Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[silverbullet999]

Damn it I wanted to win a prize...

[PranaDevil]

Okay, so Jack's playstyle is scummy. So what we're suggesting is that we have no clue whether he's scum or town either way, because he's useless and worthless to the town regardless? Awesome, so either we lynch him and potentially lynch town, or we leave him alive and potentially leave scum alive. Excellent. We want him left alive at endgame because?

And that still doesn't explain Pacman, nor why horrordude has sworn Jack's town despite the knowledge that Jack plays crap whether he's town or scum.

[Jack]

gosh. When I'm scum I play pro town (or super-lurk). silver does get a prize.

[LimMePls]

We really need some direction in this game, I feel completely disinterested. I'll be perfectly honest, I have very little motivation for this game. I only replaced in because Seraph PM'd me and asked me to, and the week+ long night has killed all my enthusiasm.

To top it off, it seems like damn near everyone is just lurking hardcore.

I'm gonna start from page 1 and see if I can get something going.

[Jack]

We should just lynch a2rudeboy. pacman possibly a 2nd. Who did he replace?

[curiouskarmadog]

so is what I am hearing is jack is just a poor player?

I wouldn't say "poor" so much as chaotic/idiosyncratic.

you feel like his actions in this games are good?....is chaotic antitown?

[curiouskarmadog]

We've played together like 4 times ckd : (

exactly why I am voting you....never seen this before...also, I have posted like that (reason you FOSed) before, so you should know that.

[PranaDevil]

I think, CKD, that they're saying this is his normal playstyle when he's town... and he, himself, has said he only plays pro-town when he's scum... so if that is indeed the case, his meta becomes see through and pointless because everyone who plays with him and knows this can tell in an instant when he's scum.

Here's an idea Jack, how's about playing to your win condition and actually scum hunting, rather than playing to your meta? If you're town, try playing the game and being useful for once.

[curiouskarmadog]

so we should just ignore him and hope he goes away? need to change my playstyle then.

[PranaDevil]

I'm pretty much in agreement with you on how stupid it is. "Jack always plays anti-town, so lynching him is pointless" is what I'm getting from that... isn't that just asking to lose the game?

[LimMePls]

Ok, I've just completed a full (ok, maybe some skimming involved) re-read, I'm pulling out interesting points and commenting on them. Please answer any questions directed at you (via @:your-name).

Okay... what the smeg?

Esp, I have no clue where you're going with your stuff, but it's unnerving me hugely. I'm not voting you now for two reasons:

1 - to make sure that my vote doesn't add to any kind of quick lynch, but let it be known I would be happy with Esp's lynch.

2 - I still feel Jack is somewhat scummy too, and now not just because he seems to be fishing for a post restriction of some kind. But also because it feels like Jack and Esp are backing each other up rather strangely considering nobody else can see the reason from either.

I don't want to come over as a total dumbass in my first proper game.

Don't worry, you will. (And what do you mean my games weren't proper games? Smeg head!)

@Prana: Why were you saying you didn't want to vote because you didn't want to "add to any kind of a quick lynch"? When was the last time you saw a quick lynch in a Large game? Why is this something to be afraid of? Also, why would a quick lynch of someone who you "would be happy with" be a bad thing? I recognize that you sort of answered this here, but I don't find your answer satisfactory, and I wasn't in the game to press you on the issue.

Because for some reason we are the only smart people in the town at the moment.

Town hunting. Great thing to do in a large game as confirmed towns are really powerful when you are looking at interactions later on that revolve around people that are still alive. (i.e. When you have no flip info on the person.)

Up until I get reason to believe he isn't town.

He isn't. But every rvs wagon needs a random counter wagon.

Because the RVS is about placing votes to get reactions. If you play catious from the start the game can get stagnant quickly.

Only buddying if one of us is scum.

Not quite sure. I would say there is one on my wagon and the rest are still random or no votes and are just riding this out for now. I have already said that scum don't like taking risks early, at least they usually don't.

More heavy with sarcasm than when a teenager talks with their parents.

Posts like this make me think Esp-Jack isn't a likely scum team. Why would scum buddy to each other so closely D1, especially when one of them is under a fair amount of suspicion? I'd only expect this from very good scum players who are going for a gambit (ie. "but why would I buddy my partner so obviously") and espy doesn't strike me as good enough to try that gambit. At first, since Esp's flip had a scum team name in it, I thought this doesn't mean Jack isn't scum. However, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there might just be a single mafia in this game (more on this below). Still something to keep in mind.

How interesting. I have CKD's role as well, but with Pomegranate.

okay...

I'm tempted to believe both of these sets of claims so far. But. I would also hazard a guess that one side of each is mafia else it is looking like massclaim would break the game. I (think I) know seraphim better than that.

I understand that this could open a Pandora's box of WIFOM, but I think Espeonage's reaction to the CKD and Zwet claims is interesting. He is either hinting that the scum are in fact part of the neighborhoods, or he is just sowing suspicion. I'm betting on the latter.

This post from DemonHybrid is win.

Regarding the claims, I'm not entirely sure I believe we have two pairs of joint vigs out there. That would be three kills a night, meaning in the span of two days we could be 8 town down and that's it, pretty much game over. If it turns out they ARE both pro-town, then you've basically told the scum where to begin their targetting (the second claim was even stupider because you could have flown well under the radar with that one).

You say that if there are two vig groups there would be 3 kills a night. How would you know there aren't two mafia groups? Are 1 mafia group Large games normal? I haven't seen one yet.

If we don't lynch curiouskarmadog, SnakePlissken I want you to Watch one of the four claimed neighbor-vigs.

@Jack: This is what I was talking about early this game day. This was on D1 and HD pointed this post out, and then there was a bunch of discussion between HD/Prana/Looker/Vollkan/(others I may be forgetting) on what pointing out the breadcrumb said about alignments. So "Snake-Watcher" was clearly established D1, and he is still breathing. Seems really strange to me.

Okay... thinking things over now I've read what's been said, and here's how I stand:

I accept Jack's been making a play, it's a crappy play by all rights, but checking over it, I will agree it doesn't make him scummy by that alone (that's not to say he isn't scum, but now Vollkan has pointed out it's a gambit I can see where it is coming from, as I do like strange gambits in the early play as well). So I'll buy Jack as town for the time being.

Esp I'm less happy about, it's possible he's pulling another gambit, but it sort of feels like he may have tried tagging onto Jack's gambit to gain points from him, but I'll leave him for now.

The 4 vig-likes... there's a chance one is scum, but if the role name does state how many shots they have or whatever, then holding off announcing it is worthwhile (and I'd advise any docs randomly pick one of them to protect just to be safe), though I would hope people realize where I was coming from with wanting to find out the role name (namely if the role name states there is two of them, rather then one, the claim wasn't needed anyway).

I still don't like that there was a claim, but unlike Vezo I can see that announcing 4 scum as joint vigs would be a terrible play as it only needs two of them to get offed to prove that the rest have to be scum (and if we lynched one today then it wouldn't take long for all 4 to go down). So at best one of those 4 is scum. (I actually think them all being town would be overpowered for the town too, so I feel it's more inclined to be one as scum, or even the second group tagging onto the original claim, as I still stand by that 3 kills a night could destroy the town before the town actually get a chance to truly scum hunt).

Anyway, at the moment Vezo has been bugging me but I can't quite put my finger on it just yet. Need to look over him closer in the next day or two.

For the moment though.

unvote

Will have a quick look over later if I have chance to see if anything stands out.

This is the second time on D1 (that I was counting anyway) where you express a negative view of Esp, but then let it fall away. To make it worse you unvote without voting. I'm not a fan of that, especially in a post where you admit to having suspects. "Esp I'm less happy about". Furthermore, towards the end of D1 you took a pretty clear stance for an Esp lynch once the NC lynch was taking off. I'd like you to elaborate more on all of this please.

@Prana: If Esp is behaving scummy why "leave him for now".

So we have Esp, Looker, and SS for scum so far. One or two more and I'd say we have the entire team

@HD: Same question to you that I put to Prana. This as D1 of a large game. How did you come to the conclusoin there is just one team?

Looker is obv. town, he's pushing people, and pointing out things that need pointing out.

This needs more explaining too. Explain how Looker was "pushing people" because that was not the read I was getting, and explain how pointing out Snake's Watcher claim was good.

@Vollkan: in this post you finally put up your point board. You mentioned earlier in the thread that people get + points for scummy actions and - points for townie actions. How come no one had earned any - points after a full day? You even commented "good posting" after some people's play.

Okay, thanks to the latest interaction... CD, your response there was scummy as hell, and I wont bother repeating the same points as LMP has done, however I think I will need to go have a further look at your posts. If there was an up to date vote count I might vote you at this stage. Hopefully we'll get one by the time I've done my ISO, which will come as soon as I have enough free time in one sitting to do so.

My skin is crawling after this post.

QFT

Hold on... you say how could a vanilla townie know there are scum "teams" instead of a scum team?

I agree, how "could" a VT know that? Surely that is admitting you're not a VT, and instead admitting you know there's two scum teams by accident? The only way I can see you knowing there is two scum teams come day 2 is if you're scum, and you rolecopped the opposing scum team (This happened in a game I modded elsewhere, as Snake will attest to, in fact both scum rolecops rolecopped the opposing team).

So, you're not a VT, and there's no possible town power role that I can imagine allowing you to know there's more than a single scum team out there, so I can only come to the conclusion that you are, as I feel, a scum rolecop (Or scum have a rolecop and you know the results. I know some mods allow day talk too, so no clue if that's the case here, though I know it's not the norm on this site).

This is interesting, considering that on D1 you said "scum team" when there is no way you should have known that there weren't 2 teams, but here you imply that it is scummy for him to say "scum teams" because he shouldn't know that it isn't "team". And, based on the number of kills per night, I'm actually coming to the conclusion that it is a single scum team. Which is the way you put it back on D1.

Snake, did you get a new result?....did you actually watch me or track me?

if you did track me, the question still stands...why did you bother tracking me what did you hope to find?

Right my now correct result is that no one visited you last night. I'm a watcher.

Also, why are being so jittery over being tracked? You outed your kill yourself? Why you so worried I watched you? Something to hide? I am watching everyone in turn until I die to try and find scum. That's the idea isn't it?

This post comes from noob town or genius scum. Given the evidence, I'm going with town-Snake for now. I still find think a claimed watcher living to D3 is pretty remarkable. Also, since you've lived this long and your claim is outed anyways:

@Snake: Who did you watch N1? I assume you got a null response?

Unvote
Vote: PranaDevil

I advise everyone else do the same. He's scum.

I do want to make one other observation. CKD's claim D1 could be a gambit. I dunno what I'd put the odds at, but it's entirely possible he made the claim knowing that he was going to refuse to kill with his partner, his partner would die N1, and then he'd get the kill N2, which is what he claimed the scum could be trying to do. And seeing how events played out (exactly this way, except its his partner dead, not him) we should by no means be calling CKD confirmed town. The scum could also be trying to frame him, as DH pointed out D2, and I'd put his odds at being town around 80% or so, but I don't think anyone should be calling him confirmed.

[SnakePlissken]

I already breadcrumbed it I watched Jack to a null response.

[PranaDevil]

@Prana: Why were you saying you didn't want to vote because you didn't want to "add to any kind of a quick lynch"? When was the last time you saw a quick lynch in a Large game? Why is this something to be afraid of? Also, why would a quick lynch of someone who you "would be happy with" be a bad thing? I recognize that you sort of answered this here, but I don't find your answer satisfactory, and I wasn't in the game to press you on the issue.

Pretty much what I said there, you think I'm going to give a different answer later on? I told you the straight answer there, and that IS the answer you're getting, if you don't like it, I suppose it's tough luck.

As far as why it would be a bad thing though... ANY quick lynch is a bad thing. Discussion is paramount, and I'm honestly shocked I would need to point that out on this site. Over on sites where Mafia is a side game? Yeah, I can understand that, but here?

You say that if there are two vig groups there would be 3 kills a night. How would you know there aren't two mafia groups? Are 1 mafia group Large games normal? I haven't seen one yet.

Considering the set up, which was pretty much revealed to us early on thanks to piss poor claiming, it makes less sense for two scum teams. But that becomes mod WIFOM stuff etc. I'm not used to large normals in all honesty, so I've no idea if one scum team or two is normal, but I always felt one scum team WAS the norm regardless outside of themed games. Am I wrong on that assumption?

This is the second time on D1 (that I was counting anyway) where you express a negative view of Esp, but then let it fall away. To make it worse you unvote without voting. I'm not a fan of that, especially in a post where you admit to having suspects. "Esp I'm less happy about". Furthermore, towards the end of D1 you took a pretty clear stance for an Esp lynch once the NC lynch was taking off. I'd like you to elaborate more on all of this please.

@Prana: If Esp is behaving scummy why "leave him for now".

How did I "let it fall away"? I was pushing Esp pretty much non-stop all day 1 in fact. Seriously, go check it over, I was massively pissed off when he wasn't the day 1 lynch. How is that me letting it "fall away"? What you're saying doesn't match up with the facts.

As for the unvote, you'll also note that I wanted to check through the thread as well. I feel leaving a vote on someone at a point you want to check things over to be bad play. If you're not 100% that the vote is on the right person at that point in time, then you should move it, I moved it off entirely, prior to checking through the thread. How is this scummy? Being "overly cautious" is somehow scummy now?

Looker is obv. town, he's pushing people, and pointing out things that need pointing out.

This needs more explaining too. Explain how Looker was "pushing people" because that was not the read I was getting, and explain how pointing out Snake's Watcher claim was good.

'scuse me? I am now not going to ask you something, I'm going to demand it. Go and tell me where I said pointing out Snake's watcher claim was good.

I repeat, I am demanding you do that, because that's not just a misrep, it's a blatant misrep to a massive degree designed to somehow make me seem worse for it.

As for the rest, please to be paying attention to what I is saying.

Otherwise known as read the next post I made which responded to CKD asking me the same damned thing for crying out loud - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2509612

@Vollkan: in this post you finally put up your point board. You mentioned earlier in the thread that people get + points for scummy actions and - points for townie actions. How come no one had earned any - points after a full day? You even commented "good posting" after some people's play.

Okay, thanks to the latest interaction... CD, your response there was scummy as hell, and I wont bother repeating the same points as LMP has done, however I think I will need to go have a further look at your posts. If there was an up to date vote count I might vote you at this stage. Hopefully we'll get one by the time I've done my ISO, which will come as soon as I have enough free time in one sitting to do so.

My skin is crawling after this post.

QFT

If you wish to ever actually explain that one, please do so.

This is interesting, considering that on D1 you said "scum team" when there is no way you should have known that there weren't 2 teams, but here you imply that it is scummy for him to say "scum teams" because he shouldn't know that it isn't "team". And, based on the number of kills per night, I'm actually coming to the conclusion that it is a single scum team. Which is the way you put it back on D1.

Point. Make it.

Unvote
Vote: PranaDevil

I advise everyone else do the same. He's scum.

If you ever want to give a reason for that one, feel free.

[evilpacman18]

We should just lynch a2rudeboy. pacman possibly a 2nd. Who did he replace?

Lol why is this? Cuz you don't like my case?

[a2rudeboy]

v/la until Monday... I has mono, and need the recovery time.

Feel better, a2.

[PranaDevil]

We should just lynch a2rudeboy. pacman possibly a 2nd. Who did he replace?

Lol why is this? Cuz you don't like my case?

What case? You've not made one yet.

[Jack]

he made one on vollkan?

[PranaDevil]

Pushing for a policy lynch =/= a case.

[Jack]

So you have no case on me

[Pomegranate]

Jack isn't today's lynch. Whether he's a lynch maybe tomorrow, or sometime afterward is up for debate.

[Pomegranate]

V/LA until Sunday morning.

V/LA party at the hotel! Noted.

[silverbullet999]

Lynch made a big post so he must be town

[RedCoyote]

Everytime I want to do a vote count y'all post all the way to the bottom of the page.

Vote Count

silverbullet999(0) -

Jack(4)

- a2rudeboy, PranaDevil, curiouskarmadog, SnakePlissken
evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -
horrordude0215(0) -

vollkan(1)

- evilpacman18

a2rudeboy(1)

- Jack
Pomegranate(0) -
SnakePlissken(0) -

PranaDevil(1)

- LynchMePls

Not Voting(4)

- vollkan, Pomegranate, horrordude0215, silverbullet999

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch

Deadline: November 1st, 2010, 2:00 AM, Central Standard Time

[silverbullet999]

I also am apparently not only voting.. but have quite literally been vanished into a ghost?

Yes, you are very sneaky like that. Fixed.

[silverbullet999]

not only not*