Newbie 1022 - Game Over

[Avish]

Hi guys! I'm excited to be playing my first game on this forum. I've played 2 games on another forum and am at the beginning of my third. I've really enjoyed the games I've played so far and that led me to join this site. So far my personal record is two wins no losses, but I can't take credit for that...my teammates were good and experienced players. Please be patient with me if I don't pick up on the lingo around here, although I'm keeping up so far.

----------------------------------------------

I am interested to see how this shotty will defend himself, so for now I think I'll add a little more pressure by:

Vote Lynch drmyshottyizsik

Jeez, did I spell that right? I shoulda copypasta'd.

[Avish]

Sorry. I was so tweaked about spelling his name I used the format used on my other site. O.o

I shall attempt to be more careful in the future.

Vote: drmyshottyizsik

Did I get it this time?


I actually dislike the concept of voting for someone just because he's unpopular. Mind you, I did make note that some folks have what appears to be legitimate complaints against him, but still...

However, the fact that this is Wednesday evening and dude has not shown up to defend himself leaves me rather unimpressed.

[Avish]

My question is this:

How long is a ridiculous amount of time to not bother checking into a game around here?

[Avish]

@AurorusVox

Yes, but TheLonging has, in fact, checked in. Furthermore, he checked in before I made my inquiry. My initial mis-vote was simply intended to place more pressure on this guy about whom people have negative things to say. It's only now that I'm wondering where he is and if his absence is normal. I simply don't know how things work around here. It's very different from the other forum where I have experience. And sure, he could have IRL priorities...

that's why I'm asking

. Games clearly move a lot slower here than I'm accustomed to them moving. I'm not complaining, mind, I'm just trying to get a handle on all this stuff that is new to me.

As far as that L-1 thing, when I read it myself I assumed he was assuming that I would change my vote to a valid one. Which I did. Didn't I?

[Avish]

@Vox

Fair enough. His absence is just an afterthought. It didn't have anything to do with my vote, really. In my mind "unimpressed" is not as severe as "concerned". If I was trying to use his absence as a reason to lynch him, than you would be correct. That isn't really what I'd intended. If I'm guilty of anything, it's sloppy posting. As I said, I don't know the norm around here. Maybe prods from the mod are business as usual.

Re: The L-1 vs. L-2 thing. I'm not really following. New jargon is fun to choke down in a hurry.

[Avish]

I could at least discern the terms. XD What I am unsure about is how valuable the placement really is. Especially under these circumstances during Day 1. Then again, I have never played a game this small. It is something of an adjustment.

[Avish]

@Vas

I come from NarutoFan. If you aren't familiar with it, it is obviously an anime forum. Unsurprisingly, the largest subsection is concerned with Naruto, but there are many other subsections: Bleach, One Piece, anime/manga/comics in general, computer graphics, art and culture, and a social subforum. Mafia games are a tiny blip of activity there.

Are Page 2 L-1 wagons a norm there? Attempting a comparison between those games and these games is an exercise in futility. People usually vote no lynch on Day 1, unless there is an unpopular person playing...then he gets done away with, simply for being unpopular. The smallest game I have ever played was 25 players. The Day 1 phase usually lasts a lot less than an actual day. People don't start trying to figure anything out until they see who died in the Night 1 phase. If a day phase lasts more than 24 hours, people start gripping at the mod. Night phases are usually even shorter. Within 3 hours of the game start we are usually on the 5th or 6th page. At least. Do you see what I"m getting at? It's a completely different vibe.

Perhaps having someone at L-1 this early is reckless. I'm not really expecting anyone to...hammer(?) him, though. I voted for him because I wanted to hear his response to the accusations that he is harmful to the town regardless of his alignment. What I object to is voting someone out simply because you don't like him personally. Voting someone out because he is harmful to the town no matter what is a different matter, as I see it. He has made an appearance, so I think that the prod might have worked. If he simply didn't notice that the game was already moving, that's understandable. As I already stated, his absence was an afterthought and not my reason for voting for him.


By the way: I am a woman. My gender is clearly listed under my avatar. As such, I would prefer to be referred to in the feminine pronoun. Thanks.

[Avish]

Out of all I typed, that is what you respond to????


I would say that I have a love/hate relationship with Naruto. You may have missed my saying so in my previous post, but that forum has a lot more to offer than just Naruto.

[Avish]

@shotty

You say scum always tries to push PL on you on Day 1. Are you claiming that as a literal fact? That it always turns out to be scum that tries to PL you? Or are you exaggerating in an attempt to clear yourself?

More importantly, what do you have to say about the allegations against you? It has been claimed that you are always VI and anti-town. It has been claimed that even as townie you do more harm than good. What do you say about that?

Give me a reason to change my vote.

[Avish]

@shotty

And the allegations against you?

[Avish]

@Avish:

Another IC player in another game me an' Leech are in have outlined that the main difference between MS and other sites is that other sites rely on Night play(via actions) but this site relies on Day play(via: analysis of votes, statements etc.) and a good reliable tell is blatant opportunism. I think that you have displayed such, with your L-1 vote to drmyshotty while saying that you aren't in agreement of voting the 'unpopular people'.

Your assessment of day play v. night play is correct. That different mindset is something I frankly am struggling to wrap my brain around. Furthermore, this small game provides another mindset I am struggling to wrap my brain around. The other game I am currently playing has 40 players, among them are two mafias, and a serial killer. I am accustomed to the notion of "acceptable losses", which may not be applicable here.

Opportunism, eh? Not hardly. When I made that statement it was intended to be a warning. I meant that I would quickly pull my vote if I thought that the complaints against this player were not valid, but rather an excuse to exclude someone simply because he isn't liked. This L-2, L-1 thing is new to me. In the kind of games I've played such a thing is not considered significant. I didn't even realize I was doing something noteworthy. I had intended to vote for him before, so I simply did so again.

I've asked shotty to defend himself, but he refuses to do so...refuses to even acknowledge the arguments against him. I find that suspicious. And you, I feel like you are splitting hairs trying to form a wagon against me. I'm starting to find that suspicious, as well. There is something you should know, however:

I have no fear.

My overriding goal in this game is simple: I want the town to win.

Whether or not I, personally, survive to the end of the game is of secondary importance. If I die, either because I am lynched or because I am killed in the night, I just hope the townies can use my death to root out scum. At least, that has been my philosophy in the games I've played. That's not to say I'm willing to just throw my life away, or anything, I just mean that the greater good is more important than me as an individual player. If that is the wrong ideal around here, please say so. After all, you are here to "teach" us how the game is played here, are you not?

[Avish]

I was addressing Vas. The front page says Vas is IC. I read the thing wiki thing on IC. Says he's supposed to show the ropes without pulling punches. So, yes it is a teaching role. It's a teaching role, plus his actual game role. Seems like quite a handful, but that is how it goes.

[Avish]

This isn't conducive to scumhunting at all.

Nope. It isn't. And it's exactly what I was afraid of. Shotty is proving the allegations against him correct, as I see it. At this point, if he is lynched and turns out to be townie, it's going to look bad for me. I realize that. There's nothing I can do. Vas has set me up for a fall very smoothly. Complaining that I seemingly contradicted myself by voicing a reluctance to vote for unpopular people, while ignoring the part that came next in which I added that there did seem to be valid complaints against this guy is a neat trick. Even I did not notice at first.


Anyhoo, I did not log on to say that. I came by to inform everybody that I will not be able to be on tomorrow. It's my birthday.

Now, I'm not telling you that to dissuade from lynching me or anything...I just want everybody to understand that I have a valid reason for not being around. You all gotta do what you gotta do and for my part, I am not going to take personally anything that happens in a game. I'll see you fine folk the day after tomorrow

if I'm still alive.

[Avish]

I'm back. Had a bit to read through, but I shall attempt to address the concerns regarding me.

First off is my "defensiveness". I can see why you guys would feel I'm being overly defensive, but take a minute to look at it from my perspective. I only have one vote against me, but my statements have been called into suspicion several times. Every time someone has challenged me on something I said, I have tried to explain what I meant.

However

I feel like my explanations have been largely ignored.

Someone raises an eyebrow because I said "X".
I explain that I mean "Y".
That person simply repeats that "X" is suspicious.
No one takes my explanation into account.

If someone said that my explanation didn't hold water, or didn't explain enough, at least I would have something to work with. I feel that for all the nitpicking I am being very selectively nitpicked. Of course, I realize that the game is about nitpicking, I'm not complaining about

that

, it's just that I'm starting to feel that I'm wasting my time trying to defend myself because no one is listening to my defense. I would find such selective behavior suspicious, except that more than two people have done it. At least three of us (including myself, obviously) know damn well I am innocent. The other four are as blind to me as I am to them. So THAT is why I feel defensive.

I shall try, once again, to approach the two items from that one fateful post that seems so problematic.

Regarding my impatience to see shotty post: To be honest even I wasn't sure at first why I felt that way. I didn't even notice that TheLonging had only just posted. Now that a little time has passed it seems freaking obvious: I wasn't sitting around waiting for what TheLonging had to say about himself! I voted for shotty because I wanted to hear what he had to say about this whole policy lynch thing. I voted for him in the first place to try to force a reaction out of him. I didn't give a damn about other players, my interest was piqued by that one who had been challenged. If anything, I just wanted to add a little extra pressure on him.

Regarding the "unpopularity" controversy: I simply meant it as a warning that I wasn't committed to a policy lynch. I didn't believe anyone was going to just up and hammer the guy with no warning. It popped into my head after yet another guy voted to policy lynch shotty and I really started to wonder about the reality of such a thing. One thing I have already said, yet its been ignored, is that there are two ways of being unpopular:

If people want to policy lynch him because they believe he's harmful to the town no matter what he rolled, than that's a legitimate reason for a policy lynch.
If people want to policy lynch him just because they dislike him personally...find him annoying or whatever...than that is NOT a legitimate reason for a policy lynch in my mind.

Furthermore, with the addition of one more member to the wagon, I really started to look at the

reality

of policy lynching someone. I hopped on the wagon just to get a reaction out of someone. Now, however, it seems possible. I'm of two minds about it. I don't know if a policy lynch that turned out to be a townie would really be good for the town. I'm concerned about the notion of a "harmful" townie, but I'm also concerned about giving the mafia a free kill. I do not know which is really worse. I've been trying to figure it out. Perhaps, the people who are actively supporting the policy lynch wagon could say something about how lynching a townie VI is better for the town.

So my remark: I said that I disliked lynching unpopular people, then I said that people seemed to have a legitimate concern. My point is, I don't know which one is more important. My desire to give unpopular players a chance or the risk that such a person presents. Shotty says it's something mafia always does to him. However, there are 4 people on this wagon. We. Can't. All. Be. Mafia.

My responses to Eggy's responses:

1. I've seen it. Perhaps. He has been uncooperative. King and I both have gone out of our way trying to get him to directly address the VI charges and he refuses to address them. He refuses to even acknowledge the questions. I don't know if that's scum behavior or if it's VI behavior, but isn't that the problem the others have raised? That it's impossible to tell if someone is scum or VI?

2. Maybe the others, but not me. This is my first game. I know no one. I just want the town to be strong.

3. Fair enough. Watch away.


Assuming that I don't get lynched, I'd advise the cop to scan me (if we have one). I have nothing to hide.

------------------------------------------------

In other news:

Thanks, Vas, for the b-day wishes.

Kudos, Vox, for reading carefully enough to notice my womanly desire to be referred to in the feminine pronoun.

[Avish]

I think that the reasons that Leech and TheLonging proposed when placing their votes made it quite clear that it's a policy lynch of the former type.

I know that it's

supposed

to be a policy lynch of the former type. But, let's be honest, if it was a policy lynch of the latter type would you just flat out say so? I wouldn't think so. You aren't going to get a lot of support from noobs (like me) with a vote like that. If you accuse the dude of being dangerous, on the other hand, than you have a chance. And I did go along with it, after all. That's why I wanted to hear from Shotty so badly. I wanted to see if he would claim that he isn't VI at all and that these guys just don't like him and blah, blah, blah. He has failed to deliver, which does not make me think well of him.

By the way, that's the universal "you". I wasn't addressing you, Vox, specifically.


Thanks for the summery, I shall ponder all that thoroughly.


One last question: This is not the first time "self-hammering" has been brought up. Would someone really do that? I'm guessing so, since it is claimed that Shotty has done so in the past. Why? Why would anyone do that?

[Avish]

Darling Vas:

A little mockery seeing I? Interesting.

Dearest Avish:

Someone raises an eyebrow because I said "X".
I explain that I mean "Y".
That person simply repeats that "X" is suspicious.
No one takes my explanation into account.

It is a bit difficult to take "Y" into account especially when "Y" is a big bowl of WIFOM-stew. I know that you think that may have been a reasonable explanation, but you really can't prove that it is what you are honestly thinking because scum can and will make excuses like that.

WIFOM...is a bit hard to expound upon. I'd point you to the handy-dandy Wiki article. Basically, Town should try to avoid this. In fact, one of my favorite scum tactics is to drown Town with WIFOM and cause as much chaos as possible.

I suppose I see your point, but how else am I supposed to respond? I guess, in my mind, you have to look at what I said originally and see if my explanation seems to fit what I had said before. And what I've said after. And so forth.

Also, to address the issue once again, you're complaint was that I voiced a reluctance to vote for an unpopular person while voting for an unpopular person. What do you make of the second sentence there? The one where I said that people seemed to have actual reasons:

I actually dislike the concept of voting for someone just because he's unpopular.

Mind you, I did make note that some folks have what appears to be legitimate complaints against him, but still..

This statement is WIFOM too!:

Assuming that I don't get lynched, I'd advise the cop to scan me (if we have one). I have nothing to hide.

Outside of Rome, that's gonna get you big flak. Expect someone to scream 'Godfather' in about three posts.

But regardless, I do think that a brave statement like that wouldn't come from a raw newbie scum. Hmm...

I'll have to mull over this for a while. I can't decide if you're being genuine or not. Your post reads genuine but... the pre-emptiveness of coming from very little pressure makes me think otherwise.

I thought there was no Godfather in this game. Furthermore, if the cop gets roleblocked, he doesn't get an incorrect reading, he simply gets no reading. Correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, I cannot be the Godfather...for there is no Godfather. I would not have said it in a game where even the possibility of a Godfather exists.

As far as the preemptiveness, I'm not sure what else to say about it. I think that anything I say would just rate as more WIFOM in your book.

Other newbies need to generate content.

This. At least I am doing something, even if I'm doing it wrong. Heh. I feel bad, I've been so concerned with proving my own innocence that I haven't really been trying to get a read on anyone else. Even the attention I've paid to Shotty has not been very thorough. That is not the way I should be operating. I intend to go back to page 1 and see what I can glean from everybody else.

[Avish]

Crap. I totally messed up my quoting in that post. I hope it doesn't cause any confusion. Clearly, I should have previewed before I submitted, but I didn't. Disregard that and look at this:


Darling Vas:

A little mockery seeing I? Interesting.

Dearest Avish:

Someone raises an eyebrow because I said "X".
I explain that I mean "Y".
That person simply repeats that "X" is suspicious.
No one takes my explanation into account.

It is a bit difficult to take "Y" into account especially when "Y" is a big bowl of WIFOM-stew. I know that you think that may have been a reasonable explanation, but you really can't prove that it is what you are honestly thinking because scum can and will make excuses like that.

WIFOM...is a bit hard to expound upon. I'd point you to the handy-dandy Wiki article. Basically, Town should try to avoid this. In fact, one of my favorite scum tactics is to drown Town with WIFOM and cause as much chaos as possible.

I suppose I see your point, but how else am I supposed to respond? I guess, in my mind, you have to look at what I said originally and see if my explanation seems to fit what I had said before. And what I've said after. And so forth.

Also, to address the issue once again, you're complaint was that I voiced a reluctance to vote for an unpopular person while voting for an unpopular person. What do you make of the second sentence there? The one where I said that people seemed to have actual reasons:

I actually dislike the concept of voting for someone just because he's unpopular.

Mind you, I did make note that some folks have what appears to be legitimate complaints against him, but still..

This statement is WIFOM too!:

Assuming that I don't get lynched, I'd advise the cop to scan me (if we have one). I have nothing to hide.

Outside of Rome, that's gonna get you big flak. Expect someone to scream 'Godfather' in about three posts.

But regardless, I do think that a brave statement like that wouldn't come from a raw newbie scum. Hmm...

I'll have to mull over this for a while. I can't decide if you're being genuine or not. Your post reads genuine but... the pre-emptiveness of coming from very little pressure makes me think otherwise.

I thought there was no Godfather in this game. Furthermore, if the cop gets roleblocked, he doesn't get an incorrect reading, he simply gets no reading. Correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore, I cannot be the Godfather...for there is no Godfather. I would not have said it in a game where even the possibility of a Godfather exists.

As far as the preemptiveness, I'm not sure what else to say about it. I think that anything I say would just rate as more WIFOM in your book.

Other newbies need to generate content.

This. At least I am doing something, even if I'm doing it wrong. Heh. I feel bad, I've been so concerned with proving my own innocence that I haven't really been trying to get a read on anyone else. Even the attention I've paid to Shotty has not been very thorough. That is not the way I should be operating. I intend to go back to page 1 and see what I can glean from everybody else.

[Avish]

So what, exactly are you implying? I believe that TL and I are the only ones that have played with Shotty. We have both stated that we are policy lynching due to his tendency to ruin games regardless of his alignment. So, are you suggesting that either of us are lying? If so I can link you to the last game I PL'd him in. Also, the last sentence does not make any sense. You say you wouldn't get support from you? Your vote is on Shotty. If you are actually doubting that he's being PL'd for "right" reasons that you've stated, then you are still supporing it by leaving your vote there. If you don't think that players are PL'ing for the reasons you would disagree with, why the hell did you bring it up in the first place? That quote is one giant contradiction.

I was implying exactly what you think I was implying. It's nothing personal, but I don't know you guys. I don't know if you would lie. Why would I? Mind you, that was back at the top of page 2. If it soothes your ego any, I now realize that you were most likely being completely truthful. Shotty himself was kind enough to back up your argument against him. There is no contradiction. I stated to begin with that I was voting for him to see what he would say about himself. I left it there for the same reason. I wasn't voting for him for PL reasons to begin with. If I thought you were just being mean, I'd yank my vote. Now, however, I can say I've officially decided to remain on the wagon for PL reasons. I practically begged him to give me a reason to change my vote. King did the same. He won't cooperate. I'm done thinking about him.

It's not just the Godfather thing. You're also trying to direct PR's, which would have required them outing their role, solely to back your claim of township. I'd rather a potential cop investigates someone that they believe to be scum, rather than investigate someone just to see if they are town like they say. Trying to direct PR's in any game is a huge no-no.

Huh. Well, you've got a point there. I didn't think of it that way. I figured the cop wouldn't be obvious about whatever info he gained. Now that you put it like that, though, I can plainly see the problems. The mafia could look for anyone backing me up, especially if that person changed his mind, and target him. So I take it back, if the cop does go ahead and scan me keep yo mouth shut! I was also thinking that the doc could protect him if he slipped up, but there's no guarantee we even have one. I'm not used to not knowing what we have to work with. I don't like it. Not one bit.

As far as the preemptiveness, I'm not sure what else to say about it. I think that anything I say would just rate as more WIFOM in your book.

How is someone taking pre-emptive measures against attacks that haven't been made yet, anything remotely similar to wifom?

Beats me.

I feel bad, I've been so concerned with proving my own innocence that I haven't really been trying to get a read on anyone else.

Your innocence shouldn't be important to you. You are placing your survival into a category of higher importance than the town winning the game. If you are town, you win the game with the town regardless. Scum have to worry about their survival, the town truly does not. Town victory > Your survival.

Regardless of that, you should have the town considering you as a suspect at all times. I want each and every one of you to be extremely suspicious of me, for example. If you aren't, then you should be. The only way the town wins is by suspecting, putting pressure, and demanding answers from everyone. If any player, trusts any other player, at this phase of the game then that trust can result in a town loss.

Now I'm not saying act scummy, but you shouldn't actively make efforts to get others to believe you are town. When you go out of your way to give off that vibe, you are being misleading. When you get caught being misleading, in that manner, then you will have a hard time defending that. Trying to prove your own innocence is the fastest way to get mislynched if you are town. Truely town motivaded actions can be defended. You need not worry about that.

I know. That's why I feel bad. It's not my innocence or survival that has me bugged. I'm afraid I am becoming a scum shield. It seems to me that I am the one people are most mistrustful of at this point. I'm not worried about dying. But if I don't and people keep focusing on me so much, than that seems problematic to me. I realize everybody should be under suspicion, but I've garnered quite a bit of it. But I now realize I've reflexively fallen into the trap of trying to prove my innocence.

And, haha, I'm still doing it! The play style here is sooooo different from what I'm used to. I'm a loud-mouth and I dug myself a hole and I've spent the whole game trying to get out of it. Shame on me.


Thing is I don't have any solid reads on anyone. Eggy, lurking and making snarky comments here and there seems a bit scummy to me. Others have said the same and if he responded I must have missed it.

Vas, Leech, and Vox I'm not sure about. They're undoubtedly doing the best they can to play their roles, but they're also being professional and explaining things in a neutral way, so I'm having problems with them.

Longing seems like a loud mouth, but it would be highly hypocritical for me to hold that against him.

Chief just doesn't seem interested in the game.

Shotty...well, is living up to expectations.

[Avish]

The point is that most people don't do it (as town). That's why it's an anti-town thing to do, because if you are town, then the only person you know to be town for sure is quite often yourself. Hammering yourself is playing against your own win condition. Scum self-hammering is a different matter. It's a debatable topic which you can find more about in the Mafia Discussion forum. I've also seen both town and scum self-vote (i.e. not hammer). I dislike self-voters, but experience has taught me that it's not a valid scumtell in itself :\

Still not following, but I'll try to figure it all out elsewhere when I have the time.

Be very careful when you're talking about PRs. It is not a good idea to discuss them in case someone is role-fishing you. If you don't theorise about PRs you can't accidentally crumb (reveal your role).

Noted. My little idea with the cop has already been debunked anyway.

Avish is definitely paranoid, and it's just a case of whether this is paranoid town or paranoid scum. She's been reasoning her stances well enough, so I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I might be a little biased here, because in my first non-newbie game, I went to L-2 in RVS and was accused of being jumpy - which was apparently a scumtell under pressure, except for the fact that I was actually town.

Paranoid townie.

[Avish]

Out of curiosity, how many Newbie games have you not-newbie guys played. You know, as not-newbies...

[Avish]

I'm not sure whether or not I believe that. There were already votes on Shotty, your vote wouldn't make him say anything about himself that the previous votes wouldn't. Considering he'd already recieved two votes to Policy Lynch that would be more than enough to make him try and change up his act, if he had any intentions of doing so. Voting at that time, for that reason, just doesn't make sense.

And I felt like yet another vote would be yet more pressure. What's the problem?

Vas, Leech, and Vox I'm not sure about. They're undoubtedly doing the best they can to play their roles, but they're also being professional and explaining things in a neutral way, so

I'm having problems with them.

Isn't that interesting? Why would players in the game explaining things in a "neutral way" give you problems? I don't like the word "problem" here. Had you said that it was giving you problems

reading

us, then it would have an entirely different meaning. You indicated that you were having problems with us, as players, for that reason. That statement has far greater implications.

It's interesting that you don't seem to realize that what I meant was that I'm having trouble reading you guys. Intentional or not? That is the question. After all, I started out that bit saying:

Thing is I don't have any solid reads on anyone.

I would have thought it was self-evident that everything I said about everybody would point to the fact that I have no solid leads. Or I didn't. Your "suspicion" has far greater implications.

This is relevant, how? This knoweledge will not change your perspective on how players are playing in this game. You did not ask for links to games to cross-reference playstyles or anything of the sort. This was merely an attempt to take the discussion in a different direction while adding nothing of substance.

It happens to be extremely relevant to my understanding of gameplay on this forum in general. Isn't that the point of newbie games? To learn stuff? And I have learned tons of stuff.

Unvote, Vote: Avish

Your pre-emptive defending, extremely opportunistic vote on Shotty, unbelievable explaination of that vote, extremely odd word choice, and your fluff makes you the best lynch for this phase.

I'm just wacky. One way or another the truth will out.

Well, I'd love to policy lynch Shotty for his playstyle in this game. However, I wasn't really "determined" to do so in the beginning. My intent was to try and build a wagon, and see where it went. As it stands, Avish's jump on it reeks of opportunistic scum. While, experienced scum would probably keep him around to confuse the town, newbie scum would probably take advantage of that early lynch. In fact in the game I linked above, both newb scum hopped on it. A Shotty lynch isn't a bad lynch, but a scum lynch is a far better one.

Would you now. I wonder. You were not the first to vote for shotty, but you were the first to make it a PL. All that "try and build a wagon and see where it went" bit smacks strongly of retcon. Even if Shotty doesn't get lynched his credibility has been shot. Just as planned? For now you've jumped on Vas's argument against me and added a few things that, frankly, seem a bit frivolous. Your supposed misunderstanding of what I meant when I said I had a "problem" with you three doesn't really seem likely. It should be perfectly clear that I was referring to my read on you. Your irritation at me asking a seemingly random question in this, a newbie game, seems overblown. So what if a newbie is asking a random question in a newbie game?

Now I'm thinking that you took care of a townie without needing to actually kill him and now you're going after the townie whom other people are on the fence about. Cleverly done.

This gives me a feeling of frustrated townie.

More like clueless townie, really.

Then

she

goes and says the things Leech brought up in his last post, which give me a scummy feeling. Right now, I get more of a defensive scum feel from

her

than a frustrated townie feel, so I will Unvote; Vote: Avish. This is L-2. Would like to see responses from

her

to Leech's points.

For now, anyway.

Pardon me, but I edited your post for accuracy. Because I'm a wacky girl and I care about things like that.

Regarding the latest arguments against me, I'd urge you to go back and look at the actual posts they were taken from. Did you misunderstand what I meant when I posted the "problem" line? Did you think it was odd that I asked a seemingly random question? At the moment I'm feeling that taking Leech's word for anything isn't a good idea.


Leech is right about one thing, however, 'tis better to lynch mafia than VI.
Ergo:

Unvote, Vote: Leech

After that, Eggy.

[Avish]

Yeahh, Avish is scum alright. Pity, I kind of liked her. She's doing a good job sounding genuine but actions speak louder than words, and there be common newbie scumtells in her play. (Overdefensiveness, survival-ism etc.)

Oh, but I'm not, you know. Heh. Over-defensive? I'm being put in a position where I must be defensive. Survival-ism? I'm not as concerned with my survival as you think I am, but why exactly should I just sit back and let myself get lynched? Losing townies doesn't help the town. It is, of course, true that the town is more important than the individuals that make it up and that even if I am the first one lynched I'll still win if the town wins. I haven't really been trying to save myself so much as draw my accusers into discussion. I think I've got a pretty good chance of getting the axe. After all, I am the leading candidate right now. If that happens the townies can hopefully look back at all the debate that has been going on with me and about me and figure out who is actually mafia.

If you are not scum you are making the mistake of assuming that my brand newbie a** will behave like players you are used to. Keep in mind that I come from somewhere where mafia is played in a very different way. THAT is actually why I asked my oh-so distracting question. I was trying to figure out how used you guys are to actually playing with newbies. You kind of keep making me chuckle with this "common newbie scumtells" bit. I assure you that if you want to understand me you need to think outside the box. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Lynch me and you will see for yourself.

[Avish]

Well, Vox, I'm just too damn lazy to read through a bunch of games I'm not involved in. King was mighty vigilant in preparing for this game, he read through a bunch of games before we started. I didn't do that. Feel free to think I'm a lousy player because of that, but it doesn't make me mafia.

Since everybody's so worried about contradictions, here's one for you to chew on: Those with arguments against me seem to be saying that I'm really stupid in one breath and then really clever in the next. I can't be both. If I'm falling into newbie scumtells by being all opportunistic and paranoid, then how exactly am I managing to sound so genuine? I am really enjoying this game. So many chuckles to be had.

For that matter, I'm not sure how I got branded so paranoid anyway. Just because I mentioned the possibility of my getting lynched? I mean, I am one of the two leading candidates, after all. I have been since page 2. At this point I

am

feeling a little jumpy. Mainly because of the Shotty situation. If I get the axe, than he can't unless people are actually convinced that he's mafia. Otherwise, we could be in real trouble. Well,

surely

you guys would realize that once you saw I was actually town, surely.

[Avish]

@Leech

Oh, I wasn't actually trying to change your mind. I feel fairly certain that you are determined not to change it, regardless. I looked up that "OMGUS". Cute term. That's not it, but whatever floats your boat. I voted you because I think you seem seedy. I'm not certain, you're just my leading candidate at this time. At this point I really hope you are mafia. You are so aggressive in your attack, so sure you know everything, so down right cocky, in fact, that if you turn out to be town I'm going to be embarrassed for you.

WAIT!

Don't tell me.

Let me guess.

That is a common scumtell.

I don't care. As I keep saying, the truth will out. If you are town get ready to eat crow.

I didn't vote Vas when he voted for me and hammered me repeatedly, but his arguments feel different than yours. I still say I learned something from my fluff question. And saying I'm delusional just wasn't nice. Vas said I was spitting up scumtells, but sounded genuine. That is what I was referring to.


There's more I should probably address, but it's late. I'm tired. I'm tired of hitting the backspace key to correct typos. So the rest will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Avish]

You might as well just lynch me, for crying out loud. I don't really think, of course, that it's good for the town, but if everybody has such suspicion of me than I fear I'm just a distraction. And that is not good for the town either. I'm hoping, I suppose, that reviewing the Case of Avish after the fact will shed some interesting light on the situation and help you find the actual mafia.

Re: Experienced/Inexperienced
I have some experience on another site, but I wouldn't even really say I'm

really

experienced there. I'm somewhat experienced. Games are faster paced and much more casual. There is a lot of spamming, a lot of joking around. The things that got me in trouble here would not get me in trouble there. You boys are much more srs bzns. Not that I'm complaining, mind. I came here looking for that sort of thing, but I underestimated the degree.

I've only survived to the end of one game...where I was PR mafia. In game one the vig offed me along with 5 other townies (he wasn't very good XD) and in the third the SK offed me. Ergo, I'm feeling like it's the norm to die young when I'm town. Heh.


To business:

I don't get an overly mafia feel from Vas. He's going to look rather guilty when I flip town, but his initial challenge and vote on me felt more like prodding than a determined attack. As I attempted to defend myself (which is standard fare where I come from, btw) I dug myself deeper and deeper. By no means am I saying I believe him to be town, I'm just saying to be cautious about declaring him guilty just because he started the wagon that lynched a townie.

No read whatsoever on Shotty. He's bad news, but I don't know if he's mafia. DON'T LYNCH HIM WHEN YOU'RE DONE WITH ME! Ffs. You won't be able to afford another mislynch on a townie at least until you take out one of them at the absolute soonest.

And be careful about putting anyone else at L-1 unless you are quite sure.

He wants to lynch me for the hell of it. He'll do it again and you don't want that. Even if he is mafia there'll be another one. Try to root that one out, first.

Eggy just gives off a bad guy vibe with his posting in general. Do I really have to explain that? I suppose I will if I must, but it seems silly.

It's been stated that Longing is going to look guilty as hell should I flip mafia. But. I. Won't. I caution against considering him innocent when I flip town. If he's mafia he knows damn well what I'm going to flip. It looks like I'm going down. If he's mafia he doesn't need to help it along.

I don't get any mafia vibes off King. Pointing out that something was already discussed is nothing. It's hard to keep track of everything in this game and he's new. I think he's been doing a pretty good job.

I got nothing on AV. He's Mr. Neutral as far as I'm concerned.

Leech. I threw out a couple reasons, but they aren't the main reason. I feel that his timing is rather apt. No, I'm not going to explain that. Scream scumtell until you turn blue in this face. I'm not trying to prevent my lynch.

Oh and,

By all means enlighten us to what, exactly, you learned that can be of any use in this game.

I'm pretty sure I at least implied if not outright stated that I wasn't seeking information for

this

game.


I feel like I'm forgetting things, but I have to dash. Relatives have come to stay for the weekend. Oh, joy.

[Avish]

Why delay the inevitable, shotty?

I asked about self-hammering before and suddenly I see a reason to self-hammer. The case against me has been built up too much, if I were to live I would only create confusion amongst my fellow townies. That's no good.

I blame myself. I was too sloppy and reckless and it allowed bad guys to build a case against me. I'm sorry about that. Leech will no doubt act all aghast and say I just played terribly and nobody can blame him for thinking I was mafia. Well, I did play terribly, but I don't think that's it and I'll tell you why after a bit of major point clarification.

The whole shotty mess grew out of my personal confusion about PLs. I started to type a lot about that, but it's irrelevant now.

My defensiveness was because, Ta Dah!

I'm the Doctor.

I wanted to save myself because if I lived I could possibly save someone in the night phase. Still the wrong way to be thinking, perhaps, but there you have it.

My random fluff question had nothing to do with the game, but clearly I should have waited 'till after the game to ask it. It is relevant to understanding the site in general, but the placement was random.

As far as the paranoia thing, I just don't understand why it's considered "paranoid" to worry about getting lynched when people are trying to lynch you. In other words, it's not paranoid if people really are out to get you. As far as chuckling, I just figured I was doomed and wasn't going to sweat it.

Oh - also reveals that she's never played as scum. So, she's the perfect person to fall into newb-scum tell traps.

I've only survived to the end of one game...where I was PR mafia.

In game one the vig offed me along with 5 other townies (he wasn't very good XD) and in the third the SK offed me. Ergo, I'm feeling like it's the norm to die young when I'm town. Heh.

You missed that. Not only was I mafia, but I was the mafia doctor. And so far it's the only game in which I survived 'till the end. And just so you know, I had several townies convinced that I was town. Neener neener.

______________________________________________________________

The important part.

Now. I may have thought Vas seemed like mafia when he first started on me, but opinions can change can they not? He still looks a tad shady, he is, after all, the one who started my little wagon, but Leech looks worse to me. He's really the one that got me lynched. As I said before, I find the "new" reasons he came up with a bit weak. Furthermore, he went after me with a certain desperation, demanding other players explain their reasons for not voting for me. It's clear he wanted me dead. Obviously, if he was town and truly believed I was mafia he would want me dead, but it's just a bit unbelievable that he could be so certain without any doubt.

There's more to it than that, however,

I totally role revealed.

Back when people were challenging me because I said the cop should scan me, I said I was thinking the doctor could protect him if he revealed himself. The only way I could be confident of that is if I was the doctor. That, of course, was my plan. Stupid of me, really. Leech's massive assault on me came after that. So yeah, I did pull a newbie move...it just wasn't newbie mafia. Ergo, if Leech is mafia and he noticed (and he strikes me as the type that would be able to pick up on such a thing) he would want me dead. Killing me is more profitable for mafia than killing shotty.

So you see, my vote on Leech wasn't OMGUS at all...I just couldn't reveal the full extent of my reasoning until I was sure I was going to be hammered.

I sincerely hope my death can shed some light on the mafia situation. I'm not 100% convinced of Leech's guilt, he's just my leading suspect at the moment. I recommend looking into it.


I've really enjoyed playing with you guys, despite the way it turned out for me. I promise to pay closer attention and play better in my next game. Good luck townies, I'll be following this game with great interest.

And Leech, I'm not taking anything personal even if you do turn out to be misguided townie. However, you better believe I'll be random voting you if we wind up in another game together.


And now, without further ado:

Unvote

Vote: Avish

*cue that sad song from the Titanic movie*

[Avish]

Mafia know there's a doctor? Is that true?

And blacklist me all you want, my dear. I feel my self-hammer is actually good for the town in this case. You're just bitter because you wanted to be the one to hammer me and I deprived you of the opportunity.

[Avish]

Don't be silly. Mafia would have just killed me tonight. I cannot protect myself.

[Avish]

Ah, wait. Killing me would have meant they couldn't kill anybody else. Didn't think of that at the time. But I don't really believe you. I think you would have hammered me no matter what.

[Avish]

You already stated that you were willing to lynch me for the fun of it earlier. I have no reason to believe that you wouldn't. You don't seem to be taking this game seriously.

And if, by some chance, I lived through to Day 2 it would just mean more confusion. People would be debating whether I was fake role revealing or not. If I didn't die people would be arguing that mafia would have taken me out if they thought I might be the doctor and since they didn't I must be one of them fake role revealing. Day 2 would be all about me as well. No good. I was set up and I'm done for. Time to clear the air, imo. One mislynch won't sink the town.

[Avish]

The first three sentences of the above are obviously directed at shotty.

[Avish]

Obviously I do. I've not played well and the town is suffering because of it. Time to move on, I say. You're overdoing it, btw.

[Avish]

Noted.

It's not the "suckiness" I minded (in a twisted way I rather enjoyed it), I would have been perfectly willing to keep getting battered. I just didn't think it was good for the town. One of two things: Either mafia would just kill me off in the Night Phase, or they would let me live and Day 2 would be focused on trying to figure out if I was lying about my role or not. How is that good for the town? Mafia feeds off chaos, do they not? I feel like I have been an accidental agent of chaos and more damaging than the good my role could provide.

I do not believe either you or Leech would be inclined to give me the benefit of a doubt, regardless of your actual alignment. Chaos. And to succeed in my role, I would need an element of luck. I'm not feeling lucky, for some reason.

Anyhoo, I apologize once again to the town. I suppose I'll take your word for it and not do that again, no matter how tempting it is.

[Avish]

Ah, the game is over and we lost.

Don't worry, I haven't been scared off. I've just been terribly busy in my real life and am involved in several games on my other site, so I haven't signed up for any games here.

I regretted my self-hammer as soon as I did it, but it was too late then. I am well aware that it was a bad move. This game presented all kinds of new and different situations for me, not the least of which was being in a situation where I had to defend myself. That has never happened to me before...not as townie, not as mafia. The only time I've ever been lynched before (and I was mafia) was in a game where the confirmed detective busted me rollblocking when the town rollblocker was dead. Rather hard to defend against that one.

Of course, I thought Vas was mafia at first. Leech's 180 on me made me find him more suspicious, which negated my suspicion of Vas because I didn't think both mafia would go after a townie scapegoat hardcore. However, I have no real regrets about this game. Live and learn, as they say. I had fun while it lasted. After all, it's only a game.