/in-vitational Game 8 - Nito City (over) after 1015

[Locke Lamora]

No, you don't understand. Magna's claiming hider, so the two possibilities (from my perspective) are:

1. Magna's telling the truth, which means Boberz is town as Magna has (twice) hidden behind him, so you're scum.
2. Magna's lying, which means Magna is scum.

Swap me and you around for your perspective and you have the same choice as I do.

[Porochaz]

Your right, I think I need to take a closer look at both of you before I decide, properly.

[boberz]

Ok so the nolynch wouldnt actuall decrease the pool of suspects, in which case I say okaycokay let's get ready to rumble.

The possibilities from my point of view is you all could be scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't care what you did or who you voted for in the past 27 pages, to go back through and look through your post history would take up a load of my time, would be largely ignored and in the end would dilute my main point.

I am looking at cold hard facts here and no matter how you put it, it still looks wrong and Im hoping the others agree with me.

Emphasis added: In summary – I know actually looking at the game is not going to provide ammunition so I’m going to keep harping on Set-up speculation.

The bolded portion I find telling and somewhat funny – attempting to present your opinion as ‘cold hard facts’.

In regards to the rest of your post, Ive said all I want. I did "just look at your join date" and I had a quick look to see if there were any modded games here on ms (as other sites 99 times out of a hundred mean absolutely nothing. Your inexperience in normal games is showing though, as you will see:

Interesting that you are bringing up the MD discussion started by mith to bolster your attack.

First post of this /invitiational? July 29th
Date of the post you referenced? August 15th

You can feel free to digress into whether Incognito would be aware of the impending clarification by mith and whether his set-up, made at least 2 weeks before the clarification, would pass muster as a Normal set-up.

But please don’t try to Appeal to Authority using post-dated evidence. Scummy.

Jailkeeper is stupidly strong for scum to have. Redirector and Bus Driver shouldnt be involved and we have has no evidence of that to the contrary. Town Roleblocker becomes a problem when considering both scum roleblocker and scum jailkeeper, who resolves first and how does that effect balance? Also whats the point in having a goon cop when he can only detect one person? 6 townie's, 3 PR's and 3 Mafia, half the town being vanilla sounds good.

1. Care to explain how a JK is ‘stupidly strong’? It is weaker than a regular Roleblocker because the Mafia can’t block and kill the same target. In the case of a Confirmed PR the lack of ability to both block and kill in the same night limits the Mafia's strategic choices.
2. Stating that any sort of Roleblocker is problematic while asserting that I don’t know what I’m talking about is funny. Natural Action Resolution is just one example of how you handle a potential conflict. And it is only really a conflict if they block each other and the scum is indeed a JK. Otherwise Roleblockers going head-to-head simply cancel each other out.
3. I love how ask ‘What’s the point’ of a specific role in a set-up. Set-ups are often crafted to punish lazy assumptions, which you are attempting to advance.

Considering Ive been after farside most of the game I wouldnt say its as clear cut as that, every single person is still under suspicion, as it should be from everyones p.o.v. I wouldn't be voting straight away after the kill. I think scums nk could potentially be very telling.

Your right, I think I need to take a closer look at both of you before I decide, properly.

These two consecutive posts by Poro illustrate why I think he’s scum. These posts are 20 minutes apart. If Poro was Town you would think he would be actually putting some thought into his stances on the game. Yet it takes Locke directly telling him why it’s a 50/50 for him if he is Town for the realization to occur. Reads clearly as scum who is not able to distance himself from his inside knowledge.

My vote is going to stand until Deadline. I believe Poro is the last scum.

Magna: I'm guessing you didn't, but did you attempt to leave any stronger indicator that you'd hid behind Farside/Jack, confirming them as innocent? Given your D3 comment about Farside in particular, had you been killed N3, it wouldn't exactly have been the most obvious breadcrumb that you'd hid behind Farside.

No, I didn’t stronger breadcrumbs. My fears about a potential scum RB or JK made me hesitant to leave them. A hider is a very weak information role and as such didn’t warrant outing myself as strong role (Cop) might.

[Porochaz]

I don't care what you did or who you voted for in the past 27 pages, to go back through and look through your post history would take up a load of my time, would be largely ignored and in the end would dilute my main point.

I am looking at cold hard facts here and no matter how you put it, it still looks wrong and Im hoping the others agree with me.

Emphasis added: In summary – I know actually looking at the game is not going to provide ammunition so I’m going to keep harping on Set-up speculation.

The bolded portion I find telling and somewhat funny – attempting to present your opinion as ‘cold hard facts’.

Preparing the bullshit button. Ive stated Ill have a deeper look into the game. However I think this point stands on its own. Its not speculation, saying "I think there is a roleblocker in the game" is set up speculation. "Having 3 investigatory roles in a mini game makes it hard to balance when we already have yet another town role on top of that" is fact

In regards to the rest of your post, Ive said all I want. I did "just look at your join date" and I had a quick look to see if there were any modded games here on ms (as other sites 99 times out of a hundred mean absolutely nothing. Your inexperience in normal games is showing though, as you will see:

Interesting that you are bringing up the MD discussion started by mith to bolster your attack.

First post of this /invitiational? July 29th
Date of the post you referenced? August 15th

You can feel free to digress into whether Incognito would be aware of the impending clarification by mith and whether his set-up, made at least 2 weeks before the clarification, would pass muster as a Normal set-up.

But please don’t try to Appeal to Authority using post-dated evidence. Scummy.

Now I did add a disclosure initially but then I deleted it. Fact is, most of whats there was still normal before. Specifically why I referenced it. Bus Drivers and Redirectors have never been normal. Not August 15th, not July 29th, not July 29th 2005.

Jailkeeper is stupidly strong for scum to have. Redirector and Bus Driver shouldnt be involved and we have has no evidence of that to the contrary. Town Roleblocker becomes a problem when considering both scum roleblocker and scum jailkeeper, who resolves first and how does that effect balance? Also whats the point in having a goon cop when he can only detect one person? 6 townie's, 3 PR's and 3 Mafia, half the town being vanilla sounds good.

1. Care to explain how a JK is ‘stupidly strong’? It is weaker than a regular Roleblocker because the Mafia can’t block and kill the same target. In the case of a Confirmed PR the lack of ability to both block and kill in the same night limits the Mafia's strategic choices.
2. Stating that any sort of Roleblocker is problematic while asserting that I don’t know what I’m talking about is funny. Natural Action Resolution is just one example of how you handle a potential conflict. And it is only really a conflict if they block each other and the scum is indeed a JK. Otherwise Roleblockers going head-to-head simply cancel each other out.
3. I love how ask ‘What’s the point’ of a specific role in a set-up. Set-ups are often crafted to punish lazy assumptions, which you are attempting to advance.

1. Well apart from anything else, find a mini normal game with a scum jailkeeper in it. You can block a power role, you can protect a scumbuddy from a kill, (which by the way, there are no town killing roles so point = null).

2. When has 2 roleblockers ever cancelled each other out? Bullshit button again.

3. But a normal setup limits it, it keeps you in a box of predefined limits which you are outside of right now.

Considering Ive been after farside most of the game I wouldnt say its as clear cut as that, every single person is still under suspicion, as it should be from everyones p.o.v. I wouldn't be voting straight away after the kill. I think scums nk could potentially be very telling.

Your right, I think I need to take a closer look at both of you before I decide, properly.

These two consecutive posts by Poro illustrate why I think he’s scum. These posts are 20 minutes apart. If Poro was Town you would think he would be actually putting some thought into his stances on the game. Yet it takes Locke directly telling him why it’s a 50/50 for him if he is Town for the realization to occur. Reads clearly as scum who is not able to distance himself from his inside knowledge.

Should I have waited an hour to post that he was right? I did put some thought into it, but in all honesty, what thought do I need here. I just need to run scenario's. If you have hidden behind boberz, it makes him confirmed town, that leaves from your p.o.v. Locke/me. Scum kill boberz as confirmed town. If you are scum, then it still leaves boberz as confirmed town, unless you are town and are lying. Im going to go out on a limb here and say you are a better player than that. I forgot you stated you hid behind boberz.

My vote is going to stand until Deadline. I believe Poro is the last scum.

This is bad play. You should be considering all options at the moment, even the possibility that I am not scum. Isn't it just slightly interesting that Locke has all but clammed up now. Yes, he's been busy. However when he does post, he doesn't comment on this.

[Porochaz]

unvote

[boberz]

I have played in incog modded games before on several occasions and from what I remember all were balanced. I will go and check but there was accusations from some (including me, but others more) that something was scum weighted slightly but he refuted it well. Basically he can balance well and I have never seen him use insane amount of prs in my memory. I will try my best to check the mod meta.

2 of 3 nights prs were hit so do any of the remaining players have a history of hitting prs a lot??? Does anyone know?

Hider makes it town balanced but then a scum pr could balance that again I think. I do not see

---

Can someone explain a goon cop to me please. What result will it get on a scum pr, what on town, what on a goon please! It isnt on the wiki before someone tells me to look there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can someone explain a goon cop to me please. What result will it get on a scum pr, what on town, what on a goon please! It isnt on the wiki before someone tells me to look there.

The only person who can answer with 100% positivity is Incognito. I think it is somewhat of a custom role.

Preparing the bullshit button. Ive stated Ill have a deeper look into the game. However I think this point stands on its own. Its not speculation, saying "I think there is a roleblocker in the game" is set up speculation. "Having 3 investigatory roles in a mini game makes it hard to balance when we already have yet another town role on top of that" is fact

But the fact that a game might be ‘hard to balance’ doesn’t mean it can’t be balanced. You are trying to assert the game isn’t balanced when you shouldn’t, as Town, have the full picture. So once again you are speculating on the balance of the game as scum-hunting.

Now I did add a disclosure initially but then I deleted it. Fact is, most of whats there was still normal before. Specifically why I referenced it. Bus Drivers and Redirectors have never been normal. Not August 15th, not July 29th, not July 29th 2005.

So you specifically acknowledge that you knew the post from Mith was made after the game started but chose to not provide that information? What Town motivation do you have to hold back specific information in a way that makes your argument look stronger?

And if what you are saying is true why didn’t you just reference a source that listed all the roles that were considered Normal before mith’s post? Is it because there isn’t one?

And for the record from the wiki in the definition of a Normal Game –

A Normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles, they should mostly be considered standard, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.
Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.

Note that it specifically states the other roles (not specifically normal roles) can be included. So your whole argument that the set-up as you see it can't be normal falls apart.

1. Well apart from anything else, find a mini normal game with a scum jailkeeper in it. You can block a power role, you can protect a scumbuddy from a kill, (which by the way, there are no town killing roles so point = null).

2. When has 2 roleblockers ever cancelled each other out? Bullshit button again.

3. But a normal setup limits it, it keeps you in a box of predefined limits which you are outside of right now.

1. What relevance to the set-up here does any other game have? None. And note that protecting a buddy also limits that buddy’s ability to use powers or make the Nightkill. Nice of you to not look at the offset when making your argument.

2. Zang’s Mini 1003 had a Town Jailkeeper (myself) and a scum Roleblocker. The possibility existed that we could use our actions on each other. Yet that game was certified as Normal. And once again Natural Action Resolution was created to provide a reasonable solution to any potential problems. You can throw rhetoric (bullshit) all you want but it doesn’t make your argument correct.

3. The quote above begs to differ.

Should I have waited an hour to post that he was right? I did put some thought into it, but in all honesty, what thought do I need here.

I just need to run scenario's. If you have hidden behind boberz, it makes him confirmed town, that leaves from your p.o.v. Locke/me. Scum kill boberz as confirmed town. If you are scum, then it still leaves boberz as confirmed town, unless you are town and are lying. Im going to go out on a limb here and say you are a better player than that.

I forgot you stated you hid behind boberz.

Emphasis added -

First bolded – You are strawmanning here. The point is that you shouldn’t have needed Locke to point out the natural issue to you if you are Town. You should have considered it on your own. Instead you only 'think' about it once the obviousness of the situation is presented to you in black and white.

Second bolded – You ‘forgot’ that my claim (which you have focused on almost exclusively today) included hiding behind boberz twice? I’m not buying that for a second.

This is bad play. You should be considering all options at the moment, even the possibility that I am not scum. Isn't it just slightly interesting that Locke has all but clammed up now. Yes, he's been busy. However when he does post, he doesn't comment on this.

Strawman again. I’ve considered the other option (Locke as scum). Based on my VC analysis work and reviewing both your ISOs I think you are the scum. Locke’s play today and yesterday hasn’t changed my opinion and neither has your play. So I don’t forsee my vote changing unless some new information arises.

I find it ironic that you are attacking Locke for not providing input.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #2 of Day 7

Porochaz (1) <-~ MagnaofIllusion

Not voting (3) <-~ boberz, Locke Lamora, Porochaz

4 living; 3 will do it.

Deadline:

Thursday, October 22nd at 12:00 P.M. EST

[Locke Lamora]

Vote: Porochaz

Sometimes you just have to admit your reads are wrong. I went back and reviewed both Magna and Poro's posts for links to the Erg0/Jason slots, as well as those slots themselves, and I found that Poro's behaviour seems like the more likely scum. In particular, Zach votes for Poro early on but then shifts his suspicion to Magna with more force behind his arguments and largely ignores Poro. Magna also goes after Jason pretty hard and points out that Zach started lurking as soon as the pressure lifted off him. Erg0's comments on the two players seem to revolve largely around the ideas that Magna is town and Poro is null, and he is relatively wishy-washy on Poro's actions.

I also went over Magna's posts again with the claimed hider actions in mind and they seem to fit in. He doesn't really go after Farside or Jack at all after he has hidden behind them; that comment I found on Farside is the only real point against either of them following his successful hiding. Either he's telling the truth or it's an incredibly well-judged and planned fakeclaim.

My gut has been telling me all game that Poro is town but a thorough reread indicates that he's far more likely to be Erg0 and Jason's buddy than Magna is.

[Locke Lamora]

Magna: one more thing - is use of your ability compulsory?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: one more thing - is use of your ability compulsory?

Yes, each even night I have to hide. That was the impetus for my request that we either Massclaim or No Lynch Day 6 but not both. If we were to mass-claim I judged the likelihood that I could draw a NK attempt plummeted without lying about the mechanics of my role (claiming Odd Night Hider), which at this point in the game would be incredibly Anti-Town.

[Porochaz]

Here is the dilemma I have someone with a shoddy claim, that I don't want to believe as it seems unlikely that incog would put 3 investigative roles in one game with a roleblocker. That over powers town immensely and we've argued this point to death and if we cut the crap, I think its not something incog would do, I think its too difficult. However, I have been sure farside has been scum all game and whilst it subsided a bit with L.L, that sudden u-turn, seems really off and as much as I dont want to believe the claim, farside being off is still my overriding memory of this game. MoI, Im asking you, to have one last look at Locke and farside and me. You don't have to unvote, you dont have to change your opinion remotely, I just want you to make sure you have a balanced opinion when you lynch and its not biased by our recent convo. You can call this an AtE, it is, Im not going to make any bones about it. I know my case of gut, is not good. However I like to think I have played farside enough times that I can read her. Please, just make sure.

Boberz I ask the same of you.

vote Locke Lamora

[Locke Lamora]

Magna: did you have any concerns that Boberz would be the NK last night?

Uh...Poro? Boberz has replaced into Farside's slot. I've been here the whole time.

[Porochaz]

Heh, well that kinda shows my play this game doesn't it.

unvote, vote MoI

then. Don't like the u-turn but as I havent had a unreliable gut read on you MoI's the way to go.

Goddamn it, just lynch me. I am not scum, I can't really do anything to prove that Im not. Im not going to vote for myself I leave that to Mr. Confirmed town/Mr. Person Ive had a gut scum read on throughout. I am sorry to the rest of town and Incog. I don't really know what else to do, I think this can go alongside hospital (?) mafia as my worst game of all time, regardless of alignment. Apologies, maybe next time I'll try and stick to one/two games at a time and not get into this mess.

Prozac

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: did you have any concerns that Boberz would be the NK last night?

I had some concerns. You can’t with only four players left in the game. Given my read on Poro as the last scum over yourself I didn’t think he would go for either of you. He’s been pushing boberz slot as scum based on his gut all game long. I think the only reason he hasn’t made a stronger effort to go after him (post 712 not withstanding) is the fact that I’ve more or less 99.99% cleared that slot. You’ve given him a Town read pretty much all game long. So keeping you around makes sense in LYLO.

That said it was a gamble simply because I can’t be sure that Poro is the last scum. And as a gamble it made me somewhat uneasy.

712 and 714 – I’m not sure what to say about these. 712 is so stupid (he can’t have forgotten that you were originally in the game can he?) it makes my head spin. 714 is basically a wall of AtE. I don’t know Poro well enough to know if he’d take shot at the “Look he’s given up and admitted he sucked he must be frustrated Town” gambit as scum or not.

At this point I’m waiting to see what boberz has to say.

[Locke Lamora]

A couple of little things are niggling at me. Number one:

Zaj and CDB need to post more, especially CDB.

Why did you single out CDB?

Number two is the fact that had our weak Doc protected scum N1 or N2 and our hider hidden behind scum N2, with two mislynches and two successful kills, scum win on N2. I'm aware that it's unlikely, but it's possible. I was always under the impression that it was bad for game balance to allow a game of this size to be over before D3.

[boberz]

Balance definately doesnt point towards hider.Is there some scum PR that could stop this from occurring??? But as we have a goon cop I suspect we have more than one goon,makes sense to me. But why claim hider if it is a crapclaim.

[boberz]

A couple of little things are niggling at me. Number one:

Zaj and CDB need to post more, especially CDB.

Why did you single out CDB?

Number two is the fact that had our weak Doc protected scum N1 or N2 and our hider hidden behind scum N2, with two mislynches and two successful kills, scum win on N2. I'm aware that it's unlikely, but it's possible. I was always under the impression that it was bad for game balance to allow a game of this size to be over before D3.

All this is good

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why did you single out CDB?

I had to go back to review the thread at the point I made that statement.

I made that post at 109 on August 5th. At that point both players had 2 posts. Over two months later I can’t say as I have a clear recollection why CDB’s lurking warranted his mentioning twice in the sentance.

Number two is the fact that had our weak Doc protected scum N1 or N2 and our hider hidden behind scum N2, with two mislynches and two successful kills, scum win on N2. I'm aware that it's unlikely, but it's possible. I was always under the impression that it was bad for game balance to allow a game of this size to be over before D3.

I agree that a Mini Game shouldn’t end before Day 3. That said it takes a specific set of circumstances to end the game N2. It’s similar to a 8-3-1 Town-Mafia-SK set-up. With a non-NK immune SK two mislynches on Town combined with N1 deaths of Town * 2 and N2 deaths of Town and the Serial Killer ends that game N2 at 3-3. Not impossible but unlikely. In the end you’ll have to ask Incog about the set-up after the game ends to get his thoughts about why he crafted the set-up he did.

But why claim hider if it is a crapclaim.

This is basically a WIFOM argument but I will echo– what possible motive would I have to craft a fake-claim that essentially puts me under scrutiny. I wasn’t under pressure at all going into N6.

[boberz]

I dont acknowledge the term wifom I am intelligent enough to make my decisions having considered my statements. You are brushing off this setup stuff too easily forme. But then I think 'why would he fakeclaim hider' then i think 'bugger me hider is an easy fakeclaim for scum in so many situations, this is something said in plenty of MD discussions before now, no secret.

MM I cannot decide.

[Porochaz]

Erm, Im not sure but has deadline passed, you better decide quickly.

[boberz]

Ok so MoI has a clear on me twice. Tbh I think I have to accept this really. SO I am picking between Locke and Poro.

I am probably wrong but here goes:

vote poro

(all file in behind the confirmed townie.)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Erm, Im not sure but has deadline passed, you better decide quickly.

Actually, based on Incognito’s last post at 709 the countdown clock is shown here

Day 7 Deadline.

So boberz has approximately 21 more hours to actually make a vote.

(all file in behind the confirmed townie.)

Umm Locke and I are already voting for Poro so we’re ‘in file’ if you do actually want to vote for Poro.

[Incognito]

Sorry guys. I made a mistake with the timeanddate website and set up the clock to be for tomorrow when it should have been today. As a result, I'm going to err on the side of caution and grant you guys an extra day to make a decision. Your deadline is set for tomorrow at noon.