Mini 1006: Random Mafia Game Over!

[quadz08]

/confirm.

Also, hey AGar, xvart, totallynotmafia, vezok, and gandalf. Good to see you all again!

[quadz08]

VOTE: AGar for being so damned smart in that game. I can only hope we're on the same side this time.

[quadz08]

So, if I understand the mod's opening statements correctly, we were all given an alignment, and then a role. Is it possible, then, that we have a mafia cop, or a town godfather, or a mafia PGO, or other such things? Also, is it possible that you have roles which were given without their complementary role? (i.e., only one mason, or a firefighter with no arsonist?)

1.Yes. 2.Depends on the role.

Also, vezok, that claim was rather useless. Unless you've got a really wacky role, which requires you to false-claim or something, your claim was essentially useless. All it did was throw suspicion on you.

Exe: I'm assuming/hoping that you were at least half-joking. While vezok's claim is unhelpful and very strange, it's clearly not enough evidence to get her lynched. I mean, you're calling for a lynch on page 2. Really?

[quadz08]

My apologies, vezok.

[quadz08]

@Espeon: I wasn't completely sure. I knew that it would provide for some crazy things, since it seemed like this game would be PR-heavy. I didn't completely understand how he was going to ensure balance, though the fact that he assigned alignments and roles separately has eased my mind somewhat.

Also, I'm assuming your explanation for your unvote is forthcoming after answers to your question. If not, please explain.

I think Exe's gambit was interesting. What I find much more interesting, however, is that vezok was magically cleared after just one question. I don't think a single post can possibly incriminate or clear someone so quickly.

HoS: Exe

I need some more evidence before a vote, but yeesh. You're certainly toeing the line, sir.

[quadz08]

My apologies. Remove the advective.

[quadz08]

EBWOP: adjective*

[quadz08]

AGar: which post of vezok's are your referring to?

[quadz08]

Still like to hear opinions from gandalf, kenman, millar and Zajnet before the day is done as they have barely contributed anything so far.

QFT.

Espeon: Your unvote confused the crap out of me when you made it, and you haven't provided any sort of clarification. You've also had a couple of answers to your question that followed the unvote. The faster you can explain, the better. Gracias.

Exe vs. Vezok is... interesting. I highly doubt that both of them are scum, and I also doubt that scum would claim VT in this game. Of the two, Exe definitely seems to be the better choice for today's lynch.

[quadz08]

EBWOP/Addendum: I'm not ready to throw the hammer just yet. I want to hear a bit more from Exe, and hopefully we can get some opinions from the Forgotten Four tnm mentioned. Barring some pretty incredible news, though, I'm willing to hammer him after I hear some more information.

[quadz08]

Ok, first things first: Espeon's a lucky bastard, or he figured out Exe's role amazingly quickly.

Second: Dammit, Espeon. That quickhammer really sucked. I still want to hear millar's thoughts (and kenman's, and Zajnet's, and gandalf's). I'm interested in hearing what people think about xvart being the NK as well.

I've still got my eye on vezok, though much less so now that Exe flipped scum. I'm keeping my options (and my eyes) wide open, though.

[quadz08]

Well, crap. Bad luck/timing strikes again.

I try not to just throw my vote around. I like to wait until I'm as sure as I can be, given the situation. My HoS was meant to say that I'm *this* close to voting, but not just yet. I needed a little bit more info. Unfortunately, Espeon struck before that information could be gotten.

@AGar: Your claim is interesting. While it does keep town PR's from touching you, you also just removed a chance for the mafia to hit you. I suppose it ends up nulling out in the end.

Of course, you could also be lying. For one, you could be a mafia-aligned PGO, which would prevent any definitive read on you (but then, why would you tell us? So this option is pretty much off the table.) Or you could just be another scum role (or something that shows up scum, anyway) looking for protection from investigation. I'm unsure where I think you lie on this one, AGar.

[quadz08]

I think AGar would be a good lynch. I don't want to rush it, though, and if we can find a better lynch (obvscum, basically), then that trumps lynching AGar, obviously.

However, I would like some explanation on your vote, there.

[quadz08]

I would like to point out that I am at L-1 (unless I'm doing my math wrong.)

[quadz08]

Alright, then. I am the Town Bus Driver. I did not use my ability last night, because I didn't have good enough reads on anyone to use it without messing up any possible town roles.

I understand everyone's suspicion of me. I am ok with getting lynched today, because (due to some crazy unfortunate circumstances) I've become a large distraction from scumhunting. There's a lot of evidence that points my way, that I have essentially no defense against except the aforementioned shitty luck. I do ask that I am not lynched now, as it would essentially serve to give scum an extra night, since we have gathered very little information so far. If the town decides not to lynch me after all, all the better. It means we might lynch another scum today instead.

[quadz08]

Yeah, but it could be dangerous to let him fall under the control of scum. Still

Unvote

for now. It's too quick a day and we don't want scum quickhammering.

FOS: Mitsuru

Ummmm... care to explain?

[quadz08]

True, but democracy often relies on how good candidates are at speaking.

In other words, it's entirely possible for scum to heavily influence the direction I'd be pointed at. I think Mitsuru makes a good point.

[quadz08]

Thread needs more people to see that vezok is not scum.

Prove it.

[quadz08]

In other news, thread needs more vezok votes. He's reeking of scum.

Also, why aren't you voting him, if that's the case?

[quadz08]

I am.

Shoot, my bad. I missed that post.

My top suspect right now is also vezok. 186 is just a strange post. His defense of himself is talking about how badly he plays as scum. I'm not feeling it.

[quadz08]

Cause he knows quadz is scum.

Can I hear some reasons for this, please? I don't really give a damn how often you say it; you have to prove it, too.

If the town wants to lynch me because my ability is too dangerous, then so be it. But don't call me scum with no reasoning behind it.

[quadz08]

Think of it optimistically: You didn't get killed by the supersaintness because you weren't quite ready to vote yet. I for one don't really find you scummy for that HoS.

That was before my claim. This next one is after people have started wagoning me.

#142 definitely pings my scumdar, more so than quadz has yet. I support the wagon, but I won't vote for him until I hear the claim.

He then hears the claim, and seems to defend me. (See his ISO #13 and #14)

VOTE: quadz L-1.

And then, after 5 posts about millar and vezok (not mentioning me at all), he votes for me, putting me at L-1. I really don't understand his logic there, even if he is scum. It just seems like bad play.

vezok, on the other hand... holy sheeping, batman! That pretty much settles it for me. UNVOTE: VOTE: vezok

[quadz08]

@Mod: I am now voting vezok (end of #210). Sorry if the location was confusing.

[quadz08]

I believe he's at L-2, Mitsuru.

[quadz08]

Any requests for me before night is up?

[quadz08]

Sorry Erg0. That's a bummer.

In other news:

I think AGar could be scum. PGO is the perfect scum claim, and some of his reasoning for his claim is rather fuzzy. Zajnet is also on my scumdar, for reasons mentioned previously.

[quadz08]

You know, I thought about fake claiming. But it would've backfired in the end. Someone would've eventually strolled in and pushed lynch-all-liars once I had to admit I didn't have a power that was beneficial to the town.

This is what I found to be fuzzy. I don't feel that a player with much brain power would have called lynch-all-liars in that circumstance,

especially

if you had drawn a scum-visit. And I don't think your power would have been bad for town, necessarily. It's pretty neutral, really, and could be a huge benefit. I think that you're a good enough player to draw that scum-visit, and make PGO a benefit for town.

I'm far from ready to "lynch AGar," Mitsuru. My words were "I think AGar could be scum." I was putting the option on the table, and letting my thoughts be known; no more, no less.

[quadz08]

Millar, your claim concerns me. I don't know how likely it is that more than one mason popped up. Also, why would you claim mason at this point anyway? Also, it is definitely possible that you are scum, despite being a mason.

Also, is it possible that you have roles which were given without their complementary role? (i.e., only one mason, or a firefighter with no arsonist?)

Depends on the role.

This makes me doubly unsure. *sigh*

I want to think that this is a fake-claim, but I don't know what it would gain. That makes me doubt my first instinct.

[quadz08]

After thinking about it, I'm not sure if it's so much scummy as it is just dumb. Pretty much a null-tell, to me.

[quadz08]

Perhaps, but there was also nothing to gain at this point. Mayhaps if you had waited, your role/brief conversations with Erg0 might have been useful.

[quadz08]

Here's something that's skated under the radar (I think due to millar's claim) that I just thought about after a brief re-read: AGar's speedy hammer. Thoughts on this from anyone? I feel like it was rushed, not quite to the point of a quicklynch, but it certainly robbed us of discussion time.

[quadz08]

Ummm... I didn't object because

it wasn't the hammer

.

[quadz08]

I didn't feel the need to object to something that did not yet exist.

[quadz08]

Explain how my adding what I thought was an unnecessary disclaimer would be considered "concise."

[quadz08]

Caution is scummy. Sticking to your ideals and expressing them is pro town, in my experience at least.

Are you intending to say that these are opposite, exclusive things? Because they very much aren't. For example, I am currently expressing the fact that I think AGar's lack of caution and rushed hammer could be indicative of scum, and is, in fact, the scummiest thing I've seen so far.

[quadz08]

I don't disagree. I was voting for the man, remember? I just think that it would have been wiser to use more time that Day to discuss things. I am, in no way, saying vezok's lynch should have been stopped; rather, I am saying it should have been postponed. And before the inevitable "then why didn't you unvote to get him out of L-1?" I was not anticipating that anyone would decide to waste the rest of the day by lynching him then. Perhaps I should have unvoted, to further ensure that; if so, then I messed up there. However, I still believe that AGar's play was reckless and ill-advised.

[quadz08]

As I mentioned, I did a re-read, and it stood out. I find it hard to swallow that's it's scummy to point out scummy behavior. Sorry if the order I presented it in wasn't in keeping with the order of posts, or whatever organizational system your brain is using.

And as to your accusation of "underhandedly slipping suspicion on" millar, I'd like you to go back and re-read. I have been pretty steadfast in my belief that it is a

null-tell

, and merely stupid, not scummy.

[quadz08]

After thinking about it, I'm not sure if it's so much scummy as it is just dumb. Pretty much a null-tell, to me.

This was my very next post, AGar. At first I was unsure, then I thought about it, and realized that it was dumb no matter what alignment millar is. My perspective on that has never changed, once I made my decision.

And gandalf, I still haven't heard you explain why you think I'm scummy. You've voted me twice now, with no justification. Care to fix that?

[quadz08]

I apologize that my turn of phrase is confusing you, but I assure you, that's all it is.

[quadz08]

AGar, Zajnet, or Gandalf. Gandalf mostly based on lurking; AGar for reasons I've enumerated above; Zajnet for his wagon-hopping without explanation.

[quadz08]

Ummmm... what post did you explain it in? I just went back and looked, and I'm not seeing it.

[quadz08]

Ah. Found it. Thanks.

As I said before, what happened leading up to Exe's lynch was just a shitty coincidence. I know that's a weak defense, but I don't have any other one; it's the truth.

[quadz08]

Even if it's only to spark some discussion or activity in here:

VOTE: AGar

[quadz08]

Explain it anyway. I'm thinking you need to, especially after being non-existent for 6 days, then posting a vote.

[quadz08]

I was hoping to get people talking again. Nobody had posted anything (outside of declaring V/LA) for a full day.

[quadz08]

Just to make this clear, I will be V/LA starting on Tuesday the 10th, and going through the 20th. It may start tomorrow evening sometime; we will see. I should be able to pop in and make occasional short posts, but we will see.

[quadz08]

I agree with what you said, Mitsuru. I'm good to switch my vote to him if others think he's more suspicious than AGar.

[quadz08]

As I've said before, I'm suspicious of his claim and his quick hammer. If others aren't suspicious of him, so be it. I'll need more than that to change my mind.

[quadz08]

gandalf, I've been over that before. Did you

read

the thread?

[quadz08]

If the lynch is gonna happen anyway, why not keep discussion going? There does come a point where there's nothing else to be squeezed out of a Day, but I don't think we were there yet.

And I know that PGO is a bastard role, where playing to the town's advantage is very, very difficult. However, I feel like some of the reasoning for claiming AGar put forth was forced, as well as feeling that AGar is capable of drawing a scum-visit.

[quadz08]

I feel like there are ways to draw a scum visit without forcing the doctor on you. Also, we don't know if there's a doctor, but we DO know that there's mafia.

[quadz08]

There absolutely does not have to be a doctor.

[quadz08]

no, I'm not referencing Kyle's game. I'm referencing the fact that this is a RANDOM game, with roles RANDOMLY assigned. It is possible for there to be a doc, but I don't believe that one can say that the existence of a doctor is proven by the presence of a nurse. Without additional info from the mod (which he has previously not given) we MUST assume that the presence of a certain role does not force the presence of another. Just like we can't assume there is, in fact, another mason. Or if an arsonist flipped, we couldn't assume the presence of a firefighter.

EDIT: Zajnet's post is the TL;DR version.

[quadz08]

I don't know this mod, but I know that if

I

were to mod a random mafia game, I would take pleasure in pointless roles. It would be fun to watch.

[quadz08]

I'm aware of that. And why would that put him off? I don't see why giving someone a useless role is such a terrible thing in a game of this nature.

But this kind of speculation really gets us nowhere at this point, and we'll have agree to disagree for now. Besides, Zajnet's penchant for posting one-liners and no content is really getting on my nerves; if you're on to read this whole thing, and comment on it, can't you say something more than fluff? Tell us what you think, instead of just sheeping and wagon-hopping. I promise, having opinions is OK. Tell us some of yours, without us having to force them out of you.

[quadz08]

My count:
Zaj(3): Mitsuru, TNM, gandalf
quadz(1): AGar
AGar(1): quadz
Not Voting(2): millar, Zaj

I just went through to check, and had to change a couple of things, so I may be wrong, here.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Zaj appears to be at L-1. I am not in favor of a hammer yet, in case anyone was planning on hammering now.

[quadz08]

What's scummy about that, AGar?

[quadz08]

Alright, makes sense to me. Thanks for clearing that up.

[quadz08]

I want to hear Zajnet's defense. That sound feasible?

[quadz08]

Yeah, I'm not expecting much, but I'm gonna give him the opportunity to surprise us.

[quadz08]

Zaj, you're following popular opinion again. AGar

just

got finished talking about how the setup speculation was scummy, and I don't think anyone outside of me was looking at gandalf before that (and I was on him for lurking). In fact, in your next-to-last post, you say you can't get a read on gandalf. I don't buy it.

The TNM stuff is... unexpected, and different, which is good, but I'm a little unsure as to how you got that read on him. I currently have a null-townish read on him, and it's only townish because of his case of you, which seems pretty solid. I think you calling him out is at least somewhat OMGUS-based.

As per your request, I would like to inform you that I plan on hammering. Respond.

EDIT: Due to Mitsuru's Unvote, it appears that my vote will put you back at L-1. In that case:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zajnet

EDIT EDIT: Gosh dang. That was fast. Gandalf?

[quadz08]

Wait, what the fuck just happened? Zajnet got out of a lynch by completely avoiding any case against him, and sheeping a case that had already been stated by AGar?

QFT. While I understand and agree with the case on gandalf, I can't believe mitsuru and AGar would just jump ship like that, after Zajnet sheeped his way through his defense. I simply do not understand.

[quadz08]

Yes, please.

[quadz08]

Thank you, o great and powerful Mod.

I still want explanation from AGar and Mitsuru for the sudden vote switch. Also, a claim from Gandalf seems to be in order, as previously mentioned.

[quadz08]

EBWOP: Zaj hasn't claimed yet either, so his claim would be good too.

[quadz08]

Ah, sorry Mitsuru. How did Zaj convince you he was town?

[quadz08]

So you just think Gandalf and TNM are scummier, then?

[quadz08]

I actually can believe that claim; that's what I was guessing when you were arguing so hard for there being a doc. However, like you said, that doesn't say anything about your alignment, and since there haven't been any successful saves (I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong) the fact that you may be the doctor doesn't matter anyway. And it certainly doesn't negate the case against you.

[quadz08]

Oh, and AGar, I just forgot that you weren't voting for Zaj before you switched. My bad.

[quadz08]

It doesn't affect the fact that setup speculation takes away time from scumhunting. Just because you're the role we were arguing about doesn't mean that the argument didn't have the same effect.

[quadz08]

d'uhhhhhh... what? No. It didn't. Let me show you something:

Is it possible that you have roles which were given without their complementary role? (i.e., only one mason, or a firefighter with no arsonist?)

Depends on the role.

[quadz08]

I think you're nuts, personally. I don't think it's safe or in our best interest to assume he's town; even if he IS a mason, the same reasoning applies as does with you. He could still be mafia.

[quadz08]

Idk. It's simply smarter to not assume, I think. We've managed to segway into setup speculation again, though, and I think that's enough of that.

[quadz08]

I still think Zajnet is more likely to be scum, but I'm ok with a Gandalf lynch today, I think. Just as a word of caution, we're at 5-2 (we think) so a mislynch puts us at 3-2 tomorrow, which is lylo.

[quadz08]

I'm good to hammer gandalf, with the prerequisite that we go after Zaj hardcore tomorrow if Gandalf flips town. Unless someone takes issue with my hammer/prereq, I'm good to place my vote.

[quadz08]

Ok, that's fair. If you don't see a good reason, I wouldn't expect you to.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gandalf

[quadz08]

Hey guys, I'm back from V/LA. Sorry about that.

I think Zaj is scum, as I said yesterday. I'll do some re-reading as soon as I can, and come back with a fresh perspective.

[quadz08]

Hey, I'm AGar, and I clearly don't recognize an attempt to get viewpoints from certain players.

[quadz08]

Anyhoo, I can confirm what MK said; I am indeed a roleblocker, and those were indeed my targets. If I'm understanding this set-up correctly, there aren't any protective roles left. So, we have one scum found in quadz.

Wait, what? Are you trying to base my alignment on how many protective roles have flipped/claimed? This is random mafia, meaning that the roles are, in fact, COMPLETELY RANDOM, in case you missed that statement about a half dozen times in the 17 pages of this game. That statement makes no sense.

[quadz08]

Oh. Gotcha. That was a misunderstanding; I missed the point you were trying to make.

And once again, shitty circumstances come to bite me. I am the town bus driver, as I've said before, and I have not used my ability on any night. There is no viable method of defense against this particular accusation; it does seem rather damning, I'll admit. However, here's a thought: what if Mitsuru/Haschel is a scum RB, who blocked me and didn't kill on purpose, knowing that it would cause a near-certain lynch, winning the game for scum (assuming we're in 4:2)?

I will further investigate this possiblity, as well as look into possible buddies and the scumminess of AGar and Zajnet.

[quadz08]

I agree that a no-lynch seems to be the wisest choice. No one has exhibited any scummy (or particularly townie) behavior today, so my suspicions on Zajnet and AGar remained unchanged. The information we'll get tonight will hopefully be valuable.

[quadz08]

Sounds good to me. VOTE: No Lynch

[quadz08]

The activity level in here is just staggering. I don't know how I'll ever keep up.

[quadz08]

We'll see what happens tonight. No, I may not have the strongest case on you now, but it's better than any other case that's been presented (with the exception of the one on Zajnet).

[quadz08]

I'm here, sorry for not posting yet. I've had an extraordinarily busy weekend. I'll post content ASAP.

[quadz08]

AGar: I went through your ISO. You have no more of a case on me than I did on you. In fact, #144 is his first mention of me being scummy, when he states that the following post (which followed after his PGO claim) made him “confident in a scumread” on me:

I think AGar would be a good lynch. I don't want to rush it, though, and if we can find a better lynch (obvscum, basically), then that trumps lynching AGar, obviously.

However, I would like some explanation on your vote, there.

Ummmmmm… OMGUS, much? Not to mention severe bandwagoning, seeing as how I had 3 votes on me (due to the HoS fiasco, I believe.).

He then asks for my claim in his next post. I proceed to claim, and he doesn’t mention me again until I bring up another scumtell in his speedy hammer of Vezok. In post #252, he says “Quadz has acted scummy, has had things indicative of him potentially being scum now for a while. This is just another. Let's lynch him.”

I feel like AGar has been pushing for my lynch, because he knows it wouldn’t be difficult. In addition, as I mentioned before, his PGO claim is, quite literally, perfect for scum in this game. If he’s not PGO, and just scum, he prevents nighttime visits. If he is PGO, and somebody thinks he’s lying, his claim combined with the extra death gives him huge townie cred. (I just realized that last part; it is different from what I’ve said before.)

Honestly, I don't think there's been a coherent case on me all game long; if there has, it's not from any living players. Correct this, pretty please.

I don’t even know how to go about scumhunting anyone else; nobody has any damn posts with content in this game. It’s pretty ridiculous how low the activity has been. I’ll do my best with the other three tomorrow (hopefully), though I don’t think I’m gonna find anything that’s more suspicious than AGar.

With that in mind, VOTE: AGar.

[quadz08]

The irony of the game is that I legitimately meant my arguments at the beginning. I wasn't scummy, in my mind...

Bravo to my team. Also, LOL on Quadz calling out EXACTLY what my teammates had planned.

With the "what if one is a scum RB, and he blocked me, and then they no-kill" thing?

[quadz08]

My clever ploy on N5 didn't work. I had switched Zaj and Haschel. Here were my thoughts:

I thought Zaj was scummy, as I mentioned. If he was scum, I thought they'd probably go for Haschel, because he was a) new, and b) pretty good.
I also had a gut scum-read on MK/Haschel. I had no clue why, so I never brought it up (I don't think), but I figured that if he was scum, Zaj would be a safe kill for them (less suspicious than me, and not PGO).

I didn't think they'd waste time on Millar, though their decision to NK him (I imagine because he would give us basically no info) was very smart. And I was roleblocked (apparently) anyway, so it didn't much matter haha.

[quadz08]

I think I was scummier here than I ever was in Newbie 965 hahaha. Maybe I just need to pretend I'm scum in every game I play. XD