Mini 1035 - Devil's Town - GAME OVER

[LimMePls]

I'm not going to quote 370. I'll try and answer anything that looks like a question. If I miss something you want answered let me know.

1) No I don't think you did much analysis. All you did was summarize what was happened. The few times you did "analyze" things, it was wishy washy. Example:

LMP - If one of the votes on blaze was a scum vote, my gut says this is the one. but, it could mean nothing.

If

and

but it could mean nothing

. Not exactly taking a stand, looks more like setting yourself up to later call me scum if its convenient.

2) Those quotes show TDC/podium isn't possible because I don't think scum on D1 would have been trying to persuade others to hammer there teammate just to keep another townie from claiming. If your mate was put at L-1 and forced to claim, and then people started looking at another wagon, it would take a lot of guts/really strong scum play to actually say "no no, don't lynch that guy, this guy has already claimed, we should lynch him" knowing that you'd lose your partner on D1.

3) Alright, NOW I understand our confusion. Yes, when I said "for the 'hammer'" I meant ABR's attempt to hammer the replacement without a claim or even a chance to say anything. Not just so that I could hammer. Why would you think I'd vote ABR just to hammer him, that doesn't make sense.

4) I'm starting to see the light on Taz's claim being less likely to come from scum. But the only meta I have is the one game I've seen his town play. I don't know what his scum play looks like, for all I know it is the exact same as his town play. If you have Taz-scum meta I'd love to see a link. Otherwise knowing that he is playing the way he did once as town doesn't tell me that he is town unless I have the scum to contrast it to.

5) Your D1 play in regards to Dr.P wasn't following along, but pretty much everything after that does look like following along to me. You make a lot of summary posts where you point out things but then don't take hard stances on them.

6) I'm pointing out your summary posts because to me they are multiple examples of you making statements like you're on the sideline just pointing things out, but not taking a stance on them. You do it multiple times. The reason I'm "cherry picking" those is because I was quoting the parts of your ISO that looked scummy to me, since the whole purpose of my ISOs was to rank the remaining players.

7) "I don't have a scum read on anyone" is scummy because it plays into opportunistic scum. You get to sit back and see which way the wind is blowing, and no one can contradict you because you get to say "well, everyone looked scummy to me, I said so right here". In my experience playing this game, the most glaring scum tell I've found is people being opportunistic/wishy-washy. When I see statements like those, it immediately sends up a flag.

8) NO ONE WAS PUSHING FOR HIS LYNCH? Are you kidding me!? WOW! I'm simply amazed.

As for 371, I disagree completely with your assertion that watcher is weaker than a cop. Watchers are so powerful some have questioned if they should even be in the game. The ability to find friendly PRs, as well as catch scum is awesome, and if you have a claimed PR to watch, you're essentially guaranteed to find scum. I will assert that a watcher in a setup with no other PRs is weaker than a watcher with other PRs to watch.

[LimMePls]

*facepalm*

QFT.

[podium123456]

1) No I don't think you did much analysis. All you did was summarize what was happened.

In the post in question, i took several observations and explained how they could have scummy motives behind them... how is that not analysis? Tell me what definition of 'analysis' you are holding me to?

The few times you did "analyze" things, it was wishy washy. Example:

More cherry picking.

2) Those quotes show TDC/podium isn't possible because I don't think scum on D1 would have been trying to persuade others to hammer there teammate just to keep another townie from claiming. If your mate was put at L-1 and forced to claim, and then people started looking at another wagon, it would take a lot of guts/really strong scum play to actually say "no no, don't lynch that guy, this guy has already claimed, we should lynch him" knowing that you'd lose your partner on D1.

Still dont see why you think that proves that we aren't a team. Bussing... trying to look town... etc.

5) Your D1 play in regards to Dr.P wasn't following along, but pretty much everything after that does look like following along to me.

D1 - Led the charge
D2 - I made the first argument towards Zordiak's hammer. Again, how am i following, but you aren't? You're vote came after 3 people had already expressed suspicion.
D3 - There's no following here... it's common sense/POE.

6) I'm pointing out your summary posts because to me they are multiple examples of you making statements like you're on the sideline just pointing things out, but not taking a stance on them.

What am i supposed to do... vote every time i see someone do something scummy? I took a hard stance on Dr. P, ABR, Zordiak, and now, UT...

7) "I don't have a scum read on anyone" is scummy because it plays into opportunistic scum. You get to sit back and see which way the wind is blowing, and no one can contradict you because you get to say "well, everyone looked scummy to me, I said so right here".

*TOWN read

I fail to see how that statement is scummy, especially at this stage in the game. How could scum benefit from saying that? I named my lynch choice in the same post. How would someone contradict me?

8) NO ONE WAS PUSHING FOR HIS LYNCH? Are you kidding me!? WOW! I'm simply amazed.

Why? His hammer made him the lynch choice by default, who am i following?

As for 371, I disagree completely with your assertion that watcher is weaker than a cop. Watchers are so powerful some have questioned if they should even be in the game.

I've never seen people prefer to have a watcher instead of a cop. Cop gets a result every single time... a watcher first has to get lucky and choose a target that someone else chooses... and then you still don't know the alignment of the person that visited. (disregarding anti watcher/cop PR's)

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Anyway... are we all ready to vote UT?

[LimMePls]

1) No I don't think you did much analysis. All you did was summarize what was happened.

In the post in question, i took several observations and explained how they could have scummy motives behind them... how is that not analysis? Tell me what definition of 'analysis' you are holding me to?

Its just information if you point out that it could be scummy. Its analysis when you come to a conclusion. I could sit around in a game and point out scummy things people do all day. If I'm unwilling to follow that up with anything then it is worthless and does nothing but make you look like contributing without contributing.

The few times you did "analyze" things, it was wishy washy. Example:

More cherry picking.

And? I've already explained the purpose of the ISO was to look for scummy posts. By definition it would be cherry picking.

2) Those quotes show TDC/podium isn't possible because I don't think scum on D1 would have been trying to persuade others to hammer there teammate just to keep another townie from claiming. If your mate was put at L-1 and forced to claim, and then people started looking at another wagon, it would take a lot of guts/really strong scum play to actually say "no no, don't lynch that guy, this guy has already claimed, we should lynch him" knowing that you'd lose your partner on D1.

Still dont see why you think that proves that we aren't a team. Bussing... trying to look town... etc.

Wow... this is fascinating to me. I think this might be the first time someone has argued with me that their behavior could make them part of a scum team. If this evidence doesn't prove you guys aren't a scum team, then you not hammering today doesn't show it either. You could have just been unwilling to gamble the game if the town voter unvoted when you went for the quick lynch. Which is actually a much safer play if you are reasonably certain you'll get a UT lynch. Which you are now conveniently pushing despite all attempts previously to deny UT-scum.

5) Your D1 play in regards to Dr.P wasn't following along, but pretty much everything after that does look like following along to me.

D1 - Led the charge
D2 - I made the first argument towards Zordiak's hammer. Again, how am i following, but you aren't? You're vote came after 3 people had already expressed suspicion.
D3 - There's no following here... it's common sense/POE.

This quote is getting its own post. This is an outrageous distortion of the facts.

6) I'm pointing out your summary posts because to me they are multiple examples of you making statements like you're on the sideline just pointing things out, but not taking a stance on them.

What am i supposed to do... vote every time i see someone do something scummy? I took a hard stance on Dr. P, ABR, Zordiak, and now, UT...

All easy targets. Again, you only push UT now, but yesterday you argued pretty hard against any suspicions at UT.

7) "I don't have a scum read on anyone" is scummy because it plays into opportunistic scum. You get to sit back and see which way the wind is blowing, and no one can contradict you because you get to say "well, everyone looked scummy to me, I said so right here".

*TOWN read

I fail to see how that statement is scummy, especially at this stage in the game. How could scum benefit from saying that? I named my lynch choice in the same post. How would someone contradict me?

Quite right, I meant town read, not scum. I seriously don't understand these questions. The answers are obvious. If you say you have no town reads, then you are better positioned to vote/hammer any of them because you haven't painted yourself into a corner.

8) NO ONE WAS PUSHING FOR HIS LYNCH? Are you kidding me!? WOW! I'm simply amazed.

Why? His hammer made him the lynch choice by default, who am i following?

So if not for his hammer yesterday you wouldn't find him scummy? But just the hammer means you want him lynched? If he hadn't hammered, would anyone in the game be scummier than him?

As for 371, I disagree completely with your assertion that watcher is weaker than a cop. Watchers are so powerful some have questioned if they should even be in the game.

I've never seen people prefer to have a watcher instead of a cop. Cop gets a result every single time... a watcher first has to get lucky and choose a target that someone else chooses... and then you still don't know the alignment of the person that visited. (disregarding anti watcher/cop PR's)

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Anyway... are we all ready to vote UT?

Nope. I want answers to my most recent questions. I'd also like UT to comment on everything since the last time he posted. His laying low is only making his lynch more inevitable, but we have a lot of time, I see no need to rush this. The more information we get now the better situation we leave ourselves in tomorrow.

[LimMePls]

5) Your D1 play in regards to Dr.P wasn't following along, but pretty much everything after that does look like following along to me.

D1 - Led the charge
D2 - I made the first argument towards Zordiak's hammer. Again, how am i following, but you aren't? You're vote came after 3 people had already expressed suspicion.
D3 - There's no following here... it's common sense/POE.

Here are quotes of all the posts following the start of D2 up until your first post that even mentions Zodiark:

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

Bah, go Town

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

Hang people that make meaningless posts.


<-- but kinda -->

How about we start with "Why was ABR hammered before he claimed?" or "Is there some prize on quick lynching I'm not aware of?"

TDC has made up for Dr P's mistakes, making Dr P seem to me much less like scum and more like a really bad player.

You need to elaborate on this. All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching" (you never responded at all to my suggestion that you used this to load off responsibility for my impending lynch), and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

/confirm
More tonight.

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

In the event this is a serious question, I think we should try to identify the killer based on ed's NK. Obviously either he was suspicious of someone who is scum or created watcher tells/breadcrumbs. There is also the possibility that scum just got lucky, but I personally consider this unlikely.

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

You were going on and on about it as much as one can do within the three or so posts you had between I replaced in and you hammered ABR.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What I am asking is for you to explain what made you change from

I'm fine with my vote

. My second suspicion is Albert.

to (in your very next post)

TDC has made up for Dr P's mistakes, making Dr P seem to me

much less like scum and more like a really bad player

.

(which does not just mean that ABR overtook me in scuminess, but rather directly implies that your suspicion of my slot lessened),
when all that I posted between these two posts is (and I quote in entirety):

@TDC: Could you give a breakdown on all the players? If you are lynched and flip town everyone will have a confirmed honest second opinion.

Meh. ABR's hammer was terrible. Already mentioned that Zord seems to be trying to get the lynch through without being particularly responsible for it. (It would be "anti-town" to not vote me plus the whole appeal to authority (which is kind of funny because he's not actually mentioning where he pulled it) rule two of lynching babble).
That's about it at this point.

I'm undecided-he hasn't really posted all that much relevant (although the same could be said for most people), and he was happy to hammer the player slot before it replaced.

Actually, he hammered one hour after entry was announced.

Mod: I'm voting ABR, not podium.

Ah, wasn't aware my predecessors vote carried over..

unvote, vote ABR

I don't see how these two posts could've changed your opinion of my slot that much, which is what makes me think you were just jumping at the hammer opportunity that presented itself and thought you'd get away with it.

All I see is you going on and on about how I totally should be lynched because I claimed Vanilla and because that's "rule two of lynching"

I said this once, not "going on and on about" as you are attempting to suggest.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

What's gonna be our subject of discourse now it's daytime?

In the event this is a serious question, I think we should try to identify the killer based on ed's NK. Obviously either he was suspicious of someone who is scum or created watcher tells/breadcrumbs. There is also the possibility that scum just got lucky, but I personally consider this unlikely.

I agree with TDC about your hammer of ABR after pushing Dr.P/TDC lynch so hard. Also, given a quick ISO of edmund, I'd like to

Vote: Zodiark13

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

It's also a distraction; what we need to try is to get a handle on Confid Anon's and other people who haven't posted on day two's input and then talk about posts, that are not a matter of wifom, but of interpretation.

Zodiark, trying our hands at identifying, on day two, the killer based on edmund's death is basically a Wifom dead end.

QFT

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum. On the one hand, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper, but on the other hand Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch. But still,

IGMEOY TDC

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim (since there seems to be no vig we couldn't have found him dead last night if he'd claimed a killing PR that someone else had and we kept him alive, or the cop/doc would have had to come out which would have been a bad plan on day 1). We had some discussion before the hammer about the relative intelligence of requiring a claim and I kind of fall on the side of not wanting a second claim on day 1.

I'll have to think/observe/reread more to decide where my vote needs to go.

EBWOP

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing. What would you guys have said if he'd said "oh, uh, I claim cop"? I think revealing ABR's role would have either required a PR to counterclaim .

should read "I think that from our perspective yesterday, revealing ABR's role might have either required a PR to counterclaim .... or we would have just probably ended up lynching a claimed VT anyway."

It's really rough when you have a decent player replace into a slot that was acting like total scum.

On the one hand

, I want to give TDC a chance, because he's not acting anything like Dr Pepper,

but on the other hand

Dr Pepper was acting like scum and I know I should care about the slot more than the player. The best thing to do imo is analyze the surroundings of the Dr Pepper wagon and the ABR lynch.

The bolding is mine. UT is whishy-washy fence sitting again. What a shock.

This game gets my priority tomorrow, so hopefully I'll have a good post tomorrow morning.

I'm not so much thinking that Zodiark hammering before the claim was such a scummy thing.

The problem is not just the claim thing, but the haste in general. The very least he could've done is give everyone (including ABR's potential scumbuddy) a chance to react to the imminent hammer.

And I don't really remember you being particularly suspicious of Dr. P at the time, could you elaborate what exactly it is that bothers you so much about him?

Yah, there's a certain timing element to Zodiak's vote, and from this I see Zodiark's game play as suspect.

Vote: Zodiark

24+ hours and only 3 posts. I'm guessing this game is due for some prods. I have nothing new to add. I'm happy with the wagon and eagerly awaiting ConfidAnon's catch up post.

24+ hours and only 3 posts. I'm guessing this game is due for some prods.

No player is in prod territory.

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Zodiark seems to be the big target today... i'll repeat my earlier comment.

and when the wind turns and ABR is the choice of the moment you suddenly decide I'm oh so town and have made up for Dr P and hammer ABR.

Albert was acting more scummy than you, 'nuff said.

The point is that you said that Dr. P was 'mega-obvious' scum:

Zodiark13 wrote: Seriously, he ragequits the second he get pressure on him. If thats not mega-obv scum right there, then I should stop playing right now, because if it this isn't a perfect(albeit a perfectly poor) example of scummy play, then I know nothing about scumhunting.

and later, you apparently forget about this when the ABR wagon picks up steam. Why do you no longer think that Dr. P was obvious scum? TDC's input has no bearing on the conclusion you reached from Dr. P's behavior.

So, first off you are lying to say you were the first to question him. TDC was. But IMO even worse than that, you only offered your opinion on the matter once practically everyone in the game had chimed in and offered there opinion. The only person who hadn't was ConfidAnon who was a replacement that hadn't ever caught up and eventually gets replaced by Incognito. So you are flat out lying to claim you were the first person to question Zodiark and that you weren't going along with the town, you absolutely were. You even admit it in your post where you finally do discuss it.

Zodiark seems to be the big target today

So you don't begin to even discuss it until it's the "big target today". Until then your only post was a snarky shot at trying to paint Taz as scummy, without actually calling him scummy.

And last, you don't even vote him until much later, and presumably not even because you think he is scum, but as a pressure vote to get him to answer your question:

it's been a while, so i'm assuming that zodiark read my last post and chose not to respond... so

VOTE: Zodiark13

For refusing to discuss the problem with me, and to move the game along. If he responds, i can reconsider. That puts him at L-1.

Leaving yourself wiggle room to leave the wagon if you want. This is textbook scum behavior.

[podium123456]

^^

Oops, another mistake of mine... i thought i made this post at the start of D2, but i made it at the end of D1:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p2494755

...anyway, it doesnt change my point. I was the first person to bring up zodiarks scummy vote, and you voted for him after 3 people had expressed suspicion. Why am i following the crowd, but you aren't?

[podium123456]

Its just information if you point out that it could be scummy. Its analysis when you come to a conclusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis

Analysis: Analysis is the process of breaking a complex topic or substance into smaller parts to gain a better understanding of it.

You're wrong... you don't have to reach a conclusion on something to analyze it.

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If I'm unwilling to follow that up with anything then it is worthless and does nothing but make you look like contributing without contributing.

In that post, i listed my top two scumpicks as Dr. P and ABR... my vote was already on Dr. Pepper. To insinuate that i didn't follow up my talks with action, or to contribute, is false.

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Still dont see why you think that proves that we aren't a team. Bussing... trying to look town... etc.

Wow... this is fascinating to me. I think this might be the first time someone has argued with me that their behavior could make them part of a scum team.

You were very sure of the conclusion you drew from those quotes... which made little sense to me, and it still doesn't.

Then you not hammering today doesn't show it either. You could have just been unwilling to gamble the game if the town voter unvoted when you went for the quick lynch.

Nah... I just won a game as scum by quick hammering in this same type of situation, no reason why i wouldnt have went for it here. Regardless of that wifom, you didn't protest when TDC and myself discussed why certain teams were most likely not possible earlier, but you are now because it fits your current argument.

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Which you are now conveniently pushing despite all attempts previously to deny UT-scum.

This is actually a pretty big misrepresentation/lie. Unless i missed something, i have never tried to deny that UT was scum. To the contrary, the only time i brought UT up was to accuse him of doing something scummy here. Can you provide quotes where i tried to deny that UT was scum?

Again, you only push UT now, but yesterday you argued pretty hard against any suspicions at UT.

Again with the misrepresentation/lie, and now you appear to contradict yourself when compared with this earlier quote:

This post is one giant wall of saying things that don't really mean anything. I think you manage to imply Me, ABR, Dr.P, Nexus,

and UT are scummy

in the same post.

Care to try and explain this?

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6) I'm pointing out your summary posts because to me they are multiple examples of you making statements like you're on the sideline just pointing things out, but not taking a stance on them.

What am i supposed to do... vote every time i see someone do something scummy? I took a hard stance on Dr. P, ABR, Zordiak, and now, UT...

All easy targets.

You are shifting the argument here. This argument wasn't about whether or not people were 'easy' targets, it was that you said i didn't take stances in the game.

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8) NO ONE WAS PUSHING FOR HIS LYNCH? Are you kidding me!? WOW! I'm simply amazed.

Why? His hammer made him the lynch choice by default, who am i following?

So if not for his hammer yesterday you wouldn't find him scummy? But just the hammer means you want him lynched? If he hadn't hammered, would anyone in the game be scummier than him?

I dont see what those speculative questions have to do with your earlier accusation. I didn't have to follow anyone to determine that UT's hammer was scummy... POE makes the decision even easier.

[podium123456]

I guess i'll go ahead and reveal now that earlier when i dropped that little note that i was leaning UT/TDC, it was a ploy. I was more susp. of LMP and wanted to see what kind of reaction that would illicit. I wasn't expecting all this discussion to follow... actually i thought day would have ended by now... anyway, i figured i might as well put it out here now, since we're having a big discussion.

I've found LMP kinda scummy since the start of the game... i haven't read the UT/LMP argument, but LMP was pretty much on him most of the game... looks like a possible buss to me. But today is where any doubt i had has been removed, with this last few pages of discussion.

He realizes it will be me, him, and TDC in lylo... so he does ISO's on everybody. But... he ends up not even ISO'ing TDC because 'everything is town' from him. Ok... i might could buy that... but the fact that he didn't include Dr. P i found odd. I brought it up, and he still dismissed it. I dont believe that anyone that was REALLY trying to decide against two people would forgo such an important part of that role.

Now, with the line of questions against me, i see a lot of scummy tactics, that i have highlighted with the past few posts. The biggest is his contradiction of acknowledging that i made a post that implied UT was scummy, and later said that i had "argued pretty hard against any susp. of UT". Which is a lie as well, as i haven't said anything in defense of UT all game.

His conclusion that TDC and I aren't partners because of my day 1 insistence of hanging TDC without more claims, seemed very odd. Why would someone discount the possibility of bussing that easily? His conclusion was much more confident than i believe the evidence shows.

I'm sure there is more stuff, but that's off the top of my head, and is enough to satisfy myself as to who i should vote for.

So that's that...

[PranaDevil]

Untrod Tripod has been prodded

Vote Count:

Untrod Tripod (1) - Tazaro

Not Voting:

LynchMePls, Untrod Tripod, podium123456, TDC

With 5 Alive it takes 3 to lynch!

Deadline: 9am GMT on Tuesday 12th October.

[Untrod Tripod]

Ok...what exactly do you want me to respond to? Look at this from my perspective:

Why exactly is my hammer scummy? From my perspective, I was gonna die either today or tomorrow. It was a given. LMP has a hard-on for me being scum, Incog grabbed onto that case and wouldn't hear it any other way, and Taz's votes are so all over the place, I think you could count on him to vote for anyone. I was basically at L-1. Would the pro-town thing be to just accept the lynch? Really? I had a decent chance of hitting scum by hammering Zodiark, he was by no means confirmed. Yeah, it was a gambit, and yeah that gambit failed.

Here's the thing though: we do not know the alignment of any player who's still alive for certain. There's a 40% chance, from an outsider's perspective, of any one of us being scum. Yeah, I took a gambit on Taz being scum, but I was pretty sure I was gonna get lynched and there wasn't much I could do about it. I get lynched it was game over anyway, so I figure I may as well try SOMETHING. Also, yeah, I've been keeping pretty quiet, because I have opinions about who should get lynched, but honestly I think that if I state them, everyone else will pretty much run the opposite way with them. LMP and TDC pretty much said at the beginning of the day "HEY GUIZE WE'RE GONNA LYNCH UT!" and Taz and podium have followed suit. I've been pretty sure that my arguing would just get me lynched before you all could talk it over, so I've kept my mouth shut. The vote may have seemed like a crazy gambit, but from my perspective, the best thing I can do is provide more information. The best thing I can do for my case is try to provide some kind of proof that Taz is scum, and I tried to do that with my vote. Besides, if I make any good arguments, they'll be completely discounted as "obvscum arguments" no matter what I say, so why hurt my cause?

I guess the big things to respond to are thus:

LMP's ISOs - Yeah, I don't disagree with you on everything. I don't agree with you on everything either. I think a LOT of your analysis starts on the faulty basis of me being scum, but I really don't think it's worth it to go through and do a PBPA of all of your stuff. Did you want me to respond to all of your cases? I'm good, thanks.

podium has been happy to chug sweatily along behind the bandwagon for the latter half of the game. He did it with Zodiark, he's been doing it with me today and I imagine that if, god willing, we start discussing lynching someone other than me, he'll wait for someone else to point out LMP before actually jumping on that. Your case against me is really weak (it seems to mainly be UT is scum because he's scum and other people have said so) and hints pretty strongly at trying to bandwagon to sweet, scummy victory.

Taz's play is...inexplicable. I find it weird that you assume he's confirmed town because he claimed a PR. He's claimed an information role but provided no actual information. Plus the "information" he provided is completely inexplicable. Why push so hard for the Zodiark lynch if he knew for a fact that Zodiark didn't perpetrate a night action? I really don't think "yeah, well Taz is an IDIOT" is the correct analysis here. Why was he "concerned" about Incognito last night? That doesn't make any sense. As far as I could tell, everyone in the game was "convinced" that I was scum, so why would Incog bear watching? He was attacking me in a way that went beyond bussing, so that doesn't make any sense to me that tracker-Taz would have taken. There is

absolutely no reason

to believe his claim.
On another note, if we're going to go with the meta thing, I find it likely that someone of his playstyle would claim a PR as a scum. This is why I think he's scum and that's why I thought it would be safe to drop a vote on him.

[podium123456]

podium has been happy to chug sweatily along behind the bandwagon for the latter half of the game. He did it with Zodiark, he's been doing it with me today and I imagine that if, god willing, we start discussing lynching someone other than me, he'll wait for someone else to point out LMP before actually jumping on that.

Trying to help out your partners case before you go, eh?

As i stated previously, i made the first criticism of zodiarks vote. Even if i hadn't... big whoopin deal... he hammered someone without getting a claim first, he's obviously gonna be at the top of everyones scumlist.

...the same with you.

And, actually, i think i'm the first person to make a case against LMP today... so you can't say i'm waiting for a bandwagon on him.

Your case against me is really weak (it seems to mainly be UT is scum because he's scum and other people have said so) and hints pretty strongly at trying to bandwagon to sweet, scummy victory.

No, i have explained it pretty thoroughly at this point. Process of elimination by taking into account the votes placed today, and taz's claim.

It's actually quite strong.

[Untrod Tripod]

As i stated previously, i made the first criticism of zodiarks vote. Even if i hadn't... big whoopin deal... he hammered someone without getting a claim first, he's obviously gonna be at the top of everyones scumlist.

a bandwagon is made of votes. It's one thing to say someone's scum, it's entirely another to put a vote on them. You weren't the first person to vote on the zodiark wagon.

No, i have explained it pretty thoroughly at this point. Process of elimination by taking into account the votes placed today, and taz's claim.

It's actually quite strong.

I don't know how many different ways I can say this: Taz's role is not confirmed! Unless you have a hidden info role you cannot be sure his claim is true! The vote thing makes it just as likely that Taz is scum as it does me! Your case is weaksauce if it is based on that!

[podium123456]

As i stated previously, i made the first criticism of zodiarks vote. Even if i hadn't... big whoopin deal... he hammered someone without getting a claim first, he's obviously gonna be at the top of everyones scumlist.

a bandwagon is made of votes. It's one thing to say someone's scum, it's entirely another to put a vote on them. You weren't the first person to vote on the zodiark wagon.

Yep that's true, my vote came later. Just showing that my opinion of him was given before the rest joined in.

Hey... wait a minute... could i place a vote on you right now and then accuse TDC and LMP of bandwagoning when they vote later? Or is it just me you hold to that standard?

No, i have explained it pretty thoroughly at this point. Process of elimination by taking into account the votes placed today, and taz's claim.

It's actually quite strong.

The vote thing makes it just as likely that Taz is scum as it does me! Your case is weaksauce if it is based on that!

Well, it is. Guess we will find out how good of a theory it is when the rope goes taught, eh?

[TDC]

Ok...what exactly do you want me to respond to? Look at this from my perspective:

Why exactly is my hammer scummy? From my perspective, I was gonna die either today or tomorrow. It was a given. LMP has a hard-on for me being scum, Incog grabbed onto that case and wouldn't hear it any other way, and Taz's votes are so all over the place, I think you could count on him to vote for anyone. I was basically at L-1. Would the pro-town thing be to just accept the lynch? Really? I had a decent chance of hitting scum by hammering Zodiark, he was by no means confirmed. Yeah, it was a gambit, and yeah that gambit failed.

The problem with your hammer is not that you placed it, but how. Too early and in response to Incog prodding you to do "something". You were a topic of discussion at the time, but not really a competing wagon.

Yeah, I took a gambit on Taz being scum, but I was pretty sure I was gonna get lynched and there wasn't much I could do about it. I get lynched it was game over anyway, so I figure I may as well try SOMETHING.

Again there is no reason why you would have to place that vote right there and then. Nobody was voting you.

The urgency you use to justify your gambits did not exist.

[TDC]

Thought this was in the same editor window.. oh well.

I guess i'll go ahead and reveal now that earlier when i dropped that little note that i was leaning UT/TDC, it was a ploy. I was more susp. of LMP and wanted to see what kind of reaction that would illicit. I wasn't expecting all this discussion to follow... actually i thought day would have ended by now... anyway, i figured i might as well put it out here now, since we're having a big discussion.

I have a hard time buying this considering you've basically had a "still think Dr P was soo scummy"-post every other page. Since when has that not been your real opinion?

He realizes it will be me, him, and TDC in lylo

Or you realize the exact same thing and that he won't lynch me.

[podium123456]

I have a hard time buying this considering you've basically had a "still think Dr P was soo scummy"-post every other page. Since when has that not been your real opinion?

Never. But you've played pretty solidly since you replaced in. I've found LMP scummy all game, and i've made note of it throughout. His behavior today sealed the deal.

What's your opinion on the points i raised about his recent discussions with me?

[TDC]

Can you refresh me on what you noted on him prior to today?

As for you being behind the curve a lot. I agree with that.
Yes you did ask Zod what happened to his earlier read before night fell, but when the new day startet you just seemed to have forgotten about it and when you finally remember it's just "he seems to be the big target today". I'd hardly call that conviction. Then you put him on L-1 (for pressure, basically), talk some more about Dr P, throw in the Taz meta and that's that day. It's not much different with UT whom you've apparently picked because he's "low hanging fruit" (and later because you think Taz is town).
That is totally different to LMP repeatedly stating suspicion of UT but only voting him when there's actually wagon support.

[Tazaro]

Since the idea of UT and I BOTH being scum who are bussing each other with votes in LyLo is far-fetched because that bussing guarantees that one of us would be lynched, then I can look forward to dying since I will be a obvtown in people's eyes if we lynch UT, which will result in his flipping scum and I will be the opposite alignment obviously because we're not both scum.

[Tazaro]

Since the idea of UT and I BOTH being scum who are bussing each other with votes in LyLo is far-fetched because that bussing guarantees that one of us would be lynched, then I can look forward to dying since I will be a obvtown in people's eyes if we lynch UT, which will result in his flipping scum and I will be the opposite alignment obviously because we're not both scum.

I look forward to dying because I'm not up to staying around and making decisions in a day 4 LyLo situation.

[podium123456]

Can you refresh me on what you noted on him prior to today?

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I will say that i really found lynchmepls and nexus's votes to be scummier than Dr. Pepper's actions at the time i voted him. However, i was much more interested in seeing how dr. pepper would react to some pressure/accusations, than i was in voting for either LMP or Nexus.

LMP and nexus, your votes on blaze looked

really

bad... definitely possible that it was scum trying to take advantage of the situation. that's not to say that it was... but it definitely looks like it could be a possibility.

^^ note that this was another ploy similar to what i did today.

LMP - If one of the votes on blaze was a scum vote, my gut says this is the one. but, it could mean nothing.

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

[LimMePls]

Ok...what exactly do you want me to respond to? Look at this from my perspective:

Why exactly is my hammer scummy? From my perspective, I was gonna die either today or tomorrow. It was a given. LMP has a hard-on for me being scum, Incog grabbed onto that case and wouldn't hear it any other way, and Taz's votes are so all over the place, I think you could count on him to vote for anyone. I was basically at L-1. Would the pro-town thing be to just accept the lynch? Really? I had a decent chance of hitting scum by hammering Zodiark, he was by no means confirmed. Yeah, it was a gambit, and yeah that gambit failed.

The problem with your hammer is not that you placed it, but how. Too early and in response to Incog prodding you to do "something". You were a topic of discussion at the time, but not really a competing wagon.

Yeah, I took a gambit on Taz being scum, but I was pretty sure I was gonna get lynched and there wasn't much I could do about it. I get lynched it was game over anyway, so I figure I may as well try SOMETHING.

Again there is no reason why you would have to place that vote right there and then. Nobody was voting you.

The urgency you use to justify your gambits did not exist.

I was going to reply to 382 but basically everything that I would have said is summarized right here. I think 382 is podium suddenly realizing that he needs to actually have a lynch target for tomorrow. Now he decides to say I've been scummy to him all game. He can even support it by pointing back to some of his statements about me. That is why I call his behavior scummy. He's been doing that to practically everyone all game, so that when the time comes to lynch them he hasn't painted himself into a corner. That is the scummy nature of the "I don't have a town read on anyone" statement. If he'd decided to pick TDC instead of me for his target, he could just as easily say "I've been sure he is scum all game, just look back at what I've said".

I'm ready to lynch.

Vote: Untrod Tripod

[LimMePls]

Can you refresh me on what you noted on him prior to today?

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I will say that i really found lynchmepls and nexus's votes to be scummier than Dr. Pepper's actions at the time i voted him. However, i was much more interested in seeing how dr. pepper would react to some pressure/accusations, than i was in voting for either LMP or Nexus.

LMP and nexus, your votes on blaze looked

really

bad... definitely possible that it was scum trying to take advantage of the situation. that's not to say that it was... but it definitely looks like it could be a possibility.

^^ note that this was another ploy similar to what i did today.

LMP - If one of the votes on blaze was a scum vote, my gut says this is the one. but, it could mean nothing.

LMP... been getting a slightly scummy scum vibe here... mostly gut. dont like how he says he thought UT was scum, but didn't pursue/vote him today until incognito started making a case.

All things said with no conviction and leaving you wiggle room to vote me or not at the best opportunity.

[Tazaro]

We need only one vote to get a UT lynch. After that vote comes, I'm pretty much a dead duck.

[Tazaro]

We need only one vote to get a UT lynch. After that vote comes, I'm pretty much a dead duck.

Free duck meat for everyone. MMM Hmm.

[podium123456]

As for you being behind the curve a lot. I agree with that.

I dont quite get why people keep throwing in descriptions like 'a lot' and 'all game'. We've had 2 days (3 if u count today i guess) of activity... on one of those days i led the charge, on the other i voted after others had (like LMP did). Why does the second day count more than the first, and why isn't LMP following the crowd as well? I wouldn't say that she is, but i'm using the same standards that people are putting on me.

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Yes you did ask Zod what happened to his earlier read before night fell, but when the new day startet you just seemed to have forgotten about it and when you finally remember it's just "he seems to be the big target today".

I didn't forget about it, i wanted him to respond to my question before i voted... is that scummy? I pointed that out several times during D2.

I'd hardly call that conviction. Then you put him on L-1 (for pressure, basically), talk some more about Dr P, throw in the Taz meta and that's that day.

You should take a re-read of my ISO, because you are being a little disengenious with your description. Particularly by saying that there was no conviction, and that it was only a pressure vote.

By observing my D1 arguments about claiming, you should know that i take putting someone at L-1 very seriously. Furthermore, after i said "if he responds i can reconsider"... he did respond and we discussed the issue. Not only did i not reconsider, but i left my vote in place and recommended that he be lynched for his behavior.

Still think zordiak's behavior was scummy, and lynch worthy, at the moment.

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It's not much different with UT whom you've apparently picked because he's "low hanging fruit" (and later because you think Taz is town).

I don't see how this is a criticism. UT was my top scumpick when i said that because of his scummy vote... how is that not valid?

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That is totally different to LMP repeatedly stating suspicion of UT but only voting him when there's actually wagon support.

Again, i'm not sure what you are criticizing here.