/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[Porochaz]

Ive been here regularly for the past couple of game days. I had nothing to comment on.

Putting it to you straight, weak doc and goon cop are fairly strong info roles, why would there be a hider as well to give the town yet more info, I am also trying to work out exactly what balanced game you are playing in with 3 info roles, (weak doc, is a lot more powerful than you make out. For example see the Pick Your Poison Games - specifically 2 or 3) and a town roleblocker. Against a Mafia Rolecop/Mafia Goon/Mafia ???.

[boberz]

Ill claim VT as well even though not nominated:

Locke last please.

---

I certainly think it is one of you two definately I will have a think about balance in the morning when I am less dead.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #1 of Day 7

Porochaz (1) <-~ MagnaofIllusion

Not voting (3) <-~ boberz, Locke Lamora, Porochaz

4 living; 3 will do it.

Deadline:

Thursday, October 22nd at 12:00 P.M. EST

[Incognito]

Bump. And prodding Locke Lamora.

[boberz]

Magna's claim did feel like he had spent a day making it up, especially as he changed the order of claim to do it.

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry for the absence, waiting for internet to get installed in my new house and thus having to grab internet access elsewhere when I can.

I'm a VT too. Really not sure about the hider claim. Will have to think about Magna's claimed actions and decide how legit it sounds.

[Locke Lamora]

Magna, if you hid behind Farside N2 and hence knew she was town, why did you say this on your D3 analysis?:

farside appears in more suspicious places based on my analysis than I would have expected given my read. I’ll have to re-ISO her with a fresh set of eyes.

[boberz]

I have an answer to that but Ill hold out. Is that the only hole you found Locke?

[Incognito]

MagnaofIllusion and Porochaz have been prodded.

[Porochaz]

Sorry, Im just waiting at the moment. I want a no lynch tonight by the way guys.

[boberz]

bored.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prod noted – work had been a bitch the last two Days and I was so tired last night I figured responding with a fresh mind would be best.

Putting it to you straight, weak doc and goon cop are fairly strong info roles, why would there be a hider as well to give the town yet more info, I am also trying to work out exactly what balanced game you are playing in with 3 info roles, (weak doc, is a lot more powerful than you make out. For example see the Pick Your Poison Games - specifically 2 or 3) and a town roleblocker. Against a Mafia Rolecop/Mafia Goon/Mafia ???.

Feel free to knock yourself out trying to attack my role. I’m not going to try to defend the set-up. It’s not something I can do as I didn’t create it. I will say that Weak Doc is not nearly the strong information role that you attempt to portray it as.

Your response here is why I’m happy with my vote. Your only line of thought involves Set-up speculation. You’ve had countless days to make a case as to why I’m scum. You’ve alluded that you think I am yesterday. But still nothing concrete in the way of accusations. Heck, you didn't even bother to go to the trouble of looking at my ISO to see if my claim matched my play. It's further reason why, despite your similar VC positions and interactions, I think Locke is Town and you are the last scum. He's at least engaged in trying to figure out where he stands. You pretty much have sat on your butt all game. Locke thinks it is a sign of unengaged Town. I think it is a sign of scum who can't bother to fake scum-hunting.

Magna, if you hid behind Farside N2 and hence knew she was town, why did you say this on your D3 analysis?

I would think, in light of my claim, that this would be pretty obvious. Let’s look again at the quote in question.

farside appears in more suspicious places based on my analysis than I would have expected given my read

.

I’ll have to re-ISO her with a fresh set of eyes.

The bolded portion is pretty clear – I was surprised at farside appearing where she did in the VC analysis because I had a read that says she is confirmed Town. I certainly didn’t want to tip my hand that I she was clear in my eyes and her positions in the VC analysis do look scummy.

The italicized portion should also be a pretty big clue – why do you think I never re-ISOed her? Because I didn’t need to with my successful hide. I had to give the impression that I suspected her based on her placement in the analysis but never did.

This is also why after Night 4 my ISO 39 where I lay out my suspicions I skirt around Jack as much as possible despite gunning hard for him the Day before.

In summary

– I’m not going to repeat my whole case that I made on Poro. Read my ISO. His position in the VCs is very suspect. His interactions (or lack thereof) with scum are not positive. He hasn’t scum-hunted the entire game but has instead slid by on explanations that ‘he’s not engaged’.

[Porochaz]

I like your case in your above post. It completely ignores the fact that invitational was chosen as a balanced game and regardless of how strong an info role weak doc is, its still pretty much one sided. I don't need to view the iso to think your claim was bullshit. Your defence on the hole Locke found is truly terrible. Fact is your pissed off that I havent done much this game, yet I have seen straight through your terrible claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I like your case in your above post. It completely ignores the fact that invitational was chosen as a balanced game and regardless of how strong an info role weak doc is, its still pretty much one sided. I don't need to view the iso to think your claim was bullshit. Your defence on the hole Locke found is truly terrible. Fact is your pissed off that I havent done much this game, yet I have seen straight through your terrible claim.

Ummm what?

1. I’d really like to know how exactly you know the set-up is one-sided. How exactly do you know the set-up again and thus know it is unbalanced?

2. Rhetoric for the sake of it - ‘claim is bullshit’ and defence is ‘terrible’. If you would like to explain how it is ‘terrible’ feel free. Otherwise go back to not contributing like you have done the entirety of the game. The irony that your sig boast how you are such a prolific poster here on MS but have done zilch is not lost on me.

3. I’m pissed? That’s funny. Anything that makes you feel better about yourself.

@Locke and boberz – Anytime the two of you would like to chime in would be great.

[boberz]

I agree with you on the quote locke found. I still think you could well be scum. I am swaying towards a nolynch

[Porochaz]

A no lynch would be best today.

vote no lynch

1 and 2 tie into each other, trying to balance 3 investigative roles would be a nightmare. An even night hider, while fits into a "normal" setup (in my view), doesn't fit into the rest of the setup. Im going to assume that the last mafia is a goon. (A goon cop by my eyes is still oddly specific) However let me run a game, MoI, I assume you dont have much modding experience but how would you balance this game? Take the exact setup revealed, and add an even night hider and 2 VT's, now how do you make scum balanced?

I don't think you can. Putting a goon in would be to weak, putting a godfather in would mean if he was cop immune then we would have 2 people the goon cop couldnt investigate, if he was nk immune then A. goon cop would still not make sense and B. be totally pointless as there are no other town killing roles. So how would you do it? Mafia Doctor? Then you have the ol' cop-doc routine except in reverse. And this is why you claim is terrible.

Love how your telling me not to contribute because Im upsetting your easy lynch. Fact is I havent contributed much, Ive given excuses etc. Im not going to apologise for it again. I am a profilic poster on site, I have been sucky recently in a large amount of my games. Don't feel victimised.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1 and 2 tie into each other, trying to balance 3 investigative roles would be a nightmare. An even night hider, while fits into a "normal" setup (in my view), doesn't fit into the rest of the setup.

Im going to assume that the last mafia is a goon.

(A goon cop by my eyes is still oddly specific) However let me run a game, MoI, I assume you dont have much modding experience but how would you balance this game? Take the exact setup revealed, and add an even night hider and 2 VT's, now how do you make scum balanced?

Emphasis added … just why are you assuming the last Mafian is simply a Goon? From the Mafia side that would make two Goons and a Daycop who serves as a pseudo Godfather. Doesn't seem like a likely distribution based on Mafia teams I have seen.

Your assumption about my experience is rather faulty. I played for two years on another site before joining MS with 4 dedicated games GMed and countless set-ups reviewed. But given I’m guessing you just looked at my join date I can’t expect you to know any better.

I don't think you can. Putting a goon in would be to weak, putting a godfather in would mean if he was cop immune then we would have 2 people the goon cop couldnt investigate, if he was nk immune then A. goon cop would still not make sense and B. be totally pointless as there are no other town killing roles. So how would you do it? Mafia Doctor? Then you have the ol' cop-doc routine except in reverse. And this is why you claim is terrible.

The only thing you can come up with are a Godfather or Doctor? Really? My whole concern with claiming and then no lynching yesterday was predicated on my suspicion that the last Mafia would be either a Roleblocker or Jailkeeper. If not that a Redirector / Busdriver also is something I considered as possible. I’m not going to get into any of the more obscure possibilities given this is a Normal set-up.

But let’s discuss. What we know –

Town – Roleblocker, Goon Cop, Weak Doc, Even Night Hider, VTs
Mafia – Daycop and Goon.

If the last Mafia isn’t a Goon then the having three weak information roles makes for a swingy but balanced game IMO (with the caveot of not knowing what the third Mafia role is, of course). The Cop only actually can detect 1 of the 3 Mafians. The Doc and Hider can detect all of them but dies for his efforts. So you have a very ineffective Cop and two fragile informational / protection roles. As I type this I think either a Jailkeeper or Redirector makes solid sense.

But this is exactly what you want … a focus on anything but scum-hunting.

Love how your telling me not to contribute because Im upsetting your easy lynch. Fact is I havent contributed much, Ive given excuses etc. Im not going to apologise for it again. I am a profilic poster on site, I have been sucky recently in a large amount of my games. Don't feel victimised.

Really .. this is classic. You’ve slid by this entire game not contributing any analysis or anything closely resembling scum-hunting. The closest you came to actually accusing someone was your feeling that farside ‘wasn’t right’. Reading back you had the same tone of indignation with her that you have now. It is as if you feel it isn’t fair that you are being attacked for your poor play and are lashing out with rhetoric and assertions you aren’t willing to back.

I’ll wait for Locke and boberz to weigh in. Continue to howl and rage as you wish.

[Incognito]

Locke Lamora has been prodded.

[boberz]

Cheers

[Locke Lamora]

Hi everyone, had a bit of a fiasco with my internet reconnection in my new place. I have been assured it'll be done by Monday, so I'll be back up to full access then.

[Incognito]

Bumping again. Reminder that your deadline is on Thursday of this week.

[boberz]

I also think a no lynch is best...

Are we missing anything glaring?

[Porochaz]

Nope beyond waiting for Locke.

I want to address MoI's points before we go though.

I guess the main one is the indignation thing. I feel it totally appropriate that I get attacked for any poor play in the past in this game. Its not my (long term) meta and it's certainly something I hate. So yes attack me for it all you want but when it comes down to it, does it make me scum? No. I don't feel I'm lashing out at you either, I am attacking your poor claim. Now I understand given the past 27 and a half pages you wouldn't know what form my attacks come in but this is it. I don't care what you did or who you voted for in the past 27 pages, to go back through and look through your post history would take up a load of my time, would be largely ignored and in the end would dilute my main point. I am looking at cold hard facts here and no matter how you put it, it still looks wrong and Im hoping the others agree with me.

In regards to the rest of your post, Ive said all I want. I did "just look at your join date" and I had a quick look to see if there were any modded games here on ms (as other sites 99 times out of a hundred mean absolutely nothing. Your inexperience in normal games is showing though, as you will see:

I spent some time working on revised Normal guidelines yesterday, and after some feedback from zoraster I'm posting the current version for review by everyone. These are not entirely complete (the whitelist/blacklist isn't settled, for one thing), but reflect my current thoughts on normal policy, taking into account zoraster's proposal, Thesp's threads on roles in normal games, and Ythill's thread on normal flavor.

Normal Game Rules

Flavor:

In Newbie Games, only Mafia flavor is allowed, and Role PMs should follow the standard set by the List Mod.
In Open, Mini Normal, and Large Normal games, flavor is allowed provided these rules are followed:

• All flavor should be public; flavor is not allowed in Role PMs. Role names should be standard, or non-flavored if original.
• Flavor should have no bearing on the game - it should be possible for a player to read only the role reveals posted with the death scene and gain all information needed to play. This information should be formatted to stand out from the flavor.
  
• Flavor not based on Mafia must be entirely original. Games based on books, moves, video games, sports, real people, or any other source material are classified as Theme Games.

Setup:

• Closed
  Normal Games should satisfy the following rules:
• The game should have at least one Mafia group (of at least two members). A second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group. There should be no more than two anti-town groups, and no more than one Serial Killer.
• The game must contain at least one Vanilla Townie (allowed names include: Townie, Vanilla Townie, Innocent Townsperson, Citizen). A sample Role PM for the Vanilla Townie must be included in the rules post.
• Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
  • Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
  • Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
  • Anything resolving with a random element.
  • Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
  • Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
  • Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
  • Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).
• Roles which are explicitly Normal include: Cop (Sane, Insane, Naive, Paranoid - should either explicitly confirm Sane or explicitly leave Sanity unconfirmed: "You are a Cop of unconfirmed Sanity"), Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Miller (self-aware), Bodyguard, Role Cop, Double Voter, Macho Cop, Hider, Neighbor, Serial Killer, Traitor, Mafia Godfather (Investigation Immune and/or Nightkill Immune), Mafia-aligned versions of above roles, Backup versions, X-shot versions, Even/Odd-night versions, Non-consecutive-night versions. (
  zoraster suggests having a subsection on the wiki for each whitelisted role that defines a "standard" for that role. For example, a normal Doctor is sane and can't self-protect.
  )

Jailkeeper is stupidly strong for scum to have. Redirector and Bus Driver shouldnt be involved and we have has no evidence of that to the contrary. Town Roleblocker becomes a problem when considering both scum roleblocker and scum jailkeeper, who resolves first and how does that effect balance? Also whats the point in having a goon cop when he can only detect one person? 6 townie's, 3 PR's and 3 Mafia, half the town being vanilla sounds good.

[Locke Lamora]

Magna: I'm guessing you didn't, but did you attempt to leave any stronger indicator that you'd hid behind Farside/Jack, confirming them as innocent? Given your D3 comment about Farside in particular, had you been killed N3, it wouldn't exactly have been the most obvious breadcrumb that you'd hid behind Farside.

Poro: no lynch is pointless. From your perspective, either Magna or myself is scum. Either one of us would just kill Boberz, and we'd be in exactly the same situation except we'd have one less confirmed townie voting.

Boberz: the same as above. You're going to die if we get to night.

[Porochaz]

Considering Ive been after farside most of the game I wouldnt say its as clear cut as that, every single person is still under suspicion, as it should be from everyones p.o.v. I wouldn't be voting straight away after the kill. I think scums nk could potentially be very telling.