Open 226: Big Love - Game over! Town wins!

[Ythill]

That.. makes no sense.

Hito got it mostly right.

Fact is, I don't

know

mallow's alignment, or Miyu's, or anyone's except mine, so I've tried to weigh the evidence. Most people, no matter what their alignment, are going to seem scummy in one way or another, whether it's because of suboptimal/strategic play, bad logic that seems false, the bad luck of being in the wrong spot during a VC, or beacuse that person is actually mafia. Wacka did some things that seemed scummy to me, the worst of which were the three places his statements made it seem like he knew people's alignments before they were revealed (I quoted them in #1166). In two of those three, he sounded as if he knew mallow was town.

This might have happened for several reasons. If Miyu is town, then it might have been the result of bad writing or overconfidence from Wacka. If Miyu is scum, then it might have been a real slip, and therefore prove that mallow is town Or it might have been extremely crafty distancing on Wacka's part. I know enough about that guy to know he's not a master of subtlety, so I ruled out the last option. Then I read Xite, mallow, and Miyu to determine which of the former it was more likley to be. What I found is that Xite and mallow looked

really

scummy (worse than anyone else, by far) and Miyu was kinda meh. Therefore, my conclusion is that Wacka was being dumb/overconfident, Miyu is town, and mallow is scum with someone else.

Now, it is

possible

that I am wrong. If mallow is town then Miyu is back on the table as a suspect, but there's not much point in discussing that today.

I want to come in an make some super convincing post, but I'm just no match for those intellecutal muscles of his. Honestly I'm not even trying to butter him up, these are just really solid posts.

Orly? I'm not that easy...

[hitogoroshi]

Special Edition "I feel so guilty for reneging on internet commitments I can't sleep at 4am" ISOs

Sanxion

He's pretty low activity and low impact. His votes for chihuaua and ShatteredViewpoint both seem like they aren't busses. I'm going to quote something from Ythill here:

Oh dear, a couple wall posts that I skimmed and no vote counts since L-3 so I missed it.

Oh well. I'm happy with this lynch or I wouldn't be on the list of players voting for him.

This reads like a mafioso who wants townie-cred for bussing.

Contrast that with Sanxion's votes. They are apathetic lumps, a shrug of the shoulders and going along with someone else writing a case. The fact that they actually hit scum paints him in a townie light. I simply don't see a scum busing with such little involvement on their own part.

From there, he stays on Robo mongering for a lynch. Eventually a Robo lynch happens, and from there...not too much.

Sanxion. You haven't posted much content, and right now you're not being much help. Fortuitously, what you have done seems to put you as a fairly likely townie. Get your vote out there where it's doing some good, not because you're worried we'll lynch you otherwise, but because

we need to lynch the scum.

smashbro_of_the_SSS > RedCoyote

Smashbro_of_the_SSS

Dear lord. ANOTHER player who didn't post much but hopped on both of the scum wagons. I'm really gonna need to do VC analysis after the ISO's to figure out who's responsible for these wagons.

So how do smashbro's votes on chihuahua and SV look? They are more involved then Sanxion's, and I could see them being potential busses. It's honestly pretty hard to say. There's very little in this ISO, and I can't make up my mind one way or the other.

RedCoyote

Remember when I just said I was gonna analyze the vote count? Red did a lot of the heavy lifting for me. This doesn't mean much for alignment, just leaving this here as a note to myself and others who might want to look.

Not sure what to make of him voting for a claimed lover. Since I'm not ISOing the dead, I don't know how often it was brought up that they were lovers. It's certainly true that vote-shy Enigma (as gathered from David's ISO) would merit a vote without the lover claim. It shows that he didn't read in exacting detail - but how could you be expected to? I'm not sure if these means anything one way or the other, though I think townies tend to follow claims slightly less.

I have big questions regarding this:

I have a new post ready to go. The draft is saved. Everyone is ignoring my question though.

and in his next post

Wow, thanks for replacing in, Ythill! I was planning on doing a little more VC analysis myself, although I prefer your conclusion to mine.

Vote: mallowgeno

Red's "draft is saved" post never materialized. This could mean a couple of things. Either Red is a townie, drew some conclusions from VC analysis, and ended up preferring Ythill's conclusions to his own. Or Red is scum and was merrily making up some b.s VC analysis to save his ass when he realized he could just be passive instead.

There's obviously a pretty big difference, and I'm keen to try to figure out which one it is. To that end, I'd very much like to see the "draft" you spoke of, even if you don't agree with anything said in it anymore. Put it in area tags labeled "old draft" or something, so it's clear this is separate from your current thoughts.

The rest of his posts are mostly just passivity and agreement. Now, we don't want the town going every which way at once, so nothing is intrinsically wrong with following. But I'm getting a feeling of hollowness from Red's posts and it's leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. You don't need to worry about making a "good post", Red, but I really do want to see your thoughts. They don't need to be convincing, they just need to exist.

[Ythill]

Goodposting. Sanx seemed obv-town to me. I agree that RC has been a little empty and too trusting, but nothing really stood out as a scumtell during my initial reread and the slot has been pretty clean on the VCs. I might take a closer look at him tomorrow if I'm still alive, and someone else probably should if I am not.

If you're looking for pre-colored VC analysis, you can find mine in #1145. I didn't do every VC, but I think I got all of the major swings, labeled with mod-iso numbers in case you want to cross-reference. Of course you'll have to pretend my name isn't in green, but that should be no problem.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Day Five #8

• DavidParker (Miyu, Ythill) 2 L-3
  hitogoroshi (ZeroFang) 1 L-4
  mallowgeno (RedCoyote, DavidParker) 2 L-3
  Miyu (hitogoroshi, mallowgeno, Mr. Sandman) 3 L-2

Not voting: Sanxion

With 9 alive, 5 votes are required for a lynch.

V/LA:

Activity Check!

We're at full capacity

Prod Count:

Muthaa, smashbro_of_the_SSS - 2

chihuahua0, millar13, Pittbunny, Reverse Simplicity, Sanxion, Shattered Viewpoint, Switz, youngminii - 1

Deadline for Day 5 is Wednesday, 13th October at 8pm UK time.

Tick, tock.

[hitogoroshi]

Oh, that vote count reminds me, I need to do this:

unvote

Also, Dizzy, you still have me listed as "muthaa" once in the vote count and once in the prod count (not sure if I inherit his prods or not, but either it should be hitogoroshi at 2 or I should just be off the list.)

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I fixed the vote count error. The prod count isn't a mistake, it's just record keeping.

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: David
VOTE: mallowgeno

[Miyu]

How does it make sense to you David?
Also, why are you not discussing your thoughts on the game? I asked and clarified for you. What is your reason for abstaining?

Red, I've had my vote on David since almost the beginning of toDay. What are your thoughts?

[DavidParker]

You want my thoughts - asking vague questions such as "what are you thoughts" is a scummy way of seeming pro-town and as if you are trying to get more information, when it is a useless, not thought out at all, question.

[Ythill]

Heh. Scummy is

not

a manner of speaking. Why can't you simply give a summary of your opinions? Like a list of suspects with a few lines about why you suspect each? The closest you've come to doing so was #1121, which was empty of reasoning and posted more than two weeks ago.

@Miyu:

A better question might be, how does it not make sense to you? I've explained twice and hito did a decent job too.

[RedCoyote]

Red, I've had my vote on David since almost the beginning of toDay. What are your thoughts?

On David?

I don't think he's a bad lynch, but I think mallow is better.

Look, I just don't really have the inclination to give a PBPA in this game. I'll stay here and I will make posts, but as far as making big cases a la you, Ythill, or hito here, then it's probably not going to happen.

Frankly, I'm starting to think all three of you are going overboard on it. I don't know if that changes my read of any of you yet, but I don't know why everyone is afraid to lynch. Sandman seems like the only one who's really came out to say that mallow is not worth lynching now (although since even he isn't posting regularly, it's hard to continue to give him credit for it). This game is being held up on account of inactivity and/or perfectionism. I'm not opposed to a David lynch, and I've made that much clear. If that is where the momentum swings, then I'm content with moving. I do not propose to be a leader in this game (trust me, the town doesn't need a game full of leaders), but I will speak up if I see something that I don't feel comfortable with.

[Miyu]

Honestly, I am ridiculously done with you David. I've asked questions in just about every form possible. Generic, specific - and for the most part they have gone unanswered, and not only by yourself.
Are you having some sort of major issue comprehending this game? We are supposed to be catching scum. Which means asking questions, reading the thread, analyzing, forming opinions and stating them, etcetera. If you aren't going to actually play, you might as well make this easier for all of us - and just out your scummate.

Ythill. I read it, I apparently was not reading it fully the first time. I suppose I can see how it makes sense for your perspective. How ever from mine, it doesn't really.

Yes, Red. I've been voting for David since #1099.

[hitogoroshi]

Look, I just don't really have the inclination to give a PBPA in this game. I'll stay here and I will make posts, but as far as making big cases a la you, Ythill, or hito here, then it's probably not going to happen.

It's not my intention to give "big cases"; only to give a transparent view of my thoughts on the gamestate.

Red, I'd still like you respond to this:

Red's "draft is saved" post never materialized. This could mean a couple of things. Either Red is a townie, drew some conclusions from VC analysis, and ended up preferring Ythill's conclusions to his own. Or Red is scum and was merrily making up some b.s VC analysis to save his ass when he realized he could just be passive instead.

There's obviously a pretty big difference, and I'm keen to try to figure out which one it is. To that end, I'd very much like to see the "draft" you spoke of, even if you don't agree with anything said in it anymore. Put it in area tags labeled "old draft" or something, so it's clear this is separate from your current thoughts.

I understand deadline is looming; when I replaced in I didn't know I was getting a job and entertaining an out-of-state friend for the weekend. Whether or not I finish the rest of the ISO's tonight (honestly, though, I think it's within my reach, as long as my lack of sleep doesn't catch up with me), I'll make sure to throw down a vote.

(Interestingly enough, now that I have the job proper, it actually means more mafia time for me instead of less. I'm an attendant at the math lab, and because access is math majors only, it's absurdly quiet around here.)

[hitogoroshi]

I'll be putting each ISO in separate posts for readability. I will post back-to-back even if no one else posts in the interiem, don't worry. I do still think I can finish tonight.

Wacka Alpaca/Miyu

Wacka Alpaca

Very scatteredbrained. The conditional vote thing is a little out there but probably a red herring in terms of alignment.

I typed that but then I saw this:

Xite has surpassed Millar in votes, therefore
Unvote:
Vote: Xite

This is a scumtell near and dear to my heart:

scum love to use transparent, objective reasons to lynch.

The reason is that no one can say "your vote is scummy", because, hey, they told you exactly why they were voting. You can create a mechanism, and while people can criticize the mechanism itself, they CANNOT criticize you using it because you made your voting criteria completely transparent. It completely divorces you from the responsibility of your vote. As icing on the cake, people almost never DO criticize the mechanism itself, so you can just say something like "I'm voting for the person with the least posts", and more often than not it's a get-out-of-content free card. Of course, the problem is that bad players will also grab this regardless of alignment, because if you have no responsibility for your vote you can't feel bad because you mislynched a townie, because, "Hey! I only did that because the vote count willed it!". It seems more like the second than the first here, but still, it's a powerful scumtell even with this source of error.

His post on chichi is hella scummy. He forwards, not reasons why he thinks chichi is town, but objective reasons why he's not the best lynch. It's a great way to fight against a lynch but, if it happens, still ride the bus (Hey, I thought he was scummy too - it just wasn't the

right time

.)

Then, of course, there's the infamous ragequit. It really does seem like a disgruntled townie more than anything.

Miyu

Something has been giving me a bad vibe the whole time reading this, and I wasn't quite sure what. After some pawing through, it hit me -- Miyu's posts are very much about what is and not about what she thinks. She's asking a ton of questions, and she's posting quite a lot on what people have done. But what about what she thinks? DavidParker is her first scum suspect, and she has said that she "parks her vote" while she "hunts and looks at people". Voteparking is basicially null - while I've found it's not as effective as flexible bandwagoning (you could call me a reformed voteparker), it takes all kinds to run a town. And she's asking questions that could be construed as "hunting and looking at people." But the thing is, we never know the

result

of the hunting.

Who's Miyu's strongest town read? Who's Miyu's second scum read? If DavidParker flips scum, how will that change Miyu's view of the gamestate? I don't know. No one but Miyu does. That opacity is extremely dangerous, especially because Miyu is being so active. No one can say she is lurking, after all, and yet I'm worried not because of the scummy things she has posted but because of the potential scummy things she has avoided posting.

It could be a playstyle thing, of course, so I'll give Miyu a chance to be more transparent. Answering those questions from the last paragraph would be a good start.

[hitogoroshi]

xite/mallowgeno

Xite

Not sure what to make of xite's chihuaua vote "because he seems the scummiest for some reason." Especially given she quickly switches to Muthaa. If she brings it up after a chi scum flip, I'm willing to call it a scumtell, with her getting a "bussing" vote in at a time when it's absolutely painless. If she never mentions it again, slight town points, because most people simply don't think to throw down worthless derpy votes on their scumbuddies.

Her giant campaign to call herself millars lover is extremely hard to understand. I'm looking forward to Ythill's ISO to try to glean the meaning of it.

Err, nevermind, I guess! She gives up the game in her post 64. I have a fairly dim view of these sorts of plans, especially when they turn on such hilariously specious non-logic as this:

If millar is scum, they're obviously not gonna kill him, but they will also know that I am not his lover = might try to kill me in the off chance I am a lover

Overall, xite's scatterbrained posts would be a null tell, but the votes are damning. She thinks Chihuahua is scum, but forwards reasons to delay his lynch.

The worst exchange is the following. She votes Robo. Then, she switches to chihuahua because he seems the scummiest. This is the second time she votes chichi for this "reason." But then, she 'forgets' she's not voting Robo and promptly switches back. When do you "forget" that you're voting for the person you find scummiest? Answer: when you're actually just making up your suspicions.

mallowgeno

Opens by ISOing Robo and only Robo, and in that ISO, accuses Robo of "tunneling." I've seen a lot of things in my day, but a complaint of tunneling from someone who is literally only reading, talking to, and voting for one player is a new one.

His SV vote is weird. He's tunneling Robo but suddenly feels obliged to slip on to the wagon du jour. In ISO it smells like a bus (he hadn't read anyone but Robo, but he knew SV was scum, wanted to hop on his wagon), but if deadline was ticking it would be a smart town play to hop on the only swelling wagon. Since there were two weeks left it's very hard to buy the interpretation that he felt rushed as a townie.

For someone who's only ever commented on Robo, he's suddenly agreeing with lots of people on who the scum are, playing very passively. His ISO 25 is actually noteworthy for a special reason for me. I have a lot of respect for Don_Johnson's scumhunting, and seeing as he's confirmed town, seeing that he went after mallow does a lot to bolster the idea of mallow scum.

Ythill, I'm curious in your specific thoughts on ISO 34. I won't say anything more because I want your interpretation without my bias seeping though.

Mallows day five play is just terrible. He votes DP for the hammer and says Wacka was probably town. Then he switches to voting Miyu because she's "trying to cover up the frustration"? What the hell does that even mean? And then he suddenly forwards that the newbie card doesn't fly outside of newbie games, but he thinks DP could still be town?? So, the newbie card won't work for david, but he could STILL be newbie in the newbie-or-scum dilemma?

Mallow is easily my strongest candidate for scum.

VOTE: Mallowgeno

[Miyu]

Obviously your skills at reading and comprehension, need some work Hito.

In chronological order, for "ease". I only copy/pasted the ones where I stated or implied or referenced my own opinion.

Spoiler: Mine

- Mr.Sandman's vote, while I assume in the 'random voting stage' looks bandwagon.
- yabba has an ego.
- Most arguments between players that I have come across have been between two townies.
- Self voters can go jump off a cliff. Especially those who choose to self-vote rather than ask to be replaced.
- I am glad that millar looks to of been replaced. Why is it hard to not be ridiculously silly. Just.. don't sign up for a game if you plan on being a clown.
- I'm on the Robo side of him/Don in regards to knowing how Lovers work. Why wouldn't someone read the rules/information posted by a mod? Or at least skim. Especially when it contains things you may not know. Incredibly lazy.
- Awh SV. I don't think being scum is your forte.
- millar was more jester than lurker.
- Mr.Sandman is an active lurker.
- Self voting is a null tell. I've seen townies do it, because they were fed up with the game, rather than request to be replaced.
- Xite/Millar is a mess and distraction.
- Repeat. Xite/Millar is/was a mess.
- Sanxion lurks and wagons.
- Wacka was lazy.
- About 'walls of text'. Suck it up. This is mafia, on a forum [gasp I know]. If you don't want to read a bunch of words, chat mafia would be more suited to you. I hear EM is 'real good on no discussion'. xD
- In terms of Xite/Chi/Millar. Lynch order: Chi/Xite/Millar. Chi was a lot more scummy than Xite and Millar. Xite and Millar were more anti-town than actually scummy. I don't see the benefit of Millar's actions benefiting the scum if he were one. Maybe if it was later in the game, but First Day? Xite, was actually in the last game I replaced in. Which funnily took place at the same time as this one it seems. She

acted much the same way. I think maybe just has an obsession with claiming, and doing it extremely poorly -> wrong timing. Her gambit/plan.. distraction for the town.
From day one, out of the remaining players..
mallowXite/Millardrmy I lean ranti-town, villagers.
Robo, Mr.Sandman, Sanxion are scummy.
Muthaa lurker
Every one else, no read.

- Smash lurks.
- I don't think lovers revealing at this point is a good idea. Why not just.. not discuss who on that list could possibly be millar's lover. It solves the issue of possibly giving clues to the scum for a double kill.
- Zero. Your 'I think we should vote for Xite's slot today' when SVscum is a candidate, is scummy. You didn't even vote for Xite's slot..
- I think these cases on Don are silly. I know he can border on annoying, and maybe wackjob. But he pushed for Chihuahua... on Day One. How would that benefit the scum if he were one. If you think millar is/was scum, as well as Don. How does that compute? That would be millarscum acting ridiculous on Day One and close to getting himself lynched. Then it would be Donscum bussing Chihuahua on Day One. That would make a ridiculously terrible scumteam.
- David's #652 vote for Enigma because of meta, and effectively avoiding contributing to the discussion at hand, is scummy.
Over all. I feel Switz is town. Still the same for drmyxite/millarmallow. Though activity level is down.
Sanxion, Zero, Robo, and David are up on suspicion.

- Muthaa, why are you always lurking?

Confirm vote: Robocopter
"Well, I don't really care who we lynch as long as we lynch somebody."
"I don't care who is killed, lets just kill someone."
Guilty of lurking, guilty of bandwagoning.
Which to be honest - lurking and wagoning is a guilt for close to half of the player list. I think added with quoted statements, and his contradiction in terms of policy lynches the first day = scum.

I tend to not read my predecessors play, in all games that I replace into. As it has essentially no bearing on my thoughts and reads concerning the other players. I don't see how it is useful or productive.

I don't see how you can expect me to explain my predecessors play. Two totally different people, and no possible way I could get inside their head. I understand where the votes are. However that doesn't mean that people can go around voting willynilly without reasoning. Lucky for me nothing. My predecessor has no bearing on my actions. If you want to lynch Wacka, then you probably should of voted for him before he was replaced. If you want to lynch me, that is a different story.

The problem here, is that this game has been plagued by inactives and total whackjobs. How two scum were lynched, is a bit beyond me - other than they were pretty obvious. I highly doubt the entire scum team is going to be that way, so just sitting around and twiddling thumbs is not going to get them caught.

I could go on...
Currently, I've only got the strong read on DP. Rather hard to really evaluate someone, when they either refuse to answer questions posed to them, go inactive and idle out, or simply don't post at all.

[Miyu]

Eww. That is just.. defeats the entire purpose of spoilering. What happened to the other spoiler tags which collapsed it all?

[RedCoyote]

Red, I'd still like you respond to this

I'm sorry; I forgot you had asked me this. No, it really wasn't anything. I just made another updated VC color list just like my last one. Honestly that was what I was going to base my votes off of. I didn't expect you or Ythill to show up and start going to town on the game. When Ythill did, I thought he did a much better job laying out a case for mallow than I did. The main thing I was looking at being the Shattered Viewpoint lynch.

What happened to the other spoiler tags which collapsed it all?

Code: Select all

[spoiler=][/spoiler]

You left off the equals sign, hon. They have two different types.

Maybe I'm being bias on mallow because I don't want to mislynch David again. I know less about mallow's meta, after all.

Unvote

;

vote: DavidParker

[hitogoroshi]

Miyu, the format your post took and the examples you chose were rather telling.

Firstly, almost everything you chose was from of your catch-up posts. Yes, you have a nice density of opinions in ISOs 1-3. I figured it was rather implicit that most of my criticism was directed towards posts 4-49.

There's also the matter that, well, you're playing it fast and loose with the idea of "opinion." Let me classify all of the statements in your big block.

Spoiler: Information without Analysis

I tend to not read my predecessors play, in all games that I replace into. As it has essentially no bearing on my thoughts and reads concerning the other players. I don't see how it is useful or productive.


I don't see how you can expect me to explain my predecessors play. Two totally different people, and no possible way I could get inside their head. I understand where the votes are. However that doesn't mean that people can go around voting willynilly without reasoning. Lucky for me nothing. My predecessor has no bearing on my actions. If you want to lynch Wacka, then you probably should of voted for him before he was replaced. If you want to lynch me, that is a different story.


The problem here, is that this game has been plagued by inactives and total whackjobs. How two scum were lynched, is a bit beyond me - other than they were pretty obvious. I highly doubt the entire scum team is going to be that way, so just sitting around and twiddling thumbs is not going to get them caught.

Note: Information without Analysis isn't necessarily BAD to post, it simply doesn't fall under "opinion."

Spoiler: Player Analysis with No Attempts to Connect to Alignment/Association

- yabba has an ego.
- I am glad that millar looks to of been replaced. Why is it hard to not be ridiculously silly. Just.. don't sign up for a game if you plan on being a clown.
- millar was more jester than lurker.
- Mr.Sandman is an active lurker.
- Xite/Millar is a mess and distraction.
- Repeat. Xite/Millar is/was a mess.
- Wacka was lazy.
- About 'walls of text'. Suck it up. This is mafia, on a forum [gasp I know]. If you don't want to read a bunch of words, chat mafia would be more suited to you. I hear EM is 'real good on no discussion'. xD
- Smash lurks.
- Muthaa, why are you always lurking?

Confirm vote: Robocopter
"Well, I don't really care who we lynch as long as we lynch somebody."
"I don't care who is killed, lets just kill someone."
Guilty of lurking, guilty of bandwagoning.
Which to be honest - lurking and wagoning is a guilt for close to half of the player list. I think added with quoted statements, and his contradiction in terms of policy lynches the first day = scum.

Spoiler: Player Analysis with Implied but not Stated Connection to Alignment

- Mr.Sandman's vote, while I assume in the 'random voting stage' looks bandwagon.
- Self voters can go jump off a cliff. Especially those who choose to self-vote rather than ask to be replaced.
- Sanxion lurks and wagons.

Spoiler: Player Analysis with Explicit Connection to Alignment

- Most arguments between players that I have come across have been between two townies.
- Awh SV. I don't think being scum is your forte. (on an alignment-confirmed player)
- Self voting is a null tell. I've seen townies do it, because they were fed up with the game, rather than request to be replaced.

From day one, out of the remaining players..
mallowXite/Millardrmy I lean ranti-town, villagers.
Robo, Mr.Sandman, Sanxion are scummy.
Muthaa lurker
Every one else, no read.

- I don't think lovers revealing at this point is a good idea. Why not just.. not discuss who on that list could possibly be millar's lover. It solves the issue of possibly giving clues to the scum for a double kill.
- Zero. Your 'I think we should vote for Xite's slot today' when SVscum is a candidate, is scummy. You didn't even vote for Xite's slot..
- I think these cases on Don are silly. I know he can border on annoying, and maybe wackjob. But he pushed for Chihuahua... on Day One. How would that benefit the scum if he were one. If you think millar is/was scum, as well as Don. How does that compute? That would be millarscum acting ridiculous on Day One and close to getting himself lynched. Then it would be Donscum bussing Chihuahua on Day One. That would make a ridiculously terrible scumteam.
- David's #652 vote for Enigma because of meta, and effectively avoiding contributing to the discussion at hand, is scummy.
Over all. I feel Switz is town. Still the same for drmyxite/millarmallow. Though activity level is down.
Sanxion, Zero, Robo, and David are up on suspicion.

Spoiler: Other

- I'm on the Robo side of him/Don in regards to knowing how Lovers work. Why wouldn't someone read the rules/information posted by a mod? Or at least skim. Especially when it contains things you may not know. Incredibly lazy. (Don't know what post this is referencing, so can't comment)
- In terms of Xite/Chi/Millar. Lynch order: Chi/Xite/Millar. Chi was a lot more scummy than Xite and Millar. Xite and Millar were more anti-town than actually scummy. I don't see the benefit of Millar's actions benefiting the scum if he were one. Maybe if it was later in the game, but First Day? Xite, was actually in the last game I replaced in. Which funnily took place at the same time as this one it seems. She

acted much the same way. I think maybe just has an obsession with claiming, and doing it extremely poorly -> wrong timing. Her gambit/plan.. distraction for the town. (lynch order for three days ago doesn't really mean anything. Oh you put the confirmed scum as your first choice for lynch? cool story sis

That being said, while I was going through your ISO, I found something I missed the first time.

Bandwagoning is a scumtell. Town has absolutely no reason to be throwing their vote around all over the place and .. bandwagoning. Inactivity is not a scumtell, however extremely annoying. Lurking is one. When someone admits to not even reading the thread, it is extremely annoying; and I wonder why they are even playing in the game.

This would explain a lot of the discrepancy between what you think is "opinion" and what I do.

First - bandwagoning is absolutely, positively, supercalifragilisticexpialidociously not a scumtell. Town has no reason to be throwing their vote around all over the place? Here's a reason - to create the content we need to play the game at all. As I said before, vote-parking isn't inherently scummy. But you have to understand the only reason you can vote park at all because the job of content creation is being subsidized by the bandwagoning players. Good scumhunting relies on an environment where scum feel pressured, and pressure is created by good bandwagoning.

Now, if you think that "bandwagoning" and "lurking" are scumtells, you can move many of your posts from "Player Analysis with No Attempts to Connect to Alignment/Association" (the bad one) to "Player Analysis with Explicit Connection to Alignment" (the good one.) But the thing is, it's more nuanced then that. You must also look in to whether the bandwagoning or lurking seems scum-inspired or town inspired. You have to look at the context of the post and possible associative tells to try to form a comprehensive picture of the gamestate.

So we'll compromise. I understand why you would think that you've provided plenty of transparent content, and I'll drop the point this game. But in return, I'm going to get a point across.

Imagine I have made a mafia-playing robot. Call it "MiyuBot." Here are the functions of MiyuBot:

• When a player's posts fall below some threshold determined by the average post count of everyone in the thread, MiyuBot will post "X is a lurker."
  
• When a player changes their vote twice within some time threshold, MiyuBot will post "X is a bandwagoner."
  
• Once a week, MiyuBot will look for who has gotten the most lurker and bandwagoner messages, and park it's vote on them.

Here's the rule: if Miyubot can do it, you can do it too, but you can't call it content, and you sure as hell can't call it opinion. Mafia is a game about motivations, context, and associations, not "scum are the ones posting the least and voting the most." So by all means, vote for the lurker - but then explain why they are scum, because "they are lurking" is something MiyuBot could tell me.

And while we're on the subject of reads: What do you think about mallowgeno, Miyu? And Red, what the hell was that? You think you were too biased against mallow because you don't want to mislynch David again? And you realized this...because I posted a case on mallow?

[RedCoyote]

Actually, you know what, I can't.

Unvote

;

vote: mallowgeno

hito is on the money about Xite. I'm re-reading over Xite in iso, and I don't like her at all. She goes from voting Robo, to voting chihuahua for being "the scummiest", to forgetting that read, to voting Robo again, to pretending she's a lover, to claiming VT, to saying chihuahua is "slightly scum", to revealing her plan "only when she hits L-1". Meds or no, this is senseless.

[hitogoroshi]

Also, since I'll be going to bed and not finishing my other two ISOS (I feel justified, since I had to digress to that Miyu post) I have to say this tonight in case a lynch happens before I can do the Ythill ISO.

It's something I read in an MD thread a while back. Ythill was mentioning that he has a very explicit method of scumhunting, and he can do it equally well as town or scum. And the thing is,

he does

- almost never gimping his analysis to save a buddy. So, whether he is town or scum, it's usually a good idea to lynch whoever Ythill targets.

Why is this important? Mallowgeno looks crazy scummy, and he's almost certainly going to flip scum. Here's my worry - I'll bite the nk tonight, and then people will start treating Ythill as confirmed town. If he's scum, he wins a free game for that. Now, the thing is, I have no idea how scummy I think he is, because I've yet to hit the ISO. But I am intensely worried at the same time, because it's an easy easy play for him if he's scum.

To be clear, I am not at all saying we should lynch Ythill today. But I want to make sure everyone agrees that

a mallow scumflip does not clear Ythill as town.

I'm going to find anything even remotely scummy about him and grill him on it. It seems pretty foolproof. If he's scum, we lynch his scumbuddy and then catch him. If he's town, he's certainly competent enough to answer the questions, and he's probably right about the identity of the last scum. So, on the chance this is my last post before death (seeing as I'm going to bed with a great wagon at L-1), let me be explicit.

If mallowgeno is scum, there are very good odds that the last scum is either Ythill or DavidParker.

If mallowgeno is town, the last scum could be virtually anyone.

Ythill: if you're town, please understand why I'm saying this and don't take it personally. I have no idea how scummy your slot is, but I need to make sure that the idea you could be scum is at least addressed in the (very likely) event of a mallow scumflip.

[Sanxion]

I'll gladly vote for scum. Who is it?

IN all seriousness, I've been leaning David, and I thought I've been voting him all along. I'm not sure what the vote count is and sense I've been up for more than a day, now is not a good time to vote. So...later.

[DavidParker]

Just acknowledging the fact I am here, and will likely not be following this trend of "wall post" analysis. Feel free to lynch me for that if you think it's what is needed.

I think we will find scum in mallow+ythill somehow. If not, it's probably Miyu+Wildcard (Sanxion/sandman etc), but if that's the case then town are probably in trouble.

I'm sticking with my vote on mallow and continuing to not explain everything, so if that makes me scum, then go ahead and lynch me today.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Eww. That is just.. defeats the entire purpose of spoilering. What happened to the other spoiler tags which collapsed it all?

I fixed it for you.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Day Five #9

• DavidParker (Miyu) 1 L-4
  mallowgeno (DavidParker, Ythill, hitogoroshi, RedCoyote) 4 L-1
  Miyu (mallowgeno, Mr. Sandman) 2 L-3
  Muthaa (ZeroFang) 1 L-4

Not voting: Sanxion

With 9 alive, 5 votes are required for a lynch.

V/LA:

Activity Check!

We're at full capacity

Prod Count:

Muthaa, smashbro_of_the_SSS - 2

chihuahua0, millar13, Pittbunny, Reverse Simplicity, Sanxion, Shattered Viewpoint, Switz, youngminii - 1

Deadline for Day 5 has been extended to Wednesday, 13th October at 8pm UK time.

Deadline expires in roughly 33 and a quarter hours.