Open 253: Sea Container C9++ [GAME OVER]

[Sleepless Assassin]

vote jmj300

I recently read a harry potter themed game where jmj3000 was scum and furcolow named the entire scum team.

fos nexus

for fishing.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Hey SA, you seem to forget that I replaced out practically at the beginning of the game. Nice try, but try harder.

Doesn't mean you didn't see anything that happened at all in that game.

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So you watched the game knowing the scumteam. If you saw furcolow name the scum team, you'd probably view him as a good player and a good NK in this game.

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Mafuyu, did I miss a stronger case somewhere?

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The fact that you replaced out means nothing.

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Jmj, if I was metaing your play, you would have a point. Let me lay this out.

A) you were scum in harry potter mafia
B) because you were scum, you knew the scum team
C) in that game furcolow connected your two scumbuddies who were being treated as confirmed town
D) even if you replaced out, you admittedly "watched" the game
E) knowing the scumteam, furcolow being the only one to catch scum must make his scumdar look good to you
F) furcolow died night 0 in this game
G) it makes sense that you would kill furcolow
F) I have an actual reason to suspect you, so no reason to random vote anyone

[Sleepless Assassin]

If I was scum, I would have left Furc alive solely because of HP Mafia, because he had problems convincing the town to lynch his reads.

This is true, but his reads were still accurate. And part of the reason he couldn't convince anyone is that the scum were being treated as confirmed town.

Now now, 'would have' arguments lead to very dark places with bad mistakes.

Not really. How would we catch scum if we were clueless about what they "would" do?

Its no worse than SA saying me watching a game when I knew the scum team makes me scum.

Misrep!

You're scum because a player who had very accurate reads against your scum team in another game is now dead. Not because you "knew the scum team" in another game. That could be said for most, if not all, of the players in this game.

its wifom, and meta fails anyway

*Sigh*

[Sleepless Assassin]

SA, I don't see any validity in your argument... actually, it looks really WIFOMish. I'm not sure I like how quickly the last two players jumped on you though so I won't vote yet.

I know it's WIFOM. That's the whole point. I'm not sure why site meta is "WIFOM is this big scary thing and we need to stay away from it". It's not. If I'm right, I'll use this game to show why.

To all:
Massclaim, Yes or No and why?

No. There is literally zero benefit for town.

excuse me, first time playing c9+++
can someone explain what the first page of letters is about?

There's a bunch of roles and a set way to decide which ones, and how many of each, are in the game.

Delving too deeply in to "X player as scum would have went after Y" just leads to "Well, they might have", and that's pretty much it. Worst case scenario is a premature outing of roles (yay case evidence).

It's not "might or might not". It's about determining whether or not we think they did. Currently, I think it makes sense and his response has reinforced my thoughts.

[Sleepless Assassin]

How many C9++ games have there been thus far? Mafuyu's kinda curious now.

Who was this to?

Kat, you of all people know that quicklynches are horrible...

Why is this relevant?

Yes, player A knowing player B might thus kill them for X reason. They might also kill players C-D for Y reason. X reason has a slightly better result for A-scum's play. However, C-D might also have killed B for Z reason or Y reason, which means that at the very best you wind up with a slightly weighted bias towards B. The fact that you are pushing it to the degree you do is obvious (you want to gauge reactions to see if X>>Y in methodology, thus if A is scum then A MUST have killed B), but it still neglects C-D players.

You lost me with all the letters and stuff.

your entry reasoning for his play is horrible and easily negated by the simple observation that players will tend to tweak their play the more games they play. You're not going to make a disputable comment about his previous games and expect it to fly now, that's just poor form.

Why are you still acting like I am metaing Jmj's play?

Bonus: Also keep in mind that you're making a scum/sk setup play right now. Also keep in mind that it has actually worked in the past.

I don't get what you are trying to say here.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Mothrax is so town by the way.

And Maf is talking about SKs a lot. Why?

[Sleepless Assassin]

relevant because [redacted] and the way kat and maf keep piling votes with a few others, a quicklynch is what is going to end up happening.

No one is more than halfway to a lynch yet. We're fine.

@SA: It was a general question, therefore anyone that had any idea could have answered it. To the second, Mafuyu DID sum up that entire letter argument right underneath. To the third, because you were doing it for an odd amount of time and it was Mafuyu's belief that you still retained that intent. Lastly, Mafuyu's last C9++ had "X died as Doctor. There was 1 death. Y is not dead, and Mafuyu would have gone after Y. Therefore, Mafuyu is scum" as a method of attack (by the SK). It worked.

I've never played this setup.

Oh, so the letter thing pretty much meant that other thing that I responded to by saying "Why are you still acting like I am metaing Jmj's play?". I was never metaing his play specifically. I was showing that he would have good reason as scum to kill a player who is now dead. Jmj is responsible for the murder of the innocent furcolow.

To the SK thing, it worked how? It caught scum? What difference does it make if they SK caught scum or if town did? They were right either way. And town could use it the same way the SK did.

Along these lines, SA- Why is Moth town?

His posts read as genuine to me. On a related note, one of {Alduskkel, Katsuki, mongoose} is scum. Maybe two of them.

I don't really think Mothrax thought massclaim through, at all. Scum would just claim vanilla and sit back and watch any/all Town PRs expose themselves. Then, systematic NKing. Mothrax, did you even stop to think about it?

This sounds like you are talking to someone who you think made a poor play as town rather than someone who you think is scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'm not calling their votes stupid, I'm saying they are voting me fore stupidity, not scumminess. I did think it through, but I miss things sometimes which is why I wanted other oppinions on the matter.

Can you lay out your thought process for us? What led you to believe massclaim might be a positive thing for us?

Do you still believe this, or was this an explanation of your initial vote? If you believe this, is there anything that has happened in game so far which makes you see Jmj as scum?

Yes, I still believe that. I also don't like his initial defense that he replaced out of the game when he admits he followed it, making the fact that he replaced out entirely null. And the "Nice try, but try harder" in his first post seems like an attempt to discredit me completely hoping I'll drop the issue and if I don't, then no one will listen anyway. Then he twists my case completely to make it out like I'm metaing his play in the other game and attempts to make the replacement defense relevant again (Protip: It's not.). Then he actually listens and says he would have kept furcolow alive because of furc's play in that game (Protip: Furc named the "confirmed town" scum team at one point). Then he's back to twisting my case into "he's scum because he knew the scum team in another game". His ISO 7 just speaks for itself. He's very defensive there.

Oh, and in 9 posts, what has he done to contribute to the game? Defend himself? Sure. Call out Mongoose active lurking? Ok. What else? Who has he voted? No one. Who does he think is scum. I dunno.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Oh, Ald responded. Oops.

I don't really think Mothrax thought massclaim through, at all. Scum would just claim vanilla and sit back and watch any/all Town PRs expose themselves. Then, systematic NKing. Mothrax, did you even stop to think about it?

This sounds like you are talking to someone who you think made a poor play as town rather than someone who you think is scum.

Not really. I point out why Mothrax is wrong, and then I imply that any Town player would see this obvious flaw. Therefore, that means mothrax isn't town.

So getting a scum role affects a player's ability to spot flaws in setup discussion? Note taken.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok SA, here goes. You start off accusing me of killing furc because of harry potter mafia. You say I did it because he named the scum team day 1. Once I replaced out I had no stake in that game. He got lucky in that game when he named the scum team. He also got unlucky when town believed reaper based on flavor alone. Even as confirmed town, he couldn't convince town. I didn't even know he had named the scum team since he did it day one when I wasn't around. Honestly, I think you killed furc just to set up this "case" on me. You also keep saying you aren't metaing my play. Referring to any past game of mine is using meta. As for my posts this game, I have had no choice but be on the defensive because you keep attacking me.

Day 1? It was definitely later than that. Which nullifies the original point I raised against you. The rest still stands though. Yes, you can defend yourself. No, that doesn't mean you can't play the game. Responding to my posts isn't some magician act that makes the other posts disappear. You can still see them and you can still scumhunt based on them. So far, you don't seem to have any interest in doing so.

To be more specific: jmj has no reason to continue arguing AGAINST SA's attack, as it has been deemed more or less vague and/or weak by enough active players. The fact that he continues the argument suggests either: A. Tunneling between two players or B. Scum gambit.

It would be incredibly anti-town if he ignored my case regardless of what anyone else thinks. And I'm not tunneling. I think we will find the scum somewhere in {jmj, Ald, Mongoose, andrew, nexus}. I'm just looking at jmj the most because he is my top suspect at the moment and currently my top choice for a lynch although that could change.

I would think a scum player would be less likely to see the pro-town side of things, yes.

Very interesting. Not sure how you can think this, but ok I guess.

@Katsuki elaborate on post #75 plz. Posts like this make me think you're scummy, because they contribute nothing but meaningless chat.

Why would you want someone to elaborate on "meaningless chat"?

my thoughts : i think we should stop going on about the 'meta harry potter game' and instead focus on the REACTIONS of the people relating to that (e.g. over defensive, over aggressive etc.)

Care to give us your take?

And isn't jmj using the fact that he is defending himself as an excuse not to scumhunt a scummy reaction?

then even thought morthax saying massclaim is bad, maybe hes just new like me. we should now look at the reactions of people (especially those people pretending to be cheerful in explaining the pros on cons, those ppl are likely scum) after it.

Judging my join dates, he's newer than you are.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Last line should say "judging by join dates" not "my".

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote, Vote Andrew

Let's start a wagon and bring it to a lynch as fast as possible

No lynching is bad. Don't let it happen. Why Andrew? He's posted nothing but one-liners and looks like scum hiding in the background. And there's this gem:

err nexus, you have contributed next to nothing except for 'im v/la'

hypocracy much?

Anyone not voting Andrew in their next post has to explain either why no lynch is acceptable or why Andrew is town

[Sleepless Assassin]

On that note, SA, you mentioned that you don't think WIFOM is a bad thing. Your reasoning must have gone over my head. Could you please explain how WIFOM can be pro-town in any way?

This is a theory question and I don't want to spend too much time on it.

Basically, what is WIFOM? It's the "what ifs" and trying to determine

what

is being done and

why

.

Why would scum...

. Well, how do we catch scum if we don't determine what they

would

do?

Would

scum bandwagon, lurk, OMGUS, etc? It doesn't have to be those specifically, but anything considered to be scum-motivated is caught because we believe scum

would

do it. And questioning whether a player

would

do something as scum is complete WIFOM.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I find it convenient how one of the options isn't "why someone else is scum", hmm?

Um because the deadline is coming up and we don't have time to argue in circles. We need to come to a consensus, so because no one else has done it, I stepped up and said "here is who we are lynching."

THIS ONE IS TOO EASY. SA IS SCUM GUYS, TRYING TO USE DEADLINE LYNCH TO HIS ADVANTAGE.

I'm trying to lynch scum. Don't get in my way of that.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Also, Kat, why is Andrew town?

[Sleepless Assassin]

the deadline is coming up and we don't have time to argue in circles.

I'm an active player who will be here to help lynch. Let's wagon someone who isn't.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I might claim pretty early because of the deadline. I'll say for now that I'm a power role. Scum probably won't kill me just because I'm a lynch option.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote, Vote Kat

Just because he has more votes than Andrew

[Sleepless Assassin]

Claim Roleblocker

And if I was a scum roleblocker, I'd be smarter than to claim town roleblocker. I'd claim something more convincing and fun.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Unvote, Vote Kat

Just because he has more votes than Andrew

THIS IS NOT HOW A PR WOULD PLAY.

ANY PRS OUT THERE, DO NOT OUT YOURSELVES TO SA. HE IS FISHING FOR PRS BEFORE HE DIES.

What? This makes no sense. Nobody should counterclaim in this setup ever because there can be multiples of the same power role. And I play a power role the same way as I play a vanilla role during the day.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Oh, results. I didn't block anyone Night 0 because we had nothing to go by and I'd have a higher chance of blocking a power role than blocking scum.

[Sleepless Assassin]

i am town because i know who i am. i am not voting myself.
arude2boy has said nothing as well.
why not aim him huh?
nexus too why not huh?

They aren't as scummy.

Oh my god quit squirming.
First, WIFOM is not asking "what if." It's circular reasoning and questions that can't be proven one way or the other. The kind that gets nobody nowhere and only chews up time.
Second, it's not your job to instruct the town who to lynch, regardless of how close the deadline is. It's up to the players to make their own decisions, and trying to get in the way of that is anti-town, if not flat-out scummy.
Third, derp I can't get suspicion off of me so I'll try to get suspicion onto an easy-target lurker.
Fourth, derp don't lynch me cuz I'm a power role.
Fifth, #139 is closer to WIFOM than how you defined it. "I can't be scum because if I was scum I wouldn't have claimed roleblocker." Well we only know that based on your words.
Sixth, just because nobody should out themselves doesn't mean that you're not hoping that someone would be reckless enough to.
And lastly, two double posts followed by a triple post seems to me like you're grasping at straws to get away from the spotlight.

We're at L-2 right? I want to make sure I have my count right before I vote.

Ok, we disagree on what WIFOM is.

We need to lynch. I'm doing my part to help. We don't have time for much.

An easy lynch is better than no lynch.

Claiming is standard near a lynch. Not a scum tell.

If I was a scum roleblocker, it would make no sense at all to just claim roleblocker because it leaves that open. It's like the worst possible fakeclaim and I'm smarter than that.

If I wanted someone to out themself, I wouldn't point out that they shouldn't.

Don't double/triple posts add to spotlight, not take away from it?

o man, this is one of those posts that look town but is in fact scummy, i have no idea how to describe this

Huh?

[Sleepless Assassin]

No. Saying more isn't a town tell.

[Sleepless Assassin]

saying less isnt a scum tel

See this:

saying nothing and trying to make it look like you're saying something is a scum tell.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok, well I agree with you then.

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SA DID NOT VOTE OR TALK LIKE A PR WOULD OR SHOULD. IT IS PRETTY BLATENTLY OBVIOUS THAT HE IS SCUM.

Why would a power role play any differently than a vanilla would?

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These things have to happen near a deadline. I can't claim with like an hour before deadline and have people decide within an hour whether they want to lynch someone else or hammer anyway.

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I personally find Katsuki to be scummier, because SHE JUST TALKS LIKE THIS AND SO PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION TO HER BUT SHE'S NOT REALLY SAID ANY REASONS FOR ANYTHING.

Sounds more like policy to me.

If Kat is scum, so is Ald, and Nexus is town.

Explanation: Ald is explaining Nexus's vote as policy which it clearly isn't. Ald is trying to make a town player's (Nexus) vote look weak to defend a scumbuddy (Kat).

More Kat votes please.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I was right about Andrew.

That's about it though.