Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[Espeonage]

Both. It hardly matters. Either wat zwet is the best lynch.

[vezokpiraka]

DH or espy is scum. I believe espy is the scum because DH cares about himself more.

unvote
Vote Espy

Although I still want a neighbor flip.

[DemonHybrid]

DH or espy is scum. I believe espy is the scum because DH cares about himself more.
unvote
Vote Espy
Although I still want a neighbor flip.

I'm not sure what you mean about "caring about myself" more. Explain further.

[horrordude0215]

Now, which one of those

4

are the most scummy?

Take a look back: here's CKD who's hanging onto the mystery of the shot-count for dear life. Do you think that's scummy, to not give that information over to scum when town doesn't need it now, or townly? He's also pretty brash and proactive this game, provoking those who want to screw up whatever plan he has.

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and soft-defended by Espy (someone who REALLY should be lynched either now or later). She is also one of the neighbors (who never wanted to be outed, by the way; I've been in plenty of games where scum neighbors did not want to be outed), which gives her just as much of a chance of being scum as CKD does but is more likely due to composure differences.

Now, who do you go for?

This seems a bit unfairly balanced to me... First you say you're going to compare ALL of the neighbors, and then you only talk about two of them, clearly favoring one over the other.

Unvote

for now... Esp has answered the questions I wanted him to already.

[DemonHybrid]

TNM hasn't said a word and zwet is alright in my opinion. I only mentioned CKD vs Pom here because vezok was voting for CKD.

[horrordude0215]

zwet is alright in my opinion.

I would love to know how you reached this conclusion... the only thing that I can get from zwet's ISO is that he outed the other vig group and has done absolutely nothing else. How is that "alright"?

Vote: Zwet

[DemonHybrid]

He claimed and forced Pom to. Other than that, he's had an RVS vote.

He certainly isn't top of the list scummy and until he posts more, I can assume nothing of him. Therefore, he's -alright-.

[horrordude0215]

He claims when he should have obviously stayed quiet, provided absolutely no content all game, kept his RVS vote on instead of removing it or trying to find reasons for it, and lurks, but he's still -alright-. I'm gonna have to disagree with you there

[DemonHybrid]

He claims when he should have obviously stayed quiet, provided absolutely no content all game, kept his RVS vote on instead of removing it or trying to find reasons for it, and lurks, but he's still -alright-. I'm gonna have to disagree with you there

You know that I'm not putting him at the top of my town list. I just don't think he's the lynch for today. Agree to disagree, no?

[horrordude0215]

Well he's my vote for now until I can get time to look at everyone extensively. We'll agree to disagree, sure.

[Seraphim]

Stef has informed me that he has been having difficulties with his account which is the explanation behind his absence.
totallynotmafia is getting replaced.

[Pomegranate]

Here's Pomegranate, who's been under the radar, passive in her views and

soft-defended by Espy

(someone who REALLY should be lynched either now or later). She is also one of the neighbors (who never wanted to be outed, by the way; I've been in plenty of games where scum neighbors did not want to be outed), which gives her just as much of a chance of being scum as CKD does but is more likely due to composure differences.

When exactly did I defend Espy?

And I should have WANTED to out myself?

You misread again...

And you were pretty hesitant after you were outed to confirm based on the composure of your post.

I'll reply to voll later.

Sorry, my bad, I did misread (but I don't think that it's the second time... It's possible, whatever).

Also, you're saying that I'm scummy because I was (soft-)defended by scum (Espy), but you're voting me, and not Espy. How does that make a shred of sense?

Um, hesitant? I said that I confirm that what Zwets claimed is true in the first post I made after his claim; the wording was clear enough.

Your case is full of fail, and you're misrepresenting me. Don't call it OMGUS, but I find you pushing such a lame case (if even that) is scummy in itself.

I got my eye on you DH.

[DemonHybrid]

Read this, Pom.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p2497095

it's not ideal at this point with the claims, but if I have the chance to kill scum, you know that I'd be damn willing to do it. Pom needs more pressure anyway.

I agree with vezok on one thing: That it would probably be wise to see whether or not the neighborvigwhatever claims are truth or not. Now, I think CKD holding onto his shot count is pro-town, but I don't think that letting that information go would really HURT the town that badly. Therefore, I believe the info we can gain by seeing what the big deal is with this role far surpasses the harm that knowing the shot-count will do to us.

Plus, I do have that town-town town-scum theory.

I never said I don't suspect Espy as much; I still suspect him more than anyone else. I, however, believe that you are scum too and that the information that you would give us in your flip as scum would help us out FAR more at this stage in the game than Espy's. You also aren't scummy -just- because Espy defended you. Regardless, I would be voting Espy still if no one had claimed. I will hammer him if he's L-1, because I do want to kill scum, no matter who it is; it won't be

ideal

, but scum is scum.

And yeah, you were hesitant; you outwardly expressed disdain towards Zwet forcing you to claim. I've seen plenty of scum neighbors go "Oh man...well I didn't want to claim, but sure, I'm a neighbor with X." Usually, they're neighborizers or neighbors from the start of the game. Town would want that information out in the open; scum wouldn't.

Don't worry; No OMGUS harping from me. I do want to know what it is about my posts thus far this game, my style and my reasoning that you find scummy if you wish to label me as scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

I want TNM's replacement's thoughts on this whole situation when he/she comes in.

[Pomegranate]

And yeah, you were hesitant; you outwardly expressed disdain towards Zwet forcing you to claim. I've seen plenty of scum neighbors go "Oh man...well I didn't want to claim, but sure, I'm a neighbor with X." Usually, they're neighborizers or neighbors from the start of the game. Town would want that information out in the open; scum wouldn't.

You're right that I wasn't pleased that I had to claim. I don't see how that't anything but a nulltell, and I disagree that town would want the claimed information out in the open.

Would you have claimed D1 if you were in the same position as CKD, or me (etc.)?

[DemonHybrid]

Yep. Neighbors are a good D1 claim, especially knowing that "neighbors" imply that almost always one or a few of them are scum, therefore you can out them pretty easily.

Read my wiki and look over Soraville; that's a good example of my experience with neighbors.

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP: Explaining further, if they were all town "Masons", I would completely agree with you, but Neighbors are a

completely

different ballgame.

[Pomegranate]

EBWOP: Explaining further, if they were all town "Masons", I would completely agree with you, but Neighbors are a

completely

different ballgame.

Neighbors with vig kills are also

completely

different ball games.

[DemonHybrid]

Doesn't change the fact that they're neighbors.

[DemonHybrid]

Pom, you're lacking a desire to lynch scum here. That's what's making me so uneasy between our back and forth. If you know that outing neighbors basically narrows scum down to 1 or 2 of four people, then why WOULDN'T you be for it, even

with

vig kills?

[Pomegranate]

Pom, you're lacking a desire to lynch scum here. That's what's making me so uneasy between our back and forth. If you know that outing neighbors basically narrows scum down to 1 or 2 of four people, then why WOULDN'T you be for it, even

with

vig kills?

1. In a game like this, I would not say that 1 or 2 out of the 4 are scum- not to outguess the mod, but that is very predictable, and had I designed a setup with neighbors like these, I wouldn't necessarily have proportioned it like that.

2. I'm not lacking the desire to lynch scum- but I am giving the neighbors the same chance of being scum as any other player at this point.

3. The part about vig kills was me saying that I wasn't thrilled to claim because of them, so I don't get your point bringing it up here.

[DemonHybrid]

1. Really? So you think that, out of 18 people (and if scum usually comprises of 1/4 people, we'll say 4 and maybe a third party), there could be 4 town neighbors? That would be out of 13ish town. I would assume half of those or at little more than half are VTs, so we'll say 6 VTs to be generous. That leaves 6 power roles. That would mean that 2/3 of these power roles are neighbor vigiliantes. That sounds ridiculous and I'm sure that you'll agree.)

Now, on the flip side, if there are 4 scum neighbor-vigs, that would comprise of all of the scum, or 4/5 if there are 5 scum instead of a third party. That also sounds ridiculous. Same goes for 3 scum: 3/4 of mafia are neighborvigs.

So, it sounds like you're trying to discredit logical thinking to debunk an argument that I have. Or would you agree after seeing the numbers?

2. That wasn't my point. If you know my point 1 of this post is valid and logical, then you'd know that there would be 1-2 scum in these neighborvig combinations. If you out the neighbors, then you have drastically narrowed down where one or two of the scum might be, then you can pick and choose from those 4. You were trying to prevent that and are arguing that it's not such a great idea, therefore it's a lack of desire to lynch scum.

3. Here's an example of that lack of desire to lynch scum. I would think that killing mafia would by far and away trump outing a simple mechanic like a vig shot to most townies. Even if so: you shouldn't have anything to worry about because if mafia chose to kill the town neighborvigs, the chance to find the scum that I mentioned earlier in point 2 would be

drastically

heightened. So why does this bother you so much?

[DemonHybrid]

By the way, the thought of 2 scum gambiting is ridiculous to me just by the way that others have claimed. It would be an astronomically low chance for CKD and TNM to be scum that aren't neighborvigs. The chance to be able to guess that role and have Zwet respond with the same claim is absolutely ludicrously low.

Now, there's a chance of Zwet and Pom gambiting is low, but I'm banking that mostly on Pom's reactions to the claim. Even if so, it would be wise to lynch BOTH Pom and Zwet due to the fact that the chance that they might be gambiting (or at least -lying-) is much higher than Claimed Neighborvigs Team #1 would be. MUCH MUCH higher.

[DemonHybrid]

Oops, gotta fix something:

"That leaves 7 power roles."

[Pomegranate]

1. Really? So you think that, out of 18 people (and if scum usually comprises of 1/4 people, we'll say 4 and maybe a third party), there could be 4 town neighbors?

That would be out of 13ish town. I would assume half of those or at little more than half are VTs, so we'll say 6 VTs to be generous. That leaves 6 power roles. That would mean that 2/3 of these power roles are neighbor vigiliantes. That sounds ridiculous and I'm sure that you'll agree

.)

Now, on the flip side, if there are 4 scum neighbor-vigs, that would comprise of all of the scum, or 4/5 if there are 5 scum instead of a third party. That also sounds ridiculous. Same goes for 3 scum: 3/4 of mafia are neighborvigs.

So, it sounds like you're trying to discredit logical thinking to debunk an argument that I have. Or would you agree after seeing the numbers?

2. That wasn't my point. If you know my point 1 of this post is valid and logical, then you'd know that there would be 1-2 scum in these neighborvig combinations. If you out the neighbors, then you have drastically narrowed down where one or two of the scum might be, then you can pick and choose from those 4. You were trying to prevent that and are arguing that it's not such a great idea, therefore it's a lack of desire to lynch scum.

3. Here's an example of that lack of desire to lynch scum. I would think that killing mafia would by far and away trump outing a simple mechanic like a vig shot to most townies. Even if so: you shouldn't have anything to worry about because if mafia chose to kill the town neighborvigs, the chance to find the scum that I mentioned earlier in point 2 would be

drastically

heightened. So why does this bother you so much?

You do convince me of some points in this post. Let me see...

1. I'm not saying that it's not likely that there's one mafiate in there- it is, I guess- but I wouldn't assume it. Also, as far as the bolded part goes, check out something I found on Seraphim's wiki page:

I have decided to commit myself to a mission: games that combine complicated, mostly no-vanilla setups along with mechanics that favor scumhunting to create games that generate interest in both phases.

I think that that would put your calculation as to the number of VTs and PRs all off.

2. If the point 1 above is logical, then therefore my original point 2 is still logical, IMO.

3. I am a bit confused (and I feel like I proved my point well enough by now).

HOWEVER: I'm not saying that there necessarily are no scum within the two pairs of neighborvigs.