Mini 1057: Unsubsidized Mafia (Game Over!)

[DemonHybrid]

So in light of this, I need to re-make my scumlist. I've lost heavy interest in this game in the past few days.

Redtail is still scummy as hell for parroting what I believe to be a ridiculous argument on Far Cry.

Thor is scummy because of sarcastic demeanor and "Let's lynch Demon, because more votes, the better." without any more justification.

Nexus is scummy because of his RVS seriousness. Less so than the others. He's picked up his play.

Devon's spot is still scummy because of lack of reasoning and increased neutrality. I'm waiting to see what her replacement does.

FarCry, Andrigan, nhamman and jimfinn are all fine. Jack needs to post more, but nothing incriminating so far.

singer is still null, but her vote on me is dumb beyond words. I'm almost willing to vote her because of such a lame excuse to vote me, but her other play has been okay.

[DemonHybrid]

Thor is the best lynch because of the following 3 elements:

1. Starting his "hypocrite" argument
2. "More votes = better" and no other justification.
3. Sarcastic demeanor and anti-town attitude when called out.

[singersigner]

Devon's spot is still scummy because of lack of reasoning and increased neutrality. I'm waiting to see what her replacement does.

Ok, let me get this straight. You've been defending her to no end, regardless of people telling you it doesn't look good, and now she's on your scum list? Like...is this to distance yourself, or what?

I really don't agree with your defense. You can't possibly think it's a good idea to speak for someone else in this game. Or have you forgotten who your true allies are in this game?

I do agree with you about Thor, though.

[DemonHybrid]

You missed the point train again -_-

How does "Please be understanding of her need to replace out. Play with us some other game" equal to a defense AT ALL? Did you forget the post where I said she should have an eye kept on her?

Here's a fun fact: me asking everyone to not be pissed that she's replacing out HAS NOTHING TO DO with my view on what her alignment could be. And I think it's plenty appropriate to speak for someone when they regret being forced to replace out, could get a bad reputation and is in their very first mafia game.

[Thor665]

singersinger - questions, she doesn't notice them because she doesn't read, or she thinks she can dodge them. See quoted text below for questions I'd still like answered.

Unvote: DemonHybrid
Vote: singersinger

Hopefully you'll notice stuff now.

@singersinger

1. I can't tell if you're crazy or obtuse. Let's go with this - I'm town because my role PM proves that this is so - show me evidence to the contrary or go away.
2. So I'm being aggressive about things (or as I call them scumtells) and I'm making people get defensive (or as I call it, making them respond so I can get scum reads on them) Congratulations, you have discovered that my playstyle is more aggressive then yours!

How is this confusing town?
How is aggressiveness more likely to be done by scum then town?

Your list of scum suspects is really fascinating;
Thor
Far_Cry
DH

You...ah...have sort of noticed that amongst all of my aggressive attempts to confuse town that I've sort of championed both of the other lynches on your list, haven't you? What's your case on each of the other two - I want to see how it's different then mine - go!

Still wouldn't mind lynching DH either.
Someone in that mix is probably scum.
singersinger's case on DH as currently presented is megaweak.
DH's case on me is still really excited about my sarcasm and "anti-town" behavior. Still hasn't explained how sarcasm = scum or how I'm being anti-town other then being sarcastic.
His other two points just show an inability to understand the strategy of what was happening around my votes - null to obtuse read on that.

More thoughts on singersinger once she cobbles together an answer to my questions.


@DH - questions or you - what is (specifically) my anti-town behavior and how does it hurt town?
Also, sarcasm as a scumtell? How does that work? <---I may or may not be being sarcastic with this question.

[Chevre]

Sotty7 replaces Devon.

[Far_Cry]

I will UNVOTE: DH
VOTE: Far_Cry because he refused to unvote on the grounds it would look ridiculous to unvote so soon. A scum needs to avoid doing things that look ridiculous, while a townie just needs to hunt for scum.

This is a stupid reason to vote for me. Had I not already told everybody that my vote was placed solely for the reason to promote discussion. I have no need to unvote, because the desired result of my decision has not been produced yet.

I find this game pitiful. No wants to do shit, no one wants to say shit. Instead, we are resorting to voting each other for some ridiculous reasons. I have yet to find one good case against anybody, one that's reasonable and makes sense. Here, we have jimfinn, who mind you, has been actively lurking, going out and calling me scum trying to spring up activity. While it is true that I said it would be ridiculous to vote and then unvote so soon (and it would be), he failed to notice that the reason of my vote was just for the sake of actvity, and then goes around and twists the meanings of my actions.

Now I would like you to tell me who's scummier. UNVOTE: DemonHybrid, VOTE: jimfinn

Except that you specifically stated that the reason you were not unvoting was because "it would look ridiculous". This is what jimfinn's attack is based on. And nowhere have you refuted that this is scummy. Even though you make mention of it in this very post. In fact, you seem to have actively twisted his case to be "because I unvoted". Bad Far_Cry. Bad.

I admit to making a mistake. My ideas of trying to not look ridiculous is wrong. It was also bad that I rage voted jimfinn (so I

unvote

now) But, I don't think it so scummy. True it was something to be suspicious about, but not to outright vote me and attack me. It truly would look ridiculous if I had unvoted so soon, and it has nothing to do with me being town or scum. It would just look ridiculous

He's replacing out. Is there any reason for you to say this?

She's new and was rather embarrassed about replacing out. I know her IRL (she goes to the same college as I do).

Then you can be the one to console her IRL, not make excuses for her here. People replace out all the time. It's not your job to make excuses. To me, it sounds like you're just trying to protect someone. I really don't like this. You're not sitting well with me at all anymore. Thor's responses to my questions have been acceptable, but you're still making excuses for someone who's not even here anymore.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: DemonHybrid

So, what happened to me? Am I still scummy, or why are you jumping around?

[singersigner]

singersinger - questions, she doesn't notice them because she doesn't read, or she thinks she can dodge them. See quoted text below for questions I'd still like answered.

Unvote: DemonHybrid
Vote: singersinger

Hopefully you'll notice stuff now.

@singersinger

1. I can't tell if you're crazy or obtuse. Let's go with this - I'm town because my role PM proves that this is so - show me evidence to the contrary or go away.
2. So I'm being aggressive about things (or as I call them scumtells) and I'm making people get defensive (or as I call it, making them respond so I can get scum reads on them) Congratulations, you have discovered that my playstyle is more aggressive then yours!

How is this confusing town?
How is aggressiveness more likely to be done by scum then town?

Your list of scum suspects is really fascinating;
Thor
Far_Cry
DH

You...ah...have sort of noticed that amongst all of my aggressive attempts to confuse town that I've sort of championed both of the other lynches on your list, haven't you? What's your case on each of the other two - I want to see how it's different then mine - go!

Still wouldn't mind lynching DH either.
Someone in that mix is probably scum.
singersinger's case on DH as currently presented is megaweak.
DH's case on me is still really excited about my sarcasm and "anti-town" behavior. Still hasn't explained how sarcasm = scum or how I'm being anti-town other then being sarcastic.
His other two points just show an inability to understand the strategy of what was happening around my votes - null to obtuse read on that.

More thoughts on singersinger once she cobbles together an answer to my questions.


@DH - questions or you - what is (specifically) my anti-town behavior and how does it hurt town?
Also, sarcasm as a scumtell? How does that work? <---I may or may not be being sarcastic with this question.

lol. Are you voting for me so I "notice" stuff? Cute. Anyway, I did notice, but didn't have time to respond to everything at the moment. I still don't, but if you wanted me to acknowledge you, there you go, I did. You have this incessant need for attention, don't you? You'll get a better response when I get home tomorrow night.

Far_Cry...honestly, I'd be fine with Thor's, DH's, OR your lynch.

[DemonHybrid]

what is (specifically) my anti-town behavior and how does it hurt town?
Also, sarcasm as a scumtell? How does that work? <---I may or may not be being sarcastic with this question.

If you were sarcastic and sarcastic alone, I would not vote you. No way in hell.

I had called you out for both using a pretty stretchy case on Far Cry (that hypocrite fiasco) and then voting me because "more votes are good". And your reaction to me calling that out is sarcasm. That's what makes it scummy.

A gun is not deadly on it's own. Put a murderer behind that gun and suddenly, the fact that the gun exists is bad.

[Thor665]

I had called you out for both using a pretty stretchy case on Far Cry (that hypocrite fiasco) and then voting me because "more votes are good". And your reaction to me calling that out is sarcasm. That's what makes it scummy.

???

You called me out for sarcasm when I responded to you "are you admitting something?" post when I was responding sarcastically to singersinger's case that I was scummy because I was either trying to act townie and/or was buddying to Jack as he replaced out (better's choice)

Is "Thor makes weak cases" the extent of your issue with me? If so stick to that, if not - then you really do need to explain the above.
I still don't think you explained how I was being anti-town - I guess the weak cases and sarcasm? Okaaaay...

What's your read on singersinger considering your hatred for weak cases and sarcasm?

@singersinger - Yes, I voted you so you'd notice and because I desperately crave attention at all times, it appears to be working on both counts. Looking forward to my answers.

I admit to making a mistake. My ideas of trying to not look ridiculous is wrong. It was also bad that I rage voted jimfinn (so I unvote now) But, I don't think it so scummy. True it was something to be suspicious about, but not to outright vote me and attack me. It truly would look ridiculous if I had unvoted so soon, and it has nothing to do with me being town or scum. It would just look ridiculous

Oh dear gawd, doesn't anyone know that you only need one VI in Mafia games, and you only need them for about half of Day One?

@Far_Cry - you admit you made a "mistake" that means you think you did something "wrong." In this game that equates to either anti-town or scummy - which means it's "right" for jimfinn to vote you for the wrongdoing, which means it's (once again) "wrong" that you rage voted him for it. This is one winding spiel of nothing that basically amounts to you saying 'yes, what I did was scummy, but I just made two scumtell mistakes one after another, let's move on please.'


@Andrigan - I want your read on singersinger and DH as regards the Thor case. Do you think both of them legitimately believe in the case they are presenting on me? Why/why not?

@redtail - Why do you think I couldn't get more votes on the Far_Cry wagon? Scum avoided hopping on for some reason, what are your thoughts as to why?

@jimfinn - In post 225 DH didn't notice that Jack had replaced out, I consider this potentially at odds with his persona of wanting to keep things exacting and not wanting town to act in a wild and wooly manner. What are your thoughts on this?

[Far_Cry]

I admit to making a mistake. My ideas of trying to not look ridiculous is wrong. It was also bad that I rage voted jimfinn (so I unvote now) But, I don't think it so scummy. True it was something to be suspicious about, but not to outright vote me and attack me. It truly would look ridiculous if I had unvoted so soon, and it has nothing to do with me being town or scum. It would just look ridiculous

Oh dear gawd, doesn't anyone know that you only need one VI in Mafia games, and you only need them for about half of Day One?

@Far_Cry - you admit you made a "mistake" that means you think you did something "wrong." In this game that equates to either anti-town or scummy - which means it's "right" for jimfinn to vote you for the wrongdoing, which means it's (once again) "wrong" that you rage voted him for it. This is one winding spiel of nothing that basically amounts to you saying 'yes, what I did was scummy, but I just made two scumtell mistakes one after another, let's move on please.'

Then why aren't you voting for me? I am town who made a scummy looking mistake, and am trying to unravel from it. What am I supposed to do, defend an action that's obviously wrong? Defend a decision based wrongly on emotions?

[Thor665]

Quite frankly Far_Cry, I'd *LOVE* to wagon you up right now. But I can't seem to get that one going for some reason. Besides, it's not exactly like you're the one lone beacon of scum in this game.

Who's your current top scumread and why?

[Nexus]

Ok, I'm back early.

Right: Jack replacing out, after making us wait. I'm not happy about that, but whatever. I'm not convinced he's scum anymore, though.

Thor: Yes, he's acting anti-town, but that doesn't mean he's scummy. I've made that mistake before.

Singer: More aggressive than I've seen her before. As the last time I played with her, she was scum, this means I'm not feeling her as scum today.

DH: I'm undecided on. I think he's a little scummy, and I think his needing to justify Devon was unnecessary, but to vote for him based on that? No.

Far_Cry: Post #235 is an interesting one. It reads to me like a bit of "oh, I made a mistake, I'm trying to rectify it, so leave me be. Which, really, we shouldn't be doing. So no, that doesn't wash with me. Keeping pressure on, and you not making anymore scumslips would prove you're town. Taking pressure off would just make it easier for you.

The others, I don't really have much on.

So yes, I don't really know. I want to see what the replacements have to say. However, I'll

unvote

for now.

[Far_Cry]

Ok, I'm back early.

Right: Jack replacing out, after making us wait. I'm not happy about that, but whatever. I'm not convinced he's scum anymore, though.

Thor: Yes, he's acting anti-town, but that doesn't mean he's scummy. I've made that mistake before.

Singer: More aggressive than I've seen her before. As the last time I played with her, she was scum, this means I'm not feeling her as scum today.

DH: I'm undecided on. I think he's a little scummy, and I think his needing to justify Devon was unnecessary, but to vote for him based on that? No.

Far_Cry: Post #235 is an interesting one. It reads to me like a bit of "oh, I made a mistake, I'm trying to rectify it, so leave me be. Which, really, we shouldn't be doing. So no, that doesn't wash with me. Keeping pressure on, and you not making anymore scumslips would prove you're town. Taking pressure off would just make it easier for you.

The others, I don't really have much on.

So yes, I don't really know. I want to see what the replacements have to say. However, I'll

unvote

for now.

There can't be 4 scum in this game, so who looks more scum than the other(s)?

[Thor665]

@Nexus - how am I being 'anti-town'? Quite frankly I think you're being more anti-town then me between your weak opinions and V/LAs.

@Far_Cry - I asked for your current top suspect (and reasoning), if you're planning to not answer the question let me know so I'll stop asking.

[Nexus]

Oh, I'm sorry for having a life and having to leave.

You're acting like an ass, with sarcasm and general nasty comments. Which detracts from actual conversation.

[Nexus]

*conversation should read scumhunting.

[Thor665]

@Nexus - whoah! If you think I'm being intentionally rude to you then I immediately apologize. All I'm doing is playing the game and trying to actually keep conversationa nd information flowing.

If you legitimately think I'm stifling scumhunting by trying to run up wagons on people and trying to get other people to vote then I think you're really missing what I'm doing. Also, please note your top suspects list and then note the people that I've been pressuring - if I'm really so anti-town and am ruining scumhunting then why are all of your top suspects also my top suspects? And do you actually believe I've done nothing to get the information that you suspect them for out into the open?

Sarcasm is not a scumtell (nor is it anti-town, unless it's all the person does)
I

strongly

disagree that my comments have been either nasty or have been because I'm acting like an a$$. (and if you think I'm rude and obnoxious you're in for a rough ride here at MS, because I'm one of the nice ones)

[Nexus]

I think you're calling me out on having to go v/la was unnecessary and a little harsh, yes. I also think your attitude is a little harsh, and I've been at MS for a few months now, and there are worse people than you, yes.

I know sarcasm isn't a scumtell, but I find your attitude a little unhelpful, and thus anti-town. Your comment a couple of pages back about "I

must

be scum blah blah blah" was unnecessary.

It's all good. I'll re read the thread again and see what happens. I apologise for being distracting.

[Thor665]

I think you're calling me out on having to go v/la was unnecessary and a little harsh, yes.

I was making a point using it as an example. You've done it, and I didn't call you a bad person for doing it, I just noted that it didn't help town. I never said you were acting like an a$$ for example, which might be something someone could take offense at in my mind.

Quite frankly I'm indifferent on V/LAs (if I had an issue with that I would have had to be all over Jack). I do think my ding on you for not having enough of your own opinions is valid and appropriate, and you should seek to correct this.

I know sarcasm isn't a scumtell, but I find your attitude a little unhelpful, and thus anti-town. Your comment a couple of pages back about "I

must

be scum blah blah blah" was unnecessary.

The question I was responding to was unnecessary too.
Serious question;

Let's say a player asked you this;

Yes, he's

acting

anti-town, but that doesn't mean he's

scummy. I've made that mistake before.

Haha, did you just admit something?

He's taking stuff out of context, bolding it, and making a joke (or he's making one of the worst scum cases ever.) You might decide that because he's saying "Haha" at the front of the post that he's not being serious. Therefore you have roughly three options;

1. Ignore the post because it's not a helpful post.
2. React seriously to the post (how?)
3. Make a joke back.

When I was in that situation I made a joke and sarcastically claimed I *was* scum and he had caught me - he then called my sarcasm scummy and voted me for it - and now I have other players agreeing with him on this (???!)

What would you have done? Seriously - I want you to compose your pro-town response to that question and post it.

[Nexus]

I would've ignored it, because otherwise I'd have said something stupid, knowing me

[Thor665]

Okay, so at that point why is my answer so bad? At worst I probably shouldn't have replied at all in your opinion, but why is my reply so bad for town?

[Thor665]

Also - is the question a good one for DH to have asked?

Why is the answer worse then the question?

[Nexus]

It's just your attitude. I can't really explain it, it just grated on me, so can we stop having this distracting conversation and do it after the game, please.

[Thor665]

Frankly, I think if you're listing my anti-town attitude as an issue in the game that it's not distracting but is relevant to the game. Why do you want to bring up my answer as bad but not discuss the relevance of the question?

Unvote: singersinger
Vote: DemonHybrid

Something's going on here.