Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[DemonHybrid]

LOL. neighbors with vig shots. Why the heck did you guys claimed?
If you are town you did very bad because the scum may no kill and get a nice little bunch of WIFOM.
This claim is like what scum means.
I believe they are scum running a gambit. Let's kill one of them and see what happens.

unvote vote CKD

Yes, 4 scum have decided to take the ultimate risk and out themselves if one of them gets killed, therefore making the worst play in mafia history. Once again, vezok, you need to twist your head on straight.

Jeez, at least if we're going to kill one, lets kill Pomegranate.

[vezokpiraka]

Well no.
They claimed neighbors and if we kill one of them and he flips scum they will just say it was a scum in their group.

[DemonHybrid]

And like I said in my theory a while back (I hope you've read pretty thoroughly...) that it'd be absolutely bastardly of the mod to make two scum-scum combos and two town-town combos. Town-scum and town-town seems reasonable. Now, which one of those 4 are the most scummy?

Take a look back: here's CKD who's hanging onto the mystery of the shot-count for dear life. Do you think that's scummy, to not give that information over to scum when town doesn't need it now, or townly? He's also pretty brash and proactive this game, provoking those who want to screw up whatever plan he has.

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and soft-defended by Espy (someone who REALLY should be lynched either now or later). She is also one of the neighbors (who never wanted to be outed, by the way; I've been in plenty of games where scum neighbors did not want to be outed), which gives her just as much of a chance of being scum as CKD does but is more likely due to composure differences.

Now, who do you go for?

[DemonHybrid]

I'm very sure that if one of the neighbors flipped scum, they'd be a "Mafia whatever whatever Neighbor". Also bastardly to keep that flip info from us.

[Espeonage]

Trust Vezok to throw a spanner in the works.

Now this is why I would prefer to lynch zwet. Because the second pair could be running a gambit.

[vollkan]

This Jack/Espy fiasco: I felt like Jack was acting too scummy for his own good...a meta check with Jack shows that he likes early-game gambits, hence his talk on the post restriction. Reaction fishing. So I waited and thought about putting pressure on Prana, but I noticed that a LOT of people were starting to fall for his gambit (albeit not voting him quite yet)...so I decided to wait for the one person that actually agreed with Jack and found him town to take advantage of being the "smart guy who knows whats up and looks most town":

I've been consistently saying that I see nothing wrong in the way Jack's playing. The only obvious difference I can see between myself and Espy in this respect is that he called Jack "town" - which I disagree with; I see Jack's play as null. But that doesn't seem to be the crux of your Espy case here.

My thoughts on Cooldog and a2 at this point: Somewhat townish...

Why?

You say you can't see how his moronic voting is anti-town, but to that end then, how is it pro-town?

It's a legitimate information gathering tool (note: I have my own history of deliberately self-voting to provoke reactions). Jack's moronic is similar as voting stupidly is really only anti-town if the risk of it increasingly your own lynch outweighs the likely information gain.

FWIW, self-voting is probably more dangerous than moronic voting. Reason being that it tends to be newbies who think it is scummy (plenty of experienced people think it's a bad tactic, but not scummy) and newbies are also the type most likely to get tunnel-visioned. That's actually the reason I tend not to do it so much - because more often than not it just acts a way of distinguishing newbs from experienced players, which is useless gamewise, and getting newbs tunneling me, which is highly counterproductive

I'd also note that he's basically voted everyone and taken to claiming every vote on him thereafter is an OMGUS vote. Why are you just farting about Jack? Are you not interested in lynching scum?

What he's doing is obviously a joke

I'm not saying I like the way he is playing, but it isn't scummy. (NB: I find Jack's playstyle exceptionally hard to read, so me saying it "isn't scummy" doesn't even mean I think it is null - just that I literally can't get an informed opinion easily.

Regarding the claims, I'm not entirely sure I believe we have two pairs of joint vigs out there. That would be three kills a night, meaning in the span of two days we could be 8 town down and that's it, pretty much game over. If it turns out they ARE both pro-town, then you've basically told the scum where to begin their targetting (the second claim was even stupider because you could have flown well under the radar with that one).

This is a good point.

That many NKs would make this game insanely swingy

Pom is somewhat scummy

The above is

somewhat

extremely vague.

Why do none of these claimed neighbors want to actually list their exact role name? Got something to hide?

Paired players who can communicate at night and have a shared kill. What could they

possibly

have to hide?

if you knew you would understand....my neighbor and I are vig-like..not vigs....I dont need to tell you if we are two shot, unlimited shot, etc...i dont need to tell you any other part of the mechanic, which is in the name...so no, it is not pro-town...so back the fuck off....if you think i am scummy for not telling you..vote me or move on.

I'm willing to accept this. If the role name gives away mechanics that could be anti-town, it shouldn't be claimed.

UNVOTE: VOTE: curiouskarmadog
Do you propose we lynch you or totallynotmafia?

If claiming the role name would be anti-town, do you think he should claim it?

LOL. neighbors with vig shots. Why the heck did you guys claimed?
If you are town you did very bad because the scum may no kill and get a nice little bunch of WIFOM.
This claim is like what scum means.
I believe they are scum running a gambit. Let's kill one of them and see what happens.

unvote vote CKD

1) Even if it was anti-town, that doesn't make it scummy
2) WTF does "This claim is like what scum means" mean?
3) You have absolutely NO evidence to support your "belief" that they are gambiting scum.
4) "Let's kill one of them and see what happens" Oh FFS

Vezok+2

Note: The only reason Vezok isn't getting more scumpoints is my meta of him. Ongoing game so I cannot give analysis but I can point you to the game, where I have recently seen town-Vezok be lynched.

[Espeonage]

Vezok is one of the hardest people to read. But from my (two? I think. I lose track.) game(s) with Vezok this is fairly town.

[CooLDoG]

Sorry I need to catch up, I am a little behind in this game I might be able to post later today. If there is anything you need to ask me post it again in case I don't get a chance to read it. I have to run now.

[curiouskarmadog]

Well, let me put it to you this way...if my partner is scum, scum know exactly what I am hiding and WHY I AM HIDING IT.

they will try to put together any bullshit case to kill me, so they wont have to tonight. An example?....both looker and Vezo vote me, yet there are "4 neighbors total"..why is that? becuase I am the only one getting heat. Also, I brought this to everyone's attention and didnt sit on it, yet I am getting called scummy?

[curiouskarmadog]

unvote vote looker....

i have yet to see a game where vezo is anything other than a VI...his unthought out vote is a null tell...i would be surprised if he has even read the game

still think pdevil is scummy, but on afterthought, scum would not be fishing....they would already know my/our role if they are scum in my neighborhood...so he could be scum hunting or he might be scum not in my neighborhood.

but looker, just voted for no reason (after calling down pdevil for his post) has really stood out.

and to answer your question looker....i dont know what pom/zwet have, thus why i asked zwet a question about it....but imagine they share some of our mechanics/role.

I also wouldnt be surprised if there were MORE sets of neighbors out there....our neighborhood is named....

which reminds me, Jack, is the "PR" you are looking for have anything to do with language (not english)?

[Pomegranate]

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and soft-defended by Espy (someone who REALLY should be lynched either now or later). She is also one of the neighbors (who never wanted to be outed, by the way; I've been in plenty of games where scum neighbors did not want to be outed), which gives her just as much of a chance of being scum as CKD does but is more likely due to composure differences.

When exactly did I defend Espy?

And I should have WANTED to out myself?

[Seraphim]

"This is a triumph. Making a note here, huge success!"

Vote Count

NicolBolas(0) -

Jack(4)

– NicolBolas, PranaDevil, SnakePlissken, Nero Cain
vezokpiraka(0) -

curiouskarmadog(2)

– Looker, vezokpiraka
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215(1)

- Stef

Espeonage(6)

– vollkan, DemonHybrid, horrordude0215, CooLDoG, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate
vollkan(0) -
CooLDoG(0) -

Nero Cain(1)

- Jack

zwetschenwasser(1)

- Espeonage
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker(2)

– zwetschenwasser, curiouskarmadog
SnakePlissken(0) -
PranaDevil(0) -
DemonHybrid(0) –
totallynotmafia(0) -

Not Voting(1)

- totallynotmafia

With 18 alive, it is 10 to lynch
Deadline: September 16, 2010, 12:00 pm, Central Time

totallynotmafia is probably going to get replaced.
a2rudeboy has been prodded
NicolBolas has been prodded
Stef has been prodded

[Pomegranate]

"This is a triumph. Making a note here, huge success!"

For once, I actually know what's being referenced!

[PranaDevil]

Okay... thinking things over now I've read what's been said, and here's how I stand:

I accept Jack's been making a play, it's a crappy play by all rights, but checking over it, I will agree it doesn't make him scummy by that alone (that's not to say he isn't scum, but now Vollkan has pointed out it's a gambit I can see where it is coming from, as I do like strange gambits in the early play as well). So I'll buy Jack as town for the time being.

Esp I'm less happy about, it's possible he's pulling another gambit, but it sort of feels like he may have tried tagging onto Jack's gambit to gain points from him, but I'll leave him for now.

The 4 vig-likes... there's a chance one is scum, but if the role name does state how many shots they have or whatever, then holding off announcing it is worthwhile (and I'd advise any docs randomly pick one of them to protect just to be safe), though I would hope people realize where I was coming from with wanting to find out the role name (namely if the role name states there is two of them, rather then one, the claim wasn't needed anyway).

I still don't like that there was a claim, but unlike Vezo I can see that announcing 4 scum as joint vigs would be a terrible play as it only needs two of them to get offed to prove that the rest have to be scum (and if we lynched one today then it wouldn't take long for all 4 to go down). So at best one of those 4 is scum. (I actually think them all being town would be overpowered for the town too, so I feel it's more inclined to be one as scum, or even the second group tagging onto the original claim, as I still stand by that 3 kills a night could destroy the town before the town actually get a chance to truly scum hunt).

Anyway, at the moment Vezo has been bugging me but I can't quite put my finger on it just yet. Need to look over him closer in the next day or two.

For the moment though.

unvote

Will have a quick look over later if I have chance to see if anything stands out.

[DemonHybrid]

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and

soft-defended by Espy

(someone who REALLY should be lynched either now or later). She is also one of the neighbors (who never wanted to be outed, by the way; I've been in plenty of games where scum neighbors did not want to be outed), which gives her just as much of a chance of being scum as CKD does but is more likely due to composure differences.

When exactly did I defend Espy?

And I should have WANTED to out myself?

You misread again...

And you were pretty hesitant after you were outed to confirm based on the composure of your post.

I'll reply to voll later.

[DemonHybrid]

This Jack/Espy fiasco: I felt like Jack was acting too scummy for his own good...a meta check with Jack shows that he likes early-game gambits, hence his talk on the post restriction. Reaction fishing. So I waited and thought about putting pressure on Prana, but I noticed that a LOT of people were starting to fall for his gambit (albeit not voting him quite yet)...so I decided to wait for the one person that actually agreed with Jack and found him town to take advantage of being the "smart guy who knows whats up and looks most town":

I've been consistently saying that I see nothing wrong in the way Jack's playing. The only obvious difference I can see between myself and Espy in this respect is that he called Jack "town" - which I disagree with; I see Jack's play as null. But that doesn't seem to be the crux of your Espy case here.

I mean, call me a metaholic, but at first I found Jack to be null based on past play, but I'm leaning heavily in favor of it being a town vs scum exchange. My read on Jack is based solely off of my read on Espy.

My thoughts on Cooldog and a2 at this point: Somewhat townish...

Why?

He's more of a hunch to me at this point; he's been pretty challenging to scummy views and pretty thirsty for information. I don't really want to focus on him too much for Day 1, but I know that that could very well change in the future.

[DemonHybrid]

Alright, I'm doing some thinking (sorry for the triple post)

As far as the neighbor vigilantes, I do agree we need to learn more about them.

So here's what I propose: Auto-lynch Espy tomorrow, lynch Pom today. Two mis-read statements show nervousness/lack of care in this game among her other traits. I WILL however switch to Espy to hammer if he's L-1...it's not ideal at this point with the claims, but if I have the chance to kill scum, you know that I'd be damn willing to do it. Pom needs more pressure anyway.

Unvote, Vote: Pomegranate

[Espeonage]

I agree that we should lynch one of the meighbours and that it should be from the second pair. But I think it should be zwet other than Pom. It was unneccessary for him to claim. He could be jumping on to the townieness in which case both are scum or he claimed because he is the scum member of the pair when the town half wouldn't claim in that position unless they were stupid. I hardly think zwet is stupid (yet) and so I think he would be better to lynch than Pom.

[a2rudeboy]

prod pick up.

doing a read.

[DemonHybrid]

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and

soft-defended by Espy

I agree that we should lynch one of the meighbours and that it should be from the second pair. But I think it should be zwet other than Pom. It was unneccessary for him to claim. He could be jumping on to the townieness in which case both are scum or he claimed because he is the scum member of the pair when the town half wouldn't claim in that position unless they were stupid. I hardly think zwet is stupid (yet) and so I think he would be better to lynch than Pom.

Yeah, okay.

I think it was very necessary to claim, especially when they're neighbors and not masons.

[DemonHybrid]

Now this is why I would prefer to lynch zwet. Because the second pair could be running a gambit.

Oh, and this little gem, too.

Uh oh, you made a contradiction!

[Espeonage]

How so?

[DemonHybrid]

If I'm understanding this right, you are meaning a gambit as in two scum running with the idea of vig-neighbors without actually being them. Maybe I assumed that wrong but that's what a gambit means to me if you think -both- of them are in on it.

If you then say that you believe they ARE neighbors and Pom is innocent/zwet is guilty, that's a complete 180 of your past views.

[Espeonage]

I'm saying that they COULD be running a gambit and they COULD just be neighbours. But either way zwet is a better lynch infowise for the reasons I stated.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm saying that they COULD be running a gambit and they COULD just be neighbours. But either way zwet is a better lynch infowise for the reasons I stated.

Those are two wildly different views. Throwing them around like this is wishy-washy IMO. How can you be SO sure of Pom being town and believe that they both could be scum running a gambit?

You kinda have to choose one or the other here. Which is it?