Mini 1046 - Murder in the Desert (Game Over!)

[Parama]

I still want to lynch Boberz first but having both a Bob and a Bub wagon is pretty cool awesome d(''d)

[Nicodemus]

Vote Count 1.08

Bub Bidderskins

(5): WeaponsofMassConstruction, DemonHybrid, boberz, Lowell, charter

boberz

(4): xvart, Parama, Cogito Ergo Sum, Slaxx

Parama

(2): Xine, Bub Bidderskins

Cogito Ergo Sum

(1): Oso

Bub Bidderskins is at L-2

7

to lynch.

Deadline for D1 can be found here

[Slaxx]

Vote Counts so far
-----------------------------------
Parama (2): Slaxx, Cogito Ergo Sum
boberz (2): xvart, DemonHybrid
Xine (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
Slaxx (1): boberz
xvart (1): Oso
------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
boberz (4): xvart, DemonHybrid, Parama, charter
Parama (2): Cogito Ergo Sum, Lowell
Bub Bidderskins (2): Slaxx, WeaponsofMassConstruction
Slaxx (1): boberz
xvart (1): Oso

------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
boberz (6): xvart, DemonHybrid, Parama, charter, Cogito Ergo Sum, Slaxx
Slaxx (2): boberz, Lowell
Bub Bidderskins (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
xvart (1): Oso
------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
boberz (5): xvart, Parama, charter, Cogito Ergo Sum, Slaxx
Slaxx (2): boberz, Lowell
Bub Bidderskins (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
Cogito Ergo Sum (1): Oso
------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
boberz (4): xvart, Parama, Cogito Ergo Sum, Slaxx
Slaxx (3): boberz, Lowell, charter
Bub Bidderskins (1): WeaponsofMassConstruction
Cogito Ergo Sum (1): Oso
Parama (1): Xine
------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
boberz (4): xvart, Parama, Cogito Ergo Sum, Slaxx
Bub Bidderskins (3): WeaponsofMassConstruction, DemonHybrid, boberz
Slaxx (2): Lowell, charter
Parama (2): Xine, Bub Bidderskins
Cogito Ergo Sum (1): Oso
----------------------------------


Alright so with that up (mainly for my own reference) I shall get to work on ISOs.

Boberz: In the beginning Boberz seemed trying pretty hard to look townie, as many others have already stated. Despite what he might think I do think he was contradicting himself in several places, but they were almost all on game discussion. Ironically enough, digging through all these posts, the only people he seems to express concern for are Bub and I. I figured my ISO would be longer for boberz, but 90% of his content is useless theory discussion, whether he is using that as an excuse to post filler and stay away from scumhunting or is sincerely trying to defend himself is up to everyone else to decide for themselves. He was kind of indifferent to my L-1 vote, and I really don't know how to take that. I thought putting more pressure on him would serve me well, but it just caught me a bunch of heat instead. I don't know about Boberz. For now we'll stick him in

neutral

. Speaking of which,

unvote

Budder: ISO 0 reeks of scum trying to look productive. He was not even paying attention when he addressed Boberz. ISO #1 still isn't much better. I don't feel like the questions are genuine, nor do they really seem to be trying to prove any sort of point. I think if he offered his own opinion I would be able to see the point of his questions better, but without his "thesis" the questions look halfhearted and maybe even a bit forced. ISO 5 he expresses concern about CES but still does not vote. We're pretty far in to the game now and everyone should at least be dropping FoSs and preferably votes. In ISO 8 he gets frustrated with Parama and calls a lot of what Parama said, which I thought made some sense (especially the part about Xine's refusal to vote Boberz at that time), then wrote it all off as OMGUS. Parama then points out that he has good logic and calls Bubberz scum for not agreeing.

Possible scum.

Charter: Charter has been fairly townie so far in the way he posts and who he pressured. It's really frustrating to try to talk to this guy though, so as I do his ISO I will try for probably the final time to argue for myself against him in addition to doing his ISO. The only real post that bothers me from Charter's ISO is when he said CS's wagon targets looked good to him. I feel like he let CES off the hook pretty easy for a pretty rough bandwagon vote, but then even after I gave some reasoning for my vote he either didnt see it or wasnt satisfied with it. He keeps asserting I am scum with boberz, which doesnt make much sense considering I put him at L-1 and was one of the first to pressure him, the former for which he has found me extremely scummy for. In regards to his vote on Bub saying I was scum with Bub, all I can say is that I felt like he did the same exact thing with CES, but if he isnt scum with CES then he will understand that the logic that he is using for the alleged slaxx/bub scumbuddy pair isnt that solid. Idk, Ive always been bad with people who FoS me.

Probably town.

Shower break, will do rest hopefully tonight.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Thoughts since last post.

From what I've played with Parama and how I play, hyperdefensiveness itself is not a scum tell. Rather it is the legitimacy of what the defender posts, and I find Parama's response to Xine to hold water, and so I have a town read on Parama. As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

Oso, your thoughts?

Still getting negatives vibes from Slaxx, mostly due to indecisive tendencies.

[Slaxx]

Idk about you man, you didnt really"sheep my vote" but you did kind of agree with me on it, but then you kind of started expressing concern for me when it was the cool thing to do. Why the sudden change of heart?

[Slaxx]

And the vote I am referring to is the vote on Bud

[xvart]

Catching up as I read the last four pages. Some of this might be a repeat.

For the last time, its not Meta. Its just how I post. Check the signup thread, I know there is at least one instance where I posted one thing, read up, and a few minutes later decided to address another. Mini normal cue, go. He tried to pass it off as a scum tell by saying I was scared to address people. I am not intimidated by players as town or mafia.

I don't understand this. Are you being accused of being scummy based on your double posting style? Why do you continue to justify it by saying look at the sign up thread? Is a sign up thread posting style a good indicator of alignment when compared to in-game posting styles?

Right now I am thinking along the lines of possibilities and I have gathered these possible scenarios:
Boberz/Weapons as scum + Bud as town (Pretty evident why this is a possibility if you go back and read the thread)

If Bub is town in this possible scenario then why do you immediately vote him in the next post? Are you voting for someone you think is likely town?

Also I have been on the defense quite a lot so expect a decent post from me detailing FoSs, maybe a town tell or two, and whatnot by the end of the day.

Scum have more need to focus on defending themselves than town. Town can defend themselves by actually hunting scum.

It was when he accepted my explanation but stayed on my wagon. That's what I've said time and time again.

Why are you so concerned about this when you are not the leading bandwagon?

---

Second Allegded example: who ended RVS? Firstly it doesnt really matter, it was just in response to somebody claiming that RVS votes stopped RVS and crediting Slaxx. I take credit for it, but I credit Slaxx for 'poking and prodding those who are trying to play properly' which helped get us out of RVS. (But I did it first).

how do you expect to ever move on from the RVS if you do not poke and prod those who are trying to play properly (I credit you with that Slaxx).

It is clearly me giving credit where credit is due rather than crediting someone with ending RVS.

For someone who says it doesn't really matter who ended RVS you sure go out of your way to say three times that you were responsible for it. Do you think people that "end" RVS are always town?

---

Just fyi, I believe boberz is at Lynch -1.

Bub, if you find yourself thinking that sort of thing 5 pages in and it's not about a newbie, you're probably wrong.

For the people asking for content: Lowell is looking townish and it should be evident why if you think about it.

At the time of this post, you had been asked by at least two different people to explain your blatant bandwagon and you still didn't answer here. Why?

You seem confused. I clearly stated what I was doing when I changed my vote.

Oh, you mean the *hops*? So you admit you just want to bandwagon without care or concern?

Face it, Oso, bandwagonning is awesome. Unless I have a good reason not to, I always put down the fifth vote on berz in that situation. Pressure, pressure, pressure.

Why didn't you say this the first time? Also, the fifth vote? Not the fourth? Is the fourth vote not a bandwagon? Is the sixth vote to late? You make zero sense here.

---

@xvart, is your av from The Wheel of Time?

Yes. The darkones luck.

---

Xine - are you saying that if bobz is scum then one of Slaxx, Parama, or DH is his buddy? Wouldn't the appropriate vote go on the person you find scummy and not one of the three probable scum buddies?

Parama
Yes, assuming that bob is scum, I would think it not unlikely that one of the three original attackers would be his buddy, it’s called distancing, and a pretty common play.
The reason I voted you not him…I found a likely team, and put my vote on the one who is not hovering around L-1. I’m not ready to jump up on such an advanced wagon on my first post.

Not a good answer. You are voting for someone that is not the most likely scum in your opinion because you are afraid to put the most likely scum in your opinion at L-1?

Boberz seems to be getting pretty tense by now. Every answer he gives creates more questions. He is contradicting himself heavily, and claiming that he is not doing so, in a rather defensive way.
For now,

I see bob as pretty scummy

, with one of Slaxx, Parama, or DH as his

buddy

, probably Parama, because he seems hyper defensive too.

This implies that you want to lynch boberz first and then one of the three you mentioned as his buddy, btw.

It also suggests that your case on the three possible buddies relies on Bobz, but you won't be able to determine that if you don't know Bobz flip. Your vote is on a case that you don't have full evidence of at this point.

---

I am awesome incarnate, so that is not shocking.
I want everyone to give 3 scum reads and 3 town reads in their next post.

Possible scum: Xine, Bobz, and Slaxx, with an honorable mention to CES.

---

Oh, and I'm not leaving you at L-1.

Unvote

Still my top suspect, but I'd rather no one quickhammer. I gotta look over some things first.

Scummy scummy scummy. Why are you afraid to leave your top suspect at risk of lynch? Either you and Bobz are both scum and you are trying to derail his wagon or you are scum and he is town and you are trying to get off the wagon. Which is it?

---

Bub - for the love of god please do not insert text responses inside quotes. It makes it impossible to read and even more impossible to reply to.

That's a textbook definition of OMUGUS.

No, it is not.

---

Being afraid to vote your top suspect, regardless of whatever reason, while voting someone else less scummy is a very strong scumtell.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Xine

With that said, Xine: say for a second we did lynch Parama today and he flips town. Would you then want to move on to one of the other two people on your suspected scum list based on bob still being most likely scum. See, unlike you, bobz alignment as scum is only strengthened by you flipping scum, so I am voting you.

xvart.

[Slaxx]

CES: This should be fun. CES has been bandwagoning quite a bit, but at the same time not trying to be sneaky or covert about it. At first, as in the first couple times he did this, I just thought to myself "I feel like scum would try to disguise their uselessness a bit better" but after continuously vague content I can't really say his direct playstyle is a towntell anymore. Needs more postz and needs to express his opinion a bit more.

Neutral.

DH: DH is proving to be a hard read from me. A lot of his material is also on the discussion of theory, and occasionally he express concern for Boberz in between these mounds of discussion. The unvote from him when I put Boberz at L-1 was a bit of a town tell, considering his important placement on Boberz wagon ( 3rd I think?). He could have easily left his vote where it was if Boberz had been his scum buddy during the initial stage of the game, so whether Boberz is scum or town is irrelevant, to me his unvote is a slight town tell. His vote on Bubberz is well explained, and he seems willing to actually communicate with bubberz on why he is being voted which shows he isn't really up for a fast lynch.

Likely Town.

Lowell: Votes me, says i am scummy, I explain myself, votes bub. Needs more content.

Neutral.

[Slaxx]

-At xvart, I was but not anymore. Yes, its a good indicator of my posting style, in game or out of game. I don't change my typing style in a game. That whole vote on me was a huge reach anyway at best. Also reread my ISO. That is NOT the way it happened. That was an unvote... Yes you are right, they do, but that is why I am posting my ISOs and opinions now. Your last quote is lulzy...So I can';t bring evidence on him if I am not the mighty crusader of his wagon?

[Slaxx]

Sigh I meant to space those all out.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Idk about you man, you didnt really"sheep my vote" but you did kind of agree with me on it, but then you kind of started expressing concern for me when it was the cool thing to do. Why the sudden change of heart?

Most of the time I agree with posts, I get the same read before I see them, and just make the post fit context. If I was doing the cool thing, I'd say boberz is scum or CES or maybe Lowell. I'm getting bad vibes from you right now, though I'll take back what I said earlier about defending yourself with the way you play, as nothing else works as a defense and the way you play can legitimately be like that.

[Slaxx]

Maybe, but I don't like to cry Meta either, because that just doesn't work. My point was it wasn't a playing style as much as it was a typing style.

[Slaxx]

Speaking of which

unvote: bub bidderskins

for now.

Just posting that for your reference, xvart.

[charter]

I feel like he let CES off the hook pretty easy for a pretty rough bandwagon vote, but then even after I gave some reasoning for my vote he either didnt see it or wasnt satisfied with it.

I'm pretty sure I've started out games as town making posts identical to CES's.


Slaxx, I don't know if you've answered it or not (I can't find it) but what was the reason you put Boberz at L-1 for? From your posts where you voted him, it looked like you thought he was scum, what had you so convinced he was scum to put him at L-1 then? (don't give me any of this crap about 'oh, scum wouldn't quickhammer' because quickhammering as scum is an amazing play). And then, (I also don't see it) but why did you come back with a deflecting question to Lowell's comment about you putting Boberz at L-1?

[Slaxx]

Id hate to not do what you asked, but I don't see why quickhammering d1 is amazing play, and therefore I didnt worry about it. I already said he was suspicious because he accepted all my explanations and backed down from accusing me, but kept his vote on me (this made me suspicious because I was the next biggest bandwagon, I think we were 5/3 or 4/3 at the time).

I did answer this one for sure. I made some datcare analogy. You'll have to find it.

[Slaxx]

..day...care...

[charter]

I'm just looking for you to give me (repeat it if you have to) a black and white answer to those questions. I still don't get why you put him at L-1 and even more importantly, when Lowell brought it up, you deflected.

[Oso]

..
Oso, your thoughts?
..

I think there is a lot of posting Which is good but makes it hell to keep up on one read through a day.

Also, from looking at the VC list Slaxx posted it seems I am still the only person on CES. And I did a quick ISO and he hasn't posted anything since I last looked so there is nothing to add to my original reason for a vote. So I'll switch to my second scummiest suspect.

Unvote

VOTE: Slaxx

For the reason stated here:

..

Slaxx:

The person I will vote if my actual vote goes no where. Main reason is L-1 on a player he has made a zero case on. He doesn't even bother to borrow someone else's. Just uses a 'see above post' in his vote post and the 'see above' post is based on the 'possibilities' and go back and read the thread to find them. Weak, very weak.
..

There are quite a few posts that I haven't had a chance to read yet. I see that boberz has fallen off a bit and Bub and Slaxx seem to be gaining ground on him and I need to dig in and see what has went on in the last day or so. I have a couple or three hours before bedtime so I hope to give a more substantial post later on.

[non-game]I see Xine made an appearance. Hi Xine.[/non-game]

[Oso]

First off, can we lynch Bub for answering inside the quotes?(<-Joke, but not by much)

I'll say I like my vote where it is for the moment but on re-reading I see that there is also no current support for Slaxx lynch either. Seems I'd be better off looking at Nico's VCs than a players. In addition to my own concerns about Slaxx, several others have made their own doubts known. But I'll go ahead and drop if for the moment.

I've looked over the Bub wagon (for reason other than his answering inside the quotes) and can't find much wrong with any of the reasons.

@Charter, you voted Bub here Post #190

..
I support this Bub wagon, as well, since his double standard he applies to Slaxx reeks of scumbuddies.

Help me out and point to that? I've been going over Bub's posts. Some of them are big and I probably missed something you didn't.

Unvote

Not going to replace a vote tonight (too fried from a long day) but I probably will after Charter points that out. I've obviously missed something.

As to others in the thread, I think Parama did have a good point about Xine not L-1ing boberz and voting Parama instead. Unlike the way I took exception to Slaxx putting boberz at L-1, Xine actually had some pretty well thought out reasoning.

@Parama, If I read your reasoning correctly, you think that Xine FOSed a scumbuddy and voted a townie. Then bub came in chainsaw defended a scumbuddy as well?

[boberz]

Reading this apparently I have about 7 scumbuddies. Ludicrous.

[charter]

Help me out and point to that? I've been going over Bub's posts. Some of them are big and I probably missed something you didn't.

How Bub went off on CES for opportunistic voting right after Slaxx put Boberz at L-1 for essentially no reason and Bub didn't mention that. That's just one reason I'm suspicious of Bub, I'm not muddying the waters with more trivial things though, that's indicative of them being scumbuddies.

[Slaxx]

Lowell never asked me a question, he just said I was attacking lurkers but voted someone who was trying. Just because they are trying doesn't make them scummy.

I don't know how else to explain either question. You seem pretty intent on not accepting anything I say.

[Slaxx]

You guys are making a huge deal out of L-1.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I want everyone to give 3 scum reads and 3 town reads in their next post.

boberz, Xine, Oso
Lowell, DemonHybrid, Parama (You are making a surprising amount of sense.)

At the time of this post, you had been asked by at least two different people to explain your blatant bandwagon and you still didn't answer here. Why?

I just looked it up and I can't find any questions addressed to me between the vote and post 108. And the original vote-post is fairly self-contained in terms of what it means.

Oh, you mean the *hops*? So you admit you just want to bandwagon without care or concern?

Pretty much. I'm old school.

Why didn't you say this the first time? Also, the fifth vote? Not the fourth? Is the fourth vote not a bandwagon? Is the sixth vote to late? You make zero sense here.

I didn't think it would be necessary to mention it as it should be self-evident, really. Also, there were 4 votes on him at the time; I would've gladly put on a fourth or sixth vote but that's not how the world works, my friend.

[Bub Bidderskins]

[quote-"xvart"]Bub - for the love of god please do not insert text responses inside quotes. It makes it impossible to read and even more impossible to reply to.

I love God, too.

[/quote]

Wow, there's been a lot to digest since I've last posted. I won't be able to get all of it now, but thankfully tomorrow is saturday.

just looked it up and I can't find any questions addressed to me between the vote and post 108. And the original vote-post is fairly self-contained in terms of what it means.

What your post means is that you just shamelessly jumped on the biggest bandwagon of the day. Also:

Also, Cognito Ergo Sum, don't think I've forgotted about you. You still haven't explained why you are currently voting for the biggest wagon. Please ammend this.

You were technically right, this wasn't a question; it was a command. If you want it phrased as a question, I can do that.

Why did you vote for Boberz?
Why are you still voting Boberz?
Why are being so difficult for the town?

There, now you have no excuse.

unvote, vote Bub

Vote explanation fail. Would you like me to phrase my accusation as a question or an imperitive sentence?

As for Bub, he makes a quick OMGUS call out, which is a rather easy look into scumhunting, and not very sound. I don't like how his posts have switched from mostly questions in the beginning, and my vote will stay where it is.

So you don't like how I'm playing now, eh?

And I agree with Slaxx that Bub seems like he's trying to mediate as scum; asking questions I don't like much.

unvote, vote: Bub Bidderskins

Well, it looks like you didn't think that earlier. Let me get this strait:

~You don't like me when I "mediate" and "ask questions"
-and yet-
~You don't like "how my posts have switched"

You've got the worst case of tunnel vision I've ever seen.

Question: Are you voting for me now just because you don't like my play style?