1)
I posted an incomplete set of notes in 573, not a full case. I said that; I posted a summary of my notes because I wasn't done with my full case. I haven't been sitting idly this week. I've been trying to sort it all out and process what people are saying. In case it wasn't clear, I didn't say I found no one scummy. I am working through my thoughts on everyone, and it should have been clear by the questions I asked and the fact that I said I had a townie feel for pretty much everyone but two people that I was making a list of my scum---->town reads
I'm not fence-sitting. In post 573, I clearly say I think CK, MoI, Dram, BC, and Adem are town; however, I felt like I needed to justify why I don't think CK, Dram, BC, and Adem are scum when they are taking a lot of heat and so I walked through my thought process as to why I think they are town. I thought about what people have said about them, weighed that evidence against my own readings, and decided I disagree with the arguments against them, and I won't be voting for them. If that wasn't clear, it should have been.
It also should have been clear that of the nine of us remaining that I find AGar a bit scummy and Dekes quite scummy, as evidenced by the fact that I asked them questions and didn't say I think they are town when I
did
say I think everyone else was town. Maybe I should have spelled it out for everyone, but I didn't as I thought it was obvious enough.
2)
I don't think we should decide to lynch Vezok unless we're clear on Dekes/Claire. I'm not opposed to lynching Vezo as taking him to LYLO would be bad, but Dekes is currently my primary suspect because he a) parrots other people's cases, and b) is contradictory in his postings (see post 573 for more details on "a" and "b"), and c) his interactions with Jason--or Jason's interactions with him--are either non-existent or protective. You (MoI) pointed out Jason's ISO lacked references to Dekes, and I'm pointing out that the reverse is also true. (He mentions Jason once, in ISO 12. There's an...interesting...tenor...to that exchange. Almost a "wink wink, nudge, nudge" tone, even.)
I think Dekes got really, really lucky early in the game because Vezo's actions allowed him to be righteously indignant from the beginning. He claimed Claire, but never role-claimed (and I'm not asking him to), and several of us, including FaraSera and me, had difficulty with the idea that Claire could be scum. This week I've been reading the entire game again, with different angles, and one of those has included exploring Jason's interactions with others, including Dekes.
Jason's reaction to FaraSera's proposal to let Vezo win his cause as well as his reaction to Vezo's threat to be unpleasant is interesting, as it sounds very townie; but if he is Dekes' scumbuddy, then it could also be fear that one of his partners would be lynched. As several people had pointed out at that point in the game, it would have been in the scum's best interest to allow the mislynch to go through. However, Jason, the one known scum, is vehemently protesting it. Is this to look uber-townie, or is it to protect his partner?
Finally, his deflection away from Vezok and onto me in post 196 with the comment that we should be hunting "real scum" (which he never intended to do) is telling; he wants out of that debate, and fast. On the next page, when Dram offers to help Vezo win if he helps catch scum, Jason freaks again. (By the way, MoI and HH addressed some of these quotations in ISOs of Jason but didn't address the idea that he was potentially protecting a partner. MoI used them to address that Jason is posting fluff, and HH used them to address that he was posting fluff and BS'ing about not understanding the lyncher role.)
jasonT1981 wrote:Wait, you would support a lyncher getting his win cause?... in my experience with lynchers and it is limited to my admission... A lyncher is never set out to lynch an anti-town role. That would mean willingly supporting a lynch of a town role??? thats not very pro town.
It is actually something scum might suggest to get rid of a town member? a lyncher is usually an anti town role. I don't like helping a lyncher win the game with a lynch of someone who could be town.
major FOS: Faraseradayaphim
Unless you can show me where a lyncher has set out to lynch an anti-town role in a game, this could well turn into a vote.
jasonT1981 wrote:Faraseradayaphim wrote:If he wants to win I'll help him, if he keeps up this charade he'll end up losing what could be an easy game.
And if he really is a lyncher, lynching a town role you would support that? I don't see a lyncher achieving his win condition by lynching scum... as that is all our win conditions (except those who are scum) I support lynch on scummy people.. not to help a hypo lyncher win.
jasonT1981 wrote:I don't like this... threatening the town to help you with your win condition? Sorry, I don't care much for helping a lyncher win the game, I care about lynching scum and winning the game. Have you any intentions of helping town?
jasonT1981 wrote:Because it is not it towns interests to help 3rd party. It is in towns interest to lynch scum, and helping you win, could mean the lynch of a possible town member. You see the problem? What do you mean by you will do unpleasent things? Is this a threat towards the town? if so, its not helping your case.
jasonT1981 wrote:even if that means a possible mislynch on someone who could be town? Look, your exposed.... you cant furfil your win condition, accept it.
jasonT1981 wrote:Look, I really don't care if I am your bad side or not. I will not help you achieve your win condition without solid proof Dekes is scum. Until that time I will not support a lynch on someone who could be town just so you can win.
Dekes asserts that scum would be more likely to push his lynch through--but it's Jason, and not HH, who tried to stop it, so that theory is derailed right there. (While I've got this quote up here, in this quote, the last part (beginning with "BTW") could be rolefishing; why would a dayname cop be arbitrary or unlikely?)
Dekes wrote:I'm still looking at TL, BC now with HH as backup, because
I maintain the assumption, that rather town would doubt such a claim, especially after the holes of Vezo's story had been pointed out. Scum would be more stubborn with an easy mislynch right in front of them
.
I don't think all three of them are scum who took the bait, but I'm guessing at least one scum is among them. Now I don't like how BC declared HH town just like that. I've read a couple of games and apparently it's been done like that by the pros around here. But imo it leaves too much room for manipulation.
Btw, HH, why would you expect a cc to Vezo's claim? A dayname cop seemed like an arbitrary role made up especially to avoid being cc'd. I was thinking that even before Vezo fessed up.
In his ISO: Dekes holds people accountable for not questioning Vezo's sanity/claim; creates the "triumvirate" list of HH, TL, and BC. Votes BC; makes a case on HH; unvotes BC while V/LA "because I don't want to be part of a lynch if some exonerating info about/from BC comes up while I'm away" (and stain my hands with a mislynch?); votes HH in ISO 9 even though he spends most of ISO 9 discussing Adem and Dram; in ISO 10 says this:
Dekes wrote:I hope, HH's second half results in a vote. His first post is definitely promising. I agree with you here, Jason has to be looked at closer. He's been flying under the radar for a while and his Iso's were too much IioA. <snip stuff about Dram/BC> Ademisk's trying to appease to town too much. His FSDH Iso is rather pointless right now if it results in a townish read. And his suspects are still BC, dram and vezo, three people the majority is definitely not going to lynch. With that limited pool of suspects Ademisk is pretty much distancing himself from any possible lynch today.
Unvote; Vote: Ademisk
Hmmm. Calling for more investigation of Jason, then talking about Dram and BC before voting Adem.
Also, in this post, Dekes seems to imply that he is looking for good wagons, not scum.
Dekes wrote:I'm keeping my vote on Ademisk until he gives me something to believe in his innocence or a better lynch candidate is presented (and wagoned) before deadline
TL;DR:
DEKES parrots arguments; contradicts himself; keeps a running list of potential scum (primarily TL/AGar, HH, BC, Adem, Dram, BC, MoI, me); even his votes are non-committal, as he makes them while talking about how scummy 2-3 other people are at the same time; and looks for wagons upon which to hop rather than actually scumhunting. Also, Jason was vehemently against his lynch, and his interaction with Jason (and vice versa) is virtually non-existent.
Vote: Dekes
p.s. MoI: I've considered the question you asked me about Adem, and while I think it's a good question, and it has been the main thing I've been thinking about this week, I am not persuaded that Adem is scum. Reck gave him information about my identity for a reason, and I just have to trust the first instinct I had upon learning that he knew who I was. I can't vouch for him or confirm him in any other way at this time, but Michael's sole purpose in S1 was to take care of and protect his son, and my instinct says that he is on the same side as Walt in-game as well.
), please hammer
