Newbie 1022 - Game Over

[Leech]

This should be an interesting game. I haven't started one on this note before:

Vote: drmyshottyizsik

This vote is not, in the least bit, random. This guy has a meta for intentionally being an idiot in all of his games. I policy lynched him the last time I played with him. My vote will stay here for a very, very long time. How do you guys feel about policy lynches?

To answer Vox's question: I have 10 completed games on this forum, and countless games on others. I've also played a few face-to-face games, as well as one over skype hosted on a different forum. You can find any of my completed games in my wiki.

[Leech]

Shotty is a liability for whatever side he plays on. He prides himself on being a VI, he's self-hammered as town in LyLo situation, he's outed his partner as scum, and he's probably in about 15 games at the moment as well. He is easily the worst player I've ever seen on this site. That's not because he's just "bad" it's because he doesn't care enough to try, and plays against his win condition in every single game.

If the person is acting anti town or idiotic I would consider a lynch even if I am certain they are town.

As I said, I've policy lynched shotty before, for acting in that manner. The fact that he's known to self hammer in LyLo as town, shows that we really lose nothing in a Shotty lynch at any point of the game.

[Leech]

So Leech, are you seriously keeping your vote over shotty for a 'very very long time'? What if he gets the usual VI luck and get a PR? Do we still lynch him then? Are there any situations when you might want to change your vote?

Do you have a better suggestion for my vote? At the moment I could only swap it for a RVS vote, which would serve less of a purpose. Pretty much, if I feel strongly that someone is scum I'll change my vote. If I don't, it remains on Shotty. Also, even if he has a PR, he still has cost the town the game by self-hammering in LyLo. I do not want him to get that far, regardless of his alignment. Sure, if he shows signs of actually playing this game, I'll change my tune. However, there is no evidence that will be the case. I figure it's best to start this now, so there's no surprises when I undoubtedly push for it later.

[Leech]

I didn't realise he was that bad. So is your vote a policy lynch against Shotty in particular, rather than a policy lynch against VIs in general?

It's against Shotty. I have no problem with VI's as most of them will eventually learn. This guy has played almost 40 games on this site, and he hasn't.

A policy lynch I agree with is "Lynch all liars" because townies have no reason to lie.

That is only true in newbie games, just so you know. There are setups where it makes perfect sense for townies to lie. In fact, one of the most effective gambits in this game is based on a lie. There are situations that call for it, so I'd restrict that specifically to newbie games.

While I do agree that past performances are a good way to determine someones play style it does no one any good to push for a lynch without hearing a post from the person in question.

First off, I'm not pushing for a lynch. I'm not asking anyone to jump on this, or to embrace my ideals on the matter. I'm simply explaining why I firmly stand by my decision for that vote.

It is sort of a standard site thing to place a Random vote at the very start of the game

So tell me, Vas, why did you feel the need to post a non-random vote? I, also, disagree. I think people should find a reason to vote early. Make it half-baked if you want, but find a reason that you can defend. Voting for things that can be relevent to the game get us out of the RVS faster.

The idea is, that competing wagons is a way to find connections by checking out people's reactions to both wagons.

Would you mind explaining, exactly, how you can find connections that way? As I've mentioned in other games when this is brought up, it really doesn't help in that aspect. Usually early in games both wagons will be town-led which makes it easier for the scum to hop on for lesser reasons. I'm all for early game wagons, solely due to they go a long way in getting us out of the RVS. However, attempting to get actual information out of the wagons this early in the game is a silly notion.

[Leech]

To me, hopping on the Shotty bandwagon to make it L-1 seems scummy to me. I mean Shotty is an ideal target to bandwagon on, everyone seems to have a gripe with him. Maybe someone will lynch him this early.

As scum, would you lynch a player as disruptive as Shotty? Would you endorse a lynch, or even night kill, a player that has self-hammered as town in LyLo? Up until I'm making this point, I really don't see scum wanting to get rid of the guy for the reasons I do. When he's town, he helps scum. When he's scum, well...he helps town. (By getting lynched.) Scum tend to keep these VI's around because it increases their odds of winning. The longer players like him are around the longer town constantly has to deal with the WIFOM of it. Also lynching him later in the game, when he's town, makes it impossible for us to hit scum in that phase. Except for the wifom this post will create on the subject, I don't see scum hammering Shotty this early.

We are two pages in, and lynch all townie claims is just a sad excuse for a policy lynch!

This is not why we are policy lynching you.

[Leech]

My point is: if the player has claimed VT, and we DON'T lynch him, then when it comes to choosing a night kill, the scum will have a greater chance of hitting PRs, because they will have one person out of however many that they know isn't a PR. Taking "tonight" as an example, leaving Shotty alive could, in the worst case scenario, leave scum with 2/5 chance of hitting a PR. Whereas if we were to lynch shotty and he flips town, that goes down to 2/6.

This is absolutely correct. It is also the exact reason that no one should ever claim before L-1. Not only that, but you shouldn't even claim at L-1 until someone has stated that they are willing to hammer. Shotty's claim was extremely premature as no one suggested that they were considering hammering. The only reason we get a claim before a lynch is so any PR can provide us with information before their lynch. It is not designed to prevent the lynch, rather sharing information before that lynch takes place. It is extremely important to the town that no one claims until someone has shown interest in hammering.

It would be worst for us to leave Shotty alive, i.e. try to lynch someone else because (a) it narrows PRs down for scum and (b) wagoning on someone else might out a PR.

That's just it, though. Even if the player claims doc/cop, we hammer anyway. We only have a 25% chance of having both, so it's a fair assumption to make that a claimed PR will die in the night anyway. Scum can, and will, fake claim PR's if they are certain they will be lynched. This has the chance of outing a PR in the process, to actually help their team before they die. A claim isn't, and shouldn't be, a deterrence to a lynch. It should only be used to share any information before you die.

i disagree with it at this point in the game. in 5 more pages i'm cool with it

What does page number have to do with anything? In some games the RVS lasts 5 pages. Also, this is the exact opposite of what you said earlier:

We are two pages in, and lynch all townie claims is just a sad excuse for a policy lynch!

While you did mention the page number, you clearly expressed that lynch townie claims was a sad excuse for a policy lynch. Are you seriously trying to get us to believe that in five more pages you'll be ok with us lynching you for claiming VT? You are just saying what you think people want to hear.

Not that your scummy but that you apprently have a VI play style.

That's not the entirety of it. His VI style is intentional, that's my problem with it. He wanted his title on this site to say "The VI has arrived."

[Leech]

Even when asked questions of great importance to help the town win, he simply ignores them or offers simplistic one liners that fail to help anyone including himself

That will never change, either.

ok, Everyone I want you to answer me some questions
1. Who is scum
2. Why
3. How
4. Policy lynch me or not?

Why are you asking four questions when you clearly only care about the last one? Let's face it, it's impossible to have any scum read at this point. That fact directly invalidates the next two questions. The only question that can be answered at this point is the last one. You just asked three distracting questions for no reason, before the one you actually want answered. Why are you going out of your way to mask what you are doing?

[Leech]

actually leech you just made my point for me, there are no reads yet, there for one cannot expect me to post who I think is scum and or why. So good night, lets continue this tomorrow

Can you please make this the ONE game you actually pay attention to? Your "point" makes absolutely no sense because no one is expecting you to post who you think is scum, or why. That simply has not been requested of you. You aren't answering questions that players are asking, those we do expect you to answer. You are responding to specific things, and leaving out the rest. In fact, you are the first person to ask those questions. Mind telling me how you were making a point about those questions being unanswerable at this phase of the game, when you're the first person to ask them? Mind telling me how you're justified in demanding people answer your questions first, while you've blatantly ignored many questions from other players of the game?

This isn't conducive to scumhunting at all.

Four pages in, all I know about you is that you're fat. (Not an insult, look at his sig.) By all means you should remedy the issue with scumhunting by adding your own insights on all the happenings in the thread.

[Leech]

At this point, if he is lynched and turns out to be townie, it's going to look bad for me. I realize that.

It won't make you look bad if he flips town. What makes you look bad was your actual reason for voting. In your voting post you actually stated you weren't fond of the PL against shotty, rather you were voting because he didn't come on to defend himself. Even worse is the fact that you later tried to find out if your reason was acceptable by asking about "how long is too long". When you go along with something that you even say you don't agree with, while justifying it with a pretty terrible reason...that's what makes you look bad.

Now, I'm not telling you that to dissuade from lynching me or anything...I just want everybody to understand that I have a valid reason for not being around. You all gotta do what you gotta do and for my part, I am not going to take personally anything that happens in a game. I'll see you fine folk the day after tomorrow if I'm still alive.

That's a pretty heavy reaction to a single vote on you. This isn't the first time you've had an over-the-top reaction. Very interesting indeed.

[Leech]

Sounds to me like he's trying to distance himself from his vote in the event of Shotty flips town; but still gets the credit of acting with the town.

If you're looking at it from that angle, you have to ask yourself why he'd be doing that? Longing supports a policy in the same manner as I do. We don't care if he's town or scum, as we realize that no matter what alignment he won't be helping the town. When the subject is a policy lynch, of this nature, why would scum go to that trouble when they could just say that they felt he was a better lynch regardless of his alignment? I find him suspicious for various reasions, but that one really doesn't make much sense.

Do you think it was a premature claim considering that TheLonging explicitly asked him to claim in #27?

Yes, TheLonging should not have asked him to claim. A request to claim should only occur if you are about to hammer that player. It should not happen any sooner than that.

So, opinions on the shotty wagon? What do you think of shotty's responses? Do you think he's scum or he's Town due to them? Do you believe his claim?

I fail to see why his alignment, or his claim, are even issues here. This player has deliberately cost the town games by self-hammering in LyLo situations. He should not make it that far in this game. Also, the only time you should ever policy lynch is in the first phase of the game. This is the only time of the game where it's a viable option. At any other phase in this game we will be sacrificing much more substantial reads on players, or giving up information learned from the subsequent nights to lynch him. I'm not saying lynch him this instant, but we need to lynch him in this phase.

[Leech]

I'm going to reconsider my early Avish read in light of this. I mean, if her not agreeing with the policy lynch but still voting for Shotty is something of a towntell (i.e. optimum scum play would dictate that she would either agree with the policy lynch and vote for Shotty, or disagree and not vote for Shotty), then how far does that weaken the case on her vote being opportunistic too? I think your point on her - overly defensive - is probably the best out of all three. I mean, there's always the fact that she might not follow optimum scum play, and could have inadvertently backed herself into a corner (or be WIFOMing), but your point significantly weakens my argument.

Whoa, I never said that not agreeing with the policy lynch but still voting anyway is a town tell. I was pointing out that your perspective on it, wasn't quite one I'd agree with. The fact that someone will say one thing and do another, is a severe lack of consistency that we should consider. This is especially true when a player disagrees with a valid point against a player, while condoning a far weaker one.

"Overly defensive" is the most over-used fallacy in this game. Townies are just as likely to be "overly defensive" if not more likely than scum. That wasn't really the point I was making. My point was that Avish is being pre-emptively defensive, trying to defend in advance. I'm not quite sure if that is actually a scum tell or not. I look forward to Avish returning to explain these concerns.

So shouldn't you be arguing that the emphasis of prematurity is on TheLonging, rather than Shotty in this case? I don't like people who are not on L-1 claiming; and I believe that premature VT claims more often than not come from scum. But I don't think you can hold Shotty accountable for an early claim when he was directly asked to.

Isn't that what I am arguing? I said that Shotty claimed pre-maturely, but I never said it was his fault. I was simply stating that no one should claim until they are L-1 and someone has suggested that they are willing to hammer. Also, no one should request a claim until they are ready to hammer, as well. There will be many L-1 situations in this game, and not all of them are going to result in a lynch. We should only ask for claims when a lynch is about to take place.

As for TheLonging, although I agree that it was unlikely he would get hammered, being at L-1 does leave Shotty open to someone hammering without announcing it; improbable =/= impossible. I think asking for a claim now was as good a time as any; especially considering most people are agreed that Shotty is the lynch for the day.

If people will pay attention and agree that no one should ask for a claim until someone is willing to hammer, then I don't really see that as much of a problem. If someone hammers suddenly without asking for a claim first, then that will make that player pretty suspicious will it not? This is precisely why I'm trying to get this idea planted in your minds early. If someone later in the game goes against this, then they will have some answering to do.

[Leech]

I know that it's supposed to be a policy lynch of the former type. But, let's be honest, if it was a policy lynch of the latter type would you just flat out say so? I wouldn't think so. You aren't going to get a lot of support from noobs (like me) with a vote like that.

So what, exactly are you implying? I believe that TL and I are the only ones that have played with Shotty. We have both stated that we are policy lynching due to his tendency to ruin games regardless of his alignment. So, are you suggesting that either of us are lying? If so I can link you to the last game I PL'd him in. Also, the last sentence does not make any sense. You say you wouldn't get support from you? Your vote is on Shotty. If you are actually doubting that he's being PL'd for "right" reasons that you've stated, then you are still supporing it by leaving your vote there. If you don't think that players are PL'ing for the reasons you would disagree with, why the hell did you bring it up in the first place? That quote is one giant contradiction.

cool! Do it, drop the hammer!!!

Regardless of your alignment you are playing against your win-condition, again. Stop it. For once, why don't you actually try in a game? That post did absolutely nothing in the way of giving anyone in this game confidence about your ability to contribute anything of value. Maybe if you actually attempted to be a worthwhile player in this game, the policy lynch wouldn't have to happen? Posts like this one, are the reason I'm leaving my vote where it is.

Hath Avish answereth thy concerns..eth?

What dost thou thinketh of Avish..eth?

When it comes to players answering my concerns, I'll let that be known when I feel the need to do so. The same can be said about my reads on players. There's reasons why I don't start off every post giving my reads on every single player. Sometimes its better to sit on your suspicions and let them bloom.

WIFOM...is a bit hard to expound upon. I'd point you to the handy-dandy Wiki article. Basically, Town should try to avoid this. In fact, one of my favorite scum tactics is to drown Town with WIFOM and cause as much chaos as possible.

Town not wanting to get involved in WIFOM is such a ridiculous fallacy. I challenge you to find a single case of anyone catching scome post day 1, in any game on this forum, that did not at least tread a little into WIFOM territory. The fact of the matter is you can look at absolutely any play in this game and come up with a town and scum motivation for doing it. At it's base, every accusation is WIFOM, every single one. "This is a scum tell!" "No it's not! WHy would I do that as scum, when I could have done this?" "Well, because then you could do this!" That is about 99.9% of the debates you will encounter in this game.

I just recently won a game as scum, because people refused to debate about the wifom impications of my NK choices. Town should do whatever it takes to find the scum. If you have to drink a bit of the wine to do it, so be it. WIFOM is not inherently bad. Dismissing valid points because they are WIFOM, when there are other non-WIFOM scumtells present, is bad.

I thought there was no Godfather in this game. Furthermore, if the cop gets roleblocked, he doesn't get an incorrect reading, he simply gets no reading. Correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, I cannot be the Godfather...for there is no Godfather. I would not have said it in a game where even the possibility of a Godfather exists.

It's not just the Godfather thing. You're also trying to direct PR's, which would have required them outing their role, solely to back your claim of township. I'd rather a potential cop investigates someone that they believe to be scum, rather than investigate someone just to see if they are town like they say. Trying to direct PR's in any game is a huge no-no.

As far as the preemptiveness, I'm not sure what else to say about it. I think that anything I say would just rate as more WIFOM in your book.

How is someone taking pre-emptive measures against attacks that haven't been made yet, anything remotely similar to wifom?

I feel bad, I've been so concerned with proving my own innocence that I haven't really been trying to get a read on anyone else.

Your innocence shouldn't be important to you. You are placing your survival into a category of higher importance than the town winning the game. If you are town, you win the game with the town regardless. Scum have to worry about their survival, the town truly does not. Town victory > Your survival.

Regardless of that, you should have the town considering you as a suspect at all times. I want each and every one of you to be extremely suspicious of me, for example. If you aren't, then you should be. The only way the town wins is by suspecting, putting pressure, and demanding answers from everyone. If any player, trusts any other player, at this phase of the game then that trust can result in a town loss.

Now I'm not saying act scummy, but you shouldn't actively make efforts to get others to believe you are town. When you go out of your way to give off that vibe, you are being misleading. When you get caught being misleading, in that manner, then you will have a hard time defending that. Trying to prove your own innocence is the fastest way to get mislynched if you are town. Truely town motivaded actions can be defended. You need not worry about that.

In any event, this will be my last post for a day or so.

Mod, I'm V/LA for the next couple of days.

Noted, thanks.

Vel

[Leech]

I'm back from my V/LA, it was a lot longer than I expected it to be. I'll read what I missed and make a post ASAP.

[Leech]

Many apologies. I wasn't expecting to be so strapped for time. Anyway, welcome LC. Hopefully you're not scum again! (Ok, I'm lying. I do not-so-secretly hope you're scum so I can avenge that loss.)

I stated to begin with that I was voting for him to see what he would say about himself. I left it there for the same reason.

I'm not sure whether or not I believe that. There were already votes on Shotty, your vote wouldn't make him say anything about himself that the previous votes wouldn't. Considering he'd already recieved two votes to Policy Lynch that would be more than enough to make him try and change up his act, if he had any intentions of doing so. Voting at that time, for that reason, just doesn't make sense.

Vas, Leech, and Vox I'm not sure about. They're undoubtedly doing the best they can to play their roles, but they're also being professional and explaining things in a neutral way, so

I'm having problems with them.

Isn't that interesting? Why would players in the game explaining things in a "neutral way" give you problems? I don't like the word "problem" here. Had you said that it was giving you problems

reading

us, then it would have an entirely different meaning. You indicated that you were having problems with us, as players, for that reason. That statement has far greater implications.

Out of curiosity, how many Newbie games have you not-newbie guys played. You know, as not-newbies...

This is relevant, how? This knoweledge will not change your perspective on how players are playing in this game. You did not ask for links to games to cross-reference playstyles or anything of the sort. This was merely an attempt to take the discussion in a different direction while adding nothing of substance.

Unvote, Vote: Avish

Your pre-emptive defending, extremely opportunistic vote on Shotty, unbelievable explaination of that vote, extremely odd word choice, and your fluff makes you the best lynch for this phase.

Well

I've never actually been policy lynched

, but if I am oh well. I'm town, and no one else is doing anything worth noting sooo... I'm off to hang with my girl friend.

What? I led a policy lynch on you in the last game we were in together, it was successful. How are you going to say it's never happened, when I personally led one? This game I explain perfectly well why he's being policy lynched and it does, in fact, happen. Also I can't find the exact post in that game, but the player Mysterio had mentioned that Shotty was also policy lynched in games he played with Shotty as well.

Funny, he seems to actually get policy lynched a lot, for claiming it never actually happened.

i think both scum are on it, due to the fact that the other one has had plenty of time to cassualy hammer by now

That would be fantastic logic, if not for the fact that it isn't. Newb scum have a hard time justifying hammers. From the games I've seen, scum are much more likely to put town L-1 than to hammer. The fact that no one's hammer could just as easily be scum hesitance as it could be town-motivated. Or, there's also the possibility that Shotty actually is scum, which could result in his partner refusing to bus.

Leech, could you link me the game where he self hammered in LyLo as town?

I don't remember which, specific, game it happened in. Why do you need the link anyway? He hasn't denied doing it. If I had the time to read all his games over, I would. I don't, however, at the moment.

I think that if Shotty is as bad as Leech suggested, we need to get rid of him before LyLo. If a lynch is the only way to do this, we may need to use up a lynch on it.

Well, I'd love to policy lynch Shotty for his playstyle in this game. However, I wasn't really "determined" to do so in the beginning. My intent was to try and build a wagon, and see where it went. As it stands, Avish's jump on it reeks of opportunistic scum. While, experienced scum would probably keep him around to confuse the town, newbie scum would probably take advantage of that early lynch. In fact in the game I linked above, both newb scum hopped on it. A Shotty lynch isn't a bad lynch, but a scum lynch is a far better one.

@EggLV: Please contribute something to the game.

[Leech]

It happens to be extremely relevant to my understanding of gameplay on this forum in general. Isn't that the point of newbie games? To learn stuff? And I have learned tons of stuff.

The point is, you learned absolutely nothing from that fluff question. You didn't ask for links to games. By reading those games you would, actually, learn something about those players. Just asking how many games others have played adds nothing to the game, and nothing to your knowledge about the players playing it. I'm glad you've learned a lot of stuff in this game, but you learned nothing from THAT question. And before people start thinking that I'm stretching things... Scum have asked this question before. The reason it's a scummy question is because it is an attempt to look like you are scumhunting, while not. It's a question that looks like it can help, while the answer will provide no information that will help you determine someone's alignment. When these questions are asked, without a request for links to games, it's a scum tell.

I'm just wacky. One way or another the truth will out.

What does that even mean?

Would you now. I wonder. You were not the first to vote for shotty, but you were the first to make it a PL. All that "try and build a wagon and see where it went" bit smacks strongly of retcon. Even if Shotty doesn't get lynched his credibility has been shot. Just as planned? For now you've jumped on Vas's argument against me and added a few things that, frankly, seem a bit frivolous.

I was the first to make it a PL on Shotty. Shotty should be PL'd, I've never said otherwise. However I said at the start of this game that my vote would remain on that PL until I feel someone else is scum. I made that clear at the beginning of this game. However, that does not mean that I didn't have other motivations for suggesting it in the first place. PL discussions are always heated, and they always draw a line in the sand, which actually helps the scumhunting in the game progress faster than it would normally. I'm fully aware that newbscum will opportunistically take advantage of a PL because they are blood thirsty. While experienced scum would keep VI's around, newb scum won't. I simply did not mention that before, as it would defeat the purpose of what I was doing.

Now, how the hell are you going to say that what I've added seems frivolous when it has caught scum in games before? If it is a proven method of finding scum, it's not in the least bit frivolous.

Your irritation at me asking a seemingly random question in this, a newbie game, seems overblown. So what if a newbie is asking a random question in a newbie game?

I'm sorry playing the newbie card isn't going to work when what you are doing is completely scummy. You're downplaying it as a "newbie move" when it's a proven "scum move". Sorry you don't get out that easily.

Leech is right about one thing, however, 'tis better to lynch mafia than VI.
Ergo:
Unvote, Vote: Leech

So, wait, why am I scum now? Tell me how this isn't just an OMGUS please.

Yeahh, Avish is scum alright. Pity, I kind of liked her. She's doing a good job sounding genuine but actions speak louder than words, and there be common newbie scumtells in her play. (Overdefensiveness, survival-ism etc.)

Vas, you should know by now that over-defensiveness is not a scum tell. Town are just as, if not more likely, to be "overly defensive" than scum. Most newbies do not grasp the notion that their survival isn't crucial to a win. The "scumtells" you are describing don't exist.

Keep in mind that I come from somewhere where mafia is played in a very different way. THAT is actually why I asked my oh-so distracting question. I was trying to figure out how used you guys are to actually playing with newbies.

Cool story bro-ette. Sorry, but I'm not going to ignore all the things that have nailed me scum in other games, just because you play differently on another site. Also, the question you asked wouldn't even accomplish what you're claiming to have been seeking. Without asking for LINKS TO GAMES, you would not know how players react to newbies. Also, that question was designed to discredit cases by the players that answer it as well. It was a questioned designed to discredit people in this game under the guise of trying to look helpful while adding nothing to this game. That is incredibly scummy.

As I made clear earlier, I support a Shotty lynch, and frankly only a Shotty lynch at this point, because to vote elsewhere could give scum that easier chance of hitting any existing PRs. He hasn't made any effort to play in a town-like manner, so I'm finding it difficult to distinguish between Shotty-VI-Antitown behaviour and Shotty-scum behaviour, but I can't see him changing my mind on wanting to lynch him.

I want to PL Shotty, but I'd rather lynch scum. Also the "easier chance of hitting PR" arguement is flawed due to the fact that we may not even have any. PR's don't win games nearly as much as the vanilla townies do anyway. While PR's shouldn't out themselves, obviously, I consider relying on them to be a crutch. We need to take advantage of every lynch, and if there's a likely scum lynch, that obviously takes priority over a PL. In fact, if/when Avish flips scum, just look at the math:

Day 1: 2 scum 7 townies - If we lynch scum
Day 2: 1 Scum 6 townies - The ratio ot scum:town is significantly higher in our favor If we PL Shotty here, even if he flips town it's not too bad
Day 3 1 scum 4 townies - We still have significant numbers on the scum and could actually mislynch here, again
Day 4: 1 scum 2 townies - This is LyLo

The reason this is a better scenario is because doing this would give us 4 day phases. PL'ing in this phase would not, unless Shotty flips scum. Of course, there's no indication that Shotty actually is scum. Earlier, that wasn't really important to me because we didn't have player that was a shoe-in for scum. Now, the situation's changed. Let's look at the alternative:

If we PL Shotty in this phase and he flips town:
Day 2: 2 Scum 5 Townies - Far less than optimal for us if we mislynch
Day 3: 2 scum 3 Townies - This is LyLo

Clearly taking a shot at Avish being scum is more beneficial.

The counter-wagon on Avish feels a bit off. I have a niggling feeling about two of the three votes on there at the moment (VV's and LC's - Leech's feels like an honest vote). That said, I'm see-sawing on Avish being paranoid townie or paranoid scum. She was paranoid enough to pre-emptively defend herself, but she wasn't paranoid when I said I sympathised with her (i.e. she didn't ask for a link to the appropriate game). Similarly, she is paranoid enough to ask how many newbie games we'd played, but not paranoid enough to ask for links to these games. I think she's an interesting counter, but I'm unsettled by it atm.

I don't see why that feels off, at all. She didn't request links to the games, because she wasn't actually looking for information. She was playing a "safe" scum play by attempting to look like she's scumhunting, while not. The information she was requesting would have absolutely no bearing on the game, and wouldn't help her narrow down any player's alignment. Scum do this, and I've lynched scum in games because of it.

As for the votes on there, Leech, I'm surprised you'd jump ship on a Shotty wagon. Were you suggesting earlier that you were never really fully committed to a Shotty lynch from the outset (#162)? You didn't really try to dissuade people from hammering. Unless you were hoping that the hypothetical-unsuspecting-newb-scum would hammer and then you'd gain information from it? And now that hasn't happened, you're willing to forgo the PL? This (and your #162) assumes that you're pretty certain Shotty is town. Would you go as far as to say that? What do you make of the lynch-all-claimed-VTs argument?

Why are you so surprised that I'd "jump ship" when I said at the beginning of the game that I would if I believed someone to be scum? In fact, you were the one that asked me that question in the first place, it's odd how quickly you'd forget that. I'm in no way suggesting that I wasn't commited to a Shotty PL. I was definitely pushing it. However, it's foolish to continue pushing a PL when you have a scum read on someone. lynching scum is far superior to a PL. I wasn't dissuading people from hammering, because at the time he was the best lynch. He simply no longer is. Also, I'm not sure that Shotty is town. I'm also not sure he's scum. I'd rather attempt to lynch scum, than lynch a player that is living up to both his town and scum meta. Avish is most likely scum, so there's absolutely no reason for me to leave my vote on Shotty.

Those with arguments against me seem to be saying that I'm really stupid in one breath and then really clever in the next. I can't be both. If I'm falling into newbie scumtells by being all opportunistic and paranoid, then how exactly am I managing to sound so genuine? I am really enjoying this game. So many chuckles to be had.

You aren't sounding genuine. Your reason for Shotty was not a genuine vote, it was opportunistic. Your fluff question wasn't genuine, it was worthless. You defended yourself before you were even a target, which isn't being overly defensive, it's being pre-emptively defensive. All of your plays scream scum, and we'd have to be deaf to not hear it. If you think a single word you type is coming off as "genuine" then we can add "delusional" to the list of adjectives that describe you in this game.

an RV, everyone needs to be pressured some on d-1

Random votes don't add pressure, when you actually say it's random. We are far beyond the RVS anyway, so why don't you actually play this game?

[Leech]

I disagree with the Avish wagon at this point so I won't be voting there. So for the moment I won't vote but that choice will change shortly.

Why do you disagree, though? Did no one else even notice the OMGUS vote that Avish put on me? Do you realize how scummy that move is, on top of the other things she's done? I'm sorry, but I want everyone in this game not voting Avish, to explain why Shotty, or any other player, is a better lynch.

[Leech]

You are so aggressive in your attack, so sure you know everything, so down right cocky, in fact, that if you turn out to be town I'm going to be embarrassed for you.

I know you are too lazy to read games, but maybe you should just glance at my wiki and a few of my games. Just spend 5 minutes doing this. You don't have to look at anything other than my style of play. I am always a very aggressive player, for better or worse (usually better). At this point you aren't even forming arguments. You're just saying "Whatever the truth will out." I show an example of scum asking almost the exact same question that you asked, and you just brush it off. The fact is, I'm going with proven scum tells in this game. I'm not saying "I think this is scummy because ____" I'm showing you point blank that scum do exactly what you do in games. I fail to see how you can justify your vote on me, when I'm clearly scumhunting, and using actual scumtells as a base for my case on you.

I still say I learned something from my fluff question.

By all means enlighten us to what, exactly, you learned that can be of any use in this game.

[Leech]

also consider this; the more we put off not lynching shotty, the more we have to waste time dealing with him, and he's scum, so we're just going to prance around doing NOTHING

Yes, but a Shotty lynch now, with two decent scum candidates is the absolute wrong move to make. If we hit scum today, you can be 100% sure that Shotty will be my main focus in the next phase. His recent claim to be willing to hammer as soon as Avish gets another vote, without adding anything to this game himself, is horrible. However, now simply isn't the time. Instead of tunneling on a PL, why don't you give your thoughts on Avish and Vas?

[Leech]

I also have taken into consideration Leech's strong argument against Avish and I believe it is compelling and logical. But I do not believe Avish is or should be lynched Night 1. As stated above I support a Shotty lynch for this night.

You say it's a logical case, and then you still push for a Shotty lynch which is the least logical course of action to take in this situation? That doesn't make sense. Shotty's lynch is PL, nothing more. If you can find a single instance where he's said anything that can reflect on his alignment, feel free to post it. It simply can't be done. Avish on the other hand, imagine this, is actually scummy. Her actions are legit scumtells. When you look at the way the two players have played this first phase, we have a better shot at lynching scum in Avish.

A byproduct of my VV suspicion is that I'm a not all that comfortable with an Avish lynch, but she's not a terrible candidate for the noose today.

Except that Avish is the scummiest player. It's actually getting frustrating that people continue to ignore the blatant scumtells from Avish. Fluff, pre-emptive defending, opportunistic voting, paranoia, OMGUS, appeals to emotion...it goes on and on. It makes no sense to me how you guys will condone lynches of people who are "anti-town" at the very best over someone that's actually been playing a scummy game. Shotty is the lynch that can wait until later. He's not destroying this game, he's pretty much ignoring it. We can PL him after we lynch scum. Right now, we should try to actually lynch scum. Anyone who says that the Shotty lynch is anything other than a PL is full of it. There is absolutely nothing indicative of his alignment in his posts.

there's also the argument of night-kill PR odds which is still clanging around in the back of my mind.

There might not even be PR's in this game. You guys need to stop using that as a reason to lynch. While it's true you shouldn't try to narrow down potential PR's, using that as an actual reason to lynch someone is absurd. There's a reason you don't request a claim until you are ready to hammer. The fact that TL asked for a claim extremely early is not a reason to lynch Shotty. If anything, it's more reason to suspect TL for asking for the claim to begin with. He's played enough games to know when to request a claim.

[Leech]

*sigh* This is exactly why I think Shotty is the priority lynch today. I don't feel confident lynching Avish at all at the moment despite Leech's pushing. Whenever someone trys to focus attention away from him he somehow figures out to make himself seem more lynchable then before. We are going to have to lynch him eventually. Nows our best oppertunity.

We'll have the same opportunity in every phase. However, we should kill scum first. There's no way I'll let Shotty live until LyLo so he can destroy the game. There is no reason to lynch him right now, though. The fact is, he's playing exactly how I said he would. This style is normal from him. Yeah, it would be nice if he would play (or better yet, if he was replaced by someone who would actually play the game) but that is not a reason to lynch him in this phase at this point. Don't lose sight of the main goal, which is lynching scum.

[Leech]

Ok... this first quote was posted on the last page:

And I like our chances 2/5 with people who want to play then possibly 1/6 with Shotty. And thats my opinion.

You literally said that you'd rather lynch town than scum. This is completely ignoring the fact that once we lynch scum it would be 1/6, then after the PL in the next phase would be 1/4. That gives us TWO phases after the PL and a total of 4 total phases in this game. That is mathmatically, and intellectually an inferior option.

Now, onto your last post:

Here is my reasoning. I'm not convinced Avish is scum. But I'm also not sure if she's town.

So why are you convinced Shotty is scum? Oh, wait...you aren't. In fact from your overall attitude you seem rather sure that Shotty is town.

Like others have mentioned, her posts seem genuine and I can totally buy them, but when Leech posts something about Avish, I feel as if my sense of reasoning is saying: Look KC, she's Scum that's a fairly strong argument. I'm torn with listening to my gut (Avish is town) and listening to my brain (Avish is Scum)

When you can't back your gut reads with your brain, then they are completely irrational. Gut reads should never be enough alone to lynch, or not lynch.

I'd rather have another day to figure out who is scum without shotty and see where that takes us.

Considering Shotty isn't even playing, letting him survive the phase will still result in a day without him.

If Avish is scum it obviously works better. But I'm not convinced Avish is scum, and

we can't afford to mislynch one day and lynch shotty the next day.

The bold is extremely interesting. Right there you are pretty much stating that you believe Shotty is town. If you believed that Shotty was more than likely scum, you'd have no problem lynching Avish today, and then hitting scum in the next phase. That wouldn't hurt our chances to win at all. Why are you so "torn" about voting for a person that your brain makes you believe she's scum every time I make a case, but you're more than willing to lynch a person that you obviously believe is town?

[Leech]

That you believe I am in the wrong for believing your argument is logical but not voting for your lynch candidate.

That's close, but not quite. It's not that you aren't voting for my lynch candidate, it's that you're not voting for an actual scum candidate for someone that you believe is most likely town. That's a huge issue. Also, I don't buy the fact that you can understand my case on Avish yet think she's town at the same time. If you understand my case, and you find it logical, then you really can't think she's town under that circumstances. This is especially true when I've linked cases where I've caught scum for playing how Avish is playing. You are saying that you believe she's town, in spite of the fact that she's participated in actions that have resulted in lynching scum in the past. This isn't just my games, but many games. You said it best right here:

when Leech posts something about Avish, I feel as if my sense of reasoning is saying: Look KC, she's Scum that's a fairly strong argument. I'm torn with listening to my gut (Avish is town) and listening to my brain (Avish is Scum)

Right there you state quite blatantly that you believe my case on Avish. When you read my points, your reasoning is telling you that she's scum. A gut read is a completely irrational feeling that is not based on facts or reasoning of any kind. Your gut read is that Avish is town. Your gut read, from what you've said on numerous occasions, is that Shotty is also town. Your brain, however is telling you that Avish is scum. Of course I'm going to cry fowl when I see a player attempting to justify remaining on a wagon they feel is town, when they have said that all the logic is pointing to another player being scum.

Is he town? More than likely. Is their anyone I believe is scum and willing to lynch? No.

That, right there, is my problem with you. You understand my case and find it logical, but you are willingly attempting to lynch a player that you believe is more than likely town. You are opting for that instead of taking a shot at lynching scum. Shotty is absolutely not the best lynch at this phase. Potential scum, however, is.

Regardless of what anyone says, the wagon on Shotty is a PL. While I'm perfectly ok policy lynching distractions like Shotty, it should never happen when there is potential exposed scum. I guarantee you that if we policy lynch, right now, there will be a backlash in the next phase that will put up a giant roadblock that will get in the way of scumhunting. This roadblock will consist, mainly, of theory discussion about Shotty's PL. If we are going to PL in this game, it has to happen after a scum lynch.

[Leech]

Ok, it's time to figure out what's going on here. LC dying was odd, as the only real player that he made an actual case against was Avish. So, obviously he wasn't killed for being a threat to the scum by way of figuring them out. So, why was he targeted? He obviously wasn't "getting close" which is why many newbie scum kill. (In fact, LC killed me in a previous game for that exact reason, ironically.) So, this leads me to believe that the scum in this game aren't getting much attention, and that they are confident in not being lynched in this phase.

Also, there's something that's pretty telling in that choice as well. Typically in newbie games, one of the most experienced players gets killed. Usually it's the IC, or failing that they kill the player that seems to be "the best." The fact that Lc died, goes against that. LC is a smart player, but if the scum were going to kill for that reason I think they would have chosen someone else. This leads me to believe that the scum is composed of at least one pretty experienced player. The lack of a "newbie" kill choice is pretty significant.

Reading through the thread, I'm growing more and more uncomfortable with TheLonging. He had stated that he felt that Avish was town, and that Shotty was scum. Ok, others felt that Avish was town before her flip. I didn't see it, and still don't. She played a very scummy game, and it's unfortunate. Hopefully she takes this game as a learning experience on how things will be percieved on this site. So I'm willing to accept that players could have, by some miracle, truly had a town read on Avish but I'm not willing to accept that TL legitimately had/has a scum read on Shotty.

That's like saying someone has a scum read on DavidParker. Shotty has simply not played this game enough to give you a scum read. Let's face the facts here, Shotty was L-1 on the second page in this game. Why would a player that already plays terribly, and lurks a lot, really care about a game that it looks like they are not only going to get lynched, but rather quickly? It's his own fault for being in that position in the first place, but I could definitely see why he wouldn't care about this game. He's literally laughed at his lynch this entire game, and I'm struggling to see how that reflects on his alignment. In fact, one could argue that by not fighting to survive that if it was an alignment tell, at all, it would have to be town.

To me the entire "I think shotty actually is scum" bit was a ploy to gain townie points for not lynching Avish, while pushing for a rather easy lynch on Shotty. From a scum standpoint, that situation is win/win. If Shotty is town then he has a lynch that he can dismiss as PL even if he flips scum. If he is scum then he just royally bussed his partner gaining him an obscene amount of townie points as well.

The most damning thing about TL is how he instantly voted for Shotty in this phase, and immediately changed his mind. He votes, then immediately has a change of heart and states he has to think about it? I thought that Shotty wasn't a PL and that TL actually thought he was scum? What's there to think about? If you think someone is scum, why not vote for him?

I wanted to lynch him for both but look, I'm starting to doubt shotty is scum, mainly because I have another rising suspicion with LC's death.

He's doubting Shotty is scum because he has another rising suspicion? Why does one suspicion all of a sudden make Shotty town? There's two scum in the game. From what he's saying here, he can only really have one suspect at a time.

Ah, DP. Long time no play with. Hope you can post content to make me think Eggy's slot isn't scum or VI.

Why would it matter if you thought his slot was a VI?

Anyway, TL has posted a lot of IIoA in this game as well. He's stated, plainly, that he feels certain ways but he's never really posted reasoning. In fact look at what he said about Avish:

Avis is now the most pro-town player in this entire game. I mean, after I read that post, I reread the thread. In fact, everything he's saying actually makes very good sense. This also leads me to believe that VV and shotty could be scum. However, shotty should be lynched first. At best he's scum, at worst he's a detriment to town, and he already CLAIMED townie.

We're supposed to believe that Avish's scummy plays made you believe she was town, and that you reread the thread to find that everything she was saying made perfect sense? (He was so moved my Avish's words of townish godliness, that he didn't even realize Avish isn't a guy.) He felt so strongly about that, that he never a single time defended Avish. He pushed for a Shotty lynch, but he didn't defend Avish at all. Why wouldn't you defend your biggest town-read? Look closely at what TL was doing. He was using Avish to push for a Shotty lynch, nothing more. He didn't seem to care that his biggest town read was being lynched, he just used her to push for the lynch on Shotty. He went out of his way to try and say that a Shotty lynch was better, never did he make an effort to show why an Avish lynch was bad. If you believe someone is town, why wouldn't you make a case for that player being town?

Also look at the last sentence of that quote. He was using the "he's claimed townie!" reason for justifying the lynch. He was the one that requested the claim so early. He could just as easily asked for the claim, solely to push for the lynch all claimed townie policy. How, the hell, is he going to use Shotty's claim against him, when he was the one that requested it in the first place.

I'm going to hold off on voting until I look more players over, but something is seriously off with how TL's playing.

DP looks like way opportunistic DP scum to me... just saying.

How does he look opportunistic? He's admittedly only read the last few pages, so he's basing his opinion strictly on that. With that being said, why wouldn't opportunistic scum focus on me at this point? Lets face it, with Avish actually flipping Doc I'd probably be the easiest to mislynch at this phase.

[Leech]

You can't think one and not the other, considering I feel like shotty is still scum. HOWEVER, there is something with LC's death that makes me consider other suspects first.

I can't? That's kind of funny, considering I do. While Avish looked like scummy scum scum, others had said that they felt she was town. Again I still do not understand how that could be, but considering she wasn't scum, I have to accept that someone may have legitimately had a town read on a scummy player. However, it is impossible to have a scum read on a player who hasn't posted anything that would give you that read. Not every VI is scum, and not every lurker is scum either. Everything you are saying about shotty being scum is a null tell, not scum.

Because he's not playing the game and because he hasn't suspected anyone, made weak votes, and has done nothing to defend himself or get involved, this is not only VI play, but also SCUM PLAY

Considering he plays that way EVERY game, it's completely null. It's completely ridiculous that you're using the same exact reasons for him being scum, as you were for justifying your PL on him earlier. Everything you described Shotty does in every game. You obviously knew this in the first phase, why are you forgetting it now?

Because Eggy wasn't a good player at all. He was a VItown, but it wasn't good. That's why it matters.

Really, he's VItown? He's been just as involved in this game as Shotty, yet he's town whereas Shotty's scum? When you crucify one player for acting one way, and ignore another for the same thing, it shows you have other motives for your selective targeting.

Not at all, you kind of forgot to read the rest of my posts where I stated reasoning. Hmm, you just focus on that ONE quote? Out of all the other reasoning I have posted?

They all boil down to the same thing "See, this is how he's playing the game!" "This is why we should lynch you!" each and everyone being a complete null tell. The only justifiable reason is the lynch all claimed townie, and you're the one that requested that he claim. I don't give two shits that he was L-1 when you asked either. You know full well that you don't request a claim until someone has shown interest in hammering. So, considering that was the only valid reason (how valid considering the circumstances is debatable), naturally I'm going to comment on it. Your only valid case isn't even that solid considering you shouldn't have asked for that claim in the first place.

"I think this guy is SCUM SCUM SCUM but I'm not voting him yet because I think there are much more important fish and I'm afraid to vote him because OH MY GOD HE MIGHT BE LYNCHED AND IT'LL LOOK BAD"

That's about as blatant as a misrep can get. I had clearly stated that I hadn't finished looking at all the other players over in the game yet. I was not going to vote before taking everything into account. The fact that you're suggesting that it's scummy to think before voting is completely ridiculous.

You're correct actually, you are the easiest to mislynch.[/b] Hey, remember when I was talking about people who might be scum? I was referring to you.

vote: leech

I love how you call me an easy mislynch then vote for me. If you agree that I'd be an easy MISLYNCH then why are you voting for me? Make up your mind, I can't be an easy mislynch and scum at the same time.

Still haven't done a reread recently, but based on recent posts the scum team is kingcheese+Leech... The wifomy "ic not dying means hes scum" card settles it.

I never said the IC was scum because he survived. I said the fact that none of the experienced players died, that one of them is probably scum. I don't see LC's kill choice coming from a double-newbie scum team.

I like most of what Leech is saying in his #298. I agree with his theory that an experienced player is scum however, I am a bit wary that he may be projecting since, V/LA aside, his vote on Avish was kind of a 180. He went from sub-ICing Avish to suspecting here.

My questions and comments towards Avish were always backed by my suspicions of her. There's only been a few moments where I could be accused of "Sub-IC'ing" and in either case I was trying to prevent her from guiding PR's, and explaining how her "must appear town" mindset was actually scummy. Those were both inspired by my suspicions of her. I wasn't trying to teach her anything, ever. I was trying to prevent her from hurting the town.

There's a few more people that I haven't been paying enough attention to, so I'll read up on them and probably vote shortly.

[Leech]

A) So you're only going to excuse him as scum SOLELY because he's shotty? That doesn't work for every game, and I do know the difference between a SCUM VI and a TOWN VI.

B) See above.

C) Eggy has 14 posts. Shotty has 43. ?????

D) Every time a post has reasoning to actually lynch someone you can use that excuse. Also it IS scummy, again, you are using his past history as a VI to excuse him! Why?! I don't care, where I come from, L-1 is where you ask from a claim, since people can hammer out of no where, so no, I do not give a shit if no one expressed to hammer.

E) What was the harm in voting me and looking? Any harm? At all?

F) Mislynch is thrown around too liberally these days, a mistake on my part. You are scum.

A) No, I'm saying your points against him are null. I'd love to hear how you know the difference betwen "scum VI" (Considering VI is a term for stupid and/or reckless TOWN, you're really stretching here) and town VI. A VI is a town player that looks extremely scummy due to their playstyle, or lack of experience. You can say all you want that you know the difference, and I still maintain that Shotty has done absolutely nothing that reflects on his alignment. Condsidering he ALWAYS playes this way, you cannot call it a scum tell. It is simply impossible to tell the difference between "scum VI" and Town VI, when he plays exactly the same in either alignment.

C) Congratulations, you can look at an ISO and read the post number. While Shotty has made more posts, what they have actually added to this game are on par with eachother. Just because he has more posts doesn't mean he's been more involved.

D) It's amusing how you're back pedaling. You even admitted earlier that you asked him to claim prematurely. Keep changing your tune. Also, I keep saying that you were saying he was scum for the same reasons you condoned a POLICY LYNCH on him previously. You were trying to claim that your NULL tells are scum tells. This isn't excusing him for his previous games. If it's null, it's null. You cannot say that a person is scummy when they are playing the same exact way as they have as town on numerous occassions. This isn't anything out of the ordinary for him. Your reasons are null, end of story.

E) Nope, there wouldn't have been any harm in it. There wouldn't have been any benefit in it either. I vote when I chose to, thanks.

F) What does that even mean? A mislynch is a lynch on town. How, exactly, is it thrown around "too liberally"? Horrid explaination of your potential scum slip. Funny, but horrid.

You are an interesting read, TL. However, after reading over the thread a few times, I need to see where this hunch takes me.

Vote: DavidParker

[Leech]

@Leech: What's up with the DavidParker vote?

Considering he's ignoring my vote, as well as answering his misinterpretation of my previous post, I'll explain. I was hoping for some sort of reaction, but it's clear I'm not going to get one until I push more.

He made a broad statement when he replaced in about kingcheese. In fact, he stated he replaced in just to nail him. He said he was going to read over the thread, and has shown no indication that he has. He then comes in and completely misreads, or misreps, what I said. He's basing his judgement on a fraction of the game, which is not enough to tell you who the scum is. You need to read the entire game, and see how things progress. Notice that he's posted since my post? He hasn't even noted that he misread the statement he tried to use to paint the scummy picture. It's because he doesn't care. He's attacking, not hunting. Scum do not need to read the thread or scumhunt. They just need the town to mislynch eachother.

His followup to his "I'll post a comment" post just seals it.

Umm, does anyone really want a case? Or can I just vote KingCheese who I'm pretty sure is scum.

Do you guys seriously not see how bad that is? He comes in and tells everyone that Kingcheese is scum. Ok, if he actually saw things that way, I could accept that. Now, however, he just receeds to asking for permission to vote without reason.

So to answer his question, no. You can't "just vote." I do want a case. You said you had one, and that kingcheese was obv-scum when you replaced in. If he was obv-scum then you should have absolutely no problem making a case. It looks, to me, like you tried to make a case then couldn't. So then you decided to see if we'd let you off just voting him "because you feel he's scum." My vote remains on you until you do two things: 1) You prove you've read the thread. 2) You make a case on kingcheese.

Until both of those conditions are met, my vote will remain on you.

There's a difference between someone "I found scummy" and someone "who I have found more scummy". OK but let me explain this right now. Maybe if you read between the lines, you'll get it.

I was reading through the thread and noticed several things you said that concerned me. Considering you really had no heat on you in the previous phase, I felt the need to point them out. Your impression of that post was that I was calling you "scummy scum scum" whereas my prime motivations were to bring up something we should all consider. Your reaction to the entire thing gave me far more scum vibes than I got from the questionable plays that bothered me in the previous phase. If I thought you were scum, I'd vote for you. If I'm getting pretty suspicious, I probably will. If I'm up in the air, I'll wait. That's how I play this game.

I am still uneasy about the way he has so far directed the flow of the game. He started the starting shotty wagon and then the Avish one. Perhaps its a good thing perhaps not, I really don't have enough experience to tell.

How have I directed the flow of the game? The game did start faster with the PL subject. I switched to Avish because I believed her to be scum. At the end of that phase, I absolutely did not want a PL due to my belief that an Avish lynch was a scum lynch. Being wrong doesn't translate to being scum. This is especially true when the player in question was really scummy, and that I've lynched scum for the exact reasons I was pushing her lynch. You guys don't have to agree or go along with anything that I say. Though, you can be sure that if you don't, I'll ask for reasons why.

Do you disagree with my #302 where I explained reasons why I believe Eggy/DP slot is Town?

I disagree. Completely.

[Leech]

He has not dropped any MAJOR scumtells, moreso, it's the way he tries to seem genuine with all of these walls to pass off as town. It's hard to explain, but I've seen this done by scum a lot before (I can link to a previous game if you guys want), and I get this same general impression from Leech.

Just glance at an ISO of me in any of my other games. I make large posts, that's just my style. A lot of people don't like it, and I try to keep things condensed, but they usually end up being long posts anyway. How is my posting style, which I've done in eleven other games on this forum, nine of which were town, a scum tell?

@DavidParker: Your entire case holds no water due to how this game started. I was the one that started the PL on Shotty, and I said that I didn't care if he was town or scum. Shotty has, in fact, self-hammered as town in LyLo before costing the town the game. There are situations where lynching someone you believe to be town is the best choice you can make. Considering TL, KC and myself have all stated that we'd lynch Shotty even if he was town...why is KC obv scum for it and TL and I aren't? Also, that would make three people obv scum, which is impossible. You really, really, need to read this game.

[Leech]

I found it very weird that you had walls upon walls against TL even opening D2 with a theory that you think that at least one scum is an experienced player...but then you move your vote to DavidParker, who hadn't even partaken in N1, also with very little mention of him beforehand. I feel like this is quite an unnatural course of action from a Townie. It seems to me that you are theorizing and slinging as much mud as possible to experienced players but then going for an easy lynch. It really made much more sense for you to vote TL since you had spent a lot of time attacking him.

You know that I post walls in games. You've seen it before, so this is a very surprising standpoint from you. Also, if I was going after an easy lynch, why would I go for Avish instead of Shotty in day 1? It took the threat of deadline to lynch Avish. I'm going after easy lynches, while actually going after the harder lynch? Considering you had recently stated that you wouldn't vote for DP, how is this an easy lynch at all? You aren't making sense.

Also, just so you're aware, I was planning on making in-depth posts about all the players in this game. Once TL started responding, though, I thought I may have hit something. As time went by, however, it appeared more like he was just in OMGUS mode, which isn't always a scum tell. How DP replaced in? That is.

Plus, all your attacks on DP don't even make sense. You are capitalizing on his apparent lazyness. Yes, DP looks like he's playing lazily, but that's more of a read on playstyle not scumminess. You went from 'I'm looking for an experienced scumbag...' to 'Let's lynch the lazy lurkerslot replacement' quite uncomfortably.

Excuse me? The point is he had SAID he was going to give the game a read and then post about it. He never followed through. I couldn't care less if he was lazy, the fact is that he's not following through with what he said he was going to. I take issue with that, especially when he does finally "make a case" every component of it applies to at least one other player as well. He has, literally, nothing on Kingcheese that at least one other player in this game isn't guilty of as well. Scum don't have to read up on the thread, and they don't have to look at the games of other players. The fact that he posted this:

Still haven't done a reread recently, but based on recent posts the scum team is kingcheese+Leech... The wifomy "ic not dying means hes scum" card settles it.

When I said this:

Typically in newbie games, one of the most experienced players gets killed. Usually it's the IC, or failing that they kill the player that seems to be "the best." The fact that Lc died, goes against that. LC is a smart player, but if the scum were going to kill for that reason I think they would have chosen someone else. This leads me to believe that the scum is composed of at least one pretty experienced player.

Proves that he's not even reading the thread beyond where he replaced in. He's just glancing, and looking for parts to pick at and attack someone, This is not how town plays this game. (With the exception of complete VI's, aka Shotty) So not only is he not following through with his promises, he's attacking players for reasons that don't even exist. His case against KC doesn't apply due to how this game started. His "case" against me is composed of him actually misreading what I posted in the thread. Scum just have to blend in, they don't have to care. He's not lazy town, he's lazy scum.

Leech: Explain the DP vote. I've kind of subtly asked this before, but now I'm outright asking.

TL: Read the first post on this page where I explained the vote. (What is with you guys and NOT READING? Seriously.)

As i stated before my case my mind's pretty made up on my read on you and I don't care too much for your response and don't plan on engaging on a "back and forth" with you.

That's why DP needs to be lynched.

If Leech is scum then I told you so. Wait, was I the only one to suspect him this whole game? Surely someone must have caught on before me.

You suspected me this whole game? Then why were you condoning a PL on day 1? Why did you open this phase, continuing to vote for Shotty? Why did you not so much as even mention me, until I refered to you?

[Leech]

I don't have a problems with the walls per se, I know you make them. However, walls imply focus and effort. And it is very weird and unnatural after all those walls against TL and the theory on experienced scum's NK choice, that you suddenly voted DP with very little mention of him prior to that.

Now that the other game's over...You mean like the walls against Rufflig in our last game? I posted a few walls towards him without voting, and had my vote on someone else at that time. I was town, right? I had stated on several occasions that I was reading up on everyone in the thread, and that I wasn't going to vote until I had done so. DP is far scummier than TL so my vote belongs there. Of course I hadn't mentioned him prior to that point, I hadn't gotten to him yet. Again I had stated clearly in my post that I hadn't read up on other players yet. That is why I didn't vote. Read that until it sinks in.

This is exactly why I think you are testing waters for a DP lynch. Players like DP exist, sometimes they are scum, sometimes they're not. You are taking DP's lack of attention in thread and muddying it up so that it looks worse than what it actually is. He explicitly stated that he still needs to do a real read however he also thinks Kingcheese is scum. Those two are not exclusive, as far as I know.

That's not what's happening. He said that he's not interested in discussing it with KC and that his vote is just going to remain there. If you are town, how are you not going to at least give the player the chance to defend? It's not just his lack of attention. It's his broken promises, lack of intention, and blatantly scummy "I'm voting for you no matter what you say, and refuse to even give you the chance to defend yourself" attitude that makes him scum.

How is DP going to say that I'm scum, when the reason he thinks that is based off of something that I didn't even say? He's basing that on completely misreading my post. I've pointed this out twice, and he's ignored it. I know he's at least read it, as when I told him I wanted him to actually post a case (which is not something I should have had to ask for in the first place) it was in the same post I brought that up. Yet, he still maintains that I'm scum for a reason that doesn't even exist. The fact that I'm the only one questioning this, seriously baffles me.

[Leech]

This:

Read between the lines. I jumped on the vote when I shouldn't have. What I should have done with what I knew was not vote shotty, but

I was still hellbent on PLing him.

Contradicts this:

YESTERDAY I THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM FOR SURE

TODAY I ONLY CALLED HIM SCUM FOR TODAY BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO SWALLOW MY PRIDE. I ADMIT TO LYING D2, NOT D1.

See the bold? If you were, keyword:

still

, hellbent on PL'ing him, then that is an indication that you were previously PL'ing him. This blatantly contradicts the first line of the second quote. If you thought he was scum for sure, it wouldn't be a policy lynch, so you wouldn't

still

be hellbent on policy lynching, it would have become a policy lynch at that point in time.

Also, it's pretty unbelievable that you'd like about this in the first place. You could have just as easily said: "You know what? We should policy lynch Shotty in this phase." That would read as genuine considering so many people have said that in this game. The fact that you lied, when you didn't have to, is extremely troubling.

As much as I support a Leech vote, I'll hammer if needed.

With deadline still miles away, no hammer is needed at the moment. Why are you so willing to hammer with so much time remaining? Also, why do you support a vote on me, again? I still continue to strictly see "OMGUS he's questioning me!" as reasoning from you. Everything else is completely null. Your point about WoT's is null as that happens every game I play in. Vas can attest to that, as can a 10 second glance at any ISO from any game in my wiki. You're also not really paying attention to posts. You asked me to explain my vote on DP when I already had several posts before you requested it. How do you support a lynch on a player that you clearly aren't even paying attention to? How are you willing to hammer "if needed" on a player that you JUST asked for a summary on? Why are you willing to hammer based on a summary of a case instead of reading it for yourself?

Now, what to do? I have a scumread on both DP and TL. TL's really starting to outshine DP though. He said he's willing to hammer a total of

5 minutes

after requesting a summary of the case against KC. Really? In that five minutes he's decided that he'll hammer someone if needed? That's so terribad it's unbelievable.

Unvote, Vote: TheLonging

I'm seeing a TL/DP scumpair here.

[Leech]

TL, I'm not an idiot I'd ask that you do not reply to me as such. The entire childish bold rant at the beginning of your post can be summed up with a point you were just trying to make:

So should I take your word?...

I find it amusing how you can retort with a comment about not taking someone's word for something that can be easily proven, yet you are pretty much demanding that I take your word that you are being truthful. You can bold and capitalize it as much as you want, the fact is that you've admitted to lying about your motivations in this phase. Worse is that you are actually contradicting yourself nearly every time you post.

A) Because I think we have had adequate time to discuss stuff? Also considering next week it'll be incredibly hard for me to be here due to Thanksgiving?
B) Misrep, not voting me when voting me had no harm to it, making big walls to seem big and important when a lot of it is crap, not reading, voting DP for no reason (initially), and when you do provide reasoning, it's not even THAT good. I've said every one of these reasons but the last one, which I just added now. There you go. Again, you're misrepping me AND you're not reading.
C) So should I take your word?... or about the 2 to 5 games I have had experiences in about bad WoT's? Because again, I don't think you've noticed that I said I HAD EXPERIENCE IN IT.
D) This I admit to.
E) I am paying attention, but I do read you know. I did have those reasons before, I just added that last one upon reading.
F) >implying I'm not reading KC after I asked for the summary, even though I stated I was reading it anyways

A) Considering the votes are so wide-spread, there are plenty of other people that should provide input before someone considers hammering. Also, unless I'm mistaken, the deadline isn't even next week, it's the week after. So, I fail to see your point there.
B) I had a reasons for voting DP which I've explained in depth. When I initially voted for him, it would have made my goal worthless to state at the time of voting why I was doing so. Considering he ignored it, entirely, there was no sense in refraining from explaining it. When you're trying to see reactions to votes, it can be detrimental to post your motivations for doing so. Being an experienced player, yourself, I'm sure you understand this.
C) No, I'm not asking you to take my word. You can easily just click the wiki link under my name, click any game in it and ISO me. Just focus on post length. You don't have to READ the posts, just look at my average post size.
E) You were paying enough attention that you had to ask for a summary of the case against him? If you believed enough in the case on him to justify a hammer, why didn't YOU post a summary of the reasons you'd be willing to do so?
F) Wow, you read all you needed to read to be willing to hammer in a total of five minutes? Why should I believe you're reading it, when you're asking for a summary?

Then again, your avatar DOES explain why you're refusing to read in order to fuel your agenda.

It always cracks me up when someone accuses me of not reading, when that very same player has actually missed reading things in the thread. Such as asking for explanations that players have already given. I read every post in the thread, and I understand them. Not believing something does not equate to not reading. It's rather ironic that you're commenting on my avatar (Which is clearly labled "Arrogant Bastard ALE" it's my favorite brew you'd probably understand this if you read it) when you are being arrogant to the point that you are claiming that I couldn't possibly be disagreeing, that I mustn't have read it in the first place.

I'm making my vote stick on you Leech.

KC doesn't deserve my hammer vote.

I won't move this vote for the rest of the day.

I'm glad we're in agreement that KC doesn't deserve your hammer vote after so little time actually musing over it. I say that locking your vote on one player is horrible play, but whatever keeps your aquatic vessel buoyant.

Happy? I'm sure you are. Now please, for the sake of my own sanity, and for the sake of improving your reading skills, READ. Because I know you're going to misrep me, so I'll just see how bad you read this post.

Actually, I am. I'd much rather you have your vote on me, than hammer someone without providing any reasoning of your own after only, apparently, five minutes of consideration. I have to tell you, though, it never gets old hearing you say how I'm misrepping you. You've admit to lying in this phase. Why you expect us to just accept that, is far beyond me. You've called me an easy mislynch, while voting for me, and just expected people to accept that it was a mistype and not a scumslip. You're saying WoT's = Bad, even though I use them in ALL MY GAMES. This is very easily proven just by looking at any one of them. In fact, I'm not even going to allow you to use that excuse anymore:

Just click the link and scroll the page. I'm not asking anyone to read any of these games. Just note post length. These link straight to my ISO, so there is literally no effort involved here.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... elect=7577 <- Best example, my walls were excessive in this one. Guess what? Town.
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... elect=7577 <- Town again, still posting WoT's? Wow, imagine that!
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... elect=7577 <- Oh, lookie town AGAIN using WoT's. Could this WoT point against me be fabricated? I think so!

There's 3 examples linking to previous games of my ISO. I was town in every game I just linked. While I do post the same way as scum, this is proof that posting style alone does not dictate alignment. The points that TL refuses to give up, are extremely weak and can easily be debunked.

So, in closing, you still don't have a single legit reason to vote for me. Though, I'd much rather your vote remains there, instead of hammering a player that you have even less of a reason to vote for. You are 100% correct on that notion.

[Leech]

Vox, I do like your player analysis, but I think you're overlooking a few things.

1. Your point about KC stating he feels that Shotty is town, while entertaining a potential scum pair including him isn't really scummy. When I read through posts I look for potential town/scum motivations from what each player is saying and trying to figure out which of the two scenarios is more likely. So entertaining the thought of a potential scum-pair, even if it relates to a town-read player, is simply entertaining the thought of your town read being wrong. That isn't a direct contradiction, rather taking all things into consideration. You may be right, but it is a farcry from a solid scum tell.

2. There are very valid reasons that a player will keep their reasoning to themselves. I did in this game originally with my vote on DP. Many times you will have a suspicion that you want to see grow, before you bring it up. The reason a player will do this, is to try and confirm that suspicion before having it pre-emptively dismissed by the player. There are pressure and reaction votes in games where voting without reason is a perfectly acceptable town play. This is a hard concept for many players to accept, and it's one that took me a while to adapt to as well. Witholding reasoning can be beneficial to the town in certain circumstances. However, you should always give your reasoning when it's requested. That much, I agree with.

3. I do see that some of the things that TL post can have town motivations. However, you seriously do have to look hard to find them. The fact is, I find it fare more likely that he's scum. He's actually scumslipped once by calling my lynch an "easy mislynch" while voting for me. He's also continually ignoring the fact that walls of text aren't scummy, especially when a player uses them in every game. Also, if you glance at his wiki, he's used many walls in his own games as well. He's also used them in this very game. So why is it scummy when I do it, but not when he does? This selective reasoning and applying it strictly in cases where it benefits him, is completely scummy. If you have to look deep to find town motivation, what does that tell you? Also, when you find someone posting content that you simply cannot find a town motivation for, that should take priority over deeply nested town meanings that you have to actually make an effort to find.

You're correct actually, you are the easiest to mislynch. Hey, remember when I was talking about people who might be scum? I was referring to you.

vote: leech

Scumslip, no town motivation to be found.

E) What was the harm in voting me and looking? Any harm? At all?

Telling me to vote, without looking at other suspects first. No town motivation to be found.

F) Mislynch is thrown around too liberally these days, a mistake on my part. You are scum.

Mislynch only has one meaning, therefore cant be used incorrectly. Follows it up with a comment that makes not sense in context. No town motivation to be found.

TODAY I ONLY CALLED HIM SCUM FOR TODAY BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO SWALLOW MY PRIDE. I ADMIT TO LYING D2, NOT D1.

He's saying his personal pride is more important than winning the game? Why was he lying in the first place? Everyone in this game had entertained the thought of the PL on shotty. The fact is earlier on in the phase he continually maintained that he had a scum read on Shotty when I was questioning him. If you look back at his ISO 42 his entire argument was that he can tell viScum from viTown, and that shotty was viScum. There was simply no town reason to lie about that, at all. Look at the very last line of that post. "I was referring to you." No he wasn't, in the post immediately before that he said it was KC or VV. Funny how I question him and it all of a sudden changes. Why are we supposed to believe that TL was lying JUST when he said he was lying? Why, exactly, are we believing a claimed liar at all? There is no town motivation to any of this.

DP/TL: One if not both of the scum is in that pair. I support a lynch of either of these two.

[Leech]

You are wrong. There is no reason to request a hammer at this point of the phase. While that was an appeal to emotion, you are correct about that at least, not all of them come from scum. Town are just as likely to use appeals to try and get out of being lynched. When what he's saying is actually the truth, I really don't see why you'd just brush it off as an AtE while ignoring the rest. Oh, wait, that logic I'm using only applies if you're town. Carry on with your strawman, scum.

[Leech]

Leech's #349: This is not inaccurate. However, I'm Town in this game(yes yes, WIFOM), so why shouldn't I open my mind to you-scum in this game? Anyway, your explanation to the DP vote is accurate. *comments, scroll down.*

Where have I ever tried to avoid people suspecting me? In fact, my assessment that at least one member of the scum is an experienced player, actually includes the possibility of me being scum. I never discourage scumhunting, even if I'm the subject. Towns that rule out suspects as potential scum, lose games. I will point out, that you're side-stepping to address concerns that were never made.

I do think that TL has made a townier reaction by flat out admitting to his mistake. Leech, do you think that TL is acknowledging the mistake because he's scum with no way out? What do you think of the possibility of this being a Townie reaction?

He had to answer for his actions to justify his vote on me. If he still maintained that he had a scum read on Shotty he couldn't really justify a vote on me, because the only reason he can come up with for me being scum is that I post walls. The fact that he's changing his story is in no way a town tell. Hell, he's not even admitting a mistake, he's admitting that he lied. In fact, he said "I admit to lying D2, not D1." That's not even a statement reassuring us that he's telling the truth, that's simply saying he hasn't ADMIT to lying in the previous phase of the game. I do not believe this is a townie reaction, because a townie wouldn't have had to lie in the first place. Considering so many people were for a sheer PL on Shotty, he didn't have to keep lying saying he believed he was scum, when he could have just as easily said that he was endorsing a PL at that point. Instead of being truthful he decided to lie? Why would a townie deceive in that manner?

I cannot justify a Town-TL for those reasons. It's far, far more likely that he's scum than town.

Vas, one comment you made in this game is extremely troubling to me, all things considered:

Heya Leech! It should be interesting how on-going meta would affect this game~

When this game had just started, I wrote that off as just a note that we were in two games at the same time. However, considering you flipped scum that statement has many more implications. I'd like to explain to me, exactly what you meant by that.

Guys I have limmitted acess because the fairmont charges through the ass for internet usage, I want KC lynched please some one, drop the hammer.

I really, really wish I stuck to PL'ing you in the previous phase. You, again, add nothing to this game while asking for someone to hammer? That's so horrible, that I'm struggling to find sufficient adjectives. For anyone reading this, never hammer because someone else requests it. Only hammer if you believe in the wagon, and believe you're going to lynch scum. Also we still have 8 days, we don't need to hammer now. Also, limited access, aside why were you less active in this game than all your other's before now? You never really contribute much to games in the first place but your lack of activity in this, particular, game is abnormal. Even for you.

[Leech]

Sorry for disappearing, ever since thanksgiving I was struggling to get reliable internet access. I hate having to be replaced with a passion.

Worse yet, is how far off I was in this game. Vas and AV did a pretty nice job. Vas had me suspicious with his buddying of DP for what I considered no real reason at all, but I never considered him much of an actual scum candidate. AV was off of my radar most of the time as well.

One thing I really want to address is something I said countless times in this game. If a player has a certain style of play, that they have used in every game they have played in, it is not a scum tell. I spent so much time arguing against the fact that posting walls = scumtell. Tells are based on the individual, and are not always black and white.