but Jack is the one I'd like to see go the most.

unvote;vote: Jack

[Jack]

Unvote, vote:Nero Cain

unvote;vote: Jack

More omgus :rolleyes:

**********

also I'm seriously concerned by you "I'm on board for lynching all three" including DH who has barely posted. That smells more of scum deciding who he's going to call his suspects than town really looking for mafia.

[Nero Cain]

Unvote, vote:Nero Cain

unvote;vote: Jack

More omgus :rolleyes:

**********

also I'm seriously concerned by you "I'm on board for lynching all three" including DH who has barely posted. That smells more of scum deciding who he's going to call his suspects than town really looking for mafia.

So why did YOU vte for DH?

[Jack]

^^ :rolleyes:

I think I feel better about nero caine than plissken at the moment.

unvote, vote:Nero Caine[/b[

[Nero Cain]

^^ :rolleyes:

I think I feel better about nero caine than plissken at the moment.

unvote, vote:Nero Caine[/b[

[Jack]

Sorry, messed up the tags

unvote, vote:Nero Caine

[Pomegranate]

iso 3

He is wishy washy.
Vote
He isn't going to by quick lynched.
He is consistent with his bad town meta.

Considering that was tipping point vote, I'm not happy about it. It is opportunistic and doesn't even give a real reason. A wagon flop if I ever saw one.

VOTE: Pom

That is the scum that is most likely on my wagon.

I said that I agreed with vollkan's statement in the post in which I voted you-

On another serious not, I am suspicious of Espy for being wishy-washy and other fun stuff (like, how vollkan explained, that a smiley doesn't make Jack town, no matter whether it was the "correct response" in Espy's mind or not).

And I didn't vote you

because

you weren't going the be quicklynched. That doesn't make sense, and I wouldn't say it. Stop misrepresenting me.

Also: What do you think of CKD's vote?

[vollkan]

As far as voting goes Im going to vote Jack as this whole joking around with the scumbuddies thing really is now beyond the point of joking around now. It's now like they are trying to hammer home 'we are scum lol' kind of routine, which actually makes you think well if there joking about it there not, but they quite possibly are? Would that be WIFOM? At the very least deliberately acting anti-town doesn't help the town with it's investigations into rooting out scum, unless of course thats what your trying to do? I think I need to keep a watchful eye on this situation going forward.

Something is only a scumtell if it is more likely to be done by scum than by town. Nothing you have said in the above explains why Jack's joking is more likely to be done by scum than town. You've raised the

possibility

that they are scumbuddies hiding in plain sight, but there's absolutely no evidence to support that hypothesis. I would also point out that such play strikes me as typical from Jack, metawise.

So, a simple question, why do you think Jack's joking around is more likely to come from scum than town?

Snake+2

plissken is scum, trust me.

unvote, vote:SnakePlissken

His justification for his vote sounds like scum justifying their vote.

Reasons?

@ Vollkan: Where did Pom say she agreed with your reason for voting me?

On another serious not, I am suspicious of Espy for being wishy-washy

and other fun stuff (like, how vollkan explained, that a smiley doesn't make Jack town, no matter whether it was the "correct response" in Espy's mind or not).

Epic stupid... now may I ask you how this is pro-town? And what about that OMGUS? This reinforces my theory that you and esp are scum...

You jump from Jack's play being anti-town (and, frankly, I can't see how his weird voting roulette thing is anti-town) to him being scum with Esp. What's your path of reasoning there?

@ESP: you know that defending people is anti-town (most of the time, and early in the game) right?

You've entirely missed the point of the case against Esp if you think that he is being attacked for 'defending' people.

This reinforces my theory that you...are scum

What a coincidence

Timestamp of cooldogs "suspicion" of me: Post #112 » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:33 pm

Time of my vote for cooldog: Post #109 » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:28 pm

Unvote, vote:CooLDoG

Just a few hours after I vote him, he says I'm scum. How

convenient

For those that aren't aware, this is textbook "omgus": http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

You've made me find something interesting here. ISOing CD's suspicion of you is very interesting:

Why do you ask this on your first post??? It would seem that a post restriction would be only noticeable after some time. vote jack I personally think this is better then any RV could be...

Suspicion

@Jack did a little meta on you. Your play seems pretty consistent from what I saw. unvote.

Loses suspicion on meta grounds

@esp wish-washy is always a scum tell as well as being the third vote... (seems like you fit both doesn’t it?) I like my vote on you for now. What if you and Jack are scum buddies, I just thought I might throw out that possibility.

Raises the prospect of Esp-Jack scumteam. This is interesting because he actually has, based on his previous mention of Jack, no reason to suspect Jack individually, and yet he is lumping Jack with Esp as scum.
(Also, CD, I will headdesk if you say "I was just throwing it out there". There are 18 people in this game, so there are a lot of technically possible scumlinks. To raise a pairing implies to some degree that you think it has a higher than average likelihood)

why not throw it out there? just reading through a couple of times, it seems pretty clear to me that the two people who are most closely budding up are jack and esp. they also happen to be the two players that are the most on the defensive now. I’m not sure if I’ve gotten good enough of a read on either yet...but if you asked me to pick my scum pair right now, it would be them.

What's noteworthy here is that he doesn't actually give ANY reason for suspecting Jack. Rather, he points out that Jack and Esp are buddying (I completely understand an accusation that Esp is buddying to Jack, but Jack hasn't been buddying to Esp, other than the "perfect sense" thing which I've already indicated I think was not to be taken seriously) and then points out that they are both "on the defensive".

NOTHING in that post is a scumtell against Jack.

CD+5

Also, to keep my points up to date, I would currently have Esp at 57 (ie.

ESP+7

)

I don't know about you but I kinda want to know why he's switched his vote twice and why he hasn't explained anything.

I want to know his reasoning too. But that doesn't make him scum.

Read your own ISO. You said you'd claim. I don't like day 1 claims but fine. You said that what you have to tell us will help. Fine. I'm patiently waiting on you to explain yourself. But I'm NOT pushing for your lynch...at least not yet.

What on earth do you find scummy about his claim?

From my vantage point Jack, ESP and DH all look bad. Are they all scum? I'd like to think so but I doubt we are that lucky. But for the time being they all look like decent lynch candidates.

DH has made 3 posts, and you haven't even mentioned Jack until now. So that makes one person who could not reasonably want to lynch (DH) and then you jumping behind the consensus candidate (Esp) and the apparent rival (Jack).

NC+4

Lets say that Jack is scum, and he votes for DH apparently for no reason. Perhaps it was, I guess it would be bussing, if DH was also his scum buddy. If DH was lynched he could come out and say LOOK I FOUND YOU SCUM!!!

This makes no sense to me.

That said I'm on board for lynching all three but Jack is the one I'd like to see go the most.

Now you get an additional

CD+2

. Reason being is that not only have you failed to mention Jack at all until this post, but I cannot conceive of any reason why you could reasonably want to see Jack lyched over Esp (outside a scenario in which you and Esp are scumbuddies, of course)

[curiouskarmadog]

here is the partial claim and why I think it is important that I tell you.

I am one part of a neighbor. My neighbor is totallynotmafia. I am not sure why he is not talking now, we talked before the game started....(we cant talk during the day). I do not know his alignment.

together we have a "vig-like" ability. Dont want to get into the mechanic(and there is more to it), but we both have to decide who to kill. If we cant decide, it doesnt happen. Now, why am I telling you this? Well, if one of us dies, then the other can use the vig like ability alone. Now I cant imagine the mod would give scum an extra kill like that, but again, i dont know my neighbor's alignment.

My fear is that I will be offed tonight, without telling you this. then if my neighbor IS indeed scum, there will be an additional kill and no one will know where it was coming from.

[curiouskarmadog]

thoughts?...should I have claimed, why or why not?

[DemonHybrid]

@Mod: I need to extend the V/LA until sunday afternoon. Were staying an extra night and i can barely reply...doing so on my terrible pantech matrix.

Posting some thoughts tomorrow.