Mini 1036 - DEFCON Mafia - Over


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Post Post #425 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:30 am

Post by Percy »

@RedCoyote
: Here's my summation of what you said about Hinduragi in that post:
-You agreed with him that not reading the thread is a nulltell,
-You called him on misreading Enigma's sarcasm,
-You don't like Sociopath's vote on Hindu,
-He is fourth on your townlist.

Now I have read your notes, and you've gone back and explained how you arrived at your townread by making parallels with other stuff you said, but my original point still stands - your original read on Hindu seemed to come out of the blue.

But now this makes your vote on him doubly puzzling. Sure he hasn't been posting much, and it was a case of "Sure, I've got a free vote, whatever". It's like you didn't have any opinions on Hindu at all.

Also, as I pointed out, there were cases floating about. Why was Doombunny on the backburner and not Hindu, or anyone else? You seem to be the player who, like me, likes to put a lot of thought into his voting, but this Hindu business rubs me the wrong way. And this is not the first time Doombunny has been out of your notice, you did leave him off your first scumscale...

I can't put it better than Hinduragi already did:
Hinduragi 420 wrote:Pray tell, what did Doombunny do that gives him the pleasure of being on your backburner?
Hmmmmmmm.

And, my reaction was different to yours, wrt the dropped message. I'm looking for scum motivation; you were looking for a reaction from Zhero.

@SpyreX
: The problem I have is that you're painting this mess as a failed scum gambit, and that Calc needs to claim to clear it up. It's clear that the Calc hydra view the move as a mistake, and I don't see how knowing the details will help the town conclude anything about their alignment. I'm not convinced it's a scum gambit, but I'm not convinced the other way either. The best way to clear this up is to talk about
other things
, rather than treading over the same ground.
Faraday 413 wrote:... I don't know why [Percy] doesn't think Socio can be scum? Any reason apart from the message thing?
Because I believe Doombunny is scum, maybe with RedCoyote, and I don't think Doombunny was/is bussing Sociopath. That crosses SocioPath off the "Warsaw Pact" list, but doesn't clear him from being the SK.

Now Doombunny is getting really condescending, saying the problem is with my interpretation and there is a little bit of "you are scum for voting me" tone creeping into this post, and I'm not a fan. Where did I get the idea you're voting Socio for lurking? Oh yeah, when you say things like this in the post where you vote for him:
Doombunny9 223 wrote:Hey Socio... You going to you know? Actually contribute something? Out of ten posts (Whereas most people have over double that and the only people with less posts are Percy and Spyre (Not counting Papa since he dropped off the face of the Earth)) only one was actually good (good defined as participating in discussion etc. etc.): #5. The rest just mainly being fluff. Also, out of the 3 posts he made in Defcon 3, two vere votes/votechanges with nothing more than a 3 or 4 word explanation (If I even want to call it that). Finally, he kept his RV on Spyre for an exceedingly long amount of time. guys, I think we have a scum here.
If that's not a "You are scum because you are a lurker" case, then I don't know what is. Quibble over definitions if you like, but you made the determination that Socio was the lurkiest of the lurkers, and he was scummy in his lurking.

But, you've been inconsistent in your lurkerhunting, as I've pointed out, which is how I sort the town lurkerhunters from the scum lurkerhunters.

Your unvote to test the waters of a Calcifer lynch, then putting it
back on Sociopath
when SpyreX starts to get votes is awesome. The unvote shows just how little you actually believe in your Socio vote, also how you're opportunist scum, and revoting Sociopath is the move of a cowardly toothless paper baby tiger.
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Post Post #426 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:33 am

Post by AurorusVox »

I dunno, I think I'm with SpyreX on this one. I mean, he didn't have to tunnel it so hard but it needed clearing up. Andy basically said "I'm voting - I have role related information" which sure as hell made it look like he'd caught scum at night. Which was impossible. Which is why it needed clearing up. If he'd just said it was gut from the start, this whole thing would have been avoided. The reaction probing argument obviously relies on claiming to have role-related information, but that's a dangerous game to be playing this early on, and Andy should have been prepared to face the consequences of being caught out in a lie. To me, it looks like overzealous play not thought through, or scum trying to push a mislynch, not thought through.

Though, re-reading the posts in question, Andy never actually said that he had caught scum. His "role related information" comment could feasibly have been referencing "a gut read from a suspicious result" rather than a scum-find. But he also made no indication of it being due to a gut read until after SpyreX had pointed out he couldn't have caught confirmed scum. I'm gonna stick to my vote for now.

Also, Calc, why did you fight so hard against fullclaiming when Enigma had already outed what your role was way back when?

---
Doombunny9 wrote:If Spyre keeps up with what he's been doing I wouldn't mind switching to her if its near deadline and socio isn't getting lynched.
What element of SpyreX's actions do you find the most scummy?

---

@Hindu
: All that text, but still no vote? Who is your top suspect and why aren't you voting for them?
THE LEMON LIVES! - Cabd
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Post Post #427 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:36 am

Post by AurorusVox »

EBWOP: Wait, do you count "fullclaiming" as claiming+results? I only meant it in terms of claiming your role out in the open xD
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Post Post #428 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:50 am

Post by Percy »

AV's post is some :goodposting:, goddamn.

They're talking about results. There is some ambiguity left; Enigma has not revealed who he targeted, and Calcifer has not confirmed that this is information is the same information he's got on Enigma, if I'm following correctly.

I didn't see the argument clearly from SpyreX's original case. My desire to not
talk
about the setup meant I myself tried not to
think
about it, which was a dumb move. The original case is more subtle than it was in my mind.

How I read it now: Perhaps there's something else at work. It was as SpyreX said, a botched attempt to claim a cop guilty, and Calcifer doesn't know who Enigma targeted, so if he claims radar and his target doesn't match up with Enigma's, he's lynched scum. If he claims espionage and gets CC'd, then he's dead. Thus the "rolefishing" argument is a nice neutral position to take against others' attempts to call you on your botchjob. He said at one point something about how it's based off the flavourtext?
Andrius wrote:Role related information. *whistles*
Andrius wrote:
Disclaimer: I pursued Enigma out of gut and me not seeing Rule #15. So yeah.
Unvote
This is some goddamned bullshit. You can't softclaim like that. You can't expect something like this to not affect people's reads. That's why you said it in the first place. If you want it to influence people's reads on Enigma,
you have to say why
. Now you're saying they never insinuated that he's scum?

Nope. Not even allowed.

I am officially interested in Calcifer claiming ASAP. It's a complete 180, but it's the right one to make. Sorry, SpyreX.

I will hammer Calcifer if he's put to L-1 and continues to refuse to claim.

I'm still pretty sure Doombunny9 is scum. He remains my strongest scumread, and so my vote is going to stay on his puny wagon. I think my case stands on its own merits.
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Post Post #429 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:53 am

Post by Percy »

EBWOP:
Percy wrote:Now you're saying they never insinuated that he's scum?
they -> you.

Hydras are confusing.
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Post Post #430 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:22 am

Post by Enigma »

What do you mean when you say claim?
I already said I would prefer if my target wasn't revealed because it gives the scum an even greater likelihood that they will correctly guess my ability.
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Post Post #431 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:31 am

Post by Calcifer »

@Percy: Oh, not you too </3. I already explained that Andy has a history of this. I mean, seriously:
Andy's wiki: The Breadcrumb Bakery wrote:The history behind the bakery goes back to Harry Potter Mafia, wherein the breadcrumbing began when Andrius tried to convince SpyreX that Harry Potter was in the game. (MehPlusRawr, was Harry Potter and my Mason-buddy.) D3 rolled by wherein I crumbed like hell and was able to convey my own identity: Sirius Black.
Andy's wiki: Comments on HP Mafia wrote:I was masons with MehPlusRawr. I crumbed way too often and sometimes without even knowing it. We outed ourselved D3. Game was lost with FakeGod's lynch. He was a Beloved Princess. N3 and N4 resulted in my and MPR's deaths. Scum won. Moral of the story: follow your gut. Game is infamous for the Luna v. Hermione v. Ginny debate over which girl is better.
See? It's NULL. Hell, I'd even go as far as say it's a Town tell. In fact, seeing Spyrex be mentioned up there somewhere makes me even surer-er of my vote on SpyreX.

Is it so hard to accept that Andy has an established meta of softclaiming/breadcrumbing with somewhat silly reasons? D=

--

@ AV: I understand fullclaim as role + results. It's pretty obv what my role is now since I've been using it in my defense(Radar, for the dense.). Results, on the other hand are silly to claim and I think Spy is forcing me to out this(and getting away with it!) for his own scum purposes.
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Post Post #432 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:40 am

Post by SpyreX »

I have role related information is not breadcrumbing.

I have role related information accompanied by a vote is not a gut call.

If this was a screwup simply acknowledging it and coming clean is a much better move.

As it sits we're going to reach defcon 1 before another lynch. That, 100%, is not my fault.
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Post Post #433 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:48 am

Post by VasudeVa »

Wait, I get it. Via Percy's playstyle, he reads that vote + comments as 'Enigma is scum, I have results!.

But it really doesn't: Votes can be used as a way to find out people's alignments. It was more like:

"I saw Enigma do something last night!"
*in thread*
'Heyyy Enigmaa~ I think you're scum~ I'll scare you with my PR result to find out~ Vote: Enigma'

--
Spy wrote:I have role related information accompanied by a vote is not a gut call.
Bad assumption.

The 'I have role related information' was used to scare Enigma into showing his true colors. Regardless of the result, Andy still thought Enigma was scum via gut.

Didn't I say this a few posts ago?
Call me Vas, ;D A little less active than I used to be due to IRL. Hoping to be back up to speed soon-ish!
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Post Post #434 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:49 am

Post by Calcifer »

Ugh. Posting with real account for the AlmGM post-editing corporation.
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Post Post #435 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:55 am

Post by Calcifer »

SpyreX wrote: If this was a screwup simply acknowledging it and coming clean is a much better move.
For those of you who are too en-tunneled and too scum to actually READ THE FUCKING THREAD:
ANDRIUS wrote:OH WAIT. Disclaimer: I pursued Enigma out of gut and me not seeing Rule #15. So yeah. Unvote
By now you all know I have an active ability. I used it on Enigma out of gut and a slight scum read from play.
I received a PM with some results. Some results and some stuff that were purely flavorful, but, in typical Andy fashion, I forgot about Rule #15 and assumed that it was "extra" info I found- which would have been incriminating.

<3,

Andy

p.s.
Re:
Vas-Calcifer wrote: Is it so hard to accept that Andy has an established meta of softclaiming/breadcrumbing with somewhat silly reasons? D=
Go read the last 3 pages of the Title Fairy Thread. I've been nominated for all sorts of titles from
The Baker, Hansel, CEO of Panera Bread, Breadcrumb Baker, Sir Sourdough, Prince Pumpernickle
etc. So yeah. Its my established meta, for "better or for worse".
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Post Post #436 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:01 am

Post by Percy »

(1)
SpyreX 432 wrote:If this was a screwup simply acknowledging it and coming clean is a much better move.
This. If it is a mistake, then it's a regrettable one, but it needs to be cleared up just the same. The fact that you do this often does not change that it needs to be put right.

(2)
Enigma 430 wrote:I already said I would prefer if my target wasn't revealed because it gives the scum an even greater likelihood that they will correctly guess my ability.
They know you have an ability that targets a player. You said as much. How does Calcifer claiming their ability (
even if
they claim radar and correctly identify your target!) lead to the scum being more able to guess your ability? That makes NO SENSE.

(3)
VasudeVa 433 wrote:"I saw Enigma do something last night!"
Congratulations, you just claimed Radar. Why are you not claiming your target, so that Enigma might confirm or contest your result?

(Note: Enigma does not need to claim his ability. He only needs to confirm his target.)
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Post Post #437 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:02 am

Post by Percy »

Also, scaring him with "I know you have an activated ability" is strange in this game, and SpyreX has already pointed this out, iirc.
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Post Post #438 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:04 am

Post by SpyreX »

Wait, what?

I thought you were making some reference to the in game flavor.

This is from PM flavor?

You make me so angry I can't see straight.

But, that's just pants on head enough I can buy it with how this went.

Now I need to reread this debacle.

FOR THE RECORD HOWEVER I DO NOT FEEL THE SLIGHTEST BIT BAD ABOUT THIS AND LOL META MAKES ME WROTH ENOUGH FOR A SPITE LYNCH.

But, no.
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Post Post #439 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:17 am

Post by Calcifer »

I was thinking Enigma's #430 too, which was why I was vehemently against claiming. Now that I realize it, hey Percy's right.

Enigma targeted Percy last night.

Also, I didn't even know that Andy was talking about PM flavor. >.>. Lemme ask him in our hydra QT. That needs some explanation.
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Post Post #440 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:22 am

Post by Calcifer »

Ooh, okay.

The PM flavor had some latitude and longitude stuff that said Enigma went to Percy at Rome, Andy thought that Percy was insta-town from that. And then he jumped on to Enigma to reaction fish, to find out what his motivations for targeting Percy was.
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Post Post #441 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:24 am

Post by Enigma »

...
Gee fucking Gee

Unvote

VOTE: Percy
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Post Post #442 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:38 am

Post by SpyreX »

Why in the name of all that is holy does that equal you voting for percy.

Lets not play this game again please god please.
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Post Post #443 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:53 am

Post by Enigma »

Mafia is a game of deductive reasoning.
Maybe you should try using some deductive reasoning instead of deductive everything be spelled out in front of you.

I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with flavor text.
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Post Post #444 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:01 am

Post by Enigma »

EBWOP: Demanding that everything be spelled out in front of you.
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Post Post #445 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:21 am

Post by SpyreX »

Ohh god the coy flu is spreading.

If I get to do this AGAIN I will explode.
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Post Post #446 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 6:28 am

Post by Enigma »

/popcorn
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Post Post #447 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:09 am

Post by SpyreX »

NO. Not /popcorn.

God in heaven this teehee business is driving me nuts.

Voting for percy after targetting him IS THE SAME THING WE JUST WENT THROUGH. If its a damn investigation say so. If not DONT DO WHAT JOHNNY DONT DOES.
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Post Post #448 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:54 am

Post by SocioPath »

I'd vote Calcifer before anyone else involved in this current discussion concerning him.
Calcifer wrote:
Vas-Calcifer wrote: Is it so hard to accept that Andy has an established meta of softclaiming/breadcrumbing with somewhat silly reasons? D=
Go read the last 3 pages of the Title Fairy Thread. I've been nominated for all sorts of titles from
The Baker, Hansel, CEO of Panera Bread, Breadcrumb Baker, Sir Sourdough, Prince Pumpernickle
etc. So yeah. Its my established meta, for "better or for worse".
CAKE, MEET ICING.
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Post Post #449 (ISO) » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:04 am

Post by Zhero »

..huh.

Enigma, why the reluctance to claim?
Why did you target Percy?

Socio, do you think Calcifer is scum-Radar who just apparently outed his own partner?
-Zhero

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