Mini 1073: Autumn Mafia - Game Over!

[Xine]

First I want to address things directed at me.
Sometimes I post a "recap" In the morning especially, (pre coffee) If I feel unclear about what is going on, or just unclear how to phrase a question. It let's you all know that I am still here and what I'm thinking about, and gives anyone the opportunity to correct me on false assumptions. The other options for play style sound lovely, and I will currently try to do those things as well.

Shattered: I have yet to play as scum.

Llamarble: I agree that content is good, perhaps that's why your just-a-vote stood out so much to me????

Also, Netlava places a random vote on Oso, for "being ansty" and "antsy could describe the tone of

every one

of his posts since then.

My main objection here is that while I could see someone describing my overall posting style as "antsy," saying that every single post I've made is "antsy" feels like slightly inaccurate rhetoric.

I apologize, I just ran an Iso for you, and found the one exception to that statement:

Questions:
Timezone- Pacific
Experience- a lot
Post frequency- often

I stand corrected
(Ice, you disagree with me here, how would you describe his other posts?)

FeRnAnDo

are we still on RVS? i think so. then i'll VOTE: Netlava, for making 4 posts in a row with that scary avatar

I don't think it was "still RVS" at the time you posted this, and I really don't think it still is. assuming you believe this to be true, does your vote remain where it is, or move? to who, and why?

I'm better than all of you, and the sooner you realize that and treat me as such, the easier this game will be.
I refuse to participate in Random Voting, so let me know when you're done with that.

Shattered apparently thinks he's somebody special

Alternate (closer to reality) answer: I'm an insufferable asshole.

some of the coolest people I've ever met are, but most of them turned out to be scum

[Zinive]

Shattered Viewpoint I have played two games with people acting like insufferable assholes and it became a problem to me in both. A playstyle like this gives a cover for future suspicious behavior and can disturb the flow of the game by emotionally 'distracting' players. So I ask you could you please change just for this game your playstyle?

I have taken my vote of off Oso because our RVS has ended and I was satisfied with his response. I have not made a vote for someone else because there is not enough against anyone at the table at this point. If forced to vote I would have to decide between either shattered or Llamarble.

My vote for shattered would be a policy one, as I have stated I think his playstyle will be bad for the town in the long run.
My vote on Llamarble would be because of his vote hoping.

[Llamarble]

"There's nothing interesting yet, I'll come back later" seems like a very anti-town attitude.
It gives mafia an excuse to wait for somebody else to be in danger before entering the fray.

To help all of you who haven't posted anything useful yet find something to say, what are your opinions on:
* The case I made against Zinive
* The suspicion surrounding my early bandwagon vote change
* Fernando's hedgy-looking and late random vote
* The exchange between Shattered and Ice/others and Shattered's accusation toward Ice
* The players who have yet to contribute anything useful despite the day being already ~10% over

Simply agreeing with a perspective already mentioned on each issue would be useful.


I guess I'm ready to make a most-least suspicion rank, though it's a pretty tight pack.
I would appreciate similar rankings from other players.

1. Zinive
2. Fernando
3. Cruelty
4. Perardua
5. Me=Weird
6. Shatteredviewpoint
7. Iceninja
8.Equinox (I'm assuming his V/LA is legit so this is pretty much where neutral is.
9. Netlava
10. Xine
11. Oso
12. Llamarble

[cruelty]

why are you posting scumlists on page three?

i generally think that scumlists are anti-town, to make one on page three borders on ludicrous.

with regards to your zinive case, i'm not interested. it's on page two and is basically based on air. (i have read it, for the record). the impression i'm actually getting is that you're on a mission to lead town. unsure about your underlying motivation, guess we'll wait and see on that.

"There's nothing interesting yet, I'll come back later" seems like a very anti-town attitude.
It gives mafia an excuse to wait for somebody else to be in danger before entering the fray.

well yeah that's a valid point. except that's not what i said. what i actually said was;

don't really care about anything that's been posted thus far. reads like the usual early game irrelevant banter.

ie: i don't think anything relevant has been said yet. (this has now changed with your bizarro early scumlist).

vote: llamarble

ps: putting yourself on (and at the bottom of) your own scumlist is an internet faux pas on par with your own facebook status. you don't do it.

[Llamarble]

Why are scumlists anti-town?
It seems to me like they just carry information about your opinions and thus help people read you.
I do acknowledge that there's very little to really rank people based on at this stage, hence my statement that the pack is tight.
But there's little to do anything at all based on at this stage.
If everyone waited for something "relevant" to happen we'd never get anywhere.
I don't see how your attitude is different from the attitude I described.
"Nothing interesting yet" seems completely equivalent to nothing relevant yet.
In each case you prepare a scum-friendly wait-and-see approach while avoiding helping the town to move forward.
In order to get meaningful discussion going,
we have to start with stretchy accusations and progress to more concrete ones as scum make mistakes.
While I have no particular aspirations to "lead the town" (whatever that means)
I have been consistently making an effort to move us toward useful discussion.
Once we're getting somewhere I'll just present cases and evaluate the cases of others like everyone else.

On putting myself on my scumlist: me being at the bottom is equivalent to me not ranking myself.
I didn't know it was unusual to do that and I won't next time.

[Xine]

Zinive, How long do you feel is appropriate to wait between a vote and an unvote?

Llamarble: Scum list like that IMO are a play style thing. I do not feel comfortable posting that much information about my town reads myself, but have no particular issue with you doing it. What I do have issue with is when you, or anyone, asks others to do the same thing. I see scum saying…’hey everyone, who should I night kill, and who can I push a mislynch on.’ Btw, you have the creepiest avatar I have ever seen, props.

Side note, when I said I post at least once a day, I had not registered what BAM was, count on me for at least 2 posts per rl day.

[ICEninja]

i generally think that scumlists are anti-town, to make one on page three borders on ludicrous.

While I would normally agree with you on both counts, I believe he has done this out of necessity. As Llama said, there are a number of players simply waiting for something to happen. If everyone just waits for someone to magically screw up and then someone else to make a solid case out of it, then we'll find ourselves a day before deadline with nothing but random votes to lynch off of.

While I generally ignore most of my gut reads in favor of logical cases that are built around quoting the player and demonstrating why that is playing to a scum win condition, this game may not allow for that. This is especially true on day 1. I will be playing against my standard idea of what I feel is good play, unfortunately, and be voting a lot on gut reads until we have dead bodies and votes to analyze carefully.

I've got a town read on Llamarble, so I won't be voting him for now. There are 4 players who haven't posted a second post yet, which is absolutely awful. Of the 4 of them, I feel like Fernando has done the most to try and blend in with and appease town. In particular, I really don't like the way he seemed to try and ask for permission to make a random vote. Also his friendly demeanor, while not inherently scummy, could be combined with town appeasement to try and sail by unnoticed. After all, my one game as scum, I was trying to be more friendly and agreeable without even realizing it.

Vote Fernando

.

[Xine]

UNVOTE:
gotta run to work, llamarble is at least acting in a fairly pro town fashion, don't want my vote on him anymore

[Oso]

First off, I think folks may be getting too focused on the rule set rather than the game. I get that many folks /inned without knowing it was being played under BaM.

That said, what folks are saying about about scum using the rules to coast by because there may not be time to focus on many people per day does make sense so going after low post counts (like ICEninja is) makes a certain amount of sense as all a person has to do is post once a game day to avoid mod-kill and that leaves town to have to deal with them.

I can however, see scum use the general perception of the players to try and create an atmosphere of hysteria (or at least amp up the players by constantly reminding them of the rule set) to create a background "We gotta do(lynch) something(somebody)....like now." mentality in the player base.

So far, there is only one person I seen trying to capitalize on the rule set in that manner.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ICEninja

If you ISO him, you will see there is only one post he has made so far (it's ISO-#2/Game Post-#23) where he doesn't make mention to the short amount of time.

His vote on Fernando reeks for that reason. Granted, Fernando hasn't posted but once and that does merit suspicion but not one Day 1. Lurker hunting makes no sense in a normal game Day 1 and makes about as much in a game run under BaM. If he is a true lurker preparing to flake, he'll be mod-killed. If not, it will be obvious he is trying to fly under the radar especially since everyone is already hyped to see low participation as being automatically scummy, he(Fernando) won't be able to do it for long.

Recap: ICEninja has created and will probably continue to feed the impression that the BaM ruleset somehow means this game is basically different than any other Normal Mafia-Mini and is using that impression (as scum) to try and direct pressure that will hopefully lead to lynches on people with low participation.

[Netlava]

I disagree. Going after lurkers is standard and good town play. And the fact that there's 4 players who have only posted once is really irksome to me. VOTE: Fernando

Mod: What are the prodding policies in this game?

[Shattered Viewpoint]

Zinive: Honey, I don't change for anyone. I'll try my gosh-darnedest to be nice to you, though, since you're obviously fragile and A Special Snowflake.

Xine is obvTown; I know of her meta through the site and she certainly doesn't strike me as a liar. Since she claims she has "not yet" played as scum, I believe her.

More later today, kinda rushed right now.

[Zinive]

Zinive, How long do you feel is appropriate to wait between a vote and an unvote?

I don't get this question. Outside of the RVS I vote if I see it fit. Meaning if there is enough on the table to warrant a vote for someone I make my vote. I have stated who I would vote if I had to and stated my reasons why I would do so.

Oso you brought up an interesting point. He really seems now to be emphasize the ruleset. However we should also take into consideration that our time is rather short and some people still seem to believe that once per day is enough where it is not.

[Oso]

..
Oso you brought up an interesting point. He really seems now to be emphasize the ruleset.

However we should also take into consideration that our time is rather short and some people still seem to believe that once per day is enough where it is not.

The bold part, I agree with completely.

My objection to what I see ICEninja doing is two fold. First, setting up atmosphere where people are starting to tunnel on deadline and activity. Second, actually making a case that a Day 1 lurker may be scum based on that. Granted, ICEninja did give an appeasement reason as secondary here (bold part):

..
I've got a town read on Llamarble, so I won't be voting him for now. There are 4 players who haven't posted a second post yet, which is absolutely awful. Of the 4 of them,

I feel like Fernando has done the most to try and blend in with and appease town.

In particular, I really don't like the way he seemed to try and ask for permission to make a random vote. Also his friendly demeanor, while not inherently scummy, could be combined with town appeasement to try and sail by unnoticed. After all, my one game as scum, I was trying to be more friendly and agreeable without even realizing it.

But if you read in that same quote, he is picking the one he thinks is the worst of the four who have the least activity.

And in like most of his posts, the earlier part of that post again tries to stress how BaM changes the game in some major way:

..
While I generally ignore most of my gut reads in favor of logical cases that are built around quoting the player and demonstrating why that is playing to a scum win condition,

this game may not allow for that. This is especially true on day 1. I will be playing against my standard idea of what I feel is good play, unfortunately, and be voting a lot on gut reads until we have dead bodies and votes to analyze carefully.

..

Also, in my opinion, a subtle attempt at distancing/excusing himself from being in on the lynch should Fernando go all the way to a lynch. See bold there as well.

I wasn't sure who would do it, but by the time I stopped looking at the thread yesterday evening, I was convinced a person would try and get something going on a low activity player by either using the short deadlines as a primary reason or a variation of that and that person would have the strongest chance in my estimation of being scum.

[ICEninja]

ICEninja has created and will probably continue to feed the impression that the BaM ruleset somehow means this game is basically different than any other Normal Mafia-Mini and is using that impression (as scum) to try and direct pressure that will hopefully lead to lynches on people with low participation.

If you think I'm trying to actually have players lynched based on lurking then you're seriously misunderstanding my intentions. I don't lurker hunt with the intent of lynching lurkers. You seem to be trying to imply that this game will run at the same normal pace of most mini normals. The truth is, we have 4 players who have only made a single post so far in the game. This is a full 1/3rd of our players who are simply not playing. This is roughly equivalent to 1/3rd of the players going for about 5 days in a standard mini normal having made only a single post each. Is that in any way acceptable?

I am not trying to push a lynch right now, we still have time. However, I demand that every player post enough for us to get reads on them or else we won't have enough information to make the correct lynch.

Also, in my opinion, a subtle attempt at distancing/excusing himself from being in on the lynch should Fernando go all the way to a lynch. See bold there as well.

This would be the same regardless of who I would be voting. We obviously don't have enough on any player to actually lynch them, but if the votes stay off the quiet players, what incentive do they have to talk?

That being said, I find Oso fairly town for his observation.

Oso, what are your thoughts on players who have only made a single post so far? What about any players who will have gone another full RL day without making a single post? Also, do you plan on playing the same in this rule set as you would in a more standard rule set?

[Oso]

..
Oso, what are your thoughts on players who have only made a single post so far? What about any players who will have gone another full RL day without making a single post? Also, do you plan on playing the same in this rule set as you would in a more standard rule set?

The low posters, I don't think much (alignment-wise) either way or the other at the moment. I do wish as a player, they would post a bit more often though. As I stated earlier, any true flaker is going to be mod-killed. If starting tomorrow, the low posters still continue to post then that takes it out of AGar's hands and puts it squarely in ours and will have to be dealt with. Today we have enough active people posting that even if a part of the scum has decided to 'lay-low' Day 1 I'm betting we have also have a part that is posting.

That is why your attack on a low activity player at this point in the game is clanging so many bells with me. BaM is tailor made for scum to go after lurkers at any point in the game with impunity, not just after a couple or three days of pattern lurking. Making what are generally easy lynches that much easier, that much earlier in the game.

And yes, I do plan on playing pretty much as I do in a normal ruleset. All BaM is going to change from my POV is that I'm probably going to make several smaller posts as opposed a lesser amount of walls. Which in my case, isn't bad at all.

[Me=Weird]

I disagree. Going after lurkers is standard and good town play. And the fact that there's 4 players who have only posted once is really irksome to me. VOTE: Fernando

Mod: What are the prodding policies in this game?

Okay, so there's 4 people who hadn't posted more than once yet. Why pick him? Looks like bandwagoning to me.

why are you posting scumlists on page three?

i generally think that scumlists are anti-town, to make one on page three borders on ludicrous.

How are they anti-town? It shares opinions, which is pro-town. And if you mean the stupid "it tells scum who to NK" argument, I'm of the opinion that it's fairly easy for scum to find who people think to be pro-town based on interactions.

with regards to your zinive case, i'm not interested. it's on page two and is basically based on air. (i have read it, for the record). the impression i'm actually getting is that you're on a mission to lead town. unsure about your underlying motivation, guess we'll wait and see on that.

Fence sitting extreme! Way to not give an opinion.

"There's nothing interesting yet, I'll come back later" seems like a very anti-town attitude.
It gives mafia an excuse to wait for somebody else to be in danger before entering the fray.

well yeah that's a valid point. except that's not what i said. what i actually said was;

don't really care about anything that's been posted thus far. reads like the usual early game irrelevant banter.

There's a difference? They're both "nothing said yet matters. I'll come back later." Just because it's early game doesn't mean nothing matters.

ie: i don't think anything relevant has been said yet. (this has now changed with your bizarro early scumlist).

So the only relevant thing so far is the scum-list? Have you read the thread?

vote: llamarble

ps: putting yourself on (and at the bottom of) your own scumlist is an internet faux pas on par with your own facebook status. you don't do it.

That's it. The moment this game is over, I'm making a thread about it in MD. So many opinions about putting yourself on your scumlist. I don't find it bad, because it's not like you'd put yourself as scummy, and then there are the people who attack you for leaving someone(even yourself) out.

Bolded mine.
It's seeming like cruelty doesn't want to give his opinion, despite information being pro-town. He's also calling everything said useless, just because it's early game(except for a list), which is ignoring the ICE Oso discussion, llama's vote on Oso, and other stuff. He's voting llama just because of a list(AFAICT(as far as I can tell)), which is not in itself scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Cruelty

Yeah, I am V/LA most tuesdays

, but didn't get to say it monday because I got back late. I usually post once a day, but am trying to change that to twice a day. I'm in CST, and have completed about 20 games, am dead in a few, and in one other and this, regarding the questions.

[FeRnAnDo]

UNVOTE: Netlava

1) GMT/UTC-3 . Seriously, i don't understand PDT, PST or pacific. Pacific is a huge ocean, i'm sure there are various timezones over there, please specify using a notation that the rest of the world uses (either GMT or UTC)

Seriously, I don't understand GMT/UTC whatever that European bullshit is. I also can't be arsed to google it. However,

if

you care so much about when we might post,

and

you don't "get it" when we mention our timezones, perhaps you could use this nifty little website called Google.

ICEninja, if you don't like my playstyle, nightkill me. Don't badger me to death in-thread. You'll just end up pissing me off and that won't end well for anyone.

Vote: ICEninja

Was that really needed? Just wanted to know the timezone you were talking about, since you were using acros that exist only in 1 out of around 200 countries. I'm not European, thank you. Do you actually have fun being that arrogant? Well, the only reason i can think for that is to draw focus to your arrogance instead of your content, so when people think about you they will just say 'nah, he's just an arrogant townie flinging shit randomly'. Unfortunately, for you, that won't go unnoticed... at least not by me. Also, Netlava never said you were lurking, and yet you felt the urge to state you weren't. Odd. Also, your vote on ICEninja sounds purely an OMGUS vote. VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint


Xine and ICEninja It was my first post, and i assumed we were on RVS, ever heard about a rhetorical questions? The answer to the other questions you (Xine) made are above this paragraph. Also, ICEninja, you might have noticed that Shattered Viewpoint also claimed he would post at least once a day, and yet you only pointed at me for stating so. Don't worry, my posts are generally long.

Llamarble, a late random vote was enough to place me as the 2nd. scummiest? About Zinive's case, sure is suspicious, but wouldn't it be very silly of him to jump on a wagon that needs 4 more votes? I don't see a big deal there, yet.

[Netlava]

@Me=weird: I chose fernando to put more pressure on him since he already has a vote.

Also, you're voting cruelty for calling much of the early game discussion useless - does that mean that you disagree with him? What's your opinion on the early game discussion?

[Netlava]

About Zinive's case, sure is suspicious, but wouldn't it be very silly of him to jump on a wagon that needs 4 more votes? I don't see a big deal there, yet.

Hmm, this is interesting. I can't tell if you are finding Zinive suspicious or if you are defending him. You seem a bit predisposed to finding Zinive suspicious, though...

[Netlava]

Sorry for triple posting, but one last thought:

It's probably better not to post entire scumlists. Transparency is good and all, but townies can never really be completely transparent to town, whereas townies are almost always completely transparent to scum. Letting scum have all that information makes it easier for them to predict what's going to happen in the game and choose night actions.

[FeRnAnDo]

It's suspicous because he joined a forming wagon too quickly, and yet not a big case because since zinive's started he has played 8-9 mafia games i don't believe he would make such a newbish move like joining a wagon on page 2 expecting 4 more votes. clear?

Preview Edit: I kinda agree with that, Netlava. but later on game some 'top 3 scum' lists could be nice.

[Netlava]

Yeah, that clarifies things a lot.

Top 3 or so is fine, but going from top to bottom isn't the smartest idea, imo.

[Llamarble]

@Zinive: At some point you promised a slightly longer post, but that hasn't happened yet.
I'd appreciate your views on M=W's discussion of Cruelty and Oso's case against Ice.

I do agree that Xine's question about how long to wait before unvoting is a little strange
@Xine: Could you explain the aim of that question?

I agree with M=W's post, except I don't see Netlava's vote on Fernando as particularly scummy.
I was kind of frustrated with lurking too, and while Ice's argument against him isn't terribly weighty,
it was enough to differentiate him as most suspicious of the lurkers.

@Fernando
Why you were second: the pack of lurkers came right after Zinive, and you were top of that pack.

I didn't like this statement of shattered much:

You're trying (a little too hard, IMO) to draw attention away from yourself by deeply going into "analysis" so early in the game (yeah, yeah, it's not that early what with the microscopic deadline and all). I'm reasonably sure you're scum.

"Reasonably sure" suggests a much greater degree of certainty than makes sense at that point.
I don't think he means the level of certainty he represents, so the post sounds insincere to me.
It looks like an intentional show of animosity, which could mean distancing.

[Netlava]

Yeah, shattered's posts are definitely weird right now, to say the least. They don't make any sense, so I can't tell if he's being serious or not.

Xine is obvTown; I know of her meta through the site and she certainly doesn't strike me as a liar. Since she claims she has "not yet" played as scum, I believe her.

This is lol...

Alternate (closer to reality) answer: I'm an insufferable asshole.

I actually thought ICE had posted this (speaking for shattered) when I first read this. But it's strange for shattered to post this because it contradicts an earlier post:

There's a difference in being self-confident (like I am) and being rude. (as you are).

@Shattered: Are you serious or joking in your posts?

[Xine]

I do agree that Xine's question about how long to wait before unvoting is a little strange
@Xine: Could you explain the aim of that question?

It was in response to this:

My vote on Llamarble would be because of his vote hoping.