Trouble in Minas Tirith! Game over!

[Tigris]

confirm

[Tigris]

Well, the Haradrim are allied with Sauron, so I would assume that they are evil, especially with the whole 'feared' thing. That said, someone actually killed DP on the first night? Why would anyone even think about trying that with how likely he is to be protected? Also, it might just be who taught me, but killing the most experienced players on the first night was strongly looked down upon. *breathes deeply* Okay that's out of my system. Actually, not a bad night, 1 scum dead at least.

Oh and don't hold your breath for Macros to reveal the role descriptions. ^_^

[Tigris]

Well, would quote the mod, but I kinda like breathing, so . . .
I merely yahood their name and go figure, it came up with sites ^_^
*shrug* Sides, yer games are fun (when I'm not dying by a blunt fork that is) O_o

Anyhows, uhm, just for clarification ben, you are asking for the mod to unvote your vote for gia (gnome-it-all, geez what's wrong with a nice six or seven letter screen-name, youngsters these days *gets out cane*) if gia's vote is random? If that is the case, uhm, yeah, mods don't do that, it gives away in-game knowledge, just an fyi if that is the case.

vote: orbiting

Meh, random. Oh and

fos: the pizza

, it's

obviously

the accomplice, *nibbles on the pizza*

[Tigris]

*waps Thoth with tail, *

I was merely joking gia, I have no problems with anyones name here *shrug* I'm 24 (physically) going on 12 (mentally), but the reason why I said youngsters and grabbed a cane was the joined date ^_^.

That said

OMGUS FoS: FD

, the only connections I can see between Thoth and I are that we know the theme somewhat, so we knew the Haradrim were evil (of course that doesn't make us Haradrim ), and that we are making out of game comments, which make the game more enjoyable, especially at 3 am in the morning or even 12 in the afternoon after getting no sleep the previous night.

[Tigris]

, so because I am paranoid of what I think will become people's crap logic arguments I'm scum, . . . right. I'm just paranoid in general with these games, it is the nature of the beast. Oh and that crap logic about me being Haradrim because I deny it. Please read the entire post, it was completely tongue-in-cheek, so if you are going to say I am suspicious because of sarcasm, go ahead I'll keep in mind to only make in-game comments from now on ^_^

Yes, I do have a night choice, as does likely everyone else here. No, my night choice had nothing to do with any of the three named as passing through that gate, nor does it have anything to do with FD.

No, I am not scum and find the argument that because 4 people entered one of the possible ways into an area that one must have killed the one that died. There are other ways into that area and the stone did not necessarily come from that area. So I find that particular argument to be crap logic as it ignores other possibilities.

[Tigris]

Uhm, I did. In the very part you quoted in fact.

1) It came from somewhere else. It's not like pillars can't be thrown from one area to another with a catapult or something along those lines. In fact, unless we have an Ent randomly crushing people with them, I can't think of a way in which someone would throw a pillar at someone.

2) There are 7 gates, he was on the sixth. That means there are at least two ways into the area he is talking about. Additionally, does the information give direction of traffic? No, it doesn't so how do we know that DP and any of the three were even in the same area? We don't. Do we know when people went through? No, so if DP went through the gate in the opposite way from Thoth for example, they wouldn't even be in the same area at time of death.

So I guess three possibilities under 2 headings. I need to get to work, but there you go.

[Tigris]

Only one left to lynch, let's be careful here. There is likely still more to discuss.

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*shrug* I couldn't come up with more to discuss (hence how short that post was compared to others I have made recently), but thought others might. If not I have enough suspicions of ZA to lynch him. I just didn't/don't want anyone else to 'accidently' lynch him or for anyone to say that I killed discussion by voting to lynch him.

fos: ZA

, which will turn into a vote later on, 16 hours maybe? Depends on when I get back tonight/tomorrow.

[Tigris]

Okay, so I'm back to somewhat of sanity after a quite unexpected need to move, but not fully, likely to be highly moody, even more paranoid then usual, and 'quirky' for a while.

First off, not quoting the mod, but Macros wrote that

one

of the Haradrim was a killer. I don't know how important that might be later in the game, but we likely shouldn't forget about that. It mirrors Macros' last game of having 2 innocents tied to a serial killer (who ended up winning the game, but I digress ) Course, we don't know the mechanism of this, so not too much can be read into it, yet at least.

Secondly, I said it before and I will say it again, there is very little that can be made of the gate observations, imo. Since they do not (to my knowledge) include timing or direction, they can't be used for much. The only exception is if by some quirk all the evil characters are outside of the primary gate and they must enter each night, which is unlikely imo.

Thirdly,

swat of tail: FD

, please don't ever ask a doc to come out on the second day of a normal sized game. I would vote for you, but you seem to be on the level, for now at least. Although, I suppose that would be a good way to hide scuminess, with a completely unprovable role, but that is my paranoia talking.

Fourthly, 2 docs and a cop dead. Great, just what we don't need. At least we have 3 scum (?) dead. The reason I put the question mark is the whole one of the haradrim was a killer, so it's possible (though not probable) that either Fish or Zone wasn't evil. By my count,
-2 Haradrim (sword wielder)
-1 Khand (ax wielder)
-0 pillars , quishifiers

[Tigris]

Apologies in advance if this offends anyone, but I have to do this, my mind is too flighty right now. The urge is too great, especially with Macros modding Monty Python right now. ^_^ Sorry about the massacre of Monty Pythonian quotes.

Person 1: *happily* Leo's a killer!!

Person 2: *confused* What? Why's that?

1

: *confidently and proud* Well, FD say him walk under a gate.

2: He did what now?

1: *emphatically nodding head* He walked under a gate.

3: What does that have to do with killing?

1: And the other person that went through that gate . . . *whispered awe* was a virgo

2: *shocked* Ye don't say. I would never have thought that would happen, . . . *confused* wait why does that matter?

1: *daunted* Well, everyone knows that virgos aren't killers *shakes head*

2: *shifts eyes* R-r-right, of course not, why that'd be downright silly.

1: And Zoneace killed the elven bishounen (DP) and he walked under a gate with him. . .

3: Wait, wait, wait, Zoneace used a sword, so unless his sword magically turns into a pillar he killed the king of angst, I mean Gondor (mlaker) and not DP.

2: *interrupts* I saw a sword turn into a pillar once.

4: *nods head vigorously and almost falls over drunk* He did too, . . . course he was so drunk that he thought he turned into a newt too.

5: *Bedeverian* We'll use my largest scale.

All: *speechless* . . . What does that have to do with anything?!?

5: Well, pillars are made of stone and what does stone do in fire?

3: Nothing, what does that have to . *interrupted*

1: So, if Leo doesn't burn . . .

5: Then he is . . ?

2: A pillar!!!

5: *happy* Precisely, we'll use my largest scale.

3: WHAT THE ^*#@ DOES A SCALE HAVE TO DO WITH FIRE?!?!?!?!

4: *hoboishly* I need something to drink, hey buddy got any change?
*4 spontaniously combusts, . . . and there was much rejoicing*

[Tigris]

[OT] ^_^ [/OT]

Hmm, good point Thoth I hadn't thought about that, too accustomed to thinking of mafias roving in packs I guess.

Anyhows, as to the riven thingy, something vaguely tells me that I think there is more substance to this then the other one, I'm not sure though

vote: riven

, that's five and nine to lynch, so let's hear him out before lynching, k ^_^

[Tigris]

unvote: Riven

, may as well give him time to prove/disprove.
I suppose it is better then random to vote for mgia. Two things that might want to be looked at though. Zoneace voted FD on the same page as mgia did. However, at that point Fd hadn't said anything about being a guard or any other information, so he was suspicious at the time, imo, so I will leave it as an

fos: mgia

for now.

[Tigris]

This game is slightly strange to me, just because the scum seem to be as likely to kill each other as pro-town people, it's kindof strange to me. Hopefully it will make more sense to me on days I don't have 11 and 1/2 hours of class ^_^

One thing that I think should be discussed is how to use the gate guard (or whatever the name of FD's role is), personally, I think the best choice would be to set him up on outer gate, just because then if someone claims to have no night choice, it is fairly definite they are lying (since why else tould they go outside of the city). Additionally, I would think that the chance of someone being mafia might be slightly increased if they have to go through that gate (maybe I'm not entirely sure, but there is a chance).

[Tigris]

The bear is imitating a cartoon character and not staying dead and is replacing the banana. I wish I had that ability

Oh and no lynch is always (usually ^_^) an option for the town, but is usually not the best option. There are other reasons why I think watching the outer gate might be beneficial, but hopefully FD can pick up on why.

Oh and Phoebus, I rountinely ignore singular votes and as to he/she thing, 'Sore wa himitsu des' (That would be a secret ^_^), so no worries it's usually the furthest thing from my mind when playing games, I just don't give out that info (highly, highly paranoid for some odd reason ^_~).

[Tigris]

Well, since I was one of the named people to go through that gate on the first night and there seemed to be as much suspicion of me I thought that pointing out the holes in the role would be a good idea, still do in fact. I still think that there were some very large assumptions made on the first day about the role. And let's not forget the fact that while ZA was a killer, he didn't kill anyone that traveled through that gate (according to FD). 'Good information' is very much subjective, especially when you are one of the ones targeted with 'good information'. I was not defending ZA, I was defending myself. So do I have a self-serving reason to discredit the idea that FD's investigations are fool-proof, better believe it And in general it is a good idea to try to discredit faulty logic, as it tends to get pro-town people killed. Scenario: same people go through that gate day one, I die via the pillars as opposed to DP, suspicion falls on him, oh wait he was innocent wasn't he.

As to the random vote, I don't vote very often, ever. So I usually just let my random vote stay there for a while, notice how I have only voted once today, while there have been 4 bandwagons? I am also cautious when it comes to ending days. Anyone who has played games with me likely knows this to be true, it's just generally a good idea imo.

[Tigris]

*warning* irritated post
It would also completely unbalance the game. Additionally, there is a number game that (to my eye) would cause that to be unlikely.

There are three killing groups+. Let's assume 1 sk and two mafias. Now then, if Thoth, ZA, Fishbulb, and I were all in a mafia, the other mafia would likely have 4 as well to balance the game more properly. That would mean that out of 22 players, 9 are evil, which is highly unlikely.

Okay, that's it, you have officially irritated me with your crap logic. Point one, who is the one that helped ZA on the first day, it wasn't me, look in the mirror for a moment and you'll see. First, you tell him to give more information as your role received more then he initially provided. Then you proceeded to find a description of the role in Encyclopedia of Arda. Oh and need I really say that you didn't vote for zoneace? Don't throw stones from glass houses.

Combine that with following the bandwagon on Leo, which I thought was complete bunk and was fairly blunt about my opinion on it. Oh wait, I defended Leo too, twice even, you even quoted it one time, but let's forget about that.

Oh and combine that with the fact that

one

of the Haradrim was a killer, which to my eye (via Thoth who pointed it out) that means that they don't rove around in packs, especially since if they did then FD would have seen Fishbulb under the gate on night one as well, now wouldn't he?

vote: ages

, yes it is an irritation vote and might not be the wisest thing to do, but the amount of crap logic is just plain annoying. At this point, whether you are pro-town or not is actually secondary to my mind, logic of the sort you have produced gets towns killed, so you are as dangerous to the town as the mafia imo.

This isn't even going into the hypocricy of attacking mgia for being the ninth vote for zoneace as an attempt to disassociate himself from za, yet my 'defending him' from a quick lynch is suspicious. So what isn't suspicious, if I may ask? Don't worry rhetorical question. The plan earlier was complete junk imo, if everyone voted for one other person, then logically a mafia would vote for another mafia member, . . . and then 5 seconds before deadline unvote. That would leave one pro-town and one mafia, mafia win.

[Tigris]

My apologies ages, I have a slight temper (hence one of the reasons for the screen-name), so when something irritates me, I tend to go overboard, plus I was slightly tired, but those are just excuses, so my apologies, I should have worded my accusations more mildly. the fact that I am tending towards agreeing with what you have posted might have something to do with my contrition as well >_>, maybe. ^_^

unvote: ages

I have seen ben act this same way before as a pro-town role, but I suppose that the style would not change with allegience, so I guess I am up in the air about him. =/

[Tigris]

If I was voting for you ben, I would unvote.

There is one thing I am curious about though. If you got leo as innocent why vote for him? I am not asking because I do not believe your claim as on the first day you voted za with more zest then I have seen you vote for anyone before, so I believe that you did investigate him, I'm just curious.

[Tigris]

Oh and thanks ages ^_^ and that actually makes sense for you ben ^_^.

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Replacement is typically far preferable to lynching someone who has left; however, I don't have much to go on in this game and perhaps another night and the time associated with it to re-read the thread (as it will take me a few days to have the time, sorry) would be preferable. I'll have to think about it a bit more before voting, but thankfully I have hours of mind-numbingly boring things to do today so joy ^_^, or something

[Tigris]

I suppose that that answers my dilemma quite effectively. I would ask if you had anything that would help in the current dilemma of what to do, but since you are more experienced then I, I kinda trust your instincts in that matter ^_~.

[Tigris]

The Harad

r

im? I'm just playing. ^_^

There has to be something to discuss, *wracks brain, which isn't working since it is 5 am* *sigh* if nothing else I will try to find something tonight after class, I get out at 9pm, so hopefully I can find something/anything to talk about a bit after that. In the meantime (if he/they get on before then), I would like to hear scalebane's thoughts, just because he hasn't posted in a while (I was looking over the list of remaining people and his jumped out as not talking much, along with a few others who are posting, just not much of substance, imo, so hearing from them would be likewise helpful.

[Tigris]

Personally, I agree with ages,

vote: no lynch

, if this earns me a few votes or a lynch, fine whatever, I would prefer to actually play the game as I think it should be played as opposed to following a bandwagon, which have been hurting the town imo. The only saving grace that I see for the bandwagons is that most of them stop when they receive a name, so the mafia doesn't get too much information. Furthermore, out of 6 dead, 3 are scum, so why potentially waste that advantage by bandwagoning and lynching pro-town roles?

fos: mathcam

, no one else that suggested no lynch as a viable option voted for ages. Plus there is an amount of omgus, just because I am sick of hearing him say I am suspicious, but giving me nothing to defend against.

[Tigris]

Well, to answer to something a bit ago, I wondered if all the Haradrim were evil based on two facts that I put together, unfortunately they added to 3 instead of 2, but meh. Essentially, Macros told us that one of the Haradrim was a killer, so I added that to the previous Macros game where I was a innocent mason attached to a serial killer and a vigi doc(?), so I thought that perhaps that mechanism was in this game, especially given that there was not a sword killing last night after it was revealed that za had blood on his blade; however, as Thoth pointed out Tolkien was very definitive on who was innocent/guilty, so mixing things like that would be contrary to the work that the theme is based on.

As to the no lynch vs must lynch, ordinarily I am against both no lynch and bandwagons for claims, as I find both of them to be detrimental. However, right now I see a town populated with people who will not change bandwagons based upon suspicions, but rather due to role-claims. Therefore, I find no lynch to be a less damaging prospect then mass claiming (which is where bandwagoning for claims ultimately leads imo). If people were proposing to only vote for those that they find suspicious to see reactions and answers to suspicions, I would support bandwagons at this point; however, I doubt that scenario will occur, so I have to vote as I think will most benefit the town.

[Tigris]

Well, since the issue of sanity has been dealt with (Denethor is not the most stable person in the novels after all) (via the FD investigation), there seems little enough reason to not

vote: Thoth

. It's 8 to lynch and my vote puts it at 5.

However, I also think we have more to discuss (and this might have something to do with the fact that I'm only in 3 non-night games right now and I need to discuss mafia a bit). Why only 1 kill last night? We had three night one, but only one last night. Also, why haven't the Haradrim killed since the first night? Were there only 2 or is there a role-blocker or something along those lines that knows who is amongst them? If that is the case then I think they should come forward (assuming they are not blocking Thoth) and we have a prime target for any vigilantees (should we have any more, if not tomorrow's lynch is all set).

[Tigris]

Bah, I typed FD and meant zoneace earlier for verifying ben's investigations.

fos: phoebus

, just because asking for the mechanics from a cop is generally a bad/scummy thing to do in my eyes. Having the town not know the mechanics makes it easier for the cop to catch scum in a lie.

As to the one kill last night, maybe the Haradrim are lying low due to having two members killed night and day one and didn't want to get caught doing anything? The other possibility I can think of comes from a mini when one killing group tried to kill the godfather of another group, which obviously didn't go through. Or perhaps a doctor got lucky, although personally I guess I see someone going after corsato more then ben, but perhaps I am wrong. I just don't want to forget that there are 3 killing groups, who might still be alive and if we go into endgame not knowing that number, our chances of winning decrease dramatically.

[Tigris]

Perhaps I'm giving Ben too much credit, or the opposite is true and others aren't giving him enough. He has a result on a guilty (who turns out to be guilty), then an innocent response, then guilty. To me that is enough to prove his sanity (unless he is random, which is a horrible idea imo). Therefore giving out more information about his role would be classified as a bad thing imo, hence the

fos

. Re-looking at Denethor, I would question his sanity at the time of the battle of Minis Tirith; however, I would not question his allegience. Yes, he tried to burn his son alive, because he thought he was dead and that his line was going to end, defeatist? Yes. Evil? No. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I would look at Denethor. Would I add something about his usage of a palantir? Yes, perhaps along the lines of his sanity becomes more of an issue the more often he uses it, so that is one route by which I could see his information misfiring, imo.

Also, if Ben is evil or something resembling that (via the palantir somehow), there is no reason to come out that early in the day with a result if that is the case. This is especially true if Thoth is innocent, I could possibly see selling a team-mate out first thing in a day, but to perform a lepton's gambit with no pressure on you or another team-mate, sorry but I don't see that happening.

[Tigris]

^_^, actually I tried to kill DS as well, but once I failed I realized he must have been a godfather or something, so since I was alone, I hinted towards the failed kill. I did have one question though, who killed me? Of course the irony is that the Khandish (sp?) were only killed by fellow scum, bah ~_^

[Tigris]

Ah thanks, and thanks for a fun game. ^_^