/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Herodotus]

UNVOTE: Zoraster
VOTE: Papa Z

[VasudeVa]

@Vas

: Could you provide the latecomer with a clear and concise case for why you're not scum and Sereph is?

Hello-not-reading-the-thread. Other people have explained it far better than I did and this question has been getting old. Basically: Seraphim has been pushing the argument that I've been coached to play like a VI to not get vigged. I mean, read below:

My counter-argument: I think that the scum team either figured that VV would be less likely of a vig target if he acted like he did now, playing up the VI aspect of his play and trying to convince people of that aspect, or that VV was expendable.

This is stupid because its stupid.

[Patrick]

Votecount

VasudeVa (4) -- Seraphim, ooba, SpyreX, AdumbroDeus
ooba (1) -- Papa Zito
DrippingGoofball (2) -- mith, Elmo
Seraphim (1) -- My Milked Eek
zoraster (7) -- DrippingGoofball, Ellibereth, VasudeVa, Kmd4390, ekiM, Plumegranate, Rhinox
Papa Zito (1) -- Herodotus

Not voting: zoraster
17 alive, 9 to lynch.

Deadline: 11th of September, 6 am GMT.

[DrippingGoofball]

UNVOTE: Zoraster
VOTE: Papa Z

'splain?

[Elmo]

The way this zoraster wagon took off is weird but I definitely can't complain, per se.
Bleah, more tomorrow, hopefully.

[Kmd4390]

My post didn't go through?

Any coaching arguement about vas is just wrong. Acting like a VI would make him vig bait. The arguement that he'd be coached to play better makes no sense because you don't just turn on a "play better" switch. No matter what his buddies tell him, his play won't change too drastically.

[zoraster]

So I've done each player, but each is a fairly brief discussion.

DrippingGoofball

I won’t spend much time here talking about DGB. She’s scummy, and I suspect anyone who’s not on coast should feel at least a bit uncomfortable with the way she’s playing

ekiM

I think ekim comes across as pretty townish. The pressure he applies seems natural, even when it’s wrong.

Ellibereth

Somewhat Scummy. He puts pressure on Vas while saying that he thinks Vas is town. That’s fine, but he plays it off as, “You’re making yourself look bad here Vas” So I don’t know what the point is other than to seem “fair and balanced.” Still, not top of my list.

Elmo

As town as they come.

Herodotus

I don’t get the concern on him at all. I like his analysis. I think a KMD lynch could actually sort out some of the concern. If KMD really is all about vote analysis, I tend to agree with Herod. It would be a bizarre play as town. That said, I’m not thrilled about his push to get VV to summarize his meta. It’s my opinion that if you start a case using meta against another player (or as a defense), fine, but the onus is on you to provide the work involved.

Kmd4390

Scummy. He would be my second choice for a lynch. First, he has read Elmo as scum, which seems unfathomable to me if you’re being honest. Second, he’s playing very cagey style that seems pretty scumm to me. Third, if Herod is right about his vote analysis, then he should have wanted to avoid the jan at all costs

mith

I’m pretty undecided on mith. He’s playing the reasonable man part, which is good, but it’s not coming across as terribly town to me either.

My Milked Eek

Hard to make any read on him at all. Whether you think I’ve posted content or not, MME has posted even less

Ooba

Yeah his initial scum list was in itself pretty scummy and pretty disingenuous, but since then his play hasn’t been particularly scummy – though perhaps a little light

Papa Zito

Taking on troll was weird. I lean town on him actually, but I don’t feel particularly passionate about it.

Plumegranate

I think the fruit women have gotten a little lazy. I lean scum on them, but as in PZ, I’m not passionate about it.

Rhinox

The Rhinox/Seraphim thing feels like two people on the same side fighting.

Seraphim (replacing Slicey)

Seraphim feels like a frustrated town, but town nonetheless.

SpyreX

First a disclaimer: I’m not good at reading SpyreX. I tend to think he’s town in all my games: even games where I’m the mod and he’s scum. But he comes across as town to me.

VasudeVa

Overwhelmed scum. Not happy about being scum, but doing his best to play it. That’s my read on him.

AdumbroDeus (replacing Zorblag)

Town due to Zorblag’s play

[Kmd4390]

so you think...I guessed that elmo killed amished and was right or...? What am I missing here?

[zoraster]

so you think...I guessed that elmo killed amished and was right or...? What am I missing here?

What do you mean?

[Patrick]

Papa Zito has asked for replacement in response to a prod. I'm looking.

[mith]

Surely if zoraster is scum, he would be aware of the Kmd/Elmo situation (via quicktopic if nothing else). But on the other hand, surely if zoraster were town and thought the Elmo situation were worth discussing, and had been told

why

it wasn't being discussed, he would

go read the relevant portions of the thread

.

This is even more detached from reality than the pre-V/LA My Milked Eek post. Ignorance is probably about as (un)likely either way, but add the possibility that he's scum playing dumb and it's yet another point against him. Nothing about that post reassures me about zoraster (still not much of a DGB case, nor a vote; the "I'm more active than MME!" comment; more "eh?" moments with Herodotus - what concern? - and "Rhinox/Seraphim"...).

zoraster: Claim.

UNVOTE: DrippingGoofball
VOTE: zoraster (L-1)

[zoraster]

Surely if zoraster is scum, he would be aware of the Kmd/Elmo situation (via quicktopic if nothing else). But on the other hand, surely if zoraster were town and thought the Elmo situation were worth discussing, and had been told

why

it wasn't being discussed, he would

go read the relevant portions of the thread

.

This is even more detached from reality than the pre-V/LA My Milked Eek post. Ignorance is probably about as (un)likely either way, but add the possibility that he's scum playing dumb and it's yet another point against him. Nothing about that post reassures me about zoraster (still not much of a DGB case, nor a vote; the "I'm more active than MME!" comment; more "eh?" moments with Herodotus - what concern? - and "Rhinox/Seraphim"...).

zoraster: Claim.

UNVOTE: DrippingGoofball
VOTE: zoraster (L-1)

What a load of horsehockey. You ask me to read effing 30 pages of stuff and come up with a post on every person (you being whoever was asking -- elli and DGB in particular). I have done that. If you don't particularly like it, so be it. I'm not particularly detached from the game. I've read each and every person as carefully as I can manage. If you're not particularly interested in that read, that's fine. But to simply yell "detached!" without actually elaborating why (you have made no effort to say what the relevant posts are. there are a lot. It's not just me not wanting to delve in, it's not having a clue what you're actually talking about) is ridiculous.

By the by, take notice that what mith is actually attempting to do is discredit my reads. I think we're all pretty sure I'm getting lynched here -- that's fine, it's even understandable. But mith's post isn't really about that. It's about trying to take any venom from the reads. Take from that what you will.

Oh, and I claim vanilla.

And please, mith. Not voting DGB? I haven't exactly been shy about it in the past. I just wanted to actually get caught up and actually post something further before voting again. But whatever. You say it like that should be in some what damning. In some situations not voting a player can be. But when a player is far from a lynch later in the game and the person isn't trying to have it both ways (i.e. saying someone is scummy then not voting the person so that they get scum hunting points without actually being responsible), I don't know what you hope to cull from that.

But for you, princess:

VOTE: DGB

[Rhinox]

Zoraster, the problem is you called KMD scummy and your second choice for lynch, despite the fact that KMD has claimed tracker with a non-disputed result. Elmo was tracked to a kill (by KMD), and Elmo confirmed that result, so the only way KMD is scum is if BOTH KMD and Elmo are scum, or KMD took a random guess and got impossibly lucky. Since Elmo is "as town as they come", it really doesn't seem to make sense that you can call KMD scum. That was a pretty big point at the beginning of the day today, and kinda hard to just miss in a readthrough.

[DrippingGoofball]

By the by, take notice that what mith is actually attempting to do is discredit my reads.

You really think that? I mean, I'm his top choice for scum, and I'm yours too... how does that add up?

[Seraphim]

*sigh*

VasudeVa is going nowhere, man. "Too scummy to be scum" killed any sort of momentum the wagon had. Maybe I should look elsewhere and let the vig handle things. See if I can't bark up a different tree tomorrow and let things simmer for a while. I do agree with VasudeVa that, in retrospect, I've been tunneling waaaay too long on one player.

I'm willing to hammer zoraster. Looks to be a pretty decent lynch, far superior to ooba, especially with Zor not even reading the game.

[Kmd4390]

Oh crap. Zoraster is town and mith is scum.

unvote, vote vas

Do we have time to do this?

[Ellibereth]

unvote

[Ellibereth]

Zor, did you do that list via readthrough or iso>?

[Seraphim]

KMD, VERY interested as to the sudden turnabout. I know they say don't look a gift horse in the mouth but is there something I'm missing that indicates zoraster-town?

[Kmd4390]

Oh and because we don't have time for someone to ask what I'm talking about and then I explain, I'll do it now.

Mith just said that zoraster, if scum, should know from the QT about my claim. Then he goes on to vote zoraster saying that zoraster is playing dumb. It would make no sense for zoraster to do this. What advantage does he have? All it does is say his read of me is a scum one instead of town. How is that worth lying for? It isn't. Mith is looking for a reason to vote zoraster.

Edit: lol sera asked. To address you specifically, I think mith just wants to hop on. Maybe its a bus vote, but it looks scum-on-town at first glance.

[Seraphim]

Oh.

Oh.

OHHHHHHH.

Holy fucking shit.

What the long odds on a mith wagon you think?

[Ellibereth]

Oh crap. Zoraster is town and mith is scum.

unvote, vote vas

O.O
Not at the first one. That's fine.
But the second.

[VasudeVa]

KMD makes a lot of sense.

Vote: mith

[zoraster]

Zoraster, the problem is you called KMD scummy and your second choice for lynch, despite the fact that KMD has claimed tracker with a non-disputed result. Elmo was tracked to a kill (by KMD), and Elmo confirmed that result, so the only way KMD is scum is if BOTH KMD and Elmo are scum, or KMD took a random guess and got impossibly lucky. Since Elmo is "as town as they come", it really doesn't seem to make sense that you can call KMD scum. That was a pretty big point at the beginning of the day today, and kinda hard to just miss in a readthrough.

Simple explanation: I'm an idiot. In my defense, to my knowledge KMD has never actually outright claimed tracker, he just made statements of certainty. Regardless, it's something I should have caught, I suppose.

Zor, did you do that list via readthrough or iso>?

I did a readthrough a few days ago when I was catching up with the game, and then did the person-by-person analysis mostly by iso (sometimes checking the context for things).

[Seraphim]

It's also interesting that he plays off the discussion/argument between me and VV, refusing to take a definite stance and sitting on the fence until the general consensus emerged that VV was VI which really bugged me. He doesn't even say that he doesn't know which of us is town and which of us is scum, trying to play off both sides until the real consensus emerged, especially around where my wagon was picking up some steam.

He looked ready to jump on until other players started calling me obvtown.

if I decide in a few days that DGB won't be lynched, I will be switching to Seraphim unless something major affects my reads

but then zoraster comes along.

Though there is something interesting before we get too excited...zoraster seems at least somewhat aware of the elmo/KMD situation.

but are we completely leaving the elmo tajo thing alone?

I dunno.