/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[Sando]

I know the exact example you were meaning. Your speaking rubbish though, I was active in that game, and anyone who is seriously taking this argument into consideration I implore you to take a look into that game and see.

Yes, please do. I'm not trying to lynch you on meta though, I'm not even trying to lynch you right at the moment. I'm merely stating that there is an example of you playing this way as scum, Erg0 is saying you play this way as town, therefore it's null in my mind.

Over-react much?

[Porochaz]

Im not over reacting, I hate people who play the way you are suggesting and whilst Im having that problem right now with this game its not the way I usually play and its not the way I played in that game and Im really surprised your saying it. So I am obviously going to react.

[Erg0]

Erg0, you say that my point about Jack and Zajnet is a good one, yet don't include him in your likely scumteam? The reason I don't like it is because it's pretty classic distancing on your partner, it's exactly what I did in Karma mafia as scum, basically constantly say 'this guy is scum, but let's lynch this other guy', and you're all set when it comes to lynching them and you look pro-town when they flip.

What motivation do you see for Jack scum to do that to a townie, which Zaj would have to be for it to be me/Jack as the last 2 scum?

Sure it's a good point, but I also have what I think are good points that link you and Jack together. From the perspective of townSando, though, it's an

excellent

point, because townSando doesn't have to consider the alternative like I do.

As for why scumJack might target townZaj: Zaj's lurking makes him an easy target for scum to rest a vote on while they wait to see which lynch they should really go for. If Zaj ends up actually getting lynched then scumJack doesn't look bad because, hey, he was a lurker. By consistently calling Zaj scummy he can keep going back to him every day and repeat the cycle without looking like a fence-sitter.

Your distancing scenario is plausible as well, but I could still see Zaj as town and Jack as scum. I'm trying not to think

too

much about pairings right now, though - it's led me to take bad compromise lynches on more than one occasion in the past.

And Zaj, there's only 2 people discussing Zach at the moment, and one of us isn't even voting him, and hasn't actually contributed anything to the conversation about him being scummy, and yet you can't come up with anything original?

I assume you mean Jack (not Zach), in which case you should note that MoI has also made a case and voted for him.

Last Minute Edit: Good to see that Poro is still the Don Quixote of playstyles.

[Porochaz]

I dont understand the reference.

[Sando]

Noted, and yes I did mean Jack, I shouldn't post when stupidly late at night it seems...

[Incognito]

Vote Count #4 of Day 3

Zajnet (1) <-~ Jack
Sando (3) <-~ Porochaz, Locke Lamora, Sotty7
Locke Lamora (1) <-~ Sando
Jack (3) <-~ MagnaofIllusion, Erg0, Zajnet

Not voting (1) <-~ farside22

9 living; 5 will do it.

Deadline:

Tuesday, September 14th at 11 A.M. EST

[Erg0]

I dont understand the reference.

In this game and two others (ongoing) I've seen you trying to convince people that their playstyles are anti-town. I tend to take a live-and-let-live approach on the subject, because I've yet to see anybody be convinced to change their playstyle by anything other than consistently poor in-game results. Trying to change someone's playstyle by arguing with them about it is about as effective as tilting at windmills.

[Porochaz]

I hate the fact your right. However I still feel sando isn't accurate and I still maintain the right to get angry at vezok and ani

[Porochaz]

which I should point out quickly that that is a general gripe and not referencing an ongoing game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You quote me:

a) claiming you were guilty when you were not a town approved target
b) claiming the jason wagon was bad when he was to the town approved target
c) calling sando scum after one person jumped on them

In response –

A. You did so at the start of Day 2 when, if you are scum, you must have had some hope that I’d be run right up again since I was the counterwagon to Charlie. When it became apparent that this was not going to happen your change of heart occurs.
B. You did claim the Jason wagon was bad until it was inevitable. Are you suggesting this clears you somehow of bussing?
C. Let’s look at the time-line –

447 – Your first post of the Day for Zajnet once again.
453 – “Just vote for Zajnet” from you.
455 – Poro votes for Sando for his attack on vollkan
456 – farside questions Sotty about why not a vote on other lurkers like “zajnet or even Sando”
457 – Erg0’s partnership analysis post that sticks Sando as a candidate with little Jason / Zach interaction.
462 – Suddenly despite your Day 2 Town read on Sando suddenly he’s obvscum in review of his ISO.

Do you see how I find this sudden shift troublesome. Poro voted for him and farside and Erg0 make posts that indicate their possible suspicion of Sando.

If you are scum and Sando is scum with you I can certainly see you trying to bus him as early as possible given how your interaction with Jason looks for you.

If you are scum and Sando is town I can see you wanting to move to a more palatable mislynch given your Zajnet quest seems not to be taking off.

The fact that I can see motivations for your play as scum regardless of Sando’s alignment makes me believe (along with what I mention later) that you are a better lynch than Sando.

@Zajnet

re 515 – This makes my skin crawl. This sort of ‘support’ for Jack as a candidate actually gives him Town cred.

Its also not my meta. I now am doing it myself, self meta-ing doesn't work but I don't want to be known as the guy who lurks through games because generally Im not. People like farside and erg0 will be able to vouch for me on that one I hope.

If you have time to make multiple posts like this you have time to scum-hunt. As it is this is a perfect example of how to active lurk in a game.

Why I Don’t Think Sando Would Ignore his Partner as Scum –

My direct play experience with Sando as scum is
Weeds Mafia.

He was scum with Ooba and Konowa / Crywolf. I re-read the game. He bussed Ooba Day 1 when there was some chance he would be the lynch over McGriddle. He directly questions and interacts with ooba and Kowona to some degree. My personal experience says he would not ignore Jason if he was scum partners with him, especially given the heat Sotty applied to Zach / Jason Day 1.

[Erg0]

Given that Sando's scumteam lost that game, do you think he could have learned from it and changed his scum style? Do you recall whether scum interactions were a big part of the reason for Sando and ooba's lynches on the last two days?

[Zajnet]

@Zajnet

re 515 – This makes my skin crawl. This sort of ‘support’ for Jack as a candidate actually gives him Town cred.

So if I'm scum, Jack probably isn't. Cool, because I'm not scum.

[Sotty7]

MOI do you think Sando is likely town then?

This thread needs some Farside.

[Incognito]

Jack has been prodded.

[Jack]

unvote, vote:sando

Sorry for inactivity, interests elsewhere at the moment, etc.

[Incognito]

farside22 has been poked as her V/LA has ended.

[farside22]

Hey all. I got back last night but have not had time to get to read what I missed with work and family stuff going on.
I should have time a bit tomorrow morning if not when I get home from work from work tomorrow night to catch up.
If I have any time tonight I will try and do a bit of catch up.

[farside22]

doing a quick read of what I missed and reading Ergo. I wanted to respond to this comment made.

farside22: Mentions a couple of times on day 1 that Zach is too defensive/not scumhunting, but is largely positive towards him, agreeing with his opinions of Poro and Zaj. He wasn't on her scumlist in 107, and in 237 she criticises Locke's vote on him. She also says in 235 that jason's catchup post was good, then doesn't mention him again until 340, where she says that she finds jason scummy based on Zach's play and puts the third vote on his wagon. This seems like a reversal of her opinion on day 1, though she never really called Zach town. After that it's gung ho until the lynch, based largely on Sotty's meta read on Zach and jason's poor play under pressure. I've done these kind of switches before when I've suddenly realised that someone I was only semi-paying attention to is scummy, so I could see farside as town. Her third vote and subsequent push were pivotal in getting jason from a small wagon to a lynch, and her tone is generally very convincing.

I will admit at the very least I'm having difficulty some days and having to go back and reread things over and over. It was 10 times easier to play mafia when you could read something every few hours and have the time to do the research then it is now. I'm sure in some people's mind (cough poro) I'm more stick to my guns and aggressive as town but with 20 things going on in my head these day's I forget where I was at.
As for Sando something Ergo stated about ignoring Jason. I've never known scum to blantantly forget mentioning their scum buddies or having something to say about them even small.

Finally on to Jack. I have an issue I need to rectify and I need to research before I spill what I think as scum/town. I have this vague recall about him as scum as a game and I need to reread a game to see if I"m right first before point out any issue.
If I'm wrong about my thought process then it won't matter and I will get an insight into Jack as scum rereading a past game.

[farside22]

Okay so I looked into PYP2 because Jack was scum in that game and I recalled playing with him.
I had thought that he didn't buss his scum buddies but I was wrong. He actually interacted with them on many levels in the game and worked one as scum and the other town attacking another player to be part of the WIFOM.
Then back off of it.
This is completely different in this game where Jason has some accusations from others and he called it null then backed off.
My biggest issue is that Jack's main attack has been on Zaj. He stated he finds Sando scum but hasn't voted for him today like he stated he did and his attack feel off pretty quickly.
I could see in this case a Sando/Jack scum team based on this weak attack and back off with the continuing attack on lurker Zaj (who should just asked to be replaced if he can't keep up)

I still want to look at a few more people on my scum list before I vote anyone.

[Jack]

zaj is scum and I made a pretty solid case on him yesterday where he lied about his excuse for absence, but:

unvote, vote:sando

[Zajnet]

If you don't believe me that I'm taking 16 hours of honors courses, I can send you my schedule. I have to budget the time that I do have. I posted in other games because I had more relevant stuff to say in them.

[Sando]

First thing I noticed when ISOing Jack was this:

Oh jason. If I hadn't mislynched you once before.

Basically giving himself an excuse to not vote Jason. I really really hate this from Jack.

Then I started to realise that Jack is obsessed with voting people for non-case reasons. By this I mean he hasn't actually posted many/any cases against someone's actual play. All of his pushes before pushing me have been based on things like Lynch-All-Lurkers, pushing a claimed-masonizer-lynch, etc.

His push on MOI 'didn't need to be explained', then he claimed masoniser and that MOI was obv-scum. Then pushed Zaj, which again he doesn't explain, ever. Then you get to Iso 42, and it's startling in it's difference from his other posts, it's actually an argument. Suddenly he's pushing Ythan because a forum-thread told him lynching lurkers was a good idea. This is the first time he seems to put in some effort, and he takes no responsibility for his attack on a lurker, puts it all back on a good forum post that told him to do it.

In ISO 47, Sotty goes from being top-4 scum suspect to being top-4 townie player, and the reason for this is because another player becomes scummy... Yeah that's odd. Also, Sando suddenly becomes obv-town, the reason for this, or why I become obv-scum later, is never explained (good point from Erg0 on this one).

ISO 56-57, votes Jason... for 15 minutes.

Zajnet becomes the scummiest person, and from then on has been the most consistently scummy person for Jack, and the only case he ever posts is basically Lurking.

Jack promises to read me in ISO and 'post tomorrow' in ISO 73. ISO 74 he gives a 'teaser' which is just a random quote of me. ISO 75 only a few things strike him as odd about Sando, Zajnet is the lynch for today. 76, he 'loves' that everyone thinks Sando is scum. ISO 77, suddenly Sando is the lynch for today, not Zajnet. I'll quote these for lol's:

One or two things strike me as just plain weird in iso so atm I'm inclined to say zajnet is still the lynch. But I will go over it and think about it.

I love how everyone is just like 'sando? ...yeah he's scum' once they look at him closely.

He isn't, sando is the lynch for today see my posts last page, I have my own reasons for not voting yet.

So he asks us to look at his previous posts... So I did that, and the only post between Zaj being scummier than Sando and Sando being scummier than Zaj, is a post by Jack saying that he loves that everyone thinks Sando is scum. So according to Jack himself, the only reason Sando is scummier, is because everyone else thinks so...

Unvote, Vote: Jack

Gotta say at this point (this is total WIFOM, but screw it), this is a really weird day as one of the wagons. I find it interesting that 2 wagons have gone up so so so so easily on two players, while pushes on other players haven't gained any traction. I happen to know that at least 1 of them is town, but I think that people should seriously consider the ease with which these wagons have occured. I've just put Jack at L-1, and Jack put me at L-1 earlier today. Not entirely sure what to make of it, but I certainly feel that as town, the wagon on me was too contrived, but hey, you guys can't know it without having the benefit of my PM I think people should think about it, if nothing else, it's interesting, but I think there's probably something to it.

[farside22]

If you don't believe me that I'm taking 16 hours of honors courses, I can send you my schedule. I have to budget the time that I do have. I posted in other games because I had more relevant stuff to say in them.

Your as bad as Poro if this is the case.
There is 3 days of stuff and you haven't said much of anything.

FOS: Zajnet

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm leaning strongly towards a jason/Sando/Jack scum trio at this point. Definitely want to lynch one of the last two today, Sando's not ripe for lynch -1 yet so...

Vote: Jack

You have stated you have a scum read on Sando in 511. At the time you made this vote Sando had 3 votes and Jack only 1. If you think they are both members of the scum team why push on the member with less votes? Why are you afraid to put Sando at L-1?

Given that Sando's scumteam lost that game, do you think he could have learned from it and changed his scum style? Do you recall whether scum interactions were a big part of the reason for Sando and ooba's lynches on the last two days?

Scum interactions had little to do with the scum team being lynched. I was V/LA for basically all three scum lynches. Flavor of claims is what doomed the Mafia there combined with a smidgeon of PoE. Nothing to do with interactions.

So, no, I don’t think Sando decided to change his scum play as his bussing / interactions didn’t result in his team’s loss.

So if I'm scum, Jack probably isn't. Cool, because I'm not scum.

Not my point but possibly true. What makes it so scumtastic is that you haven’t scum-hunted or made any sort of comments about Jack that I can see in your ISO. You swoop in (much like your avatar), make a vote with little reasoning and disappear.

The fact that you chose to ignore the Sando wagon is an interaction I will be keeping my eye on.

MOI do you think Sando is likely town then?

Nope that’s a logical leap I’m not willing to make. I’m only stating that I don’t that his ignoring of Jason is a scum-tell. Below is my analysis of Sando’s ISO.

Sando’s ISO -

ISO 0 – Votes Jack for the tell “first to accuse of rolefishing is scum”. Note that this is the ‘boilerplate’ scumtell, which vollkan attacks on Day 2.

ISO 1 is the last significant direct interaction with Jack.

ISO 2 – 7 he goes back and forth with Farside significantly over issues regarding Jack’s meta free pass Day 1 and issues related to Sotty.

ISO 8 – Disagrees with Charlie’s decision to put me at L-1 while he is ‘divided’.

ISO 10 – Comments on IKD’s case on Jack and elaborates further reasons why he feels Jack is scummy and why Jack’s defenses are not credible.

ISO 11 – Move vote to Charlie for Charlie’s “Quickhammer would be under scrutiny” comment. ISO 12 follows up explaining why to Charlie.

ISO 13 - Light attack on Poro for not taking ‘stands’.

ISO 14 ends the day discussing Charlie.

ISO 15 starts Day 2 with a renewed vote for Jack based on role-fishing. States Jack is ‘muchos scummier’ than Zajnet.

ISO 16 – Attacks vollkan for his attack on Sando for using ‘boilerplate’ tells.

ISO 17 – Votes vollkan over the boilerplate issue with a touch of self-meta.

ISO 18 and 19 – Back and forth with vollkan regarding Poro’s inactivity.

ISO 20 – Answers questions about his scum-reads (Jack, Yhtan / Erg0 and vollkan)

ISO 23 – Long defense of his scum meta and a vote for Poro for inconsistency in voting / scum-reads.

ISO 24 – More scum meta defense. Admits to ignoring Jason but states it is not deliberate. Attacks Jack for ‘Saying Y is scummy but voting Z”

ISO 25 – More meta scum discussion and questions to Locke / Poro / Jack regarding his relative scumminess in comparison to Zajnet.

ISO 26 to 29 – More arguments against him being scum based on meta.

ISO 30 – Votes Locke for being opportunistic.

ISO 31 – Responds to questions regarding his and Poro’s scum game together

ISO 32 – Answers question from Sotty regarding his Jason.

I've voted Jack for most of the game, I've decided that I'm best served highlighting the things that I find wrong with Poro and Locke at the moment.

Sando – if you are sure Jack is scum why are you better served highlighting Poro and Locke at the moment? Isn’t your later Day 2 / Day 3 play to this point the same thing that you have accused others of – ‘Jack is scummy, but I’m voting for Poro / Locke’?

ISO 34 – Questions Erg0 about his scum partnership reads.

ISO 35 – Comments about Zajnet’s vote for Jack.

ISO 36 to 38– Contradictory point that he is not attacking Poro on meta. All statements regarding Poro relate to his play in other games as scum.

ISO 40 – First direct scum-hunting on Jack since early Day 1. Accompanied by a vote.

I’m getting a scum read from Sando at this point. He’s called Jack as scum for the majority of the game but hasn’t actively worked towards proving that via scum-hunting. In fact his focus on Jack really wilts Day 2.

Many of his posts are framed from a defensive position.

The timing of his renewed attention to Jack (aligned with Jack’s sudden attention to Sando) strike me as possible bussing.

Overall most of his ‘scum-hunting’ revolves around meta attacks, which he states in ISO 2 he dislikes (emphasis added)

Funnily enough, having not played a significant number of games with anyone here,

I can't really contribute to the meta discussion, doesn't really bother me though, I hate meta arguments.

He's been hammering multiple people for 'Call Y Scum, Vote X" when he looks to be doing the same thing with Jack in the last Day.

Finally that last bit of self-contradiction regarding his attacks on Poro triggers one of my top Scum-tells - Cognitive Dissonance.

UNVOTE: Jack.

At this point I really need to assess how strongly I think Sando and Jack are likely scum partners. If I do either is a good lynch. If I don't I really need to weigh the scumminess of the two.

[Incognito]

Bumping vote count.