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Post Post #2375 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:08 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Jahudo wrote: @Nachomamma: Why did you vote your town? It was 3 days before deadline. Was Plum a stronger town read for you?
Yes. Plum is my strongest townread at the moment.
Jahudo wrote: What did your Ani/Fishy read end up being yesterday, or were you still not sure?
Town. I liked his defense, and I like his play a lot at the moment. His hammer on Chrono also seemed town to me, too.
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Post Post #2376 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:15 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Vote Count

Plum (3) - Fishythefish, esuriospiritus, Battosuai
Battosuai (1) - Plum

Not Voting (19) - Charlie, holycon, Locke Lamora, Rhinox, Nachomamma8, kmd4390, Ythan, Jahudo, kunkstar7
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Post Post #2377 (ISO) » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:02 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Nacho, but why did you vote Chrono?
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Post Post #2378 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:22 am

Post by esuriospiritus »

@Battousai:
I'd be willing to lynch KMD if/when Plum flips scum. I'm inclined to think KMD is town if Plum is.

Fishy is town, Jahudo is town, Battousai is probtown, Rhinox is probtown. Plum is scum, and Charlie and Ythan are probscum, I'm willing to trust KMD about Holy if he's town but ignoring his mysterious town tell on her she's pretty scummy, and I'm on the fence about everyone else.

This game is going excruciatingly slowly. ._.
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Post Post #2379 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:01 pm

Post by Ythan »

vote Plum x1


So you can keep track of me. And I really doubt scum would no-kill with this many players left.
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Post Post #2380 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:19 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Ythan wrote:
vote Plum x1


So you can keep track of me. And I really doubt scum would no-kill with this many players left.
Votes are not allowed to be split between players or not voting. It is an all or none thing. I will not count this as a vote due to this not being known.

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Post Post #2381 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:06 pm

Post by Ythan »

Then
FoS Plum x6
.
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Post Post #2382 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:22 pm

Post by Jahudo »

Actually, I'm good with Nacho right now.

I'll probably support a Plum lynch. I think Raider has a questionable history, and the slot connects fairly well with Chronopie.
Chronopie wrote:So raider, the likely early wagon, get turned around. of the early jumpers to the SV wagon, SSBF was the one without much reason.
His argument makes the most sense if he also thinks Raider is scum, but he never says as much. Otherwise why would he focus on the early jumpers? Late jumpers without reason could still be scum for following the bandwagon, but its early jumpers who could have an interest in protecting scum by voting town.
But Plum's defence of Amished wasn't a "look at the whole post" it was "no that's not a tell." Sounds like scum defending a buddy, or scum defending a townie for town cred.
I saw this two ways (Plum could either be scum with him or a townie), but after reading it along with the rest of his ISO, one scenario looks more likely. That he was distancing when it was safe and opportune to do so.
I feel that Plum's 'Sense of surety' of what's genuinely scummy needs a recalibration.
Here Chrono loses his confident and clear Plum read. If he wanted to argue this was Plum-scum tactics he could have easily argued it like before. But he focuses on the 'Plum being wrong' part as if she could just be misguided. It reads to me like he wants to pull his suspicion back so that he can justify a vote switch, which he does to Fishy.

Now I see 3 more scenarios.

1)
He thinks Plum has enough suspicion to get lynched, and is moving onto Fishy next.
But this doesn't feel like the move he pulled with SSBF, where he sheeped Ythan to "forget" he had ever called SSBF scummy. This time he still sheeps KMD but also says Plum is scummy. Its hard to interpret because he could just be protecting himself here, whereas he wasn't under suspicion when SSBF and Ani were the wagons. But if he wanted to protect himself more, I think he would have voted Plum when he had more justification for that vote anyway.

2)
Its all about Fishy, and Chrono was bussing.
If that's the case then why didn't he care when Ani was nearly lynched over SSBF, and instead Chrono left SSBF for Plum? It doesn't look like Chrono and Fishy are connected.

3)
Fishy was the largest town wagon
. It seems reasonable that he would go for Fishy-town instead of bus Plum-scum in this scenario because most of the players off the three major wagons were actually in favor of Fishy over Plum or Chrono. (Nacho, holy and Rhinox has all recently said as much in their ISOs) Amished was a wild card since he had been V/LA so long. Even I had expressed suspicions of Ani, so Chrono could have believed he could save himself and lynch town.

--------

I still want to look more at Plum herself before I feel comfortable voting though, and look at her old Charlie case again to see if there's merit to it.

@Plum: What caused your KMD turnaround? How do you feel about Fishy now?
-And if KMD was a ? for his interpretation of Ythan-Richard, why didn't you put Batt as ? too?

And a few old questions I don't think I figured out.
-Do you remember the “ways the phrasing could have happened by accident” you talked about in post 1927?
-Why did you include the unlikelihood of 2 scum factions into your argument that Amished's post was not a big deal? Why not stop at "scumslips aren't a good tell"? Why use setup speculation to bolster your position?
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Post Post #2383 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:59 pm

Post by holycon »

srry guys RL has gotten in teh way hopefully ill have some free time in the next day or so
Something good... something good... You look like SNOOPY and it makes me smile... but you have smelly dog farts.

I'm a girl so please don't call me a him he or dude =)
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Post Post #2384 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:30 pm

Post by Charlie »

esuriospiritus wrote: Fishy is town, Jahudo is town, Battousai is probtown, Rhinox is probtown. Plum is scum, and Charlie and Ythan are probscum, I'm willing to trust KMD about Holy if he's town but ignoring his mysterious town tell on her she's pretty scummy, and I'm on the fence about everyone else.

This game is going excruciatingly slowly. ._.
Well, I can agree with about half of this.
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Post Post #2385 (ISO) » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:32 pm

Post by Charlie »

Okay, Plum it is then. But Nacho is next.
VOTE: Plum
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Post Post #2386 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:52 am

Post by kunkstar7 »

To be honest, when Fishy mentioned the one-shot doc, I found that a more likely reason for a no-kill than Batt's theory. Fish is probtown, and I second the not telling of target.

Vote: Plum,
Seems like the best candidate today, considering that the holycon deal is probably not going anywhere.
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Post Post #2387 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:35 am

Post by Ythan »

Chuck you really are not in the position to call
tomorrow's
lynch.
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Post Post #2388 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:19 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Jah, I voted Chrono because at that time, he was at 7 votes and Plum was at 8, so I really wasn't expecting that any other wagon was going to rise up in time to save Plum.

Also,
Vote: Battousai
.

I'll try to get more of a case up later, but his most recent post set me off. Batt, you infer in your post that the main reason for lynching kmd last night was that there was no kill last night. Your explanation for this was that the scum were running out of townie looking people to kill, and so they intentionally no-killed because they were afraid that their scum who had townie vibes was going to get lynched because people wondered why he wasn't being NK'ed? I've read this over a couple of times, and the only way that I can seriously interpret this is scum trying to get someone lynched off their kill being blocked. You pretty much say everyone defending kmd is his partner and is protecting him, but why would they go through so much trouble defending someone who got their only vote from a Day 1 VI lynch, especially if we're as close to LyLo as you suggest we are?
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Post Post #2389 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:07 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Fishy, I don't know what to think about your claim. I don't see a reason for claiming that you protected someone else last night as town; now the scum know that they don't have a doctor to worry about, so they can kill without worries of their target being protected. And Batt asking you to claim this makes me think my read of him is correct, since I have no idea what information he expects to get out of it. Information that benefits the town, anyways.

Kunk, why didn't you vote holy? There's no reason not to have your vote on her if she's you're main suspect and she doesn't have any votes on her, now is there?
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Post Post #2390 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:11 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Charlie wrote: Hmm... Rhinox is town for his latest comments. Plum is... not sure. Probably mafia.
Charlie, those are your reasons for voting, correct?
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Post Post #2391 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:30 pm

Post by Plum »

Plum wrote:@Plum: What caused your KMD turnaround? How do you feel about Fishy now?
-And if KMD was a ? for his interpretation of Ythan-Richard, why didn't you put Batt as ? too?

And a few old questions I don't think I figured out.
-Do you remember the “ways the phrasing could have happened by accident” you talked about in post 1927?
-Why did you include the unlikelihood of 2 scum factions into your argument that Amished's post was not a big deal? Why not stop at "scumslips aren't a good tell"? Why use setup speculation to bolster your position?
Honestly? Kmd turnaround: A realization that that direction of scumhunting wasn't working for me and a Townread on Kmd's votecount analysis exercise in scumhunting.
Not putting down Batt for that . . . actually, that is a good point and I don't know why it eluded me. Possibly related to Batt having replaced in almost directly beforehand, but you have a point; it
was
an anomalous interpretation and there might be more to look into there.

- Phrasing happening by accident: "The only reason I suspected that you were just a VI there instead of my opposing scum faction was because I thought I had the other ones pegged." I could easily see that sort of thing being posted quickly with the word-intent being the following: "The only reasons I suspected that you were just a VI instead of an anti-Town faction was because I thought I had the rest of the pegged".

- I included the unlikelihood of two scum factions because I was willing to use correct logical arguments to support a position (that it wasn't a scumslip) that I mostly believed for other, equally valid reasons (I don't believe in scumslips).
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Post Post #2392 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:02 pm

Post by Fishythefish »

Nachomamma8 wrote:Fishy, I don't know what to think about your claim. I don't see a reason for claiming that you protected someone else last night as town; now the scum know that they don't have a doctor to worry about, so they can kill without worries of their target being protected.
My reason for claiming is what you gain when I die. My protect target is very likely town, and I think it's worth everyone knowing that whoever my vote goes to is very likely town.

The disadvantage is just as you say; they scum know that it's at least possible that their kill was missed only through my temporary power. I judged the benefit to outweigh the cost. Batt's comment was more a trigger that made me think about it again, rather than the reason I claimed.

I find myself without much to say. Plum is the best lynch today. If she flips town, I'll have some serious rethinking to do, but I really don't think that's going to happen.
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Post Post #2393 (ISO) » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:47 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Kmd4390 prodded

Deadline is still October 21st
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Post Post #2394 (ISO) » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:01 am

Post by Charlie »

Nachomamma8 wrote:Charlie, those are your reasons for voting, correct?
I was on Plum's slot's case pretty much since the start of the game. And I do believe I've provided some reasoning before this. So, no, the that single statement is not my "reasons for voting".

Speaking of voting.... MORE voting people! And less lurking.

And I don't like how the person holding the most votes is trying to dictate this sort of things, you know.
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Post Post #2395 (ISO) » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:15 am

Post by Battousai »

Class starts in 5, so I'm going to make this brief.

Nacho- read closely... I said that the new information (the 1shot being used) puts a hole in the scum no kill scenerio. Since that was the only difference from yesterday's case, I figured no one would vote Kmd for it like yesterday. That is why I switched. I still believe Kmd is 100% scum, but I have a better chance at lynching Plum who isn't as likely as Kmd, but is still more than likely scum.
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Post Post #2396 (ISO) » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:17 am

Post by Rhinox »

Anyone feel like summing up the case on plum for me?

My thinking is, it seems unlikely chrono and plum are scum together, and all current evidence points to only 1 faction. Reasoning is, chrono seemed to have a very powerful role ability that evidence points to as being unused - so surely scum would try to swing the lynch to the less valuable scum, yes? Can't think of a scum role more powerful than an extra kill, so... I suppose there are some possibilities for which chrono's ability was used, and if it was, that would make him the preferential bussing target with 2 scums on the chopping block. There's no evidence of it being used though.

Looking at the final vote count of the day, there are 2 groups -

1)those voting chrono {Jahudo, Locke Lamora, Rhinox, Nachomamma8, kmd4390, holycon, Fishythefish}

and 2)those voting elsewhere {Ythan, esurispiritus, kunkstar7, Battosuai, Charlie, Plum}

Not sure how many scum left, I'd say at least 3 and no more than 5, I can only fit nacho and holy as possible scum out of the bussing group. Out of the other group, there are a whole bunch of maybees, where at least 1 and maybe more is scum. I'd say there is a high probability of scum in a group of {batt, charlie, and plum}. Ythan makes me nervous with all those votes. kunk replaced amished who I initially had a town read on. I only started losing my town read as amished became less active, but thats consistent with his eventual replacing out, so the town read stands and carries over to kunk. esuris started very strong and has seemed pro-town in every post.

I think the best chance of hitting scum today is

VOTE: holy

Its going to be tougher to pick scum out of the second group, I think.
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Post Post #2397 (ISO) » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:48 am

Post by Rhinox »

Batt, there's still some holes in your argument for why scum would choose to no kill.

Firstly, If jahudo and kmd really are the only 2 players every feels is town, then town-jahudo could have been safely killed and no one would have suspected hyposcum-kmd for it anymore today. In fact, Jah is more pro-town looking than kmd AND has more votes, so I would say he is a higher priority scum nk than kmd. So unless jah and kmd are both scum, your argument doesn't make any sense.

Secondly, you're assuming that scum would only have motivation to kill the towniest looking town players. I could see me or Ythan and high priority scum nk choices for the chance of getting extra votes under scum control, unless we're both scum too.

Thridly is the power of wifom. Leaving players alive that you think should have been nked by now makes town suspect them more. I suspect Ythan more because he hasn't been nked, but I can't lynch him for that.

Fourthly, intentionally no-killing possibly gives us an extra lynch we wouldn't have otherwise had.

Fifthly, you ignored possibilities of the kill being prevented by roles we are not yet aware of.

So, with those points in mind, there really is no reason to believe that at this point of the game, scum would intentionally choose to no kill, making it a horrible argument to use as a final push to convince everyone to vote KMD, as you did here.
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Post Post #2398 (ISO) » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:13 am

Post by Jahudo »

Rhinox, the problem I see with holycon is that she's spent so much time in V/LA (which I have to believe is legitimate V/LA) that her lack of scumhunting and lateness in joining wagons close to deadline can't be as reliable a point as it normally could. How do you see holycon's vote as a possible bus? Take into account that she was suspicious of Chrono earlier in the game. Does that time frame look like possible distancing too?

I have a neutral stance on holycon because I don't think we've seen the "real her" in this game very much.
Rhinox wrote:chrono seemed to have a very powerful role ability that evidence points to as being unused
What do you mean? The only type of evidence I can think of is a tracker/watcher claim, like a watcher who saw no one target someone who got killed.

-------------------------
-------------------------

Plum, I think I get the gist of your Charlie case from your ISO. I assume you stopped trusting him
because
you stopped trusting KMD?

- He has a tendency to slip under the radar.
- He uses jokes to avoid answering questions and getting into serious discussion early.
- He tried to discredit Twomz by suggesting scum inventor when in reality that is a less common alternative to being town inventor.
- He doesn't commit to his stance on Richard's claim even though he tries to discredit that too.
- The post with his multiple FoS's doesn't lead anywhere.
- Something about how adamantly he argued Michel was town. (@PLUM: What was the specifics on that one?)
- He flip-flops on SSBF.

@Plum: Do you think Charlie kept doing those first two points after you first addressed them? I already don't believe its a big deal.
* Points 3 & 4 are sideways attacks that look suspicious, but the discrediting part is taking a stance and making a commitment. He didn't look for the popular town opinion before giving his own.
* There is something strange going on in point 5 and the few posts of his that follow it. I have to look more at how he came to that post in order to see if its realistic as town or not.
* Point 6, ?
* Point 7 is something Chrono did... sheep on the issue of SSBF. But Plum sheeped on the issue of Fishy, then flopped. Is that not comparable to what Charlie did? Trust your town read's judgement?

So if you liked this case, and didn't like the top wagon (Ani), why didn't you rally people to yours or be more pro-active in questioning Charlie? You looked comfortable making little posts after your Charlie vote, up until when you decided to trust KMD (and thus trust Charlie). And I don't think V/LA stopped you. This is a concern for me.
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Post Post #2399 (ISO) » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:01 am

Post by Rhinox »

jahudo wrote:Rhinox, the problem I see with holycon is that she's spent so much time in V/LA (which I have to believe is legitimate V/LA) that her lack of scumhunting and lateness in joining wagons close to deadline can't be as reliable a point as it normally could. How do you see holycon's vote as a possible bus? Take into account that she was suspicious of Chrono earlier in the game. Does that time frame look like possible distancing too?

I have a neutral stance on holycon because I don't think we've seen the "real her" in this game very much.
Its mostly a PoE thing. There's got to be at least 1 scum voting chrono, and of the list of players voting choro, the only ones I can imagine as scum are holy or nacho. You can fishy are probtown. kmd and locke I'm less sure of, but still leaning town. I could go either way between nacho and holy, but I chose holy this time because nacho seems to be attempting more input as of late.
jahudo wrote:What do you mean? The only type of evidence I can think of is a tracker/watcher claim, like a watcher who saw no one target someone who got killed.
Not sure what you're asking here. Chrono's flip implies he had a 1-shot kill, and there aren't any unaccounted for extra kills out there, so I inferred that chrono didn't use his ability and would make plum the preferential bus yesterday if both were scum.

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