I'd like to apologize at the beginning of this for it being such a mammoth of a post.
Ok, first I'll respond to the meta thing:
I don't really know if I can answer for how I look in meta. I mean, every game is different and I don't think I'm really the best person to answer how I looked in that game to Taz. Honestly, it's generally my feeling that I'd be a little less careful in general as scum because I know the alignments of the other players in the game, so I'd be more inclined to attack someone in an all-out manner. As town (like in this game), I have a tendency to turtle and not want to make any strong statements on the alignments of others in the game. Especially after I help mislynch someone (see: my perceived wishy-washiness after the ABR lynch [post 166]).
Honestly I think it'd be more helpful if people OTHER than me were to give you an answer on my meta. But I don't know that meta would even be useful in this case because I only have one recent completed game, and I don't think that's really enough information to tell you "how I act" as scum or town.
fine, moving on....
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The LMP/Incognito-driven case on me:
This point really bugs me
Incognito wrote:LynchMePls hasn't been the paragon of townieness in my eyes, but I've liked his Untrod Tripod-hate
Why? Because I said way back in post 133 that LMP is tunneling me, and while tunneling isn't
always
bad, I think in this case it is.
What I'm going to do next is repost every single thing LMP has had to say about me
Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.
Vote: untrod tripod
Translation: UT is scum because he's wishy-washy and made a post that I thought didn't say anything
Asked and never answered. Please answer this UT.
Still love my vote. I'm sympathetic to an ABR wagon though, for the "hammer".
Translation: I still think UT is scum because he didn't answer a question I asked
My original point wasn't that you weren't posting, its that you were saying a lot of words without actually taking a stance on anything. Interesting to note that you thought my vote on you was because you weren't posting and that you have since changed that though.
This is just kind of nonsensical, imo, and you can read my post 133 for more on what I had to say on the matter
I think Untrod Tripod is scum, but apparently no one else agrees or even feels the need to comment, and he seems reluctant to answer my questions, so I'm announcing my willingness to hammer ABR.
Translation: I think UT is scum because he's scum. Also he's wishy washy, and I didn't like his answers.
UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.
Translation: UT is wishy-washy, and therefore scum.
Wow, I'm just going to have to get used to hating your posting style I guess. More wishy-washy words like "I think Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist" and "Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC...". Do you ever commit to anything? And do you have a link to a recent scum game for me?
Translation: Your playstyle sucks.
Oh, and what does it mean when someone "twitches" your scumdar. Is that more than a ping? Lower than a tap? Inbetween a flip and pull?
Translation: Your playstyle sucks.
Thank god, sanity has been brought to this game. I've been barking up this tree for awhile with absolutely 0 help.
Unvote Vote: Untrod Tripod
Translation: Someone is finally validating my tunneling! I will pretend it's made sense all along!
What is there to love there, exactly? In his posts on me, he's pretty much said "you're wishy-washy, therefore you're scummy". You know what, previous to now, I was pretty much ignoring LMP's tunneling. I figured it had a purpose, which was to see if I would crack under being told over and over that my playstyle is bad. You know what? I don't think I'm being "wishy washy", I think I'm just more cautious than LMP likes (if his pressure on me is in fact not just a ploy to get a reaction).
My thoughts are that if you like LMP's "case" on me, you either didn't read it, or you're hoping no one else will. He's pretty much done nothing in terms of scumhunting me other than saying that I'm wishy-washy and therefore scum or insulting my playstyle.
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Alright, now that we're past that... I'd like to address some of the other things Incognito has presented in his case against me
Incognito wrote:If you thought scum was likely on that wagon, why not try and figure out who that scum is? Why throw a side comment like this and not follow it up?
Tell you what, I'll go through the game and call everyone out on every single thing they've ever said and not followed up on. Oh wait, that would be a total dick move and wouldn't help us catch scum. Yeah, I made a comment that I didn't follow up on. Here's a thought: maybe I didn't think that it was time yet to look on that wagon for scum. Did you consider that maybe I was saying that if we looked at the blaze wagon, the ABR wagon and whatever went on today, we could probably find a correlation and/or telling vote patterns? Yeah, that was a rhetorical question and I'm really trying to say that I think that is a weaksauce point to call me out on.
Christ. This isn't hard, people, which is why I don't get why you and Untrod can't figure this out. As I said, I found you both scummy individually. The typical thing to do when you find people scummy individually is to look and see if the people make sense as buddies together, and imo, you did for the most part because of your lack of interactions. The only thing that gave me pause on that was Untrod's recent thoughts about you - my expectation was that if he was scum with you, he might just bus you at this point rather than defend you considering the fact that you already reached L-1, etc. So at this point, I'm thinking either you're both scum or one of you is scum. Given what I've read, I feel pretty confident that there is scum in at least one of {Untrod, Zodiark}, and I'm trying to figure out which is the more likely.
I think I covered this a little in an earlier post, but since you rebuked Zodiark about this a few posts ago, I think I should revisit. So what you're saying is that you found us scummy individually, so what you did is see if we could be buddies together. Which it seemed like we probably are because we didn't have much to say to each other... Let's go back to the post that Zodiark and I commented on that this is related to
After reading both Untrod Tripod's and Zodiark's play individually and then trying to put their play together in the big picture, I really thought I saw a strong potential for the two of them to be scum with one another. Their interactions are pretty textbook "two-scum in a game" behavior; they barely mention each other, they haven't voted for one another (aside from Zodiark's RVS vote on UT), and they've had similar suspicions on people who I think stand a stronger chance of being town than scum at this point.
I'd be fine with this except Untrod's latest post where he states that he doesn't think Zodiark is scum worries the shit out of me - I'd kind of expect an Untrod-scum to go into hyper-bus mode at that point considering the fact that Zodiark is at L-1 with seemingly no way out of it. If they're scum together, he could be going for the "oh shit, I was just wrong about him" route, but it's still something that concerns me.
Ok, I'll give you that we might have misinterpreted what you said, but your point was after reading us and trying to put us together (and subsequently finding hardly anything to comment on) you figured that we must both be scum. This looks like you're saying that the fact that I didn't have anything to say to Zodiark is a scumtell on me, which really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Also, in reading your comments about why Zodiark and I are scum, I really didn't find a whole lot, and it seemed like a reasonable leap that you were therefore saying that a big part of of your cause was our [lack of] interaction. I really don't think that makes a whole lot of sense, but then again, I don't think your case on me makes a whole lot of sense, so maybe I'm missing something big. Also I find it weird that you said "yeah, you didn't bus him, which I think is what you would do, but I still think you're scum". There's no connection you can comment on and I didn't scum-bus him...so obviously we're scum....right...
Incognito wrote:I could respond to that whole post in great dealer than this, but I get the feeling most of you wouldn't read it.
This isn't directly related to my case, but I find this kind of statement really annoying. I'm assuming that everyone else in the game is going to read my whole post, and you should expect they'll read whatever you write too. The implication here is "yeah, I could make a much better case, but it'd be lost on you people, so forget it". You're implying that you have a lot more on me than I think you actually do.
Incognito wrote:A lot of your other responses and questions can be explained by probability and my thoughts on how I'd expect scum to act in certain situations. Obviously scum can act contrary to my expectations, but I'm just putting out my thoughts with respect to it and explaining why I think that way. Dr P's playstyle and his "my way or the highway" kind of attitude made it seem perfectly reasonable to me for him to request replacement in that kind of situation.
The content of his posting didn't necessarily raise any huge flags for me either, so I'm going with the idea that he genuinely was frustrated
and was likely town as a result
. Could scum get frustrated too? Yes, obviously. Contextually though, I think his replacement request rings more town-sided than scum-sided there.
Yeah, like I said, this is a your mileage may vary situation. I think that asking to replace after acting like a raging dickhead and being called scummy says bad things about your alignment. Let's go to my bolding, you're saying that because what he had to say didn't seem scummy to you (this, I think, is the source of our disagreement on the matter) and he got frustrated, he was town. Let's say hypothetically you thought he looked scummy, would the frustration then ring scum to you? If so, I'd have to say that I am kind of curious about why you are so sure of that slot's alignment. To me, TDC's play has been slightly town to null, and Dr Pepper's play was pretty scummy, so I am reading the frustration and replacement as scumtell.
Also, rather than saying "a lot of your responses can be explained by probability", why don't you actually just answer them?
Incognito wrote:Even if we ignore the fact that I haven't even buddied up to LMP here (I mean, I agreed with his suspicions of you, but I've also clearly said that he's currently one of my unknowns; buddying up would require me to call him town and everything), I have a tendency to buddy up regardless of my alignment.
Ok, so buddying is your tendency. Fun. Doesn't mean your intentions for doing so are innocent. You don't have to call him town to buddy up to him. Agreeing with his tunneling on me would be a fine way to do that. He's really latched onto me like a pit bull, and I think it would be a reasonable assumption that if you just get on the wagon with him, he'll have a positive reaction to that. That's buddying, imo, to jump on someone else's case when it's been such a huge part of their game (9 or so posts out of 30).
Incognito wrote:Whether or not it's easy to tunnel is irrelevant; what is relevant is whether or not said tunneling is founded or not
Correct. What I think is relevant is why you think LMP's tunneling on me is founded.
You know what, I'm actually not sure YOUR case on me is all that founded. Let's go back to the post where I think you basically have outlined your argument against me:
Incognito wrote:Untrod Tripod has bugged me because I've gotten the impression that he isn't really pushing the game along. Post 60 is a major major fence-sitting post; this was pointed out by LynchMePls, and I agree with him - it doesn't do much more than state the obvious, it doesn't take a stance on the possible alignments of the two debaters (Dr P and podium):
So fence-sitting is scummy? Ok, I can see why you and LMP are natural allies. I've said I think Dr Pepper is scummy since then, so restating that point seems...um...pointless.
Incognito wrote:There was an obvious disconnect, too, with his own description of his play and how he played here towards the end of D1; he claimed to be this cautious player who doesn't like to jump to conclusions so fast, but he was rather quick to throw the first vote out on ABR when he concluded with stating that he found ABR's play to be "anti-town". Not scummy but anti-town.
Again, you really can't have it both ways. Either I'm not cautious about my votes, or I'm wishy washy. Considering that ABR was the one bandwagon I've been a part of, I'd say I'm neither. I waited for a player to do something scummy, and then I called them on it and voted for them. I'm not talking about the "anti-town" thing again.
Incognito wrote: I believe it was podium who pointed out the problem with UT's 6th post too; the question along the bottom had already been answered, so I don't really see the purpose of it there. And considering the fact that it came only after being interrogated/voted by LynchMePls, it gave me the feeling that you were trying to appease him by "appearing active".
So I asked a pointless question. I forgot the whole "asking one pointless question is a major scumtell" school of scumhunting. It makes such perfect sense, after all.
That's pretty much all you've had to say in terms of "what makes UT scum", and you've been just asking other people to agree with you since then. Upon review of your posts and points about me, I can begrudgingly admit that you have slightly more of a case than LMP, but that's not saying much.
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