Mini 1036 - DEFCON Mafia - Over

[VasudeVa]

....

What?

WHAT?

That doesn't even PRETEND to make sense.

So, you've got Radar and you saw Enigma do nothing on a night with no kills and that means ??

You crossed out Radar in your stupid case BECAUSE no one died. I'm pointing it out to you right now.

I will not say my results until Enigma gives me the go-signal.

[Calcifer]

Fuck. You know Spy, it is soo hard to argue with you in two games using two accounts.

::::

....

What?

WHAT?

That doesn't even PRETEND to make sense.

So, you've got Radar and you saw Enigma do nothing on a night with no kills and that means ??

You crossed out Radar in your stupid case BECAUSE no one died. I'm pointing it out to you right now.

I will not say my results until Enigma gives me the go-signal.

(Post merged on to the proper account. --AGM)

[SpyreX]

Yea I sure did because WATCHING SOMEONE DIE OR BEING THE COP are the pieces of information that = scum.

[Calcifer]

You're taking that single vote way too seriously. It was a vote intended to find out Enigma's alignment. IS IT SOO HARD TO THINK THAT? You are assuming that I got an OMG ENIGMA IS SCUM result based on ONE fucking vote?

You are wrong. Stop it.

[AlmasterGM]

[Day 2, Vote Count 3 - Liberty or Death]

"There was never a good war or a bad peace." --Benjamin Franklin




[Votes]

AurorusVox

(0)

Calcifer

(3) - SpyreX, Zhero, AurorusVox

Doombunny9

(1) - Percy

Enigma

(0)

Faraday

(0)

Hinduragi

(3) - RedCoyote, Calcifer, SocioPath

Percy

(0)

RedCoyote

(0)

SocioPath

(1) - Doombunny9

SpyreX

(0)

Zhero

(2) - Enigma, Faraday

Not Voting

(1) - Hinduragi

[Activity]

The deadline is 27 September at 11pm EST. No prods currently needed.

Hinduragi

is V/LA through Sunday, 19 September 2010.

[Zhero]

I was reaction-fishing.

@AV: I(Vas) move my vote when I want/need to. I do it regardless of my alignment(Well, most of the time.). Votes have two uses: Pressuring/gathering info, and lynching. I'm using it for the gathering info(since we're way away from D/L anyway.). It's a reaction fishing thing.

You're taking that single vote way too seriously. It was a vote intended to find out Enigma's alignment.

So, the moral here is to just ignore everything you do?

I support the claim, for the record. Confirmation that your 'role-realted info' isn't just a poor gambit would be nice, and more importantly it means we can move on from that conversation instead of it stalling interminably.

You are assuming that I got an OMG ENIGMA IS SCUM result based on ONE fucking vote?

No, the following exchange also helps:

That's a nice surprise change in meta. Why weren't your trying to scum hunt/vote yesterday? You conveniently voted in RVS and didn't move your vote. Did your scum buddies tell you to pick up your game over night?
Your ISO is mainly fluff, you really don't attack anyone or pursue any leads and contains alot of game theory talk.
What all of a sudden has made you suspicious of me? And why that list of people in particular?
^Answer my questions and I'll answer yours.

Role related information. *whistles*
If it hasn't been clear yet, I have an active ability, so.
That's all you need to know for now.

You know, the part where when asked for rationale behind your vote, you cite role-related information.

[Doombunny9]

Calci is acting like silly scum right now.

Unvote

for the time being. I need to hear more explaination from Calcifier before I decide where my vote goes.

[Percy]

Re: Doombunny

- My central charge was that Sociopath seemed like a push for a mislynch of a lurker. A key part of that is inconsistency in lurker-hunting. The idea that SocioPath is "scummy in his lurkerness" and Hinduragi is (presumably) "townie in his lurkerness" needs to be explored, imo. But check out his attitude to Hindu:

Meh, neutral reads mostly. He's never really said anything that stuck out to me that was either townie or scummy if anything I'd say he's scum because he may just be trying to stay under the radar and for lurking but its not really all that much to go on.

Now read it again and pretend he's talking about Sociopath. Why does Sociopath get the attention, but Hindu doesn't?

Doombunny still reads scum to me. His recent unvote, testing the waters for a Calcifer lynch rubs me the wrong way too.

---

I asked RedCoyote what his scumread of Hinduragi was, and he ended up voting for Hindu. He noted his D1 read as follows:

[

Town

]------AV-Percy--Faraday-Hindu--Enigma--Andrius-[∙]-Doombunny-Spyrex--SP-Zhero----Elscouta------[

Scum

]

I searched the entire post for a reason why RedCoyote thought Hindu had a "strong first day", but I couldn't find it. I thought, at the time, that his read on Hinduragi was very generous. Now, there's this complete change in read.

Essentially, it seems like it boils down to a lurker vote on a person Red used to have a townread of. This vote sticks out as very scummy to me. He didn't comment on Doombunny after my post, but he did comment on AV's case:

Also I think your Doombunny case has merit

...so why is he voting Hinduragi again?

His dancing around the WIFOM issue regarding the dropped message doesn't make me feel better, either.

---

The Zhero message is almost certainly intended to be seen by the town. Beyond that, we can conclude nothing about Zhero's alignment directly. But why would the scum want to suggest that Zhero is scum? Blergh, I don't know.

---

So it looks like there are some players who are unwilling to move on from Calcifer's softclaim and want him to claim to clear things up. I don't think the town will gain

any

useful information with regards to alignment from this discussion, but it will let the scum know who has what ability. I do not think SpyreX's case has much merit, and it reads to me like an excuse to fish for role info while maintaining the Townie High Ground.

This drama has taken most of the town's attention for most of the day, and we've learnt nothing useful. If you claim, Calcifer, then make sure it's in the town's best interests.

---

I think the scum are in {Doombunny9, SpyreX, Faraday, RedCoyote, Sociopath}. SocioPath-scum doesn't make sense to me, but he could be the SK.

[Calcifer]

Actually, I've been thinking the same. I'm in too many games with Spy. He's blatantly rolefishing now because he thinks he can get away with it due to his reputation as a tunnel-ly and aggressive player. It's just real difficult to lynch this guy because everybody likes his style.

If I had something awesome to claim, I would have claimed it 5 fucking pages ago as scum(due to fear of lynch which was real close some time ago) OR town(due to awesome result.) instead of dragging it on like this. How hard is it to get a clue?

You know, the part where when asked for rationale behind your vote, you cite role-related information.

I think I've explained this but OKAY since you apparently like to hear me say the same shit with different wording.

It was a gut vote with reasons of a null but suspicious result with the intent to reaction fish to find out Enigma's alignment.

-Vas

[RedCoyote]

I searched the entire post for a reason why RedCoyote thought Hindu had a "strong first day", but I couldn't find it. I thought, at the time, that his read on Hinduragi was very generous. Now, there's this complete change in read.

Essentially, it seems like it boils down to a lurker vote on a person Red used to have a townread of. This vote sticks out as very scummy to me.

Agreed with him in post 156 (except for the sub talk, which I noted, but I'm considering that null given that there probably aren't 10 scum in the game), agreed with his post 245 (I note this by proxy of Elscouta), agree with his voting of Elscouta, comfortable with his activity and general agression/high level of activity (check out page 7/8)... what's the problem here? Hindu has completely dropped off from this level, which is consistent with scum at times (changing playstyles for no rhyme or reason, usually in the form of activity or to get a lynch to go through).

I mean, I didn't except you to read my notes, but if you say that you did, you should've been able to understand all of these assumptions.

He didn't comment on Doombunny after my post, but he did comment on AV's case:

[...]

...so why is he voting Hinduragi again?

Sorry, only a little QT drop and very polarizing reaction (Calcifer's) has happened since. I'll willingly acknowledge that Doombunny is on my backburner, mostly because I think there are bigger, more pressing issues at the forefront here.

His dancing around the WIFOM issue regarding the dropped message doesn't make me feel better, either.

And your reaction is better? Come on, Percy.

[SpyreX]

I ended up home way late.

I STILL 100% absolutely want this cleared up. Pro tip: You can't call it rolefishing if you're the one to cast the line.

[Calcifer]

Not necessarily. Andy (a serial breadcrumber/softclaimer guy with known meta + pictures in his wiki)cast the line. He brought me in and let me do whatever. I stopped casting the line. You're still pushing for it. Therefore, your threats are now considered role-fishing since you are threatening me for role information and I am unwilling(despite my hydra-mate's earlier actions).

[SpyreX]

Gamble hard on me not having a nuke then. Your call.

I'm really not stoked with Percy coming in with the "ohhh he's rolefishing" but if we want to dance this dance we can. You KNOW I'm not going to stop until its all laid out and, at this point, its going to take a miracle for me to be convinced of anything aside from some kind of teehee business.

[Faraday]

Yea I sure did because WATCHING SOMEONE DIE OR BEING THE COP are the pieces of information that = scum.

Yeah, I can see what SPyreX is on about here. It's awful bizzare but I really don't think it's any indication that calcifier is scum. Spyre what do you think Andyscum gains by coming out with that sort of information when it was clearly not incriminating at this point? If he knows Enigma's got an active power/power role why bother outing it as scum? That's why I think his motivations don't make sense as scum.

Zhero's mostly gut for now, I don't really like his reaction to that faked message either.

I'm reasonably happy with Av/Enigma/Calci atm for town. Percy looks pretty town too although I don't know why he doesn't think Socio can be scum? Any reason apart from the message thing?

I need to look at Doombunny and red who I've largely ignored up untill now do to being in too many games.

[Faraday]

Never mind doombunny just changed his avatar, that explains why I'd not remembered anything from him.

[Enigma]

Firstly I would prefer if my target remained unrevealed.
I've already given a good idea of the results, I said it was one of the people on the list Andy posted.
That's enough information already, and I don't see what outing who the exact target was will help achieve just yet apart from pressure on me to reveal what ability I have and what result I returned.

Spyrex's insistent behavior regarding Calicifer makes me feel uncomfortable and I'm not really sure exactly what it is he hopes to gain from it.
I have a feeling that Spyrex doesn't like having his name on the list of people I potentially targeted and he want's closure to make sure he wasn't the one targeted.

Unvote

VOTE: Spyrex

[Calcifer]

Well that settles it! F-off Spy!

Quite frankly, I seriously think that Spy never gets the attention he requires in ANY game he's in. He always tunnels like a motherfucker(null, meta on him) but I now find this stupid tunnel to be a blatant rolefish(quite similarly, he's acting like this in [REDACTED] and I think he's scum there too but I'll stop there because pleasedontmodkillme).

I mean, Picture this! You are scum, and you can harrass a Townie into giving out role-related information AND easily get away with it. What do you do? You do exactly as Spy is doing.

I won't let you get away with this. NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

Vote: SpyreX

[SpyreX]

Yeah, I can see what SPyreX is on about here. It's awful bizzare but I really don't think it's any indication that calcifier is scum. Spyre what do you think Andyscum gains by coming out with that sort of information when it was clearly not incriminating at this point? If he knows Enigma's got an active power/power role why bother outing it as scum? That's why I think his motivations don't make sense as scum.

What does "I have role related information" gain a scum at this point?

A shot at an easy mislynch with a side of getting the actual role to come out.

And then you have this stuff:

Well that settles it! F-off Spy!

Quite frankly, I seriously think that Spy never gets the attention he requires in ANY game he's in. He always tunnels like a motherfucker(null, meta on him) but I now find this stupid tunnel to be a blatant rolefish(quite similarly, he's acting like this in [REDACTED] and I think he's scum there too but I'll stop there because pleasedontmodkillme).

I mean, Picture this! You are scum, and you can harrass a Townie into giving out role-related information AND easily get away with it. What do you do? You do exactly as Spy is doing.

I won't let you get away with this. NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

Vote: SpyreX

I harassed him to give out role related information?

That's the spin you're trying to give.

I want this nice and clear.

Because, in the actual world, YOU went "I've got role related information" and I went ohh hell no and it went from there. And, with multiple opportunities to rectify this garbage you've instead opted to over and over stall it out. Which, in fact, gets it closer and closer to defcon 1 which *gasp* the scum are waiting for with baited breath.

Every step of the way this has been like pulling teeth and I absolutely don't understand it. The doc opts to not claim and dies. You go "I'm A ROLE!" but not what role then go "I'm RADAR but not what actually happened." Then, chucklehead responds with "You're AFRAID of my POWERS" which makes even less sense.

This is pants on head in a normal game. In a game where there is

no correlation of ability and alignment

it is absolutely baffling.

Even MORE awesome is the simple fact that we've got a large chunk of this game on cruise control now because I'm not about to give this up until you fess up. This vote was a fantastic move that's going to have excellent ramifications for you I promise.

So, on that offchance you're town and this was done to PROTECT THE SECRETS which is tech and all don't even begin to get all /feelings at the fact I called you out on this junk play that could have been EASILY rectified.

[Doombunny9]

407- Have you even been reading my posts lately?

1. I have said if anything, I'd say i'm getting very slight scum reads from Hindu for lurking, not townie or even no reads.
2. You don't even seem to know the main reason I've been voting Socio which really, is just kind of sad considering I've been repeating it for a while. Lurking is not the main reason. My main reasoning was of the lack of content, contributions, or explainations in socios posts. Hindu at least provides this.

Either one of three things is going on here.

a. Percy isn't even reading my posts properly which is kind of funny when his vote is on me XD
b. Percy is having difficulty understanding my posts correctly for whatever reason
c. Percy is only picking out stuff from my posts that benefit him which is just outright scummy.

Also, all I wanted from Calcifier was for him to clarify one thing:

Andrius claimed his vote on Enigma was on role based information. He then more or less denies this and says it was based on gut reads

@Calcifier (preferably andrius but if vas can explain it just as well then go ahead)- Why lie and say that your vote on Enigma was based on role related information?

[Doombunny9]

Also one more thing:

@Percy- Where DID you come up with the idea that my socio vote was mainly due to lurking reasons?

[Hinduragi]

If we were scum(and have daytalk), we'd(well, He'd.) make up a damn better excuse than that.

Scum and town can have shitty reasons for voting.

Filler = 'making a post for the sake of posting', which is scummy in it's own way. Everyone probably knew what you said, and you're just saying it to appear helpful(and failing) FMPOV

I was trying to promote discussion since others were indirectly discouraging it. That, plus I wasn't sure what I was supposed to say.

Which was exactly what I'm accusing you in #71. Also, you're making someone look suspicious for something that isn't inherently suspicious. Scummy.

So voting someone and them never responding to what you're voting them for isn't suspicious?

More info is bad if scum gets info. True, we now know that scum probably has the sub w/c is good. But if Town GOT the sub, and the sub claimed, They now know who to NK. It's good NOW since we got that info but since Town had a higher chance of getting the sub when nobody knew, it was inherently bad at that time.

Yeah, but that was when I thought we had a doc around. I weighed my odds of doc & sub being in scum hands and, let me tell you, those odds were very low. I'll take my chances with good odds.

My accusation of your #156 is similar to #71: Filler posting. More filler posts = scummier

What is your definition of filler posts? I'd love to know. My 156 was to inform them to stop that theory discussion because it was a null tell.

I was pertaining to your @Enigma tidbit at that post. You were accussing Andy as scum feigning ignorance

I told Enigma Andy was not automatically town for that. Andy could be town not reading rules or scum not reading rules/feigning ignorance.

If you were scum, that little manuever was possible with daytalk. Of course, at this point I'm convinced you're scum so I can call out you're possible scum moves.

So misreading the vote count is now scummy. Yep, that makes sense. See, the great thing about your entire argument is you've called me out based on speculation, not logic.

Real scummy, misreping my attacks on you by saying it wasn't reasoned when it was DAMN WELL REASONED.

I didn't see very good reasoning in your attacks, hence why I'm calling you out on them.

Well. We learned 2 things from this:
1) Zhero is scum.
2) CAPS LOCK PLAYER is scum. Either SpyreX or Sociopath, probably.
3) WIFOM?

No. We learned 0 things from this. The entire dropped post could be a frame. We can't tell. The best thing to do is leave it as null.

Spyre, don't nuke-threat anyone in here like that. It will bring up ALOT of wifom.

...Ok, VV, wtf?

Note: The Stealth Bomber is a shared activated ability and cannot be detected.}

DEFCON 2 – Further increase in force readiness, but less than maximum readiness – Two weeks or until lynch.
a) All non-NATO factions gain the following shared activated ability: Stealth Bomber {Kill target player}

A.k.a. it can't be used on N1. Am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say here?

But why would the scum want to suggest that Zhero is scum?

The better answer is that they want to focus on him and prevent a currently popular lynch. Again, we can't know this for sure. We should definitely ignore that drop for the time being, though.

I don't really like Spyrex pushing for the nuke threat but Andrius' reasons for voting Engima based on "role-related info" were shit too. wtf@the spyrex vote from calcifer. First, I'm scum, then zero is scum, then I'm scum again, then Spyrex is scum. Oh, let me guess, I'm going to be scum again?

Please don't buy this crap

Ok, now what's up with the AtE?

Anyways, I was looking through possible scum, when I read this:

Vote: Calcifer

-2 posts later-

I really thought he had a strong first day, but he's been kind of absent from anything going on today. Well, it gives me another suspect at least.

Oh, wait, and I think I may be able to free up a vote. Calcifer seems a little more intent on clarification now, so I think I'll back off like Enigma did.

Unvote; vote: Hinduragi

What? You backed off Calcifer because he's clarifying something? I didn't see much clarification because the entire vote is still not explained. Why mention the "like Enigma did" part?

Then you give some excellent content as to your read. Yup, "active lurking" vote. Nice one. Let's just ignore the fact that I may actually have stuff to do.

I'll willingly acknowledge that Doombunny is on my backburner, mostly because I think there are bigger, more pressing issues at the forefront here.

Pray tell, what did Doombunny do that gives him the pleasure of being on your backburner?

Your vote seems like an excellent place scum would love to be. It's only more accuentated that you've been following discussion and have other suspects but leave your vote where it is for the simple reason that you think I'm active lurking, which I'm not.

[Calcifer]

Because, in the actual world, YOU went "I've got role related information" and I went ohh hell no and it went from there. And, with multiple opportunities to rectify this garbage you've instead opted to over and over stall it out. Which, in fact, gets it closer and closer to defcon 1 which *gasp* the scum are waiting for with baited breath.

No no no! How hard is it for you to understand that the player in question has a goddamn history doing that shit you are accusing him off, and now I'm doing damage control. You are making the damage WORSE. AND you're getting away with it with this tunnel.

Every step of the way this has been like pulling teeth and I absolutely don't understand it. The doc opts to not claim and dies. You go "I'm A ROLE!" but not what role then go "I'm RADAR but not what actually happened." Then, chucklehead responds with "You're AFRAID of my POWERS" which makes even less sense.

It's more like "I'm RADAR! *MULTIPLE PERSONALIY TRANSFORMATION SCENE* But I'm not telling~"

Even MORE awesome is the simple fact that we've got a large chunk of this game on cruise control now because I'm not about to give this up until you fess up. This vote was a fantastic move that's going to have excellent ramifications for you I promise.

WHAT? So, you're reaction fishing with the vote and threatening with a nuke because 'Dude, I'm town, this is good. Trust me!'.

Soo many things wrong with this statement. I'm happy with this vote!

So, on that offchance you're town and this was done to PROTECT THE SECRETS which is tech and all don't even begin to get all /feelings at the fact I called you out on this junk play that could have been EASILY rectified.

Easy rectification means full claiming. I am against full claiming this early especially since the result is not incriminating(Actually, all radar results will not be incriminating, from what I understand.).

Also, bullshit. You are excusing this stupid tunnel as 'easy rectification' for your blatant rolefish.

Easy rectification would be!
Spy: OKAY CALCIFER FESS UP!
Calc: NO! NO NO NO NO NO!!
Spy: Okay! Sheesh! I stop now and prevent further damage!

NOT:

Spy: OKAY CALCIFER FESS UP!
Calc: NOO!!
Spy: FUCK YOUU WITH A GODAMN NUKE.

It doesn't take a genius to see I am unwilling. But nooo~ You had to bring out the big guns! Seriously, How THAT 'easy rectification?'

@Calcifier (preferably andrius but if vas can explain it just as well then go ahead)- Why lie and say that your vote on Enigma was based on role related information?

It was NOT a lie. I DID get information. Enigma DID visit someone(That much has been out anyway). Andy just misinterpreted it.

[Doombunny9]

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying.

Vote: Socio:

Nothing new has changed. If Spyre keeps up with what he's been doing I wouldn't mind switching to her if its near deadline and socio isn't getting lynched.

[SpyreX]

Ohh doom that's some bad news there and if other things weren't going on I'd be hitting you with a hammer.

On the flipside Hindi looks good.

BUT, back to the fray:

Spy: OKAY CALCIFER FESS UP!
Calc: NOO!!
Spy: FUCK YOUU WITH A GODAMN NUKE.

Every. Time.

I will do this every time. EVERY TIME. BECAUSE WHAT YOU DID IS BRAIN MELTING AND TRYING TO SPIN IT AS OHH SNAP I'M CATCHING THE ROLEFISHER WHO HAS THE FISH JUMP ON SHORE THE SINNER IS GARBAGE.

But, at least you got right to the crux:

It was NOT a lie. I DID get information. Enigma DID visit someone(That much has been out anyway).

Andy just misinterpreted it.

SEE THOSE BOLDED WORDS

THEM

THOSE ARE WHAT I WANT EXPLAINED. HOW IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD DO YOU TAKE ANYTHING FROM WHAT YOU HAVE SAID HAPPENED AND GET SCUMS BE HERE.

THAT IS THE ISSUE

THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CRUX

NO IT CAN NOT BE RESOLVED UNLESS YOU COME CLEAN

THIS IS NOT HARD

YOU DID THIS. NOT ME.

REMEMBER THIS.

[Calcifer]

I am running out of curse words to justifiably show how frustrated I am with you right now.

THE VOTE DOES NOT MEAN SCUM. Andy's 'role related information *whistles*' DOES NOT MEAN SCUM. WE/I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT ENIGMA IS SCUM BASED OFF THE RESULT WE GOT. He thought that the results were suspicious, but it was null over all. The results weren't important, it was Andy's gut feel from that Enigma was scum and was using the results to test waters(in which, Enigma acted real Town from what I'm seeing.). THAT'S IT. NOTHING ELSE. I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.