Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[DemonHybrid]

I know, apologies on that.

6 games, homework and half-asleepness does not a good combination make.

I'll read over this Far Cry stuff. Nexus is probably still my #1 scumread, but let me do a quick readthrough.

[Far_Cry]

I know, apologies on that.

6 games, homework and half-asleepness does not a good combination make.

I'll read over this Far Cry stuff. Nexus is probably still my #1 scumread, but let me do a quick readthrough.

6 games? I feel like I'm in deep shit when I have 4.... plus you have homework. This is off-topic, but what college to you go to?

[DemonHybrid]

I don't think Far Cry is a hypocrite at all. I don't get why everyone's even calling it that, it's such a stretch to say that he's being a "hypocrite" by trying to encourage discussion and not do it himself. Are you guys that impatient and suspect him because he didn't do it in the same post? It seems like he clearly knows what's going on and it's unfair to gang up on him like that after one or two posts. Reads come gradually.

I'm not going to harp on Thor about the issue.....

HOWEVER

Unvote, Vote: redtail

I can understand one person going a bit far with the "hypocrite" comments, but two people shows blatant parroting of an argument.

I would say....Nexus/Redtail team for right now. Nexus is lurking after getting caught being too srs.

Preview edit: Bloomsburg of PA, for ASL Interpreting.

[Thor665]

I fully understand what hyporcrisy is, and it's reasonable to accuse me of it.

This is bullSmurf. Hyprocrisy suggests lies, as you have stated, and is true. I, however, have not said any lies as of yet, so don't tell me that you can use that against me.

So was my accusation reasonable or was it not reasonable?
When you mix anger with appeasement they sort of cancel each other out.

But it shouldn't warrant such a level of suspicion as to have me lynched on the spot (as Thor has stated, saying that if he could, he would lynch me now.)

Any vote not made with that belief behind it is a vote that isn't worth the bytes it is generated upon.
Also, I said 'if I had to', not 'if I could'. Bit of a difference is to be found therein.
I'm starting to be more of a 'if I could' mentality on this point though.

I'm also fascinated by how many people are now excited about the Nexus wagon because now he's being quiet. Wh-what? Wasn't I running him up on "over-defensiveness" or something? This is silly. The next person who mentions how it's suspicious that Nexus is being quiet should be obligated to actually also explain the case/questions that Nexus is avoiding by being quiet.

[DemonHybrid]

You said something to Nexus in RVS. Nexus responded so srs. We vote him. He shuts up.

If that's not 100% scummy behavior, I don't know what is. Bark.

[Thor665]

I don't think Far Cry is a hypocrite at all.

Far_Cry disagrees with you - sometimes.

Neutral on your redtail read - it requires both him and I to accept your opinion of what is or is not hypocrisy in order for it to serve as a relevant scumtell.

Do you actually believe Nexus is dodging something? If he's been caught so dead to rights that he's dodging something why wouldn't you stay on the obv. scum - why is redtail so much more clearly scum?
If you don't believe he's dodging why keep bringing it up? I feel like I'm missing something - what is it?

[DemonHybrid]

I believe Nexus is avoiding the argument, so yes, he's dodging the argument, I would say.

Pressure is wonderful. I'm here to scumhunt, you know, not tunnel one person. I'm still very well aware of Nexus' scumminess, but that doesn't mean I'm capable of examining others for information and using whatever tools at my disposal to do so.

[singersigner]

You said something to Nexus in RVS. Nexus responded so srs. We vote him. He shuts up.

If that's not 100% scummy behavior, I don't know what is. Bark.

I don't believe this is scummy behavior for Nexus. He's apt to learning. He doesn't go about this the right way, but he takes it to heart and genuinely wants to learn how to be a better player. It almost got him lynched in the newbie game we were in together, and he was town. Honestly, I think it's a null-tell. I'd have to find more pieces of the puzzle in order to really find him scummy, so everyone on his wagon for

this particular reason

should stfu.

[Nexus]

@Far_Cry: That was pretty much a fail by me. It was supposed to come out as sarcasm, I do in fact find it a little suspicious that he was quite happy to jump wagons-in RVS, if you want a wagon to get going, stay on the one you choose unless you have an actual solid reason to change. I find the reasons for my wagon a little clutchy at straws, especially because I was annoyed that Thor said I had misrepped something, and wanted to know what I had, or what had been interpreted as such, so then getting a wagon on me was confusing, but eh.


I didn't post because I've recently become unemployed, and so have spent the last day and a half on the phone to various companies to try and sort something out. However, nothing's come to fruition, so I'll be posting more again.

I realise it's been briefly mentioned, but why is Jack waiting until page 5, and why haven't more people been bothered by this? In what way is it beneficial to the town that he waits until page five to read and input? I'm finding that quite suspicious, and so I am going to

unvote

and VOTE: Jack until he comes back and explains what's going on.

[DemonHybrid]

Jack hasn't done anything scummy so far. Sure, it's weird, but that's Jack's playstyle and is completely null.

[DemonHybrid]

You said something to Nexus in RVS. Nexus responded so srs. We vote him. He shuts up.

If that's not 100% scummy behavior, I don't know what is. Bark.

I don't believe this is scummy behavior for Nexus. He's apt to learning. He doesn't go about this the right way, but he takes it to heart and genuinely wants to learn how to be a better player. It almost got him lynched in the newbie game we were in together, and he was town. Honestly, I think it's a null-tell. I'd have to find more pieces of the puzzle in order to really find him scummy, so everyone on his wagon for

this particular reason

should stfu.

So, he gets a free pass because he's new?

Uhhhhhhh....haha, I wish I got that sort of treatment when I started playing.

[Thor665]

I do in fact find it a little suspicious that he was quite happy to jump wagons-in RVS, if you want a wagon to get going, stay on the one you choose unless you have an actual solid reason to change. I find the reasons for my wagon a little clutchy at straws

My wagon before you was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay^3 more clutchy at straws then your wagon.
I had a solid reason to change.
Vote hopping is not a scumtell unless it is done in a way that will advance scum's agenda.
Otherwise it is null, some players hop like jackrabbit's on crystal meth and others move more like a tortoise on Vicodin.
Have you addressed yet why you find my shift so 'hoppy' and DH's shift not worth mention? Someone asked this earlier and I thought it was a good question.

I realise it's been briefly mentioned, but why is Jack waiting until page 5, and why haven't more people been bothered by this? In what way is it beneficial to the town that he waits until page five to read and input? I'm finding that quite suspicious, and so I am going to unvote and Jack until he comes back and explains what's going on.

"Hey Ma, found a way to park my vote safely and lurk for at least another full page - yay me!"

In more seriousness, Jack is probably waiting because he wishes to get a solid few pages to read through before making commentary.
The only way to decide if this is scummy is to wait and see what he says and how he acts when he comes out the other side of page 5.
Until then it's null and is basically a policy vote based on lurking, which is not the most strategic vote right at the moment.
If you're still learning the game then, scum or town, pay attention to Jack's playstyle. I found it really interesting in my first game with him.

[Thor665]

Apologies, the above was going to be attached to this one to make one bigger single post. Instead I'll just be a bit spammy. The 'Hey Ma' joke would have been funnier if taken in the proper order, I think.

Pressure is wonderful. I'm here to scumhunt, you know, not tunnel one person.

"Hey, Ma, I found scum! Oh, don't worry Ma, I won't vote them, that would be rude. I'll go find MORE scum based off connections to the obvious scum I've already caught who I'm not voting and who we haven't gotten a confirmation flip out of! I know Ma, BEST PLAN EVAH!"

I need less scummy players, please.

I don't believe this is scummy behavior for Nexus. He's apt to learning. He doesn't go about this the right way, but he takes it to heart and genuinely wants to learn how to be a better player.

What makes you think his current playstyle is more earnest town and less dodgy scum?

[DemonHybrid]

So yeahhhh, that's totally not what I meant, but whatever's cool with you I guess.

I'm guessing you're not one for information.

[Thor665]

If it's not what you meant why don't you try rephrasing what you said to help me understand?

[DemonHybrid]

I don't how I can make it any clearer than "I'm trying to scumhunt", I.E: I'm questioning everyone and using the power of my vote to extract information from multiple people.

[Thor665]

Then how about how do you disagree with my take on your actions? You seem to have announced obv. scummorz is obv. and yet you decided not to try to carry the case through, what's up with that?

[nhammen]

I must admit I am a bit surprised at how hostile people have been to Far_cry. Even if he was being hypocritical by asking people to talk more or to say more substantive things (without doing so himself), I don't think this kind of hypocrisy is a scum-tell, nor even a sign of poor town play. It seemed like an innocent comment to get people in general to talk more given that we still have yet to hear from people at all so far. Moreover, in mafia I think that even banal comments such as "talk more" can have interesting consequences, and I think that it is right to conclude that the things Far_cry have said so far, as inconsequential as they may seem at face value, turned out to yield things of importance (namely, the defensive reactions to him by Thor, and some of the comments by nhammen). [I recognize that this last sentence is a shaky argument, so nothing should hinge upon it too much]

But getting back to the point, I guess my question for Thor is: What makes Far_cry's hypocrisy a scum-tell, rather than simply bad play-style? I ask this from you since you voted for him, rather than simply calling him in out on it. Nhammen agreed with your claims, but did not place a vote, so my question is not directed at him (though he is free to weigh in on it).

I actually have seen similar play to Far_Cry's before (wanting more info, but not doing anything to provide it), and I usually regard it as a newb-tell rather than a scum-tell. On the other hand, his join date is over a year ago, and this does not quite match. His comments may be more scummy when combined with later information.

nhammen- Who do you find more suspicious: Thor, Nexus, or me?

This early in the game, it is tough to find the difference between levels of scummy. Thor's attacks remind me of my play as scum in my most recent game. But he has also been the most active participant, and I can easily see pro-Town motivation for his play, so there is no way I am voting him. Nexus' comment on Thor's jumping but not on Demon's is odd, but not scummy by itself. I would have liked an answer to my comment though. He seems to have completely ignored it. You have been playing in a very newb way, but you have over a year on site. Something's not adding up. But I would say that you are the most scummy of the three, by a hair, or by epsilon, or whatever you prefer.

Andrigan: What do you think of Thor?

I was initially worried that he might be scum trying to quickly implant many small seeds of suspicion about people and let them run their course (against innocent townies). However, he has followed up on many of those seeds (instead of deflecting and planting more) which leads me to believe that instead he is planting traps for scum to fall into, rather than deliberately planing seeds of suspicion against townies.

So very true. But why are you drawing attention to someone else's traps? If you identify them, shouldn't you let them lie hidden, to see if they catch someone? Also, why were you looking for traps in the first place?

Have you addressed yet why you find my shift so 'hoppy' and DH's shift not worth mention? Someone asked this earlier and I thought it was a good question.

I'm wondering if he missed my question or what. Very curious. I would almost say suspicious.

[DemonHybrid]

You're just repeating your questions at this point. I feel Nexus is scummy and I feel redtail is scummy. I only have one vote. Who do I want to pressure more with it? That's all there is to it.

[DemonHybrid]

You're just repeating your questions at this point. I feel Nexus is scummy and I feel redtail is scummy. I only have one vote. Who do I want to pressure more with it? That's all there is to it.

This was meant for thor.

[Thor665]

I'm wondering if he missed my question or what. Very curious. I would almost say suspicious.

::shrug:: pick one for yourself and run with it. I don't find it inherently suspicious since poor reading comprehension is (unfortunately) not a scumtell. The suspicious part is the possible disconnect in his head regarding DH and me.

[Thor665]

You're just repeating your questions at this point. I feel Nexus is scummy and I feel redtail is scummy. I only have one vote. Who do I want to pressure more with it? That's all there is to it.

Has redtail committed a 100% scummy action?

[singersigner]

I don't believe this is scummy behavior for Nexus. He's apt to learning. He doesn't go about this the right way, but he takes it to heart and genuinely wants to learn how to be a better player.

What makes you think his current playstyle is more earnest town and less dodgy scum?

Because in his first game, I saw the same behavior as town. I don't think it's indicative of scum.

[Thor665]

Link?

[Nexus]

nhammen: I was too focussed on Thor because he was the one that caught my attention first. I don't know why I didn't address Demon either.

Sorry, I missed the question first time around.