Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[Andrigan]

Jack, do you think you could post your thoughts on the game so far? It may be helpful for springing new discussion since we have not heard from you yet. I know you said you would wait until page 7, but I'm almost ready to create silly posts just to get to the 7th page to get your reads on people.

[Andrigan]

Speak of the devil...the 7th page!!

[DemonHybrid]

So...Thor, you're voting me just for the sake of lynching me?

Funny, seeing how people think I'm the one clinging onto an RVS argument.

[DemonHybrid]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

[Far_Cry]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

I'm inclined to say that I believe this claim. However, I will hold off a little before unvoting (waiting for more some more talk. And besides, It would look ridiculous to vote you than unvote a few posts later.)

[redtail896]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

I'm inclined to say that I believe this claim. However, I will hold off a little before unvoting (waiting for more some more talk. And besides, It would look ridiculous to vote you than unvote a few posts later.)

First of all, why are you inclined to believe the claim? A Vanilla Townie claim is not a reason in and of itself to unvote. It's simply the most likely thing for a person to be, requires no actual information, and thus is the easiest claim to make. Also, if you believe DH is town, why not just unvote.

Myself, I don't believe DH is scum. Hence the not voting.

Jack: C'mon man. Your turn here.

[Far_Cry]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

I'm inclined to say that I believe this claim. However, I will hold off a little before unvoting (waiting for more some more talk. And besides, It would look ridiculous to vote you than unvote a few posts later.)

First of all, why are you inclined to believe the claim? A Vanilla Townie claim is not a reason in and of itself to unvote. It's simply the most likely thing for a person to be, requires no actual information, and thus is the easiest claim to make. Also, if you believe DH is town, why not just unvote.

I'm not stupid. I know that VT is the easiest claim to make by scum. My vote was a half-hearted one anyways. It was meant to stir up conversation. Therefore, I'm not going to unvote yet (I don't think he's at too much danger at L-2.)

[Chevre]

Sorry for the delay everyone. I found myself extremely sick today, but I'm good now.

Vote Count 5

(4) DemonHybrid (Devon, jimfinn, Thor665, Far_Cry)
(1) redtail896 (DemonHybrid)
(1) Jack (Nexus)

(5) Not Voting (Jack, nhammen, redtail896, singersigner, Andrigan)

With

11

players alive, it takes

6

votes to lynch!
The deadline is

October 8th

[Thor665]

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

The way this town is going I'd actually have just expected you to sit at L-2 for about a week while people debated if my references to my beard are scum or town motivated.
It's a town tell, in case anyone was wondering.

Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch.

Why should we keep an eye on Devon? Other then your joke RVS there seems to be no basis or origin to this thought.
Why do you not mention jimfinn, since you're commenting on everyone else on your wagon? If the 1st and 3rd votes are scummy, why not the 2nd?

I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

Why is my vote 'devil may care' and Far_Cry's vote is 'understandable'?

[Nexus]

Devon, Jack and jimfinn have all just "Checked in" without really helping the game.

Any thoughts on this, everyone else?

I know it's only page 7, but that kind of action later in the game would be seen as active lurking, so why is it acceptable within the first few days? I know you can argue that you can't come up with a scum read that easily, but by only "checking in," surely they are making it even more difficult to come up with opinions...

[Nexus]

EBWOP I understand that Devon is having problems, so is excused slightly in my eyes.

[jimfinn]

I'm going to theory discuss here based on some of my previous games and on a thread in MD, in light of the recent VT claim. I believe (obviously) that town should be trying to lynch scum first and foremost. However, if a person claims VT on D1 it is generally in the town's best interest to lynch him. The reason for this is that the scum's primary goal is to kill the PRs. If there are 12 players in the game in the form of 3Scum, 3PRs, and 6VTs, and the town lynches a claimed VT, the scum have a 3 in 8 chance of hitting a PR. If the town lynches another person who also flips VT, the scum will not target the first claimed VT and therefore have a 3 in 7 chance of killing a PR.

That said, I think that there is still plenty of time left in this day and we should not lynch DH right now, but if discussion stalls and we feel unable to catch scum with deadline approaching, we should seriously consider returning to his lynch as the lynch to avoid a no-lynch.

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

[nhammen]

nhammen: I was too focussed on Thor because he was the one that caught my attention first. I don't know why I didn't address Demon either.

Sorry, I missed the question first time around.

This seems honest to me.

Ok, reasonable ideas about Thor, and I'd see how his actions could be interpreted as town or scummy. But tell me, why do you find my play "newbie?"

You didn't want people to take things too seriously in RVS, and you wanted to refrain from commenting until there was enough information available. At the same time, you were not adding new information to the game until pressed to do so. This is how I played as a newbie, and I have seen many newbs play the same way.

BTW I a seeing a lot of this hypocrite argument over and over again, and I'm not liking the way it has been brought up to the exclusion of almost everything else so far. Not that theres much else to talk about... But still, something about this is bothering me.

Thor, stop being dumb. I see no reason why there needs to be a wagon before everyone's contributed, unless there's been an absolute, 100% scumslip, which Far_Cry has not done IMO. And don't recruit me like a little weasel. You're starting to remind me of a player I reeeaaally don't like.

You do realize that you are doing the exact same thing Far_Cry did?

Well, I didn't specify the traps I was referring to. But I will mention some that have already sprung since there is nothing to spoil anymore, namely the one in which he tried to get an early wagon going during RVS. I don't really see it as a problem to mention them if the traps are already out in the open for people to see (and Thor already admitted himself that he was searching for newb scum).

In response to your next question, I am looking for traps because the way I find scum is a mixture of town-hunting plus scum-hunting. If I can identify town like behavior, then I will be less suspicious overall of that person, unless shown otherwise. This narrows down my choices to select for scum (again assuming nothing else changes).

Thank you for answering my questions. Town hunting is a good strategy. However, I can easily see scum motivation for some of the comments you have made about Thor, and this post is not enough to make up my mind if those comments were honest Town or misleading scum.

No. You're just asking him to set up people for NKs and lynch targets during the day. Anyone who posts lists of "least townie to most townie," or anything likewise, will instantly be on my bad side, for doing the work of scum for them.

This idea has been proven false. Most good players do not believe that this is the case. However I don't want theory discussion to bog down the Town. I'm just going to say, that if I think that a Town list would prove to be useful in this game, I will not hesitate to post one.

I missed it since I only saw the latest post as was responding to it. I would not hold some players to one standard and others to another. That seems a little hypocritical, don't you think? But you do seem to be taking it personally, and/or making it seem like that was intentional. What makes you think that I wasn't responding to the posts together, but only quoted the more demanding one?

Wait what? So you missed seeing the first example of this, but then said that his argument was bad because maybe you did it on purpose, and he had no way of knowing? what the.... Also, I am now noting your making sure everyone knows how you are definitely NOT a hypocrite after all that long discussion about hypocritical behavior being scummy. Its almost like you were worried that people might see it that way, and decided to head it off beforehand.

VOTE: singer

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

Claim: Vanilla Townie

I think Nexus and redtail are the scum here. Keep an eye on Devon and Thor, especially after his devil may care attitude about a lynch. I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

Early claim noted. In this case, I see it as a Town-tell, for various reasons I will not go into. Disagree about Nexus. Your keep an eye on comments are slightly OMGUSsy, but since your prime suspicions are neither one on your wagon, this is ok.

I don't like quickhammers. I'll claim now that I'm at L-2 so that no one thinks they're smart and quickhammering is the way to go.

The way this town is going I'd actually have just expected you to sit at L-2 for about a week while people debated if my references to my beard are scum or town motivated.
It's a town tell, in case anyone was wondering.

Quite true. More reasons to see this as a Town-tell.

I understand Far Cry and his desire to start a wagon here, however. More info is good.

Why is my vote 'devil may care' and Far_Cry's vote is 'understandable'?

Good point.

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

The most convincing argument against Far_Cry is contained right in this quote. Almost has me convinced to vote him rather than singer.

[Far_Cry]

I'm going to theory discuss here based on some of my previous games and on a thread in MD, in light of the recent VT claim. I believe (obviously) that town should be trying to lynch scum first and foremost. However, if a person claims VT on D1 it is generally in the town's best interest to lynch him. The reason for this is that the scum's primary goal is to kill the PRs. If there are 12 players in the game in the form of 3Scum, 3PRs, and 6VTs, and the town lynches a claimed VT, the scum have a 3 in 8 chance of hitting a PR. If the town lynches another person who also flips VT, the scum will not target the first claimed VT and therefore have a 3 in 7 chance of killing a PR.

That said, I think that there is still plenty of time left in this day and we should not lynch DH right now, but if discussion stalls and we feel unable to catch scum with deadline approaching, we should seriously consider returning to his lynch as the lynch to avoid a no-lynch.

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

This is a stupid reason to vote for me. Had I not already told everybody that my vote was placed solely for the reason to promote discussion. I have no need to unvote, because the desired result of my decision has not been produced yet.

I find this game pitiful. No wants to do shit, no one wants to say shit. Instead, we are resorting to voting each other for some ridiculous reasons. I have yet to find one good case against anybody, one that's reasonable and makes sense. Here, we have jimfinn, who mind you, has been actively lurking, going out and calling me scum trying to spring up activity. While it is true that I said it would be ridiculous to vote and then unvote so soon (and it would be), he failed to notice that the reason of my vote was just for the sake of actvity, and then goes around and twists the meanings of my actions.

Now I would like you to tell me who's scummier. UNVOTE: DemonHybrid, VOTE: jimfinn

[Far_Cry]

Oops, messed up there with the quote tags. Just take out the second quote because it's repeated.

[jimfinn]

Wait, so Far_Cryscum is abandoning the DH wagon after I call him out for not unvoting in a continued attempt to look more town, and decides to take revenge by OMGUS voting the person who caused said wagon to fall apart.

[singersigner]

I missed it since I only saw the latest post as was responding to it. I would not hold some players to one standard and others to another. That seems a little hypocritical, don't you think? But you do seem to be taking it personally, and/or making it seem like that was intentional. What makes you think that I wasn't responding to the posts together, but only quoted the more demanding one?

Wait what? So you missed seeing the first example of this, but then said that his argument was bad because maybe you did it on purpose, and he had no way of knowing? what the.... Also, I am now noting your making sure everyone knows how you are definitely NOT a hypocrite after all that long discussion about hypocritical behavior being scummy. Its almost like you were worried that people might see it that way, and decided to head it off beforehand.

VOTE: singer

What? No. I wasn't saying his argument was bad at all. I was just wondering why he didn't think that was a possibility. I didn't like the fact that he thought I was so blatantly trying to make one person "look scummy" (or whatever he thought I was doing) and not someone else. The whole hypocrisy thing... If you're looking for a scum tell in that, you won't find one.

Far_Cry's blatant OMGUS is mesmerizing. Especially in response to the pressure put on him regarding his vote...seems a little too eager. OMGUS voting jimfinn isn't going to pressure someone into giving a scum tell that may or may not be there. I don't like this at all. VOTE: Far_Cry

[Far_Cry]

Wait, so Far_Cryscum is abandoning the DH wagon after I call him out for not unvoting in a continued attempt to look more town, and decides to take revenge by OMGUS voting the person who caused said wagon to fall apart.

It is not an OMGUS vote. I voted for you because your being ridiculous and puposely closing your eyes against the true meanings of my actions.

I am honestly not seeing any substance in the arguments against me. Technically, all I'm seeing is that you guys are voting me for not liking my playstyle. Many of you consistantly ignore things said against you or others, and decide to attack me for the stupidest of reasons. I will most certainly not back down until somebody summarizes my actions, and explains why they are scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

Sorry, I've been mega busy.

I said to keep an eye on Devon because she's given some pretty weak reasons for staying on the bandwagon. RVS is LONG gone and I've never seen someone cling onto it for so long.

Like everyone else, I don't like Far Cry's OMGUS. Bad timing.

I'd say on the scumminess scale, Nexus, Far Cry and redtail are ahead. Devon is behind in 4th.

[DemonHybrid]

Unvote

because at this point I'm not sure of who to vote for out of those 3. I'm going to wait and see.

[Thor665]

I'm not feeling the redtail scum energy.

I consider Far_Cry ages ahead of Nexus - why don't you restate the case on Nexus and then see how you still feel about it. Methinks it's weaker then you're recalling.

[DemonHybrid]

Well, Far Cry did boost ahead there with the OMGUS vote when called out, but I can't shake that weird feeling I got when Nexus backed off after being called out.

My case on him isn't necessarily stuck in RVS. It's barely after, but still important to me nonetheless.

[Thor665]

If you're using 'backed off' as a tell check out how Far_Cry reacted to being called a hypocrite (in short - he admitted to it and begged off).

I say that's the same sort of mindset and reaction, why do you think it's different and/or a better scum tell on Nexus then Far_Cry?

[DemonHybrid]

Not the same reaction. Far_Cry really tried to fight the argument away, whereas Nexus just sort of disappeared for a while, and then came back when he was called out for backing away.

[Far_Cry]

Not the same reaction. Far_Cry really tried to fight the argument away, whereas Nexus just sort of disappeared for a while, and then came back when he was called out for backing away.

So, what are you trying to say? Who's more suspicious: me or Nexus?