Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[Jack]

No you shouldn't have claimed... I don't think the mod would give scum an extra kill like that, he would just off you to start.

vollkan makes some very good points

[curiouskarmadog]

well I can question the mod all day...but here are the facts.

I have a neighbor i must work with.
I dont know his alignment
together we can kill.
if one of us dies, the other can kill alone.
did I mention I dont know his alignment?

EXACTLY..if he is did "off me to start"..then there would be an additional kill (if scum or even an SK)..

if i didnt claim, and scum started getting additional kills, no one would know who they were coming from..

now you know.

[Jack]

well, I don't mind outguessing the mod I guess.

Unfortunately it seems like neither of you have a post restriction.

[Jack]

Wait, tnm talked to you? He hasn't posted here yet. That would qualify as a subtle post restriction...nvm I take it back, you guys are set, I'm not going to full claim but you guys are safe.

[vollkan]

EBWOP to previous post. The last "CD+2" I gave should be

NC+2

here is the partial claim and why I think it is important that I tell you.

I am one part of a neighbor. My neighbor is totallynotmafia. I am not sure why he is not talking now, we talked before the game started....(we cant talk during the day). I do not know his alignment.

together we have a "vig-like" ability. Dont want to get into the mechanic(and there is more to it), but we both have to decide who to kill. If we cant decide, it doesnt happen. Now, why am I telling you this? Well, if one of us dies, then the other can use the vig like ability alone. Now I cant imagine the mod would give scum an extra kill like that, but again, i dont know my neighbor's alignment.

My fear is that I will be offed tonight, without telling you this. then if my neighbor IS indeed scum, there will be an additional kill and no one will know where it was coming from.

I don't think you should have claimed. As Jack said, the scum strategy in that situation is obvious - off you and then have an extra kill each night. I can't imagine any decent mod not realising that that would be extremely overpowered. It basically makes the game swingy - since a lot then comes down to whether you outguess the mod or not, which is never a good way for a game to be.

[curiouskarmadog]

well if I assumed the mod wouldnt have made the game that swingy, then I would have been outguessing him, right? Again, all i know is I have a neighbor whose alignment is unknown (could be an SK or mafia) and if I die, he can kill alone...(again, there is more to the claim/mechanic, but the gist is there)

I went back and forth on it...anyway, it is out there.

(side note: Mod, I would like to discuss this situation end game)

[horrordude0215]

@ HD: It was for the purpose of seeing reactions either a scumbag trying to get opportunistic or a townie doing something along the vein of what actually happened.

I can understand that, but when you voted for him after he said he needed to claim something before the day ends (post 27), and then later backpedaled by saying that scum wouldn't say they needed to claim unless it was miller (post 46), it understandably raises flags.

We don't know if scum had night talk pre-game so I'm considering that little spat null.

IIRC, doesn't scum ALWAYS have pregame talk?


Jack, you FoS'd Snake because you didn't believe he had a decent enough post for Page 3. Didn't you read his "This is my first non-newbie game, and I like to read things a lot before I comment on them" post?

1 - to make sure that my vote doesn't add to any kind of quick lynch, but let it be known I would be happy with Esp's lynch.

He has 4 votes on him. There are I think 10 to lynch. How the hell would you contribute to a quicklynch?

I may not be around regularly at the moment (or at least as regular as I have been in the past) if I'm not going to be around for potentially 24 hours I don't wish to have a vote on someone and have that vote possibly allow even an accidental quick lynch (recent issues elsewhere that I'm not allowed to comment on have shown that to me). Hence why I'm not out and out voting him for the moment. Consider me just being safe instead of sorry.

Okay, first of all, 24 hours is not a quicklynch. Second, you don't think someone would get on and unvote if Espeonage was placed at L-1 so far from deadline? Come on... you seem like scum not wanting to jump on a wagon to me.

FoS

for now.

CKD deserves an FOS until he explains himself berrter.

ESP ISO 3 is bad.
ESP ISO 9 is WIFOM

vote: DemonHybird

All the guy does is vote and then goes V/LA.

There are so many things wrong here. First you FoS CKD until he explains himself, which he already said he would do before the day end. Then you seem to briefly ISO Espeonage (The highest wagon) and give vague satements without any reasoning, and then vote someone completely different because they went V/LA. WTF?

Major FoS

VOTE: Pom

That is the scum that is most likely on my wagon.

I was considering leaving you alone and tackling someone else until I saw this post. Wth?

Jack 108 - Huh? He's scum because of how he justified his vote? And nice OMGUS there, btw.

Jack 113 - ... I really don't know what to say here. You voted EVERYONE. Why? So you could call OMGUS on them?

CKD, thank you for claiming... I would say that you should have definitely claimed today because of that.

[Espeonage]

At HD: Its called reaction rousing.

CKD you shouldn't have claimed.

UNVOTE: Pom

[CooLDoG]

@Volk, If you have noted I am not currently veteing Jack right now. I find him to be mor anti-town then scummy right now. However I do find ESP scummy.

@ESP: why the unvote just now?

[Espeonage]

One of my points was proven wrong. I therefore feel I should have retracted my vote and so I did.

[curiouskarmadog]

CKD you shouldn't have claimed.

given the facts, why?

[vollkan]

@Volk, If you have noted I am not currently veteing Jack right now. I find him to be mor anti-town then scummy right now. However I do find ESP scummy.

I call bullshit:

Why do you ask this on your first post??? It would seem that a post restriction would be only noticeable after some time. vote jack I personally think this is better then any RV could be...

@esp wish-washy is always a scum tell as well as being the third vote... (seems like you fit both doesn’t it?) I like my vote on you for now. What if you and Jack are scum buddies, I just thought I might throw out that possibility.

Epic stupid... now may I ask you how this is pro-town? And what about that OMGUS? This reinforces my theory that you [Jack] and esp are scum...

why not throw it out there? just reading through a couple of times, it seems pretty clear to me that the two people who are most closely budding up are jack and esp. they also happen to be the two players that are the most on the defensive now. I’m not sure if I’ve gotten good enough of a read on either yet...but if you asked me to pick my scum pair right now, it would be them.

Each of the above posts demonstrates suspicion of Jack and

not

merely thinking he is anti-town.

CD+2

[Espeonage]

Because there was no need for you to claim it.

[zwetschenwasser]

How interesting. I have CKD's role as well, but with Pomegranate.

[vezokpiraka]

Still here. Will post later.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm back.

I need to regain myself before I post though, so hang tight. Expect a post around 4 or so.

[Espeonage]

How interesting. I have CKD's role as well, but with Pomegranate.

okay...

I'm tempted to believe both of these sets of claims so far. But. I would also hazard a guess that one side of each is mafia else it is looking like massclaim would break the game. I (think I) know seraphim better than that.

[DemonHybrid]

4 PM EST (at request of Espy)

[Seraphim]

Truth is entirely subjective depending on the person viewing the "truth" and the objective victim of previously mentioned "truth".

Vote Count

NicolBolas(0) -

Jack(4)

– NicolBolas, PranaDevil, SnakePlissken, Nero Cain
vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215(1)

- Stef

Espeonage(7)

– vollkan, DemonHybrid, horrordude0215,CooLDoG, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate, curiouskarmadog
vollkan(0) -
CooLDoG(0) -

Nero Cain(1)

- Jack
zwetschenwasser(0) -

a2rudeboy(1)

- Looker
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker(1)

– zwetschenwasser
SnakePlissken(0) -
PranaDevil(0) -
DemonHybrid(0) –
totallynotmafia(0) -

Not Voting(3)

- vezokpiraka, totallynotmafia, Espeonage

With 18 alive, it is 10 to lynch
Deadline: September 16, 2010, 12:00 pm, Central Time

DemonHybrid's extended V/LA is noted.
Totallynotmafia has been prodded
vezokpiraka has been prodded
All questions to the mod should be bolded or PM'd to me.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, I guess I can get started.

I posted nothing at first to see what peoples' reactions would be to absolutely no reasoning from me and especially with sharp-timed votes. I really had no clue that everyone else was going to follow on my Espy vote. But let me explain what I think about everyone and everything so far:

My Looker vote: The only reasoning of this vote was for RVS, and on Looker because his vote was differently formatted. He responded actually quite well for an RVS vote without stated reasoning and in an interesting way. I left it on to see if I could get another reaction and to see if I could sharp-time my vote for more reactions from others. Then game the Jack/Espy fiasco, as I'd like to call it.

This Jack/Espy fiasco: I felt like Jack was acting too scummy for his own good...a meta check with Jack shows that he likes early-game gambits, hence his talk on the post restriction. Reaction fishing. So I waited and thought about putting pressure on Prana, but I noticed that a LOT of people were starting to fall for his gambit (albeit not voting him quite yet)...so I decided to wait for the one person that actually agreed with Jack and found him town to take advantage of being the "smart guy who knows whats up and looks most town":

Post #31: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2489439, Espy comes into play. I didn't vote here because I wanted to see more reasoning.

Post #46: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2490168, I felt like this was a good enough time to act on my suspicions and to put some more pressure on him. I had a feeling like he felt like he made a mistake and he wanted to roll with his earlier statement to sound consistent...but failing in the process. vollkan wrapped it up quite nicely in his #48. Vibes and "thinking he knows what his role is"? Why didn't you just think of the obvious and feel like he was gambiting? This is a sort of "in the middle" viewpoint between thinking it's a gambit and falling for it that doesn't sit right with me.

Jack's vote on me (#54): This looks more townie than anything else, completely disregarding all other talk of "post restrictions" and all that jazz. He wanted more reaction out of me. I'm not really sure how to scale my suspicions on vollkan's number scale, but if I had to, I'd say it's a -3 type of post. /shrug. Nicol's reaction to his vote....is...well, I don't know. I'm leaning more towards a confused VT thinking that Jack's priorities are skewed. Neutral-townish tell to me.

Looker #59: Well, here you go. Also...I don't like most of the reasoning to what you're responding to...short but agreeable responses (scum's town-looking grace) and missing the obvious (especially on Jack's "post restriction") makes me feel like you're in the same boat as Espy, but not as deeply. You're the first one that asked me why I don't have reasoning in my votes....so I find that more townish as well in this case; it's gone on long enough to cause some people to start to wonder. I get a neutral tell from this post, but you're treading on thin ice...I mean I can SEE how a bussing convo can go between you and Espy and not be surprised by it. I do want to say that you saying that a2rudeboy's vote on himself is "bussing" does -not- sit right with me.

@Snake absolutely forgetting that RVS was over (#63): More of a newbie mistake than anything else. Completely null. If anyone had attacked him over this, I would have probably auto-voted the attacker.

The exchange from #82-#84: I'm somewhat confident that at this point, from my reads, one of you are scum and one of you are town. Not really sure which is which, and I'm still leaning towards Espy, but I can see how Espy:

1. can be the scapegoat in this case,
2. can just be legitimately screwing up as scum.

I'm not ready to make a clear cut decision on this quite yet. But I don't feel like you both are scum, and I don't really think you both are town.

Pom's #86: Eh......not really liking this vote. Call it a hunch. He wasn't really wishy-washy at all, just not very clear. Neutral-scummy.

My thoughts on Cooldog and a2 at this point: Somewhat townish...I like Cooldog more than a2, but that doesn't mean that I find a2 outright scummy. Pretty pro-active views on this game and not afraid to scumhunt. I don't agree with a2 saying that Espy and Jack are buddying up, but that might just be a disagreement on views.

Jack's #90: COMPLETELY anti-town, but I wouldn't say it's scummy...Jack is being Jack in this case, he likes to unnerve people. I will keep this post in mind, but I would not include this in a case on him, simple as that. At least, not yet. Anyway, Jack: Cut it the hell out, man.

Nero Cain's vote on me (#92): Another eh. You're more vocal than Looker was and I'm not sure if I like that, but once again, it's been going on long enough for anyone to start to get suspicious. If you had done this after my Espy vote, I probably would have voted you, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, especially since you're pretty persistent on it...but I don't like you're reasoning though. You're going to need more evidence than "I'm voting and going V/LA" to seriously build a case on me. Scummy-ish, so consider my eye on you.

Espy's #95: I don't like the fact that you're asking for questions...scummy post. I do that a lot as scum in order to psychologically gain everyone's trust. At this point, I'm definitely leaning towards you as scum, jack as town.

#107, #108 exchange: I'm not sure what to make of this for right now, but keeping my eye on it for later.

Jack voting for everyone is....again, just Jack being Jack, I think. I believe wholeheartedly that he's just town being REALLY anti-town and I'd wish that he'd stop. I don't really agree with his reads.

Now....the claims.

I believe the claims. All 4 of them.

What I'm THINKING is that there's a town+town combo and a town+scum combo. It'd be a bit too skewed towards Mafia to have two town+scum combos, and too bastardish-confusing to have two town+town combos. I would say my suspicion out of TNM, CKD, zwets and Pom: It would probably be Pom. Flying under the radar composure-wise. I would like zwet to post more. I also think the claim is VERY important for today and gives us a great deal of info.

So, here's my wrap-up:

There's zwet vs. Pom: I believe Pom is scum here.
Jack vs. Espy: I believe Espy is scum.
CKD and TNM: Both are town.
Vollkan looks somewhat town to me.
Snake....I'm not sure yet. I've got my eye on him.
Cooldog is townish, a2, not so much, but still alright.
Horrordude's okay.
Nicol...I want to see him post more.
NC: Somewhat scummy but I'm not going to be bold enough to point my hand towards him, but I feel like I want to see more from him.

I would be comfortable with an Espy or Pom lynch for today. I'm not going to get ahead of myself and post a full 4 or 5 person scumlist when it's not quite needed.

[PranaDevil]

horrordude, to respond to your post, I can't actually state exactly why I was more cautious about a quick lynch without being mod killed, as the game it relates to is ongoing. When that game finished I'll be happy to explain my reasoning more thoroughly. But how is me saying I am happy to vote someone, but am avoiding a potential quick lynch scummy? It's a bit of a stretch as if I said that about someone and they flipped town then I would expect to be under as much suspicion as those who were on the lynch anyway.

Vollkan, something you said needs a response that I haven't seen given yet, and that's this:

You jump from Jack's play being anti-town (and, frankly, I can't see how his weird voting roulette thing is anti-town) to him being scum with Esp. What's your path of reasoning there?

You say you can't see how his moronic voting is anti-town, but to that end then, how is it pro-town?

I'd also note that he's basically voted everyone and taken to claiming every vote on him thereafter is an OMGUS vote. Why are you just farting about Jack? Are you not interested in lynching scum?

Regarding the claims, I'm not entirely sure I believe we have two pairs of joint vigs out there. That would be three kills a night, meaning in the span of two days we could be 8 town down and that's it, pretty much game over. If it turns out they ARE both pro-town, then you've basically told the scum where to begin their targetting (the second claim was even stupider because you could have flown well under the radar with that one).

Also, can one of the partners tell me their exact role name. Don't paraphrase the role name, state it exactly as it's written (and thus how it would show up with the flip).

[Espeonage]

Yeah I don't think Pom and I are scum together. You could argue bussing but tipping point is a stupid vote to bus on. I reckon that the scum there is either zwet or TNM if your theory on the alignment of the neighbour pairs is correct.

[DemonHybrid]

Yeah I don't think Pom and I are scum together. You could argue bussing but tipping point is a stupid vote to bus on. I reckon that the scum there is either zwet or TNM if your theory on the alignment of the neighbour pairs is correct.

Don't preach to me on what constitutes a good vote then pin the blame on who I outwardly expressed as town.

I feel even more confident at this point.

[Pomegranate]

How interesting. I have CKD's role as well, but with Pomegranate.

Zwets, you shouldn't have claimed. However, now that you have, I will confirm that this is true.

[DemonHybrid]

Also, can one of the partners tell me their exact role name. Don't paraphrase the role name, state it exactly as it's written (and thus how it would show up with the flip).

I, too, would like to know this, to follow up.