NY 118 - BBM's Large Normal Mafia (Game!)

[Gorrad]

It's far from uncommon. It's to give them an edge- so they don't follow the town for ages just to die at night.

[Gorrad]

EBWOP: fool the town

[Porochaz]

Hello, I am here, and I am sober, possibly.

I have caught up now, I want to look deeper into a few things which I will do, in due course. I over extended myself recently but having ended a couple of games, I should be back on target.

[evilpacman18]

I guess it's POSSIBLE that he could be immune to it. I have no reason to believe either way.

[Gorrad]

Ok.

[Antihero]

In all honesty, this is all fluff. I just want Porochaz to stop lurking or for the mod to announce his V/LA or something.

"In all honesty" is a phrase that's pretty good at tipping you off that what you're about to read is a complete lie.

[Bunnylover]

In all honesty, this is all fluff. I just want Porochaz to stop lurking or for the mod to announce his V/LA or something.

"In all honesty" is a phrase that's pretty good at tipping you off that what you're about to read is a complete lie.

But it isn't a lie. Voted for a pressure vote.

[evilpacman18]

Ok.

Why? This is relevant.

[singersigner]

V/LA through Sunday night.

[Shanba]

Bunnylover is another bad wagon.

He put himself, time and again, on the 'martyr' block while not scumhunting at all. IF he's town, he actively tried to not have scum be caught. He then later on admits that the only reason he put himself up to be martyred is so that he'd seem protown and not be lynched.

Actively tried to not have scum be caught? That's a pretty huge leap from "tried not to be lynched himself." But anyway, with tells like these I always feel the fudge factor is too large to take them particularly seriously - there's a large chance that the player doing it is just new (OH NO DONT LYNCH ME is a pretty common new player reaction) and hence although there's a particular advantage for scum such that rational scum will perform said act more often than rational town, the irrational town/scum factor is much larger than both and swamps any potential utility from the scumtell.

Thanks! I understand where you're coming from and will try to explain what I can.

1. Yes. I hopped on the easy lynch. What you're overlooking here is that my second choice of lynch at the time was at L-2. Obviously Wraith wasn't going to get lynched that day, and Dana had claimed cop. I was happy to lynch someone I found scummy D1.

?

Do you mean wickedest when you said wraith? Also, dana was much lower on your scumlist than that - d1 it wasn't just wraith ahead, it was wickedest and hiphop, too. What's more, your day 2 vc analysis didn't dig any dirt on dana. From this section it looks like the reason you weren't voting dana was because he had claimed cop, but in reality he was a long way down your list.

2. I repeatedly told you. He actively detracted from the game with his posts. Town have no reason to act the way his did. And I daresay I made more of a case on him than anyone else. I can understand that you may not understand my case on him, but it was MY case.

I know I've partially addressed this, but I don't feel it's true. For starters, there were a number of players who had expressed suspicion of Wraith before you had, and a number of cases had been made against him - for example, confidanon. I struggle to call what you added a case at all - it covered a lot of the same ground other cases did, and what's more parts of it came after your vote on Wraith. In fact, the reason you are stating here as your primary one (the "martyring") didn't happen until well into day 2.

But that's not what really gets me. It's that everyone you've attacked (seriously attacked, that is, not throwaway remarks in your vc analyses) have been players already on the town radar. Take robbnva. Xite pointed him out to you first. Wraith, similarly - other players got there first. I think if you were properly scumhunting, you'd find many more players who were under the radar and attack them.

3. I don't look at connections. It's really not something I trust. They're SO EASY to fake, and when I'm scum I go out of my way to do so. Porochaz is lurking, yes. I accept that. But I don't see anything else to your case.

Well, for a start there's the stuff I posted day 2 which you totally ignored. The thing about benmage was a sidepoint. Regardless, you're wrong about connections. Maybe you fake them, and I agree that it's good scum play to fake them, but I think the vast majority of scum players don't - and an even smaller fraction fake them when under no pressure (notably, they only start thinking about these things when they realise they're going to be lynched.) What's more, that particular type of connection - attacking a weak case on a partner - is a scumtell I'm particularly happy with. When scum see a strong case on their partner then they might well know there's little point defending him, but when the case is weak there's no reason not to try and shut it down instead (after all, a good townie shuts down weak cases). At the time, all I had said about prozac was that I thought he was scum. The fact that benmage found this practically the only thing worht commenting on in practically the entire game day is significant.

As for your tunneling: I have made cases on Dana, Robb, Wraith, and Frank, and mentioned multiple times my dislike of Flinter and Hiphop. Other than Porochaz and Myself, who do you suspect? I have no bloody idea. Maybe you aren't tunneling, but you certainly aren't expressing that in thread.

Where are these cases then? I've seen a few points, but never anything solid. It seems like smoke and mirrors to me.

As for me tunneling - yes, I've had prozac and now you as my top suspects for a while. Day 1, you may note, I was the first vote on dana and then started the pressure against hiphop. On later days? Day 2 I mostly pushed prozac (the push on flinter was for a reason I'd rather not reveal yet - but I didn't have any particular feeling s/he was scum), but that was because I didn't think my prozac attacks were getting the attention they deserved. I've repeatedly named hiphop as a player I'm worried about - simply because his contribution level has been unacceptable and that's prevented me from getting a read - and until he died, UA was my third (after you and prozac - although tbf you've only really crystallised as scummy in my mind since about mid day 2 when some of your posts on wraith started to ring alarm bells). But he was a pretty damn distant third.

Regardless, I've also been very vocal about other issues. I take offence to your use of the word tunneling, as it implies that I'm not looking elsewhere. I am, but the cases I've seen elsewhere haven't been appealing. I've made it pretty clear I think wraith is town, for example. The fact is there's a core of active, self-destructive players who keep attracting wagons (wraith, dana, robb, frank) that frankly, I don't think are very strong (dana obviously being an exception when the rber failed to rb him and the real cop died - even I have to admit that's a pretty decent case ) and then there's a plethora o shadowy, half-there, fade into the background types who've been happy to pretty much coast along all game (UA, Lowell, Benmage, Prozac etc.) As such it's been hard to read, but I'm pretty sure most of the core group, players like xite and wraith, are town. I have strong townreads on those two, in fact. Which means that given I have a scumread, and that scumread is on one of the god damn lurkers, I'm pretty certain he's scum. The lukewarm response I've had has only fuelled that - my case is fairly strong, I know that, so I'm bemused as to why it's pretty much fallen flat.

I don't go for the easy lynches. I start the wagons. I don't hop on for the ride, I make cases. The reason the lynches are easy is because either Xite or I push them and everyone else agrees. Look at every wagon I've been on- how many of them have me not in the first few votes? If I hopped on at the end parroting, I might believe your case had more merit. As it is, I think you just don't understand what I've been saying, and that paired with OMGUS (in response to the tunneling accusation) is the root of it.

I look forward to your reply : )

Well, at least you're polite scum ^_^

[Wraith]

Okay, revising. I am fine with a lynch on any of the following:

Xite
Bunnylover
Prozac

I'm too tired today, I'll reread Gorrad tomorrow if I have time.

[Bunnylover]

Wraith why did you add Prozac to the list?

[Gorrad]

Ok.

Why? This is relevant.

It was in relation to your idea that Xite was SK. Because you didn't know about how frequently NK-immune they are, nor have strong feelings on the matter, the matter is moot.

Shanba, I think you're falling into the classic trap of thinking someone's scum because they're vocal. I'll address your points better tomorrow, but consider the possibility.

[Shanba]

What? Please don't give me that bullshit. I am not thikning you're scum because you're vocal, nor am I thinking Prozac is scum because he's vocal.

[Shanba]

Please, stop diagnosing me with stuff. It's not because of OMGUS, it's not because you're vocal. It's because you're scummy for the reasons I've already given.

[Wraith]

Wraith why did you add Prozac to the list?

For one, because Shanba strongly suspects him, and Shanba is probably my strongest town read at the moment. For two, I haven't liked his play all game, and I've said that, it's only recently that other people have superceded him on my scumlist. For three, he's active lurking like crazy, and this late in the game, he's either scum or detrimental.

[Porochaz]

Lurking =/= scum.

In anycase your reasoning is fairly flawed, the fact you are piggy backing on a general strong town read without really bringing overly much to the table yourself is not a good sign.

vote Wraith

[Gorrad]

Bunnylover is another bad wagon.

He put himself, time and again, on the 'martyr' block while not scumhunting at all. IF he's town, he actively tried to not have scum be caught. He then later on admits that the only reason he put himself up to be martyred is so that he'd seem protown and not be lynched.

Actively tried to not have scum be caught? That's a pretty huge leap from "tried not to be lynched himself."

Precisely. Hence why I think he's so unlikely to be town. He only actively tried to not have scum be caught IF he's town, which his later actions contradict.

But anyway, with tells like these I always feel the fudge factor is too large to take them particularly seriously - there's a large chance that the player doing it is just new (OH NO DONT LYNCH ME is a pretty common new player reaction) and hence although there's a particular advantage for scum such that rational scum will perform said act more often than rational town, the irrational town/scum factor is much larger than both and swamps any potential utility from the scumtell.

He didn't say OH NO DONT LYNCH ME. He said OH NO LYNCH ME in an attempt at reverse psychology. He says this himself later on. Reverse psychology doesn't seem to be to be a newbtell to me.

Thanks! I understand where you're coming from and will try to explain what I can.

1. Yes. I hopped on the easy lynch. What you're overlooking here is that my second choice of lynch at the time was at L-2. Obviously Wraith wasn't going to get lynched that day, and Dana had claimed cop. I was happy to lynch someone I found scummy D1.

?

Do you mean wickedest when you said wraith? Also, dana was much lower on your scumlist than that - d1 it wasn't just wraith ahead, it was wickedest and hiphop, too. What's more, your day 2 vc analysis didn't dig any dirt on dana. From this section it looks like the reason you weren't voting dana was because he had claimed cop, but in reality he was a long way down your list.

Yes, I meant wickedest. /facepalm. Sorry, I was tired. The only reason Dana was low on my scumlist was because of the claim. He WAS a long way down my list because I believed the claim! He was an uncountered cop! You know the whole 'one town for one scum is always a good trade' thing? Well I figured if Dana was lying he'd have been countered!

2. I repeatedly told you. He actively detracted from the game with his posts. Town have no reason to act the way his did. And I daresay I made more of a case on him than anyone else. I can understand that you may not understand my case on him, but it was MY case.

I know I've partially addressed this, but I don't feel it's true. For starters, there were a number of players who had expressed suspicion of Wraith before you had, and a number of cases had been made against him - for example, confidanon. I struggle to call what you added a case at all - it covered a lot of the same ground other cases did, and what's more parts of it came after your vote on Wraith. In fact, the reason you are stating here as your primary one (the "martyring") didn't happen until well into day 2.

But that's not what really gets me. It's that everyone you've attacked (seriously attacked, that is, not throwaway remarks in your vc analyses) have been players already on the town radar. Take robbnva. Xite pointed him out to you first. Wraith, similarly - other players got there first. I think if you were properly scumhunting, you'd find many more players who were under the radar and attack them.

The martyring started D1. I distinctly remember reading it in my WoT. And no one else had really mentioned it at all, unless my memory completely fails me. I agreed with some of the other cases, yes, but my main point was new.

Really? This is your scumtell? You want to know who ELSE has attacked only people on the radar? The vast majority of the town in every game. But that's beside the point. Let me explain my logic to you (I've mentioned it before but shall repeat).

People on the town's scum radar, as backed up by actions so far, are not ones that will get killed at night. Scum would be utterly stupid to do so. The majority of NKs have been lurkers, and for good reason. Once someone reaches a certain threshold, the only way they will die is by lynch or by the scum running out of others to lynch. If we lynch people below the radar when there's still people on it, we end up with an endgame full of people who have been scummy for ages but never lynched! And I, for one, don't want to see that. This is not me advocating we lynch someone just because they've been run up. It's me advocating we lynch scummy people on the radar before we lynch scummy people off the radar.

3. I don't look at connections. It's really not something I trust. They're SO EASY to fake, and when I'm scum I go out of my way to do so. Porochaz is lurking, yes. I accept that. But I don't see anything else to your case.

Well, for a start there's the stuff I posted day 2 which you totally ignored. The thing about benmage was a sidepoint. Regardless, you're wrong about connections. Maybe you fake them, and I agree that it's good scum play to fake them, but I think the vast majority of scum players don't - and an even smaller fraction fake them when under no pressure (notably, they only start thinking about these things when they realise they're going to be lynched.) What's more, that particular type of connection - attacking a weak case on a partner - is a scumtell I'm particularly happy with. When scum see a strong case on their partner then they might well know there's little point defending him, but when the case is weak there's no reason not to try and shut it down instead (after all, a good townie shuts down weak cases). At the time, all I had said about prozac was that I thought he was scum. The fact that benmage found this practically the only thing worht commenting on in practically the entire game day is significant.

Ok. Other points noted. I still think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the connections part, though. It just opens up too much of a can of WIFOM for my taste.

As for your tunneling: I have made cases on Dana, Robb, Wraith, and Frank, and mentioned multiple times my dislike of Flinter and Hiphop. Other than Porochaz and Myself, who do you suspect? I have no bloody idea. Maybe you aren't tunneling, but you certainly aren't expressing that in thread.

Where are these cases then? I've seen a few points, but never anything solid. It seems like smoke and mirrors to me.

As for me tunneling - yes, I've had prozac and now you as my top suspects for a while. Day 1, you may note, I was the first vote on dana and then started the pressure against hiphop. On later days? Day 2 I mostly pushed prozac (the push on flinter was for a reason I'd rather not reveal yet - but I didn't have any particular feeling s/he was scum), but that was because I didn't think my prozac attacks were getting the attention they deserved. I've repeatedly named hiphop as a player I'm worried about - simply because his contribution level has been unacceptable and that's prevented me from getting a read - and until he died, UA was my third (after you and prozac - although tbf you've only really crystallised as scummy in my mind since about mid day 2 when some of your posts on wraith started to ring alarm bells). But he was a pretty damn distant third.

Regardless, I've also been very vocal about other issues. I take offence to your use of the word tunneling, as it implies that I'm not looking elsewhere. I am, but the cases I've seen elsewhere haven't been appealing. I've made it pretty clear I think wraith is town, for example. The fact is there's a core of active, self-destructive players who keep attracting wagons (wraith, dana, robb, frank) that frankly, I don't think are very strong (dana obviously being an exception when the rber failed to rb him and the real cop died - even I have to admit that's a pretty decent case ) and then there's a plethora o shadowy, half-there, fade into the background types who've been happy to pretty much coast along all game (UA, Lowell, Benmage, Prozac etc.) As such it's been hard to read, but I'm pretty sure most of the core group, players like xite and wraith, are town. I have strong townreads on those two, in fact. Which means that given I have a scumread, and that scumread is on one of the god damn lurkers, I'm pretty certain he's scum. The lukewarm response I've had has only fuelled that - my case is fairly strong, I know that, so I'm bemused as to why it's pretty much fallen flat.

I'm too tired to dig out post numbers, and to be honest if you're read my Iso as thoroughly as you claim, you'd probably dismiss them offhand.

I'm not going to go into a semantics argument about what tunneling means to me, but you're taking it far too personally. I haven't read you in Iso- I don't think you're scum. As we have played the game, the only things I have heard from you have been things against myself and Porochaz. If there was more, it was enough of a sidenote that it didn't register as notable.

[Gorrad]

For three, he's active lurking like crazy, and this late in the game, he's either scum or detrimental.

I laugh at the irony.

[flinter]

Gorrad is starting to become a huge distraction. While earlier it was stated that Wraith his play improved (and that he should have played like that earlier), Gorrad now revives the frankly not that impressive Wraith-case, and I don't like it.

Both the current wagons are not that bad, but I have a lot more confidence in the Xite wagon then in bunnylover's. This being based on votecount analysis.


Shanba, your case on Gorrad isn't that bad, but I don't think we'll see a Gorrad lynch today, if things stay roughly the same. If you had to choose between a Bunnylover lynch or a Xite lynch, which would you choose? You would be more protown if you followed that reasoning with your vote (or improved your case on Gorrad or started a good case somewhere else), as now your vote isn't going to help the town.

[Shanba]

improved my gorrad case? Sorry but speaking frankly, the cases on both bunnylover and xite are shit. xite defended dana a bit? So what? Frankly, I was shocked that no one had any doubts at all. I was still wrestling with my thoughts at that point.

As far as bunnylover goes, I don't see anything more than smoke and mirrors. Still, he's one of those fade-into-the-background types, and unlike xite I don't have any particular townread on ihm. Bullet to my head between him and xite it would be him, but I don't intend to be pressured into yet another suboptimal lynch.

Actually, I'm slightly baffled at this point. How can you people believe these cases you have are strong? Honestly, either there's somethign I just don't get or everyone is playing terribly. No one, with the exception of wickedest, has said practically anything at all that I agree with, and the way my cases have fallen flat baffles me, because I know they're good cases. This stuff would normally have people jumping up and down in anticipation, or at least acknowledgement - I had to post about that prozac case several times before anyone read it, and even then it seems a substantial number of people just ignored it. Am I being dumb? Are people just not paying attention? What the hell is going on?

[Gorrad]

You're going against the grain. You're posting cases on people who aren't remotely on the radar, referencing obscure tells. You seem to be off in your own little world of scumhunting while the rest of us are going after other people. Other than you, people aren't talking about me. The same thing happened with the start of your case on Porochaz. It doesn't matter how good or bad the cases are, they're distracting from what the majority of the town is talking about and therefore shoved aside.

The only reason Porochaz is on the radar now is because of your constantly pushing him. We cleared enough of the other distractions away that we can now pay attention to your case on him. Keep pushing this case on me, and I promise people will look at it once I eventually reach the public eye.

[flinter]

improved my gorrad case? Sorry but speaking frankly, the cases on both bunnylover and xite are shit. xite defended dana a bit? So what? Frankly, I was shocked that no one had any doubts at all. I was still wrestling with my thoughts at that point.

As far as bunnylover goes, I don't see anything more than smoke and mirrors. Still, he's one of those fade-into-the-background types, and unlike xite I don't have any particular townread on ihm. Bullet to my head between him and xite it would be him, but I don't intend to be pressured into yet another suboptimal lynch.

But using the argument "the fakeclaimed cop

will

claim a guilty on this buddy" is rather unnatural. And on that moment, Dana claimed to have a innocent report on Xite. I think that is no coïncident and Xite tried to get us to think the fakeclaimed cop would come with true results in a roundabout way.

Actually, I'm slightly baffled at this point. How can you people believe these cases you have are strong? Honestly, either there's somethign I just don't get or everyone is playing terribly. No one, with the exception of wickedest, has said practically anything at all that I agree with, and the way my cases have fallen flat baffles me, because I know they're good cases. This stuff would normally have people jumping up and down in anticipation, or at least acknowledgement - I had to post about that prozac case several times before anyone read it, and even then it seems a substantial number of people just ignored it. Am I being dumb? Are people just not paying attention? What the hell is going on?

Your cases don't have me "jumping up and down in anticipation". I hope this isn't because I'm playing badly, but I did have some trouble finding the point of the "prozac"-case (you weren't trying to insult porochaz, right?). Don't get me wrong, I do like your Gorrad case, but I like the one on xite more. And since there are multiple players seemingly feeling that way, I question the use of the rather drawn out discussion you are having with Gorrad.

And was this long answer only to justify keeping your vote there, without any further change to the game?

[Bunnylover]

Shanba I think when people suspect someone of scumminess, what they say are always looked at for an double motive and if one isn't found they are usually ignore in case someone else finds the hidden motive.
I'm looking at the people who are still alive and I have no reads on most of them =/.
I'm wary of Porochaz, but thats just because of Kise saying he the GF, and other then that he hasn't done anything that I can remember to make him scum.
Wraith had that whole kill me to save this person, which he admitted to be a ploy to give him town point and not be lynch.
Everybody else is just like blah I don't know anything about this person, except for Gorrad who have been pro-townie for awhile, but in a recent game that I had with Parama who was very pro-townie, he turned out to be mafia. I sill think Gorrad is townie though.
Xite, I really don't see what he's done to be scum or town.
I don't know, I can't get a read on anything x_x.

Preview Edit: ew I forgot Dana had said Xite was innocent =/. But that just builds a WIFOM doesn't it Flinter?

[flinter]

I'm wary of Porochaz, but thats just because of Kise saying he the GF, and other then that he hasn't done anything that I can remember to make him scum.

Weird. The same thing makes me think he got an innocent result on Porochaz, while he expected a guilty.

Preview Edit: ew I forgot Dana had said Xite was innocent =/. But that just builds a WIFOM doesn't it Flinter?

which is why it isn't the main part of my case.