NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[Robbnva]

[Wraith]

Holy crap did I just get accused of tunneling by the guy who has done nothing else for the last day and a bit but tunnel on wraith?

Let me put this simply. Wraith is a terrible lynch. Frankly I'm simply astonished that you are so convinced by it - I literally cannot understand your viepoint. Like, at all. Frank was not a great lynch either. Both are simply players playing badly. Prozac is a player comitting scumtells. This is a

clear and obvious difference

. And you're a good player, so what in the name of Woden's Beard is going on?

He's a scummy claimed vanilla who has come very close to lynch. And if our mysterious second killer was going to do the honor, he would have last night. The only way Wraith is going to die is by lynch, and if we put it off we're only delaying the inevitable.

And this? Clear bullshit. We should lynch him because scum won't kill him? Seriously? Are you even listening to yourself any more? ARGH this game.

1) Yes. You're tunneling. I'm doing some as well, sure, but I'm also looking hard at Robb.

2) I don't see these scumtells. I honestly don't. I see Wraith, who has actively detracted from the town since D1. If he was bad town, he'd be like Mysterio (and yes, Frank) and trying to contribute.

3) Bunny has it right. As long as he is not lynched, he's going to be a scummy distraction. He's going to continue to be a detriment to the town. There is no way short of cop confirmation that he will be cleared. If he's not lynched today, he'll be a distraction tomorrow. Repeat ad nauseum. Way to misrepresent me, dude.

The problem with that is that the claimed cop refuses to investigate me when he has the chance and then wants to lynch me. I think it's pretty clear what the scum setup probably is: Goon, Roleblocker, Godfather. Maybe a second goon or dana being ScumCop. First, votecount analysis:

Votecount 1.4

danakillsu [11] (Shanba, Prozac, Benmage, JDodge, Frank, Wraith, Mysterio, hiphop, nhammen, singersigner, ConfidAnon)
Frank [2] (danakillsu, Xite)
mysterio [2] (flinter, WickedestJr)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UA)
Benmage [1] (Reck)

Not Voting [7] (robbnva, seth, Johnny Rotten, Orochi, Sebguer, Bunnylover, Kise)

24 alive, 13 to lynch, 12 to no lynch.

This is the peak of the dana wagon. Benmage and nhammen are confirmed scum. I strongly suspect a third scum was on this wagon, which in all likelihood is Prozac. Prozac was the second vote and Benmage followed him on.

Votecount 1.11

Frank [13] (Xite, Prozac, danakillsu, UA, singersigner, mysterio, hiphop, robbnva, wraith, Bunnylover, Benmage, Gorrad, Reck)
Singersigner [3] (flinter, DavidParker, Frank)
hiphop [2] (Shanba, nhammen)
Wraith [1] (ConfidAnon)
danakillsu [1] (@.@)
Prozac [1] (WickedestJr)
Rob [1] (Orochi)

Not Voting [2] (Sebguer, Kise)

This is the FrankLynch votecount. Benmage is on it, for confirmed scum. Dana, Prozac and Robbnva are all on it, for probable scum. I don't know what nhammen was trying to do, probably prevent votecount analysis association.

Votecount 2.1

Wraith [3] (Xite, ConfidAnon, danakillsu)
Hiphop [1] (Prozac)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UltimaAvalon)

Not Voting [16] (@.@, Robbnva, Hiphop, Kise, Wickedestjr, Wraith, Mysterio, Singersigner, Shanba, Gorrad, Benmage, Flinter, Orochi, Sebguer, Bunnylover, Reck)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

This is the first votecount on me. Xite and CA had cases against me, dana didn't. And dana was the third on the wagon, a common spot for a scumvote.

Votecount 2.7

Wraith [6] (Gorrad, Mysterio, Hiphop, Benmage, Xite, ConfidAnon)
Mysterio [5] (Flinter, Singersigner, danakillsu, Rob, @.@)
Hiphop [1] (Prozac)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UltimaAvalon)
dana [1] (Reck)
Prozac [1] (Shanba)
Flinter [1] (Wickedestjr)
ConfidAnon [1] (Bunnylover)

Not Voting [4] (Kise, Orochi, Sebguer, Wraith)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

In other news, no bites for replacing Orochi and Sebguer as of right now. Gonna go bump the signup thread and my replacement thread post. Tell your friends to replace, tell your enemies too.

This was after the fake daykill. Dana jumped off my dying wagon and onto the next best thing. After it became clear my wagon was starting up again, he jumped back onto mine.

Votecount 2.19

Mysterio [11] (Flinter, Singersigner, @.@, hiphop, Wickedestjr, Shanba, Lowell, Wraith, UltimaAvalon, Rob, Bunnylover)
Wraith [8] (Gorrad, Mysterio, Benmage, Antihero, danakillsu, DemonHybrid)
Prozac [1] (Kise)
Robbnva [1] (Xite)

Not Voting [2] (My Milked Eek, Prozac)

With 21 alive it will take 11 for a lynch and 11 for a no lynch.

Here is the MysterioLynch votecount. This is a very unusual votecount because out of my top suspects and confirmed scum only Robbnva is on it. The confirmed scum (Benmage) is on my wagon along with Dana, a probable scum. This decreases my suspicion of Robbnva slightly.

Top Suspects, in order:

Dana
Robbnva
Prozac
Bunnylover

I'll start doing WoTs momentarily.

[Flameaxe]

Votecount 3.1

Prozac [3] (Shanba, Demonhybrid, Lowell)
Dana [3] (evilpacman, Wraith, Rob)
Wraith [2] (Gorrad, Dana)
UltimaAvalon [1] (UltimaAvalon)
Rob [1] (Xite)

Not Voting [8] (Hiphop, Kise, Singersigner, Antihero, Flinter, Prozac, My Milked Eek, Bunnylover

With 18 alive it will take 10 to lynch, and 9 to no lynch.

---

Deadline:

Not currently in place.

[danakillsu]

Okay, I had my suspicions of dana as Day 2 dragged on, mostly revolving around the fact that he never really had a reason for voting me beyond what everyone else said, and avoided the question TWICE when I put it to him. This post is what pushed me over the edge:

Inno on Xite was my result. I didn't investigate Wraith because I figured it would be too obvious and scum might be able to affect it somehow (like a lawyer or framer). So I wish to lynch Wraith like we should have yesterday. vote: Wraith

Let me get this straight: you didn't want to investigate me (and therefore prove my innocence) because you thought a scum framer could frame me? And then you want to lynch me anyway despite thinking the MAFIA would frame me?

Vote: danakillsu

Wow, lol. I said Framer OR Lawyer. If you were town and there was a Framer, they would be sure to target you and make you look guilty. If you were scum and there was a Lawyer, they would be sure to target you and make you look guilty. The only ways the Xite result could be wrong are GF and busdriver. Maybe it was the fact that this post garnered votes on you that "pushed you over the edge", hmmm?
@ Xite and Robbnva
Why are you so sure that scum has a Roleblocker? I don't know why anyone would assume this and then vote me because if it. As I mentioned above, there could easily be a busdriver instead.

[Antihero]

I think I'm caught up now (hopefully).

The WIFOM content of the debate about dana not getting blocked or killed is reaching toxic levels. I agree with Xite on that issue; there are likely more power roles out there. That said, dana's play has been quite scummy; and even if he's telling the truth about the "cop" part, he might be leaving out the "mafia role-" part of it.

dana's "concern" about a framer seems faked to me. Wraith is exactly right about dana's logic if he's worried about a framer screwing with his results; and if dana is worried about a GF, then why doesn't that apply to every other investigation? Also, why he targetted Xite puzzles me a bit...

I haven't heard of a role called "lawyer" and I didn't find it in the wiki. Would that role likely be found in a normal game?

After my reread, my top suspects are Singer, Bunnylover, and dana. Why Bunnylover hasn't been wagoned yet is completely beyond me.

VOTE: Bunnylover

[danakillsu]

@Wraith
nhammen is smart enough to avoid votecount analysis and yet votecount analysis proves I'm scum? There something dead wrong with your logic here. If I was scum, I would have qualms about jumping on major wagons all the time. As town, I believe that the other members of the town in this game have had pretty good reasons for voting and so I have voted along with the majority a lot.

[danakillsu]

why is everyone ignoring the fact that I said Lawyer OR Framer? is it just because it's convenient?

[Antihero]

@ Xite and Robbnva
Why are you so sure that scum has a Roleblocker? I don't know why anyone would assume this and then vote me because if it. As I mentioned above, there could easily be a busdriver instead.

OK, just so that everyone is on the same page:

Players Not Alive (6):
18) Furcolow - Vanilla Townie - Lynched Day One
19) Johnny Rotten DavidParker - Vanilla Townie Killed Night One
15) Nhammen - Mafia Goon - Killed Night One
8) Mysterio - Doctor - Lynched Day Two
6) Wickedestjr - Mason - Killed Night Two

12) Benmage - Mafia Roleblocker - Killed Night Two

[Robbnva]

wow the fact that people can't read the death writeup is funny, tbh only scum would refuse to look at the death writeup imo since they are already know who is dead. I am sure dana is on his mafia qt right now saying FUCK I didn't know the roleblocker died, what do we do now guys.

[Robbnva]

why is everyone ignoring the fact that I said Lawyer OR Framer? is it just because it's convenient?

doesn't matter what you said, if you were pro-town cop and mafia has a role blocker (already confirmed because he is dead) thers is NO WAY you got an investigation off, unless mafia is fail and did not block you. I can not play out a single scenario in my head where I would not block the claimed cop on night 1 if I was mafia.

When I am a roleblocker for the bad guys, I make damn sure the first claimed power role is blocked until somebody better comes along and THIS is why I am voting you.

now I have to wonder about your inno on Xite, is that a ploy to earn town cred with him or is he your scum buddy. nobody will know for sure until the real cop comes forward, which I am sure they won't cause there is no doctor. <insert facepalm here>

[Wraith]

danakillsu

I'm going to ignore everything from him on Day 1. That's been discussed enough. Day 2 is where his cop claim starts to fail to make up for scumminess.

Got an inno on DavidParker, but as you can see, that doesn't help us much. I'm surprised scum killed him, seeing as he didn't seem likely to be a cop anyway.
vote: Wraith
I would be very glad to lynch the scum any day of the week.

This is where is starts. We now know there was a scum Roleblocker - why didn't they block the claimed cop? They killed the other, but the more probable claimed cop got away scot free? I'm surprised this wasn't brought up during Day 2. He also immediately jumps on my bandwagon for no reason. As far as I can tell, dana had absolutely NO suspicions against me during Day 1 and gave none during Day 2.

Strange that Wickedest will vote almost anyone except Wraith.
He's definitely someone to look at as a scumbuddy if Wraith flips scum as expected.

He begins putting out seeds of doubt on Wickedest, the most obvtown player in the game, solely for defending me. Let me bring up this point in my defense: why, when so many people were arrayed against me Day 2, and with the threat of "obvious Day 3 lynch" looming because of Mysterio's flip, would I use the Mafia's kill on the person who MOST STEADFASTLY BELIEVED MY INNOCENCE? No amount of WIFOM makes that a good decision on my part. I'll also bring up that Dana's activity dropped sharply during Day 2, when he was in the clear, cruising on his cop claim, and sitting on a strong wagon.

Is it so odd for a player to have a town read? Just because you believe someone is scum doesn't mean they are, and moreover, just because you think someone is obviously scummy doesn't mean it's true.

And your point is...?
If I think Wraith is obvscum, then I think anyone who ignores his scumminess and votes just about anyone else is also scummy. That is called consistency. If you don't agree, you don't agree, but this statement is pointless.

Shanba's post was in response to dana's attack on wicked for defending me. Dana uses this to try and turn the town against the second-most obvtown player in the game. Note: Shanba is a very probable candidate for tonight's nightkill.

If he was town faking a daykill, he would be doing it to try to keep Wraith alive. And if he wanted Wraith alive, he wouldn't have put his vote there for so long. So unvote vote: Mysterio
I kind of like the case on him, and it's a good place to rest my vote while I try to figure out who besides Wraith is scummy.

Believing I am inevitably dead, dana shifts to the next-best wagon, and also states that he'll lose his tunnel vision. Yet he immediately puts his tunnel vision goggles back on when the daykill is confirmed fake. Oh dear. "Captain, my sensors indicate a strong scum reading on this next post"

It is still my opinion, in fact. Robbnva kind of beat me to the punch.

Why did we need to post our suspicions of other people when we already have a lynch candidate for the day. That would only give scum more information.

So yeah, what you did was good...for scum.

This is dana actively advocating that we not post suspicions on other people other than me. What happened to "I'm going to start figuring out who besides Wraith is scummy"? Scum have all the information they need - everyone else is an enemy, they must die. Posting SCUMREADS on other people are only going to help them choose who not to kill yet.

My opinion on walls of text.
Gorrad: town
Xite: scummy
Robbnva: neutral
Mysterio: town
hiphop: scummy
If the Wraith wagon actually does fall apart, I would definitely vote for hiphop or Xite, preferably hiphop, since Xite hasn't been too scummy before this whole thing.

Dana had a strong suspicion of hiphop throughout Day 1, but chose to lynch me over him. Could be evidence of scumbuddy distancing, especially since hiphop has been lurking almost the entire game, popping in only to push mislynch wagons. Xite is the third-most obvtown player in this game, but lost townpoints in everyone's eyes from the fake daykill. I've stated this before: SCUM HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO FAKE HAMMER/DAYKILL SOMEONE THEY ARE ALREADY ABOUT TO LYNCH, AND DERAILING AN INEVTIABLE LYNCH OF A SCUMBUDDY IS AN INCREDIBLY STUPID THING FOR SCUM TO DO AS IT DRAWS SEVERE AMOUNTS OF ATTENTION ONTO THEM. The "scumminess" of Xite revolves around this, but Xite, after Shanba and Wicked, is the ONLY townie to bother taking off tunnel vision goggles and scumhunt other people than the most popular wagon.

Why is it ironic and why are you seeing this as a scumteam?
I think you're just mad because I pointed out your scumminess in derailing the Wraith wagon, voting for Wraith again, and unvoting him again. Wishy-washiness on the main wagon is extremely scummy.

Ultra-extreme tunnel vision (plus lurking and poor voting reasons) is much more of a scumtell.

hy am I a silly cop? I've only investigated one person and it made sense. And I for sure wouldn't allow myself to be directed now that EVERYONE has said not to direct me.

It might have made sense but he was dead, and therefore the result was easy to lie about.

Inno on Xite was my result. I didn't investigate Wraith because I figured it would be too obvious and scum might be able to affect it somehow (like a lawyer or framer). So I wish to lynch Wraith like we should have yesterday. vote: Wraith

And this is the crown jewell of my collection. I've already pointed out how full of craplogic this is. The only thing that doesn't make sense is why dana is confirming Xite as innocent despite having pushed his scumminess so much during Day 2. Here is a cop-paste of my first attack on this post:

Let me get this straight: you didn't want to investigate me (and therefore prove my innocence) because you thought a scum framer could frame me? And then you want to lynch me anyway despite thinking the MAFIA would frame me?

But let's move on to the second part of my critique of this single post:

1. Why did you get a result at all? According to Natural Action Resolution, the block comes before the kill, so if you were blocked (and you should have been by a sane scumteam if they killed Wicked) you should not have a result even though the RB died.

2. WHY ARE YOU EVEN ALIVE? The Doctor is dead, the best possible choice by a sane scumteam would have been to kill you, the claimed cop who has POSTED RESULTS.

Theories at this point:

1. Dana is a ScumCop

I don't know how likely this is on ModMeta, but it's possible based on his play and investigation results.

2. Dana is lying

Equally plausible is that Dana is not a cop at all. Innocent on a confirmed dead VT is more than possible to fake. Xite is obvtown, the result can be faked almost as easily.

I am 99% sure dana is scum. If he had claimed a guilty on Xite that certainty would be 100%.

Predit: It doesn't matter if you said framer OR lawyer. You're still saying you thought I would be framed by someone and that was why you didn't investigate me, yet still vote for me anyway.

[Bunnylover]

Antihero can you explain your reason on your vote on me.

@At the whole Dana not been blocked thing:
Why exactly would scum block the cop that everyone is doubting and want dead? Everyone obviously would question why he hasn't been roleblocked, why he hasn't died, and etc.
So are you all honestly saying that you want to lynch a claim cop when no one else has claimed they are the real cop, have a chance of him dieing and actually been the cop, then were all fucked because the townie info role just died and now everyone going to go run to look at who was on the wagon and start picking those people off.

[Wraith]

Almost nobody doubted the cop claim Day 1. Tell me: is it smart to kill the claimed cop who has meta-evidence of town-fakeclaiming cop multiple times to draw a nightkill, but leave the other claimed cop free to investigate someone? Plus, almost EVERYONE doubted DP's counterclaim. He was killed to absolutely ensure that his counterclaim could not be called in to question dana's claim Day 2.

[Wraith]

In short, the smart N1/D2 action by the scumteam would have been:

Kill Wicked or Xite

Roleblock Dana

Mislynch DP

DP would have been an easy target to mislynch Day 2. I'm confident he would have died before page 40. Xite and Wicked were the most obvtown players Day 1. Dana was the more believable claimed cop. Summary: Scumteam isn't too bright, dana is obvscum. If he was really pro-town, he wouldn't be alive right now.

[Bunnylover]

From a scum point of view, yes it is smart to kill the person who has a history of fake-claiming.
Why? Look how things are playing out.
Do I get why Dana is been allowed to invistigate? A little. In my eyes its more suspicious for a claimed cop to be allowed to investigate then to have him obviously roleblocked.
How would his counter claim be called out in D2 if no one believed DP claimed?

[Porochaz]

why is everyone ignoring the fact that I said Lawyer OR Framer? is it just because it's convenient?

So wait a sec, ignoring the fact that your a cop thats now survived two days in a row, ignoring the fact that you are not playing like a cop at all, such as asking for guidance in who to investigate, which is clearly a flawed plan, ignoring even the fact that instead of investigating any players worthy of an investigation you chose xite, you think there is a mafia framer or lawyer in this game? Seriously? It's not like this game is being played in the New York sub forum, or it doesn't have "Normal" in the title. Your speaking out your ass and have been for a while. Lets bring all the stuff back in that I ignored before. It was already mentioned but you didn't vote Wraith because of the possibility of either a. A fairly rare almost bastard moddish role (reminder: in a normal game) or b. A role I've never even heard of before... As a cop you have motives to be beneficial to town and know when to show information, this comes to an extent with practice but even a newbie in there first game doesn't play the way you have (unless your frank... probably) unless you are trying to show your "towniness" by giving town complete control, which then becomes useless for town. But thinking about it for a couple of minutes most would realise this.

In any case, I know, Shanba, that Im about to vote another day 1 claimed cop, however there are too many inconsistencies here.

vote dana

[Porochaz]

I also trust BBM to think of something more original and less strong than a cop/doc combo.

[Porochaz]

Wraiths first point is also good in his long post.

[Robbnva]

also even if the role-blocker was killed, the way I have seen most games on this site run, it uses that natural whatever method which means basically the roleblocker role would happen before the roleblocker was dead, and if that is what the mod used in this game (don't know cause he does not list his order of actions) dana would have been blocked again and thus not had an inno on Xite.

I think the inno on DP was such an obvious thing to say, and again if I was cop there is NO WAY in hell I would investigate the DP because it was obvious he was lying.
The inno on Xite is what I am trying to wrap my head around, especially since dana did not read the night report to see the Rb had died, did dana just say he got an inno on Xite because Xite is a scum buddy OR is it because Xite really is town and he is trying to get cred wit him.

NOW if I recall, Xite never voted for dana on day 1 to me is yet another red flag.

[DemonHybrid]

There is so much WIFOM in this discussion it's making my head spin. dana's arguments have turned to complete flail. We're talking about lawyers now? Who even starts to think of that role as town? There's not even a fucking wiki entry on it. You can argue the semantics all you want, but lets focus on your play now. Everything that has to do with your cop claim is "Well...it could have been.." this and "Well...it might have been..." that. Flip floppy votes and pure calculated defensive WIFOM points to you being da scummy scummy.

Unvote, Vote: danakillsu

. I'm still keeping my eye on Poro; he's in the perfect position to bus right now, plus, obvious defense by benmage is obvious. A look into Xite after this would probably prove helpful too.

[Robbnva]

Wickedestjr - Mason - Killed Night Two

The second death was not as much wicked as it was...magical.

Benmage - Mafia Roleblocker - Killed Night Two

I say we just no kill every day and let mafia/other prs kill themselves off /joking

Not funny

So I have a question, if mafia had a role blocker what would the reason be they did not block Dana? Dana the cop and the only outed PR would have to be mafia's play night 1, yet Dana got a result. This just strikes me as odd

unvote

just need to figure things out.

Because there's obviously more than one pr and mafia would attack someone more likely to cause a problem? I mean, they're counting on people to do exactly what you're doing so that they can have town get rid of the cop. I'm still not too sure that dana is a cop, because if there' only one scumgroup then he would definitely know that he would get an inno on me. That being said I think I know who's killing scum, don't worry I won't tell

your rationale makes no damn sense and just makes me think more and more that you are scum. there is NO WAY the mafia roleblocker is not going to block the cop, they don't want to take the chance of him actually hitting one of them and outing a mafia. I am sorry this just adds more scum points on your side.

You've been tunneling on Porochaz for ages, with what I see as a sequence of poor cases. Today's kill is going to be Wraith, and I'll tell you why. Because, IF Wraith is town, no mafia in their right mind would NK him. He's a scummy claimed vanilla who has come very close to lynch. And if our mysterious second killer was going to do the honor, he would have last night. The only way Wraith is going to die is by lynch, and if we put it off we're only delaying the inevitable.

So... you're trying to get wraith killed because.... he won't die any other way? How does that say he's scum?

Major FoS: Gorrad

yes I think gorrad has a point, why would mafia ever NK wraith when he is always going to be suspect number 1 for the town. Now I am willing to bet if dana really is a mafia member, than I would expect wraith to be NKd because he is not useful to the mafia anymore. If (and I am saying IF) the situation plays out and dana is scum, most likely Xite would be scum too and THAT is the reason he tried to stop the lynch on him. Keep him alive to look like the VI and divert attention onto other people who are also playing like VI.

Also,

Vote; Robbie

It

was

obvious I was going to do that right?

yeah it was obvious you line up your lynches which is another tell of scum. I'm sorry I don't believe dana is cop anymore and his clearing you is out the window in my opinion.

if it turns out you actually are town Xite, you are playing far worse than what you have accused me of playing. You are doing nobody any good right now.

[Wraith]

Also, I'd like to put this out before I forget. We probably have a very smart/observant SK doing the second kill each night. Gorrad is currently my top choice for that role.

[Gorrad]

Wraith: I really like how you're starting to contribute. It almost makes up for your not doing so earlier, except for the fact that you only started doing so after I constantly called you out for it.

Dana has serious strikes against him, but I have to disagree with

tbh only scum would refuse to look at the death writeup imo since they are already know who is dead.

Scum died N1. Therefore, scum know they're not the only kill. Therefore, they'd read the gorram opening post.

I think the fact that Dana's still alive is a huge load of WIFOM. I'm not going to fall for it.

Post preview Edit: A) Don't speculate on NKs. B) As SK, I would want to be able to fakeclaim vig due to there only being two kills N1. Therefore I'd target those much higher on my scumlist than Benmage. While this IS WIFOM, it's the kind I'd have to setup beforehand and tell me, which would be better- me setting up this as WIFOM, or me with a vig claim? The answer's obviously the latter. And Claim: Not a Vig

[Wraith]

TBH my speculation is kind of a shot in the dark. I'm pretty confident that it's an SK and not Vig (keep up the good work, either way), but my putting you as the top candidate is mostly because you seem smart (despite the D2 tunneling) and there are really no better candidates that aren't scum. Shanba would be my second choice but I really want to believe he is town.

[Gorrad]

Noted and appreciated.