Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count

silverbullet999(0) -

Jack(4)

- a2rudeboy, curiouskarmadog, SnakePlissken, evilpacman18

evilpacman18(1)

- PranaDevil
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -
horrordude0215(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -
SnakePlissken(0) -

PranaDevil(3)

- LynchMePls, Jack, silverbullet999

Not Voting(3)

- vollkan, Pomegranate, horrordude0215

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch

Deadline: November 1st, 2010, 2:00 AM, Central Standard Time

[SnakePlissken]

^^That is absurd.

If that is the case, then anytime scum starts to get wagon they just fake giving up and they never get lynched.

Why is giving up a town tell?

I didn't say it was conversely though, thinking you can get a quick lynch because there is no defence for it would be cheap lynch move for the scum.

WHAT?

I'm starting to see Pranas point about your responses. What I have written is easily readable and you come back with nothing, it's almost as if you are trying to make your post countnin here look busy without actually adding anything. Your getting a bit Jack on us by doing that.

[vollkan]

Answering LMP's request for comment on the Him-Prana exchange:

No, I'm saying your explanation is nonsense. There should have been 0 worry about a quicklynch if you were going to be gone 24 hours and he only had 4 votes on him.

Regardless of whether you believe it to be nonsense (There has been lynches quicker than that elsewhere, hence why I was being safe, ask Snake, he's on the UKFF as well), how is it scummy? If it's not scummy, why is it part of your case?

PD's explanation doesn't make sense. I can't see how he could reasonably think that there was a risk of quicklynch. Also, answering the question he poses, there is a clear scum motivation for refusing to vote; it's the same as underpins the Vote:Townie,Fos: Scumbuddy tell - not wanting to commit to the lynch of a buddy but also leaving wiggle room to get distancing points.

PD+1

I repeat, this is my FIRST Large normal (and my last most likely), you are basically saying that because my only experience of large games is two Kise run themed games that I should somehow assume that there wouldn't be a single scum team.

I'm used to NORMALS having just one scum team. Regardless of whether I'm wrong or right about that, it's NOT scummy by itself. As far as scum/town tells go, it's completely null.

What it IS as a tell, is a "New to large normals" tell if large normals are normally 2 scum teams.

@PD: How many large theme games have you played?

Bolded to show my major points in that post, the first pointing out where Looker had, indeed, been pointing things out that needed pointing out (as everyone was blaming Looker for something Espy had already done by that point), and the last one showing that there was no scum motivation in that post, nor had I actively noticed any from Looker at that point.

This doesn't make sense. Looker was obv town for pointing out something in his own defence?

I didn't have the time. Guess what? Looker was a bigger priority for me to make a case on at that point in my eyes. Are you suggesting that, when I didn't have much time to make a full case, that I should go after one that YOU feel I should make, as opposed to the one that, at that point, I believe to be more useful?

Do you not see how ridiculous your argument is? It's basically: "He had time to make one case, he must have had time to make more as well". Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way. Time is not infinite, and when I have non-mafia stuff to do, I have to say that mafia will normally be done last. Not first. If being busy away from the site is somehow scummy then I'm fucked if I know how.

As somebody who routinely says "I want to ISO X" and never gets around to doing it, for exactly the reasons in PD's second paragraph, I agree with PD here.

It's fluff because NONE OF IT MAKES A CASE

Where are you showing that any of it is "more likely to be done by scum than town"? Where are you showing where the scum motivation for anything I've done is?

It isn't there, it's non-existant, it's just a massive fuck ton of bullshit.

Here's your entire case on me:

"He hasn't played in large normals and assumed scum would be a single team, that's scummy"
"I don't like why he unvoted in case of a quick lynch, must be scum"
"He unvoted Espy to check the thread then disappeared for a while through being busy, scummy"
"He felt Looker was pro-town, that's scummy"
"He had chance to check over Looker and not CD? Must be scummy"

THAT'S IT!

I've played with you quite a few times PD, but I can't remember this: are you normally emotional like this?

UNVOTE: vollkan
I'll come back to this when people are more willing to listen.
VOTE: Jack
just iso'd him. 74 posts and next to no content. Most of his posts are useless one liners. Definitely not pro-town play.

Jack plays like this every game. It isn't scummy.

[LimMePls]

^^That is absurd.

If that is the case, then anytime scum starts to get wagon they just fake giving up and they never get lynched.

Why is giving up a town tell?

I didn't say it was conversely though, thinking you can get a quick lynch because there is no defence for it would be cheap lynch move for the scum.

WHAT?

I'm starting to see Pranas point about your responses. What I have written is easily readable and you come back with nothing, it's almost as if you are trying to make your post countnin here look busy without actually adding anything. Your getting a bit Jack on us by doing that.

I can't believe someone is accusing me of not adding anything after the last 5 or so posts I've made. I simply can't believe it. I'm going to step away from this game right now before I get really pissed off.

[SnakePlissken]

So should we lynch you then? Because by your logic that's what we should do.

[Jack]

Yeah a lot of LMP's posts are on the short side. Try posting more than two sentences for a change.

[a2rudeboy]

@Vollkan- You seem to have a good enough knowledge of Jack's meta. What does Jack play like when he's scum?

p-edit- LOL

[curiouskarmadog]

unvote

, I am behind..dont know what is going on...dont want vote unintended when I dont have the time to catch up....trying.

[curiouskarmadog]

ok, putting down this self challenge...if I dont post an update post in this game tomorrow, feel free to lynch me...(posting in the games I have left to update)..I MUST UPDATE TOMORROW...I MUST UPDATE TOMORROW...

[vollkan]

[quote="a2rudeboy"]@Vollkan- You seem to have a good enough knowledge of Jack's meta. What does Jack play like when he's scum?/quote]

I can't recall actually playing with him as scum, so I can't help you here

[RedCoyote]

I'm going to start looking for a horrordude replacement.

[RedCoyote]

That was fast. Antihero replaces horrordude effective immediately. Thanks, Antihero!

[PranaDevil]

Answering LMP's request for comment on the Him-Prana exchange:

No, I'm saying your explanation is nonsense. There should have been 0 worry about a quicklynch if you were going to be gone 24 hours and he only had 4 votes on him.

Regardless of whether you believe it to be nonsense (There has been lynches quicker than that elsewhere, hence why I was being safe, ask Snake, he's on the UKFF as well), how is it scummy? If it's not scummy, why is it part of your case?

PD's explanation doesn't make sense. I can't see how he could reasonably think that there was a risk of quicklynch. Also, answering the question he poses, there is a clear scum motivation for refusing to vote; it's the same as underpins the Vote:Townie,Fos: Scumbuddy tell - not wanting to commit to the lynch of a buddy but also leaving wiggle room to get distancing points.

PD+1

Think of it like that if you want, but after utter stupidity elsewhere (I'm pretty sure that we had 7 people quick lynch someone within the space of 12 hours even though the day was only 2 days old on the UKFF, it was something utterly ridiculous like that, so while normally I suppose I'd not be worrying about a quick lynch, after seeing that I didn't want to risk it).

@PD: How many large theme games have you played?

Two, both Square/Enix ones by Kise. So I don't feel even that is worthy of use as a general "pool" to decide any kind of average for what is deemed to be normal in a large game thanks to them both being by the same mod.

Outside of this forum it's just been a couple of relatively large games on another forum which, due to people only running one game at a time, everyone wants to put their own spin on their game to make it "unique" (meaning 9 times out of 10 it isn't), and so I don't deem any game played there to be worthy of consideration as to how a normal large game setup would be.

This doesn't make sense. Looker was obv town for pointing out something in his own defence?

Not even so much in his own defence, but that nobody had pointed it out at all by that point. It was simply the example I had used immediately after being questioned about why he was "obv. town" to me at the time because it was also the most recent. At this stage I don't feel that going back through Looker's early posts to show further why I felt he was town at that point to be beneficial to the current state of the game.

I've played with you quite a few times PD, but I can't remember this: are you normally emotional like this?

Only when I get frustrated at things, and this game is less fun and more frustrating. I don't think I've ever replaced out of a game, and I ideally don't want to start now, but I also would rather a game where people actually put forth good cases, rather than cases that are simply "I don't agree with this, therefore it's scummy" which is exactly how LMP's case is. There's no "scum are more likely to do this" reasoning, or "this is scummy because" reasoning, just complete "If you don't agree with how I feel things should be done, then you are scummy". It's just utterly ridiculous reasoning.

Like I say, why is it "scummy" to play cautiously and not want to toss your vote around when you might not be around for a while? Why is it scummy to not want to lynch someone who, at a point in the game, you believe to be town? Why is it scummy to not know how many scum teams are usually included in a large normal when you've never played in one before?

None of this has ever been explained by him, and yet he is stating he has provided a case. There is no case, whatsoever, that LMP has made. It's just a whole bunch of nothingness that others are latching onto, and those others aren't providing a single piece of reasoning why either.

Jack plays like this every game. It isn't scummy.

But then what IS scummy for him? Surely he should be playing to the town win condition? Confusing fellow town, creating issues, and generally being a nuisance aren't helping the town to win are they? If this is his "normal" way of playing, then perhaps he should take a good look at himself and start to play to his win condition?

As it stands, I still feel he's scummy. But I also don't like evilpacman. Now it's possible evilpacman has decided to bus his partner, but that would be ridiculous because he could have just gone for me and put me at L-2 instead, which means either Jack is scum and evilpacman isn't, or Jack's town and evilpacman would rather get rid of him at this stage because people are beginning to suggest he might be town and so what previously could have been an easy lynch is likely to quickly become an impossible lynch. So getting him out of the way now would prove popular for scum.

So to that end, unless it outright comes down to me or Jack, I wont be voting Jack. His play is bloody awful, but I'm beginning to wonder about the build up of votes on that wagon at this stage.

[LimMePls]

Only when I get frustrated at things, and this game is less fun and more frustrating. I don't think I've ever replaced out of a game, and I ideally don't want to start now, but I also would rather a game where people actually put forth good cases, rather than cases that are simply "I don't agree with this, therefore it's scummy" which is exactly how LMP's case is. There's no "scum are more likely to do this" reasoning, or "this is scummy because" reasoning, just complete "If you don't agree with how I feel things should be done, then you are scummy". It's just utterly ridiculous reasoning.

This is an unfair characterization of my case in the following ways:

• Your statements about a single scum team on D1 are not "if you don't agree with me it's scummy" it's "you seem to have inside information that only scum would have".
  
• My accusation about you distancing from the CD mislynch is not "if you don't agree with me it's scummy" it's "you posted a statement that looked supportive of the CD wagon, said you'd dig into it more, and then went 7 posts without a comment, to get a last minute vote in on a different wagon". It looks scummy for obvious reasons.

I'll grant the unvote could be seen the way you are suggesting ("if you don't agree with me it's scummy") but that is why I probed you on the matter, asking for specifics of why you made that choice (beyond what you'd given up to that point). Your "I've already explained that, I'm not saying anything else" was scummy. If you could defend your position, why wouldn't you?

I'm willing to lynch Jack if that's the only viable option, as he seems completely unwilling to help, and "he always plays this way as town" isn't enough for me.

[PranaDevil]

Except the first bit IS that.

I view a normal game as scum vs town, not scum vs scum vs town. So why should I assume there could be two scum teams in a normal game? They, from what I gather a normal game is, should be the rarity. Why is it scummy to assume a normal game has a single scum team? Why are you refusing to answer that question? Why are you DELIBERATELY ignoring the fact that I have only played two large games on this site before and both were themed games and with Kise modding, meaning I only had a single large game mod to base my views off, and as they were themed I didn't count them anyway?

What you are suggesting is that because I didn't go through and research previous large normal games to learn that these games often (as I'm getting from what you're saying) have two scum teams, I am scum.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!

As for the second point, first it was 5 posts, not 7. So please stop lying, and each of those posts was merely responding to something recently said.

Having time to quickly bung out a fast response to something that's just been said =/= time to make a case on someone.

So just because I made 5 quick and short posts, I somehow had loads of free time to make a full case on CoolDoG?

Hell, my "case" on Looker (which amounts to nothing more than "You say you posted lots, but your post history proves most of it is bollocks") was created in SIXTEEN MINUTES. While you are somehow suggesting I had all the time in the world.

The case is utter bollocks from top to bottom because there IS no case. It's a perfectly fair characterization of your case because you haven't provided one, you've provided statements of why you have different opinions on things, yes. However differing opinions is not scummy, not in the slightest.

[Jack]

sigh

unvote

[LimMePls]

You're scrambling for a defense. For instance:

So just because I made 5 quick and short posts, I somehow had loads of free time to make a full case on CoolDoG?

No one asked you to "make a full case" on CoolDog. You said you would look at him and comment on it, and then you didn't. It looks like you were trying to blend with the town ("Yeah, you guys are right") without having to join in the building mislynch. It looks like a carefully constructed way to blend with the town without getting involved, and I say it was scummy. If you hadn't ever said the case on CD was good and you'd look into it, and you just pursued Looker instead, it would be completely different (this would be an instance of disagreeing with me but not being scummy), but that isn't what you did. What you did was "you guys are right, I should look into that some more...**twiddles fingers and doesn't look into it more until we're near lynch** oh hey, I'm gonna vote this guy over here with no explanation about my looking into CD". I'm saying I don't think you ever intended to look into CD more, you just said that to blend with town, which was very anti-CD at that point.

[curiouskarmadog]

Updating from about page 34 (wow, thought more time has passed)…typing as I go.

At this stage, I want Jack or Pacman lynched, not only has Jack been acting worthless all game, but he and Esp were buddy buddy at the start of the game, and he's just being allowed to slide by being useless and scummy.

what I think is interesting is that jack soft claimed something earlier in the game..I havent brought it up, because I was hoping for results....so far, nothing from jack....jack care to comment on this?

you know jack... this isn't how I last remembered you.

how do you remember him?..(edit: you answer it later)

We really need some direction in this game, I feel completely disinterested. I'll be perfectly honest, I have very little motivation for this game.

yeah you keep saying that, but you are not doing anything about it...also, i hate the saying "perfectly honest"..have you not honest in this game...how about you get something started by asking question instead of bitching about the boring game (not scum hunting). To “be quite honest”, I was debating between killing you and Demon last night..thoughts? I changed to Demon at the last second.

But meh, I'm officially giving up on this game, half of the players aren't even attempting to play mafia, while the majority of the rest have done a vanishing act.

more of the same.

UNVOTE: vollkan
I'll come back to this when people are more willing to listen.
VOTE: Jack
just iso'd him. 74 posts and next to no content. Most of his posts are useless one liners. Definitely not pro-town play.

interesting time for a vote…I say if Prana is scum, this might be a partner.

...

Prana, who do you think is scum in this game and why?

[LimMePls]

yeah you keep saying that, but you are not doing anything about it...also, i hate the saying "perfectly honest"..have you not honest in this game...how about you get something started by asking question instead of bitching about the boring game (not scum hunting). To “be quite honest”, I was debating between killing you and Demon last night..thoughts? I changed to Demon at the last second.

I wouldn't shed a tear if you shot me instead. And I have started asking questions, a pretty large line of questioning towards PD, that has only generated comments from people when I ask for them. But don't let the truth get in your way.

Oh, and the Demon shot was awful, he was obv town.

[PranaDevil]

LMP, I note you've still dropped down to just that part of your "case" now, seemingly dropping everything else in favour of avoiding any of the questions I posed. Why?

Incidentally, regarding CoolDoG, you say I didn't have to make a case, that's as maybe, but I still felt like I needed to go through his posts fully, and as I did not have the time to do so, I didn't.

Are you now suggesting I should have skimmed his posts to come to a viewpoint on him, rather than taking the time to do a decent job?

I suppose if that's how you normally look over people, it would explain why your case on me has no solid basis and that you can't actually respond to any of it without deliberately ignoring what I'm saying.

Prana, who do you think is scum in this game and why?

At this stage I want to call LMP scummy for his attack on me, however I feel it may come across as OMGUS, because it would be solely based on how he's failed to not only present any actual case, but also the fact he hasn't actually responded to my issues with it, just taken the odd bit to respond to while avoiding the questions I asked him.

Also of the view evilpacman is scum based on his initial attack on Vollkan which swiftly became a policy lynch attempt, and his subsequent jump over to Jack putting him at L-2 and ahead of my lynch, which just feels strange, and makes me believe that Jack is no longer scum but pacman definitely is.

[curiouskarmadog]

Oh, and the Demon shot was awful, he was obv town.

really?...what about his play said town?

[silverbullet999]

*scratches head*

[Jack]

*twiddles thumbs*

[Pomegranate]

Blah.

I'm to busy (and a bit lazy) to read everything that's gone on in the last few pages.

If it's necessary, I plan to vote Prana before deadline over Jack. I'll iso him tomorrow.

[RedCoyote]

bump