Open 254 ~ Trust Issues (FvEvE) Game Ends

[singersigner]

Uite...I think answering questions last is ok sometimes, but not when you've put a question out there that's been misconstrued to be a role-fishing question. It just seemed like she was looking for information that she could've used to misrep or look scummy later, while not allowing herself to do the same. It didn't feel right...though I don't like how some of the people reacted to the question either. Off the top of my head, Quadz seemed unreasonably defensive over it.

As far as 4 votes being too much for RVS...I don't feel comfortable getting to an L-2 situation, with at least (probably) four different anti-towns here, and only 7 to lynch. Too much allowance for making excuses to get to a quick-lynch. That might not seem like enough for you to hold back (to each their own), but it is for me.

[a2rudeboy]

If you're trying to learn how to be a better player, wouldn't it make more sense to only play a few games at a time, but get really involved in them, rather than playing at a lowel level in many games?

Yes, that would probably be the more logical thing to do. How relevant to the game at hand is this round of questioning though? That's the one thing I find interesting about your questions to everyone, is that there seems to be a mix of things which comment on the game or are pushing scumhunting forward to an extent, but there also appears to me questions that aren't really helping too much.

Also. No PRs? We do have three masons.

[Uite]

Uite...I think answering questions last is ok sometimes, but not when you've put a question out there that's been misconstrued to be a role-fishing question. It just seemed like she was looking for information that she could've used to misrep or look scummy later, while not allowing herself to do the same. It didn't feel right...though I don't like how some of the people reacted to the question either. Off the top of my head, Quadz seemed unreasonably defensive over it.

I don't think it could have been rolefishing in any way, so the initial premise is flawed. I agree that quadz reacted strangely to it, hence my line of questioning to him.

As far as 4 votes being too much for RVS...I don't feel comfortable getting to an L-2 situation, with at least (probably) four different anti-towns here, and only 7 to lynch. Too much allowance for making excuses to get to a quick-lynch. That might not seem like enough for you to hold back (to each their own), but it is for me.

If there's a quicklynch in RVS, that means we've found scum. Getting a scum, possibly two, for the price of a townie isn't so bad.

Yes, that would probably be the more logical thing to do. How relevant to the game at hand is this round of questioning though? That's the one thing I find interesting about your questions to everyone, is that there seems to be a mix of things which comment on the game or are pushing scumhunting forward to an extent, but there also appears to me questions that aren't really helping too much.

I admit that I was trying to find questions for everyone, and not all are directly related to scumhunting. My line of questioning to you is an attempt to help improve the game, by getting you to either be more active or replace out, so it's not exactly useless.

Also. No PRs? We do have three masons.

I'm not counting the masons as powerroles, since masons can't really do anything except confirm each other as Town. While that is pretty powerful, especially when they pool their resources to scumhunt, to me it looks more like a faction allied and beneficial to the town than roles with an actual ability.

[CSL]

Votecount apparently hasn't changed, but I'll put one here soon enough.

Deadline is in 2 days.

[Antihero]

*sigh*
singer is still scum, but Zed is too, so

VOTE: Zed

Nexus, can we please have something before the end of today?

[CSL]

Roll Call IX

quadz08 -3- singersigner, Uite, Zed
Lowell -1- a2rudeboy
Pomegranate -1- springlullaby
a2rudeboy -1- Sevei

Zed -5- Pomegranate, quadz08, Lowell, kunkstar7, Antihero

Nonvoters -1- Nexus

12 in class, 7 expels

Please tell me if this is off.

Deadline is the 6th of October, at 7:00pm EST. Deadline hitting now means Zed gets kicked out

Less than 48 hours.

[Zed]

That's not how it works. There are two scumteams, of two players each. Any one of those can be wiped out at the end of Night 1, which would mean they lose. As a townie being killed is not that bad. Fully eight out of twelve players are town. If one of them dies, there's still plenty of town left to fight the scum. And while a scum lynch is usually preferable to a town lynch, even a mislynch can provide valuable inforamtion to analyse. The only town that can excuse self-preserving behaviour are powerroles, but there are none in this game.

Okay. I still don't agree with you, but thats okay. I don't feel like argueing anymore over something that neither of us are going to change our opinions on.

Unvote, Vote: Zed

Let's get this over with, hm?

[Zed]

For the record, I'm not scum. I'm not trying to AtE, I just would like to avoid this if possible.

[CSL]

Zed has been ejected from the game for playing against her win condition. Looking for a replacement.

Her vote does not count.

[CSL]

Zed suddenly gets smacked in the face with a dodgeball. She's taken to the nurse.

chesskid3 comes in, explains he is taking Zed's spot, and takes the seat.

chesskid3 replaces Zed, effective immediately.

[Sevei]

Ding. Dong. I was going to vote for Zed. Chesskid3, you get ONE post to shock and awe me into putting you at L-1. We're too close to deadline to waste time.

a2rudeboy....why oh why aren't you scumhunting yet?

Yes, that would probably be the more logical thing to do. How relevant to the game at hand is this round of questioning though? That's the one thing I find interesting about your questions to everyone, is that there seems to be a mix of things which comment on the game or are pushing scumhunting forward to an extent, but there also appears to me questions that aren't really helping too much.

Also. No PRs? We do have three masons.

[Sevei]

EBWODP: Chesskid3, you get ONE post to shock and awe me into

not

putting you at L-1.

[chesskid3]

EST
A lot
The Batman
Chaos durr

I hate wall posts, btw blarghhh. Oh well. I'll suffer quietly.

Town vibes from singer

Ok something's up with Antihero and Singer. I think both town, but if one flips scum, I would expect the other to flip the other scum faction.

Not buying the +10 town points for Sevei, but ok.

Nexus is giving me bad vibes.

Lowell is playing to his meta - i.e. act scummy all day errday. Surprise, surpise. Probably town though.

Wow spring is playing this game? Also this first post sucks. 2 FoSes, calls a scumteam and votes a 5th person with no discussion of them first.

Unvote

Vote: Springlullaby

Singer/Anti may very well both be scum, but they are obviously not scumbuddies. Suggesting this is distancing should one flip scum, setting the other up for a lynch, since it's not you.
Why don't you save us some time and tell us if you're werewolf or just regular?

Where the heck is quad/sevi at?

Singer attacks quad for lurking. Ok, cool. Let's see where this goes

Ooh, Uite is cool.

Quad returns and hops on a wagon with the reasons that Zed's scumhunting involves streches, when Quad is doing none. HRM HRM HRM.

FoS: Quadz08

Nexus should be more active :/

Also I'm seeing the Quad wagon fall apart for a wagon on me.
Antihero's hop onto my wagon I also don't like, especialy the exageratted *sigh*

Vote for me if you want, replacing into scummy slots is hard, and I shouldn't get a pass because I replaced. Zed may very well have read as scum to me if I'd even bothered reading what he posted - I don't read my replacements posts for that reason.

When I flip though, Scumteams look like Singer is is one, Anti is in another, with Quad/spring completing the teams.

[singersigner]

A couple things...

You're posting a lot of processing information, but not a whole lot of analyzing that information.

I'm confused as to why I gave you town vibes, and now you're decided I'm scum against scum-Antihero...

[chesskid3]

that was thoughts as I read the thread. You initially gave townvibes, and then I changed my mind. I really dont have to the time to do more than thoughts w/o analysis tonight, but I can do bigger stuff tomorrow afternoon, and hopefully we can shift to a quad lynch.

[singersigner]

Alright, fair enough. I'll look forward to your analysis tomorrow, then.

[Uite]

Zed has been ejected from the game for playing against her win condition. Looking for a replacement.

I'm going to say that the force-replacement was unfair, because there is currently no rule against what she did, and she didn't get so much as a warning.

Lowell is playing to his meta - i.e. act scummy all day errday. Surprise, surpise. Probably town though.

Interesting. How do you know this? A quick search reveals that you've never played with him before.

Also, why are you voting springlullaby over quadz? A spring lynch probably isn't going to happen, but quadz is plenty scummy, and a lot more likely. You already expressed hope of lynching him today, and votes really help with that.

[chesskid3]

Anaylsis of Quad for now, because it's highest priority:

ISO 0-6: RVS and filler
ISO 7: Answers RVS
ISO 8: more filler
ISO 9/10: Attacks Equinox too strongly for my liking over an RQS. While I personally hate RQs's, I understand the motivations behind them. If they are truly rolefishy, I will refuse to answer and call the RQs out on it, but asking what people's favorite roles are in a game with no PRs except masons really doesn't strike me as rolefishing. It isn't at all helpful, but it's not fishing.
Attacking such an RQS is a good way to appear townie while still avoiding actually making any stands.

ISO:11 V/la
ISO 12: Backtracks on his opinion of a rolefishy RQS. Now it's a nulltell, while before it was being overdramatized, after nobody supports the agressive attacks on Equinox. Also noted that his attacks on Equinox were done with his RVS vote still on Nobody Special. A note I'm keeping in the back of my mind is a Quad/Equinox scumteam, especially if Quad flips scum. Voting someone else while FoSing partner is a common scum ploy to seem like they suspect their partner to get the townpoints upon an eventual flip, but not actually start any kind of wagon on their partner.
The rest of this post is very scummy.
Zed's post announced a hunch he had that was that Lowell and Antihero were a scumteam. While the reasoning was pretty weak, it was an attempt at scumhunting, noting interaction between players of the game....Something quad has not done at all up to this point. Yet he is attacking Zed for creating a weak case.
When all you do is tear down other's cases without building any yourself, you aren't helping the town, and there's a scummy motivation for this.
Also, this is a classic chainsaw defense. A attacks B, C rolls in and votes A.
Also a note about scum-pair analysis. Very useful. Maybe not as useful before any flips have been seen, but in a game with 4 scum, barring a large number of cross-kills, Town has at most 2 mislynches, and possibly only one. So yes, very early in the game buddy analysis can be quite useful, because scumbuddies are just getting used to how they are going to interact with each other during the game. This is when slips occur, and when buddying can be seen.

ISO 13: Buddying with Uite. "That's actually a really good question, I hadn't thought about it that way"
The continued attack on Zed reads to me as opportunisticly attacking a weaker player who is stumbling, not as someone who is trying to actually hunt scum.
Iso 14: Again, backtracking and then calling someone out for not posting content, when he has posted only slightly more _content_ himself.


ISO 15-17 are similar, so I won't comment on them at the same time.

Overall impression: Has done zero scumhunting, yet has managed to start a wagon on a chainsaw defense for my slot voting based on a hunch during page 6. Weak case is a towntell. No case is a scumtell.
Has been backtracking ever since the flak from his early agression towards Equinox.

Also I noticed a significant difference in the interactions between Equinox/Quad and Uite/Quad, however it is just a greater shade of the same thing.
Quad attempted to find random things Equinox did scummy, and there was no support for this. However Equinox's slot was more patronizing towards Quad than any other slot.
I would write this off as a relationship between the two due to meta, except there is an even greater correlation between Uite and Quad. When Uite questions others he is far more agressive and a lot less patronizing than with others.
Interestingly enough when i went to get quotes for this, I can't find it, but I know I got that vibe from this.

IGMEOY: Uite

Unvote

Vote: Quad

@Uite:
I read a game or two with Lowell in it. One he was scum and one he was town, I believe, but while reading both games I noticed his play was very anti-town.
Also I didn't check the votecount when I replaced in, I only saw that I was at L-2.
I still Like Singerscum better than quadscum, but given the deadline, I have no problem voting a 60/40 scum/town read.

[chesskid3]

Singer ISO coming later today. However that will be more towards information to be used tomorrow than for today's lynch, since it does seem targets are limited to me or Quad, based on the lack of activity of about 4 players in this game.

[chesskid3]

It is also possible I got Singer/Springer confused. I have class in 30 minutes, so that will be all for now. Sorry for the chain posting.

[quadz08]

Zed's post announced a hunch he had that was that Lowell and Antihero were a scumteam. While the reasoning was pretty weak, it was an attempt at scumhunting, noting interaction between players of the game....Something quad has not done at all up to this point. Yet he is attacking Zed for creating a weak case.
When all you do is tear down other's cases without building any yourself, you aren't helping the town, and there's a scummy motivation for this.

I felt like Zed's weak case was pretty scummy, personally. She essentially created what I think is a non-existent connection in order to make both other players look scummy. She later backtracked pretty severely on this, as I pointed out in #187. She later said she changed her mind because she was more awake and capable of rational thinking later on; I'm not a huge fan of that excuse.

ISO 13: Buddying with Uite. "That's actually a really good question, I hadn't thought about it that way"
The continued attack on Zed reads to me as opportunisticly attacking a weaker player who is stumbling, not as someone who is trying to actually hunt scum.

Right, OK. Somebody makes a good point which I hadn't thought about and I admit to that; OBVIOUSLY buddying.
And yes, heavens forbid I point out a clear contradiction. It's obvious that I'm just tunnelling.

[chesskid3]

For someone who isn't a fan of the incapable of rational thinking excuse, what's your excuse for not considering why asking what people's favorite roles are in a game with no PRs isn't rolefishing, and then acting like Uite was incredibly smart for pointing it out?

Also I'm going to have to disagree with you. A case based mostly on gut on page 6 is a towntell. Scum wouldn't throw out something like that because it draws a lot of attention to them. Chainsawing is a scumtell, however. Town FoS (1-2 town), you vote the town, the FoSed players OMGUS and like that, a wagon on a town has started, and you aren't even anywhere in the back-and-forth picture. What a perfect way to get a town lynched without having to be in the limelight, huh?

You say you found the weak case Zed made scummy. Well now "Zed" is making a strong case on you, based on the fact that you have yet to do any actual scumhunting, and your votes have been opportunistic.
What's your opinion of that?

[quadz08]

As I've said at least once before, I simply didn't think about it. I've never had to before. I know this isn't an excuse for NOT thinking about it, but it's not a scum-tell, just a stupid-tell.

Yes, that must have been my insidious plan, because what you said I did and what actually happened are so similar. I pointed out somebody as scummy, putting myself out there and very much in the light. You say I started a bandwagon without being in the back-and-forth at all, which is CLEARLY false.

I disagree that I haven't done scumhunting. The case I made on Zed is legitimate scumhunting, and if you disagree, then we have different definitions of scumhunting.

[CSL]

@ Uite: Site rules say "Play to win the game." Self-voting is playing against your win condition, which falls under that rule.

[chesskid3]

Lowell and Antihero were the people Zed FoSed. Notice how both of them are on the OMGUS+chainsaw wagon?
That explains 3 out of 5 votes on me.
Mind quoting a few sentences of you scumhunting for me?