Mini 1035 - Devil's Town - GAME OVER

[Untrod Tripod]

should have done this in my last post

unvote Taz

[TDC]

A normal game must have at least one team of two.

[Untrod Tripod]

[quote"TDC"]A normal game must have at least one team of two.[/quote]

Normal Game
(Redirected from Normal game)
This page has official status; unlike most wiki pages, it cannot be edited by normal users. If you believe edits need to be made, please bring them up on the talk page.
A Normal Game must meet the following guidelines:
The setting of a Normal game should be Mafia related. Even flavor text should be minimal and not be based on any book, movie, song, time period, etc.
A Normal game should have at least one Mafia faction, and no more than two.
A Normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.
Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.
In general, Normal games should include plain Townies. Don't overuse roles just to make your game more interesting (it probably won't make it more interesting anyway, just unbalanced).
Certain setups which satisfy all of the above might still be better suited as theme games. Examples include Texas Justice, NYPD Mafia, and Hospital Mafia in which all the innocent roles were the same. The setups of these games fit the guidelines outlined above, but their experimental nature makes them more suited to be run as theme games.
Currently anyone wishing to run a Large Normal or Mini Normal Game must submit the setup to Ether to check that it is indeed Normal. In borderline cases, fully open setups are more likely to be accepted.

Don't see that rule

[TDC]

"A Normal game should have at least one Mafia faction"
A SK is not a Mafia faction.

[Tazaro]

UT, you should know that having only one enemy to contend with in a nine-player game is horribly unbalanced.

[podium123456]

i was in a game as scum recently, when on d3 lylo a person placed a vote on a townie at the start of the day. my partner and i had already discussed to be prepared in case that happened... we hammered within 5 minutes and won the game. everyone was very active today when UT voted, and LMP/TDC didnt bite. if i believe that taz is town (which i currently do), then that means either LMP/TDC are numbskulls/gutless for not trying to quickhammer, or that UT is scum.

im probably ready to vote now... but will wait till everyone is ready.

[LimMePls]

Alright, I'm going to ISO everyone left in the game. I'm going to start with UT, since he is almost certainly scum, and I'm going to look for connections. Then I'll ISO the others in order of my read from scum to town.

I just want to point something out. Dr P and podium are having an argument that, essentially, boils down to how they interpret this:

VOTE:Dr Pepper

which, I'd like to remind you guys was
- the 3rd post in the game
- in response to a random vote.

so, I guess what I'm trying to say is
- chill
- out
- dude

I'm not going to make judgement on either podium or dr p's alignment, although I agree with what people have said in that we will probably find scum on the blaze wagon.

The problem with this post is that at the time the only discussion the town was having (useful or not) was about this event. Trying to stifle the activity is scummy. The town needs to exit RVS, and attempts to stop the progression of the game are bad bad bad. It also fence-sits and is completely unwilling to make a statement about the event. Was it scummy? Was it not? No opinion just "chill out dude".

Also, @everyone, care to share your opininons on this post I made? It seemed to have gotten lost under the creation of a new thread page.

I'm suddenly finding it very suspicous that Dr P. was the only one that considered Blaze's vote to be OMGUS, and for him to attempt to pursuade everyone it was, only for Blaze to come out and say it was.

tl;dr, Dr P. and Blaze are scumbiddies, and I found possible evidence.

I don't follow. What's your evidence?

This is interesting, as it could be seen as a defense of Blaze(Taz). Someone says they found possible evidence of Dr. P/Blaze scum team and UT starts to question it.

Vote Untrod Tripod

I will go ahead and join the bandwagon. I'm keeping an eye on Dr.Pepper.

well technically your second vote makes it a bandwagon, especially the part where there's no reason given for it.

Are you gonna make a judgment about something else then perhaps? This post was incredibly wishy-washy. You wanna take a stand on anything? Post 60 was a big ball of saying nothing in as many words as possible.
Vote: untrod tripod

bloodthirsty much? I realize that voting and stuff has to take place at the beginning of the game, but I really don't think you can make hard and fast calls on someone's alignment with this little information given. I'm getting scummy vibes from Dr P's posts like this

Things podium has lied about
Blaze's vote being random and light-hearted
giving Blaze the benefit of the doubt
while condemning me with assumptions
My reasons for voting Blaze
His OMGUS vote
and for pressure to contribute
hard since he's being defended for no reason
Me calling any player scummy
The severity of his slips

I'm a cautious players, so I tend to avoid saying "he's scum, he's scum, he's scum" early. That's just how I roll.

A question to Nexus and LMP: why did you vote on the Blaze bandwagon?

Questions the Blaze(Taz) bandwagon. Says he thinks Dr. P is scummy (who was pushing the Blaze wagon). This could be distancing from Dr. P(TDC) or protecting Blaze(Taz)

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

QFT

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum. On the one hand, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper, but on the other hand Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch. But still,

IGMEOY TDC

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim (since there seems to be no vig we couldn't have found him dead last night if he'd claimed a killing PR that someone else had and we kept him alive, or the cop/doc would have had to come out which would have been a bad plan on day 1). We had some discussion before the hammer about the relative intelligence of requiring a claim and I kind of fall on the side of not wanting a second claim on day 1.

I'll have to think/observe/reread more to decide where my vote needs to go.

This is another post where he could be distancing from TDC. He said that D1 his biggest suspicion was of Dr.P(TDC), but he wants to give the replacement a "chance". Why do replacements have to be given a "chance"? If the slot was scummy before, why does it getting a replacement nullify that scumminess?

And I don't really remember you being particularly suspicious of Dr. P at the time, could you elaborate what exactly it is that bothers you so much about him?

I thought he was being especially stubborn and confrontational. Also him replacing out did nothing to help how his alignment looked. I don't think he looks like obviscum, but thought he was playing somewhat anti-town.

UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

cry moar. I'm not going to be less cautious because you're baiting me. that's just how I roll, dawg

This post actually read kind of townie to me. It's interesting compared with how he reacted to my poking on D1. On D1 I pushed him for being wishy-washy and his response was to start making some stances (appease me). However, on D2 when I push him for that behavior he basically tells me to get bent. Seems like scum would actually try to appease again. This post actually felt genuine to me.

Yah, there's a certain timing element to Zodiak's vote, and from this I see Zodiark's game play as suspect.

Vote: Zodiark

I really don't get what's so scummy about Zodiark. I didn't find his vote all that suspect and I don't think he's scum.

I would, however, say that there's "a certain timing element" to Taz's vote on ABR. He jumps in and puts a quick vote on ABR and now is calling Zodiark obviscum. If Zodiark gets lynched and flips town, I think Taz jumps to the top of my scumlist.

Insofar as there really hasn't been all that much said, I don't really have much else to say. Taz is twitching my scumdar and I'm still iffy on TDC because of his slot.

And then he is back to the wishy-washy again. Of particular note is his statement here that he "really don't get what's so scummy about Zodiark". But he quick hammers him without a claim anyways later. Thanks scum.

I'm not going to quote this whole post, as it is rather large. The point here is that I think this post is why Incognito died last night. At the end he does another subtle defense of Taz ("I'm not saying Zodiark and Taz are scum together"). That's pretty fascinating, given that earlier you were saying you didn't think Zodiark was scum at all.

Other thoughts:
Incognito, I find it kind of suspicious that you came in and buddied up with LMP. As you could read in the game I posted for LMP to read, I used this as a scum tactic in my last completed game to get on the town's good side. You buddy up with a fairly pro-town player (I'd say LMP is fairly pro-town) and ride the goodwill out for as long as possible. Your predecessor(s) hardly confirm you as town, so I feel like this would actually be a good tactic if you're scum to get us to forget ConfidAnon's lurking and replacement.

Hints at a LMP/Incognito scum team. What did we have in common? Oh, we thought UT was scum, right.

sorry for triple post, but I would like to say that I agree that it's interesting that Incognito came in, called a guy with a wagon on him scummy and then promptly tried his darndest to derail the wagon. goodposting, Taz.

UT likes Taz's "goodposting". Fails to point out that what Taz did was unvote Zodiark at Incog's command, then question Incog's motives. How does that make any sense? How does this make sense if you believe in an Incog/LMP scum team? Wouldn't we have wanted the Zodiark mislynch to stay alive? Cognative Dissonance.

Another post to long to quote. Just read it. Trust me, if you didn't think UT was scum before, you should after reading this post. It's just plain awful.

@Taz, what are you trying to do with your votes, exactly?

@TDC
sorry, somehow I missed that being a question. Anyway, I don't think my original defense was that Zodiark was town, I was saying before Incognito replaced in that I thought that Zodiark hammering ABR was not a scumtell. My initial defense for Incognito's case wasn't really a defense of Zodiark, imo, it was more saying that I thought his idea that Zodiark and I were obviously scumbuddies was really faulty. I defended myself more than Zodiark in that post, so I'm not really sure why you're saying my initial reaction was to defend Zodiark. It seemed (as I've said) that one of his scumtells for both of us was that we hadn't said much too/about each other, so I refuted that.

This is another post that makes a case for UT/Taz. That comment to Taz looks like "hey buddy, knock it off, you're looking scummy".

what a representation of the whole game in these first couple posts. LMP pretends I'm confirmed scum and no one disputes him, Taz says something idiotic and TDC gets annoyed.

I'm VT.

let's hear podium's claim

WOW. Interesting that he wants Podium's claim, when he pretty much hasn't said anything about podium since early D1.

I seriously don't know how anyone could read his ISO and conclude he isn't scum. Based on my read, the two most likely buddies are Taz and TDC. Taz will be getting my next ISO.

[LimMePls]

[quote="Tazaro]Yah, Zodiark's hammer after saying Doc Pepper was obvscum is sheer opportunism. IGMEOU, Zodiark.[/quote]

Lining up his lynches. Given the results of the two lynches I think this is telling.

Actually, can someone just unvote Zodiark please? He's at L-1 right now, and I don't think we're ready for that yet.

Unvote

You think things are going to happen to make us ready?

I called attention to this when it happened, but it deserves to be remembered. Taz urges everyone to vote Zodiark, and then Incognito shows up, makes a bunch of sense and looks pro-town, and then Taz unvotes like Incognito asks, but asks this strange question. This reads to me like Taz was trying to appear pro-town to Incognito.

I put cart before the horse at times. I'm not sure I like Incognito's vote for Untrod Tripod.

So he doesn't like Incognito's UT vote, but unvotes Zodiark when Incognito asks for an unvote. The defense of UT is telling here.

...because he's starting a new wagon after the Zodiark one.

Vote: Zodiark

And then gets back on the Zodiark wagon. This whole interaction is crazy scummy.

LMP's tunneling Untrod Tripod, but I don't agree with that tunneling; it's to easy to tunnel.

Taz's attempt to call my UT stance/case tunneling.

Untrod Tripod ain't giving me any scum tells.

More UT defense, although granted not as subtle.

I'm sorry about this, but I have played in this forum only since July, and Untrod Tripod was scum in a game that's now over, so I'm inclined to believe he's town now .

Absolutely awful use of the gambler's fallacy.

Le sigh. Okay, let's use the power of L-1:

Unvote: Zodiark
Vote: Untrod Tripod

That was a rather sudden change of heart. This post screams bus.

That's good that there was a spurt of activity after my vote,

UNVOTE

And then the unvote as fast as possible. This is laughable.

Sorry. Having a mind drunk with whatever makes me do weird things.

Vote: Zodiark

And then the vote right back to Zodiark. Just so I'm making my point clear, the sequence of events are:

Taz votes Zodiark
Taz implores others to vote Zodiark
Taz unvotes Zodiark at Incognito's request
Taz votes Zodiark again
Taz unvotes Zodiark again
Taz votes UT to force a claim using "the power of L-1".
Taz unvotes because "there was a spurt of activity".
Taz votes Zodiark again... again, AtE's about "having a mind drunk with whatever".

So he goes full circle, using the opportunity to suck up to a pro-town looking player (Incog), pushes UT to L-1 to force a claim, then gets his vote right back where he wanted it, the mislynch-of-the-day(TM).

I'm a tracker.
Now for a LMP claim?

After day one was over, Zodiark was a suspicious person in my eyes, so I tracked Zodiark and result: he did not leave his house. After day two was over, I was worried about Incognito, so I tracked Incognito and result: he did not leave his house.

BINGO! We've got a winner here. So, after tracking Zodiark N1 to no one, he pushes Zodiark all day the next day, voting him 3 separate times. Look above at those awful series of events I point out above. How does any of that make sense after you've tracked him to no one? At the very least, wouldn't you hesitate and figure that he is less likely to be scum? This claim makes no sense.

This ISO is almost scummier than UT's. If not for that hammer yesterday after UT's multiple "I don't think Zodiark is scum" posts, I'd think Taz is a better lynch.

I'll have to get to TDC and podium tomorrow, but I think I've seen enough.

[podium123456]

^^ if mafia was going to fake tracker, dont you think they would have used someone other than zordiak? i cant see mafia saying 'ok taz, u fake tracker and report that you tracked zodiark N1' considering that taz lynched him on D2.

i mean, i understand now that both mafs dont visit, so a non-visit could still be guilty... but if you were going to fake, why not do it on someone you didnt end up lynching?

[podium123456]

at one point in time, there was a vote for UT and a vote for Taz today. We were all active during this. If LMP/TDC were a team, they could have hammered... so i dont think that is a possibility.

im gonna have a hard time accepting that taz/ut are a team, even though LMP raises good points.

so from my pov its ut/lmp or ut/tdc... and right now i feel like it's probably ut/tdc.

[TDC]

I assume that's because you're still hung up about Dr P's "ragequit"?

i dont have a town read on anyone at this point, pretty much. if i had to pick right now, id probably go with the low hanging fruit... UT.

Have I missed something in your iso, or is that really the first time you say anything about UT?

--

LMP: I agree that Taz is terrible. But I think claiming a PR like that when you were to claim after him was a significant risk. And just a Watcher is rather weak. Maybe nor outrageously weak, but still. I don't think the Zod-track-and-lynch is that relevant either. (I would say tracking him wasn't that good a choice in the first place).

[LimMePls]

^^ if mafia was going to fake tracker, dont you think they would have used someone other than zordiak? i cant see mafia saying 'ok taz, u fake tracker and report that you tracked zodiark N1' considering that taz lynched him on D2.

i mean, i understand now that both mafs dont visit, so a non-visit could still be guilty... but if you were going to fake, why not do it on someone you didnt end up lynching?

I don't think this is a good argument. Look at Mad World: Time Travel mafia in my wiki to see my scum fake-PR claim. I claimed targets that turned out to be very sub-optimal choices. We can't assume that all scum fake claims will somehow be air tight. Scum make mistakes too.

LMP: I agree that Taz is terrible. But I think claiming a PR like that when you were to claim after him was a significant risk. And just a Watcher is rather weak. Maybe nor outrageously weak, but still. I don't think the Zod-track-and-lynch is that relevant either. (I would say tracking him wasn't that good a choice in the first place).

I agree that it was a risk, but I don't think it can be ruled out. Notice how he didn't want to claim targets but asked for my claim right away. Only when others said "we want your targets" did he give them up. This links with my above point about how scum can make bad fake-claims too. Could be that he didn't want to commit to the gambit in case I was an actual power role. And if they are 2 goons, then 1 watcher only isn't that hard to believe. I don't think we should turn the game into trying to outguess the mod on setup. 1 tracker 1 watcher is possible, and just 1 watcher vs goons is also possible.

Have I missed something in your iso, or is that really the first time you say anything about UT?

This is a good question. ISOs on TDC and podium as soon as I have some time.

[Tazaro]

UT's scum buddy. Who could it be? If it's not LMP, then that's a really tough dilemma to figure out.

[podium123456]

^^ if mafia was going to fake tracker, dont you think they would have used someone other than zordiak? i cant see mafia saying 'ok taz, u fake tracker and report that you tracked zodiark N1' considering that taz lynched him on D2.

i mean, i understand now that both mafs dont visit, so a non-visit could still be guilty... but if you were going to fake, why not do it on someone you didnt end up lynching?

I don't think this is a good argument. Look at Mad World: Time Travel mafia in my wiki to see my scum fake-PR claim. I claimed targets that turned out to be very sub-optimal choices. We can't assume that all scum fake claims will somehow be air tight. Scum make mistakes too.

A little different... it's not a matter of who he investigated, it's a matter of him not acting on his results. Why would maf fake a tracker report on someone that the tracker lynched without ever mentioning his result?

FYI - your wiki link to time travel goes to the wrong game.

I agree that it was a risk, but I don't think it can be ruled out. Notice how he didn't want to claim targets but asked for my claim right away. Only when others said "we want your targets" did he give them up. This links with my above point about how scum can make bad fake-claims too.

This behavior is consistent with taz's previous PR roles... in this game he does the same thing as cop. He reveals that he is cop, and got a guilty... but says he won't say who it was, so that people can discuss the game more. ...naturally we told him to reveal.

And if they are 2 goons, then 1 watcher only isn't that hard to believe. I don't think we should turn the game into trying to outguess the mod on setup. 1 tracker 1 watcher is possible, and just 1 watcher vs goons is also possible.

I dont see anything wrong with speculating about the setup at this point. IMO only 1 pr for town (a watcher) isn't very likely.

Have I missed something in your iso, or is that really the first time you say anything about UT?

This is a good question. ISOs on TDC and podium as soon as I have some time.

Process of elimination.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

UT's scum buddy. Who could it be? If it's not LMP, then that's a really tough dilemma to figure out.

You're the scummiest town player i've ever seen. (assuming you're town, of course.)

[LimMePls]

^^ if mafia was going to fake tracker, dont you think they would have used someone other than zordiak? i cant see mafia saying 'ok taz, u fake tracker and report that you tracked zodiark N1' considering that taz lynched him on D2.

i mean, i understand now that both mafs dont visit, so a non-visit could still be guilty... but if you were going to fake, why not do it on someone you didnt end up lynching?

I don't think this is a good argument. Look at Mad World: Time Travel mafia in my wiki to see my scum fake-PR claim. I claimed targets that turned out to be very sub-optimal choices. We can't assume that all scum fake claims will somehow be air tight. Scum make mistakes too.

A little different... it's not a matter of who he investigated, it's a matter of him not acting on his results. Why would maf fake a tracker report on someone that the tracker lynched without ever mentioning his result?

FYI - your wiki link to time travel goes to the wrong game.

I see how you think it is different, but why is it less scummy? In other words, if he really is a tracker, why wouldn't he have played differently in regards to Zodiark? We agree that if he is scum he made a poor choice of who to claim he tracked.

Thanks for pointing out the wrong link. It's fixed.

I agree that it was a risk, but I don't think it can be ruled out. Notice how he didn't want to claim targets but asked for my claim right away. Only when others said "we want your targets" did he give them up. This links with my above point about how scum can make bad fake-claims too.

This behavior is consistent with taz's previous PR roles... in this game he does the same thing as cop. He reveals that he is cop, and got a guilty... but says he won't say who it was, so that people can discuss the game more. ...naturally we told him to reveal.

This just blows my mind. He was claiming cop with a guilty, but didn't want to say who the guilty was on? I guess that does affect the read of this situation. Thanks for the meta.

And if they are 2 goons, then 1 watcher only isn't that hard to believe. I don't think we should turn the game into trying to outguess the mod on setup. 1 tracker 1 watcher is possible, and just 1 watcher vs goons is also possible.

I dont see anything wrong with speculating about the setup at this point. IMO only 1 pr for town (a watcher) isn't very likely.

Why is only 1 pr for town unlikely, particularly with a powerful PR like watcher? I think we could go round and round on this and in the end we'll have nothing solid gained. That's why I'm saying I don't think trying to out guess the mod on setup is going to be helpful.

In other news, I just finished a TDC ISO. Its basically 38 posts of town goodness. I started doing post by post analysis like I did with UT and Taz, when I realized that after every quote I was just basically saying "I agree". TDC is almost certainly town.

Podium's up next and then I'm ready for a lynch.

[podium123456]

In other news, I just finished a TDC ISO. Its basically 38 posts of town goodness. I started doing post by post analysis like I did with UT and Taz, when I realized that after every quote I was just basically saying "I agree". TDC is almost certainly town.

Do you plan on ISO'ing Dr. Pepper? Wouldn't that be relevant as well?

[LimMePls]

Podium ISO 0-10 could be summed up by saying "Dr. Pepper makes a bunch of hard to understand bullet point lists that don't make much sense. podium calls him on it, they argue, podium is right, and Dr. P rage quits".

This post is one giant wall of saying things that don't really mean anything. I think you manage to imply Me, ABR, Dr.P, Nexus, and UT are scummy in the same post. Looks like a lot of IIOA with 0 scum hunting.

TDC has already claimed vanilla. If you guys put albert at L-1, we risk exposing a PR and/or narrowing mafia's choices for PR hits. Keep that in mind.

It's a toss-up between them to me, but since TDC has already claimed vanilla i am ok with that lynch.

2 claims on D1 is very bad for town, imo.

if you assume 2 mafia (but there could be 3 which would be worse), they have a 1/5 (or 1/4 with 3 maf) chance of killing a PR... on N1. you guys need to keep that in mind.

i would rather lynch a VT than risk exposing/killing a PR, when we have a mislynch (or mislynches) to spare.

If anyone was worried, TDC/podium is NOT a scum team in this game, based on these interactions.

Yes and No. I don't want a second claim today, but that doesn't mean you have to vote TDC. I'm saying don't hammer ABR just for the sake of hammering someone.

If the majority still wants to go after ABR, then that will happen. I just want to ensure everyone knows what's at stake here before we get a 2nd claim. If you think ABR is scum, and are aware of the implications of 2 claims (and are ok with it), then do whatever you think you should.

I'm not a fan of how all the interaction of D1 went down between podium and me. I said I was willing to hammer ABR because of his attempt to hammer TDC before he even had a chance to claim. Then podium tells me to not hammer "just for the sake of hammering". I had never said I was gonna hammer for the sake of hammering. I dunno if this is podium just trying to help town, or scum-podium happy with either of those situations and just posturing for town-cred.

This post is starting to worry me a little bit about a Taz/Podium scum team. Some of there interactions like this one are weird statements that allude to scummy actions, but they never out and out call each other scum.

it's been a while, so i'm assuming that zodiark read my last post and chose not to respond... so

VOTE: Zodiark13

For refusing to discuss the problem with me, and to move the game along. If he responds, i can reconsider. That puts him at L-1.

This is an example of podium following the crowd. He didn't get on Zodiark wagon early D2, but just followed the crowd with this vote. With a wishy-washy "If he responds i can reconsider".

Personally i still find Dr. P's rage quit scummy, and that's probably always going to be associated with that slot for the rest of the game.

Still think zordiak's behavior was scummy, and lynch worthy, at the moment.

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

Haven't been a fan of Taz's input so far.

That's about all i got... can't really get into this game, and haven't seen much that has jumped out and grabbed me.

This is another post where you point out a number of possibilities, but don't really take a hard stance on any of them. I also really hate the interactions I have with podium here about my UT case, and I don't think I ever got a fully satisfying answer from podium on this.

@Podium: Do you admit that I made a case on UT D1? Do you admit that absolutely NO ONE agreed or really even discussed my case? Do you admit that D2 when I was pushing Zodiark, I was still probbing UT over his fence-sitting? If you don't admit any of these, please explain because I'm pretty sure they are fact. If you do admit them, then please explain what was bad about moving my vote to UT when someone from town finally started paying attention to my case.

For the record, i've played with taz a couple of times, and his behavior can be quite erratic/spazzy.

Here is an example... skim through pages 8-13 where taz replaces in, makes like 4 votes, and ends up accidentally hammering our doctor... after previously stating that he refused to vote for that person... ...

He replaced out right after that...

More Taz defense.

taz, you fail pretty hard man. why did you let us lynch an innocent person? ...or a better question:

WHY WERE YOU VOTING FOR AN INNOCENT PERSON?

Dont both mafia visit the night kill... regardless of who submits it? that's how it works on other sites.

...this reminds me of a game i was in in which we lynched a guy who claimed vanilla townie.... and he was actually the cop. lol. next time give us the information taz.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

that being said, i dont think taz is scum. first of all, it fits his normal play (bizarre)... and secondly, maf would have discussed this and known to give a result that wasn't batshit crazy. also i dont see anything wrong with a setup of watcher/tracker.

i dont have a town read on anyone at this point, pretty much. if i had to pick right now, id probably go with the low hanging fruit... UT.

More defense of Taz. The idea that Taz-scum wouldn't make the claim because it would have been more carefully constructed is not persuasive to me. The "I don't have a town read on anyone" is also pretty scummy, as is the follow-up to that being go for the easy lynch that others are pushing.

at one point in time, there was a vote for UT and a vote for Taz today. We were all active during this. If LMP/TDC were a team, they could have hammered... so i dont think that is a possibility.

im gonna have a hard time accepting that taz/ut are a team, even though LMP raises good points.

so from my pov its ut/lmp or ut/tdc... and right now i feel like it's probably ut/tdc.

And another defense of Taz. "Even though LMP raises good points".

@podium: Where does your read of Taz come from? meta only? He looks really scummy to me.

[LimMePls]

In other news, I just finished a TDC ISO. Its basically 38 posts of town goodness. I started doing post by post analysis like I did with UT and Taz, when I realized that after every quote I was just basically saying "I agree". TDC is almost certainly town.

Do you plan on ISO'ing Dr. Pepper? Wouldn't that be relevant as well?

IIRC Dr.Pepper was like 8 or so bullet list points that didn't really make a whole lot of sense. I'll look at the ISO, but I don't feel to hopeful about finding anything useful there.

[Tazaro]

@podium: Where does your read of Taz come from? meta only? He looks really scummy to me.

LMP: You have no idea what I put the Open Game, Trendy and Subversive, through.

[TDC]

LMP: I agree that Taz is terrible. But I think claiming a PR like that when you were to claim after him was a significant risk. And just a Watcher is rather weak. Maybe nor outrageously weak, but still. I don't think the Zod-track-and-lynch is that relevant either. (I would say tracking him wasn't that good a choice in the first place).

I agree that it was a risk, but I don't think it can be ruled out. Notice how he didn't want to claim targets but asked for my claim right away. Only when others said "we want your targets" did he give them up. This links with my above point about how scum can make bad fake-claims too. Could be that he didn't want to commit to the gambit in case I was an actual power role. And if they are 2 goons, then 1 watcher only isn't that hard to believe. I don't think we should turn the game into trying to outguess the mod on setup. 1 tracker 1 watcher is possible, and just 1 watcher vs goons is also possible.

Oh I didn't mean to imply that I'd rule it out, just that it's something that should be considered (you seemed very sure about him being UT's partner).

--

UT's scum buddy. Who could it be? If it's not LMP, then that's a really tough dilemma to figure out.

What is the point of this post?

--

LMP: I think what's putting me off of really considering Taz-podium is that UT seems to be the most competent player of the three and yet dropped that hammer yesterday and the Taz vote today. Also, what would be the point if Taz' claim in that case? UT was looking a very likely lynch so why throw a spanner into that with the claim?
And while I understand why you think it's just podium defending Taz it is still valid evidence that Taz might actually play that badly as town. podium desperately clinging onto the Dr. P thing and trying to find one other person that agrees (presumably to facilate lynching me tomorrow) seems to tie into that well enough.
His sudden urge to lynch UT could be read either way I suppose. At the time we were both relatively clear we wanted UT dead so he may well have thought it was inevitable and he'd better be on it than not. The only question here would be why he brought up the Taz-meta in the first place when that would've been a mislynch opportunity for either today or tomorrow, and probably an easier one than trying to recreate the Dr P lynch.
As for UT-Taz.. what do you make of UT's reaction to the claim? Panicking over what he might've thought was a particularly bad fake claim? If they were going to bus, why not have Taz claim to have seen UT kill Incognito?

[podium123456]

This post is one giant wall of saying things that don't really mean anything. I think you manage to imply Me, ABR, Dr.P, Nexus, and UT are scummy in the same post. Looks like a lot of IIOA with 0 scum hunting.

Saying things that dont mean anything? I disagree... i raised several scummy actions and explained them. And IIOA? Did i not analyze multiple events? How is that information instead of analysis?

Also, a summary post is going to be more observation based than scumhunting.

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If anyone was worried, TDC/podium is NOT a scum team in this game, based on these interactions.

TDC/podium is not a scum team because of the events that transpired today. How do those quotes show that TDC/podium wasn't possible?

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I'm not a fan of how all the interaction of D1 went down between podium and me. I said I was willing to hammer ABR because of his attempt to hammer TDC before he even had a chance to claim. Then podium tells me to not hammer "just for the sake of hammering". I had never said I was gonna hammer for the sake of hammering.

In re-reading this discussion i just realized what some of the confusion was about. When you said:

Still love my vote. I'm sympathetic to an ABR wagon though, for the "hammer".

I thought you meant for

you

to hammer... not for

his

hammer. You pointed it out to me, and i still mis-interpreted it. I was only paying attention to the 'im sympathetic to an abr wagon' part. In 131, taz appears to do the same thing.

My mistake.

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And another defense of Taz.
@podium: Where does your read of Taz come from? meta only? He looks really scummy to me.

1. Claimed tracker (because of my thoughts about the setup)
2. Meta

Also, let's not forget that you made a meta defense of taz in this game as well...

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it's been a while, so i'm assuming that zodiark read my last post and chose not to respond... so
VOTE: Zodiark13
For refusing to discuss the problem with me, and to move the game along. If he responds, i can reconsider. That puts him at L-1.

This is an example of podium following the crowd. He didn't get on Zodiark wagon early D2, but just followed the crowd with this vote.

I was the first person to call out Zodiark on D2, and posed a question to him about the matter. Myself and 2 others expressed suspicion and then you voted him. Why am i following the crowd, but you aren't?

Did i follow the crowd on D1?

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Personally i still find Dr. P's rage quit scummy, and that's probably always going to be associated with that slot for the rest of the game.
*cut*
That's about all i got... can't really get into this game, and haven't seen much that has jumped out and grabbed me.

This is another post where you point out a number of possibilities, but don't really take a hard stance on any of them.

It's another summary post... why are you cherry picking those and painting me as a 'wishy-washy' player? Have i not taken hard stances in this game?

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i dont have a town read on anyone at this point, pretty much. if i had to pick right now, id probably go with the low hanging fruit... UT.

The "I don't have a town read on anyone" is also pretty scummy

Why?

as is the follow-up to that being go for the easy lynch that others are pushing.

A little disingenuous... no one was really pushing for his lynch, he was low hanging fruit because of his hammer.

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@Podium: Do you admit that I made a case on UT D1? Do you admit that absolutely NO ONE agreed or really even discussed my case? Do you admit that D2 when I was pushing Zodiark, I was still probbing UT over his fence-sitting? If you don't admit any of these, please explain because I'm pretty sure they are fact. If you do admit them, then please explain what was bad about moving my vote to UT when someone from town finally started paying attention to my case.

Honestly, i found the LMP/UT arguments extremely boring... UT's massive posts didn't help. I don't even remember what your argument was (if i ever did) at this point. However, i did already answer your question in thispost.

[podium123456]

Why is only 1 pr for town unlikely, particularly with a powerful PR like watcher?

Watcher is weaker than a cop... is cop + a protective role a common setup? Yes... so having only a watcher PR isn't likely. If cop + doc and 2 goons is balanced, how would a weaker town PR and 2 goons be balanced?

I understand speculation about a setup can be risky... but do you really think that watcher + 2 goons is balanced?

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Do you plan on ISO'ing Dr. Pepper? Wouldn't that be relevant as well?

IIRC Dr.Pepper was like 8 or so bullet list points that didn't really make a whole lot of sense. I'll look at the ISO, but I don't feel to hopeful about finding anything useful there.

He was on a lot of peoples scum lists based off of that activity... dont understand why you would choose to overlook that portion of the slots game activity.

[Tazaro]

This situation reminds me of my first newbie game; I replaced into a situation in which two people (a poster named Sauron and my scum partner, Leech) were voting for each other, in LyLo, and the rest of the town had to choose between them, and I was able to cast my vote and wait to see if the deciding vote from another person will be a hammer leading to a mislynch. The people in this game have to make the right decision about whom they trust--me or UT. I can't be that difficult to read me and get a sense of whether I'm more innocent than UT, can it?

[podium123456]

*facepalm*

[LimMePls]

As for UT-Taz.. what do you make of UT's reaction to the claim? Panicking over what he might've thought was a particularly bad fake claim?

I thought it looked like "I know I'm going down today, let me try and distance from my buddy as much as possible".

If they were going to bus, why not have Taz claim to have seen UT kill Incognito?

This is an excellent question. Taz's claim being fake is seeming less and less likely.