Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[RedCoyote]

I'm prodding evilpacman, and I'm also going to make sure that Antihero understands his role.

Vote Count

silverbullet999(0) -

Jack(3)

- a2rudeboy, SnakePlissken, evilpacman18

evilpacman18(1)

- PranaDevil
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -
Antihero(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -
SnakePlissken(0) -

PranaDevil(2)

- LynchMePls, silverbullet999

Not Voting(5)

- vollkan, Pomegranate, Antihero, curiouskarmadog, Jack

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch

Deadline: November 1st, 2010, 2:00 AM, Central Standard Time

[Antihero]

Hello Jack, pacman, pom. =D

Catching up

[SnakePlissken]

unvote

. Not sure where my votes now going right now, but from reading the discussions I don't think Jack is the right place for now.

[vollkan]

Damn it I wanted to win a prize...

Lynch made a big post so he must be town

I also am apparently not only voting.. but have quite literally been vanished into a ghost?

Yes, you are very sneaky like that. Fixed.

not only not*

lmao

*scratches head*
*looks at the sky*
*ponders*
*scratches head some more*
*scribbles on the ground*
*stares at scribble just made*
*ponders it*
*nods head*
*brings redcoyote over*
*redcoyote reads*
VOTE: prana
*redcoyote and i shake hands*
*redcoyote leaves*
*ponders more*

*looks above*
*slightly confused look*
*scribbles on ground some more*
*it reads*
What happened to giving up?
*stares and waits*

*sticks jack's fingers in his ears*

*shakes head*

*scratches head*

Has Jack got a protege in Silver Bullet too?

*blushes*

*scratches head*
*studies ground some more*

*asks "What the hell is wrong with you?"*

[silverbullet999]

*asks "What the hell is wrong with you?"*

*stares*
*grumbles*
*studies ground some more*

[vollkan]

*asks "What the hell is wrong with you?"*

*stares*
*grumbles*
*studies ground some more*

Shake your head if you have a post restriction.

[evilpacman18]

Two days already? Content when I wake up.

[PranaDevil]

I can't believe I have to explain how it is scummy, but here goes. If you do it in order to look town ("look how pro-town I am, I'm going to unvote so we don't have a quick lynch, aren't I awesomely pro-town guys") then it's scummy. Its a statement that looks designed to appear town. I'd even find just a plain unvote less scummy. But your unvote comes with "reasoning" that is designed to look townie (I want to prevent a mislynch) but is actually terrible logic (there is no way a mislynch would occur in the 24 hours you claimed you'd be gone). If you don't have a reasonable expectation of a quicklynch (which you shouldn't) then there is no reason to point out that you are unvoting to prevent a mislynch, except to create the image that you are pro-town.

Or I was just being honest, y'know. But don't let that stop you.

No, it's a scum tell. The scum tell is that you had information the town shouldn't have. Of course you're going to say now that there is a better explanation for why you had that knowledge, but why should we believe you about that? As it stands, you may refute my assertion, but my assertion is simply valid. The fact is, the game looks to be a 1 scum team game, and you were calling it that D1 before we'd had any flips.

The two large games you played with Kise, how many scum teams were there? Are they the only large games you played here? If that is the case, then why would you assume mini normals with 1 team would have more in common with large normals than large themes would? It seems to me like the number of players in the game has more to do with the number of scum teams likely than normal vs theme.

Stop talking out of your ass for christs sake.

theme =/= normal, at all. Especially when the themed games are based on Square/Enix worlds with a fuck ton of fancy flavour and playing about with various stuff (like including the Death countdown in one), yeah, they both had 2 scum teams, but if you think two scum teams made solely of elementals in one game (which affect the votes on each other as well) and 3 groups (2 scum and a mason group) of 3 with leaders who picked from a choice of roles that they wanted is somehow anywhere even remotely close to normal, you need your head examined.

Prior to this game my view of a NORMAL game was one scum team, and thus far I have yet to play in a NORMAL game with more than 1.

Just because you can't get that through your skull doesn't mean I'm scum, it means you're making a piss poor argument and have decided that rather than realize you were, indeed, wrong, you will just push the point and blatantly ignore the facts surrounding it.

As I've already pointed out, you've still failed to explain what I was supposed to know you meant when you said "he is pointing out things that needed pointing out". From the context of when you said that (right around when he was pointing out Snake's watcher crumb) I had to infer that you meant his pointing out the crumb.

So you admit you weren't following the thread properly? Considering that post was made right after CKD questioned it. The fact you are NOW claiming you had no idea what I meant by it, just proves you weren't actually paying attention and are just making up a bullshit argument and are trying to pretend a post I made didn't exist.

You "inferred" that I meant Snake's watcher crumb so far after I had made that explanation to CKD that you either skimmed the thread (and therefore are taking things out of context, which makes your "case" null and void) or you deliberately avoided acknowledging the post (which again makes your case null and void).

LOL! So now I'm not allowed to interpret other people's posts? Exactly how are we supposed to find scum then? Of course I have to read what people are saying, look at the motivations of those statements, and try and glean alignment from it. The motivation of that post was "let me look town by saying I agree with the CD wagon, but distance from it with a 'I'll look into it more later' statement". If you'd actually delivered on looking into CD, that wouldn't be the case, but given that statement followed up by you NOT looking into it, the only motivation I can see for you even making that post was the blend with the anti-CD vibe that was going on in the town at the time.

Seriously, your actions in regard to the CD wagon should be enough to swing you all by themselves. I can't think of a better example of scum distancing from an impending mislynch.

Even Vollkan, who is riding my ass over shit points at the moment too (you two seem awfully buddy/buddy in fact) has pointed out that you are wrong on this one as it's happened to him.

Not having much time =/= scummy. How can you claim otherwise?

Why wouldn't you assume 2 in a game this size? You have no other defense for this, so of course your defense is going to be "I didn't know". That isn't good enough.

You would rather I lied and made up something then to back up my views that a Large Normal would be, in fact, normal as opposed to what I believe to be abnormal? I hope to fuck you don't play Newbie games, "You didn't know this so you must be scum, lynch him!"

Saying that doesn't make it so.

Just like you saying I'm lying about not knowing something doesn't make it a lie. Correct?

Let me get this straight, if I point out multiple instance of scummy behavior, it's not a case unless I also say "which is more likely scum because (insert X)"?

Considering thus far you HAVE FAILED TO PRODUCE A CASE, then yes, you need to explain why something that is said purely because of how I percieve normals to be is somehow meant to be scummy. If I had played half a dozen Large Normals and found some had 2 scum teams, then it would be understandable to say "He should know there might be two scum teams" but as this is my first (and only) large normal, then I would have to base it on what I view a normal game to be, and that's a town trying to get rid of a scum team. Not a town getting jumped by two scum teams and nobody having a clue. Leave that shit for themed games.

Every single one of your claims about what my case is is a misrep. Every single one. Nice try though.

Yet every single one of your pieces of "evidence" against me is also a misrep. And if I wind up lynched that much would be proven, then where does it leave you? A town player down and all you've done this day phase is tunnel. You're playing like shit, have created a piss poor case in which none of it is scummy unless you either twist things, or deliberately ignore other facts surrounding it. That's not a misrep, that is FACT.

Now onto Vollkan

I might be missing something here. Are any of the following incorrect?
1) You said Looker was obvtown
2) Your reason for that was that he was "pointing out things that needed pointing out"
3) I have now pointed out that it was in defence
4) You say, regardless of whether he was town or scum, it "needed pointing out"

4) seems to directly contradict the combination of 1)+2).

PD+2

contingent on my facts being correct.

I said it was an EXAMPLE not "the only one". "things" not "thing", that s is rather important in number 2.

What part of "I used Looker''s last long post just to show an example to CKD" is missed here? I never said that was the one and only, I also never said that post was the extent of what made me believe him town, but it showed a damned good reason why I felt he was at that point in time.

I'm beginning to believe that both you and LMP are just hell bent on getting rid of me, and are therefore deliberately trying to move as far away from anything that actually disproves what either of you are saying by ignoring the bits that prove the arguments wrong.

To an extent. If hypothetically Jack and X were tied for my number one suspect position, I'd vote Jack in a heartbeat, given the great big question mark over him.

But how would you ever know when he's a suspect if you can't tell his alignment from his posting anyway? This directly goes against the fact that you are suggesting we shouldn't lynch based on Jack's playstyle, however it's only that which is scummy because I've not seen any actual step to help the town, even his latest list of suspects has no reasoning for them.

1 - It stops town being uncertain in the late game, which can create a mislynch at a point where a mislynch could be disastrous (As if he's scum we might lynch non-scum because "it's his playstyle" but then we may also wind up lynching him as town because those left at that point have bad feelings about him).

This sort of argument often comes up in relation to VIs. My problem with it is that it assumes that the risk involved in a lynch with a greater-than-average likelihood of NOT hitting scum (because it isn't alignment-based) is justified by reference to risks later on in the game.

But how is if a "greater-than-average" likelihood? Someone's just as likely to be town as scum in any game. Just ask "Always scum in the UKFF" Snake, I don't think he's played a game over there where he's been anything but scum, and I would laugh my ass off if he turned up scum here too.

So to that end, my point is whether it's day 1, or LyLo, you would still be uneasy about lynching someone who has seemed scummy all game purely because it's their playstyle. VI's aren't quite so bad because you can often spot them a mile off, but someone who you can never get a read on, whether they're scum or town, is someone who is more dangerous to town alive in LyLo than dead in the early game.

2 - It means he might actually realize his "playstyle" of being useless and unhelpful means he gets lynched almost instantly in every game and force him to start being helpful.

I have a problem with this sort of policy argument. The cardinal rule of Mafia is "Play to meet your win condition". If you are pushing lynches for policy reasons, you are violating that rule.

Except you are killing two birds with one stone, it's not something that happens seperately from the above, it happens alongside it, thus you are playing towards your win condition AND trying to force them to actually play the game in the future.

However, at the moment I would rather see an evilpacman lynch for the reasons I've previously stated. But if it comes down to "Prana or Jack" I would actually say stuff conventional views and prefer the lynch of myself because more people seem uncertain of me than they do of Jack, and from what I believe it would put a spanner in the works of the scum's gameplan (i.e. get the harder to lynch guy out of the way, then leave me for an easy lynch down the line).

Doesn't the above assume Jack is town?

It does, and right now, rightly so. Considering evilpacman's actions, jumping on you as he did, then switching to Jack, who is the harder one to lynch (and to answer an earlier question I almost forgot, Jack wasn't the leader in votes prior to evilpacman's vote hop, we were tied, and the way LMP has been acting, and how Vollkan always appears pro-town, it does make me the easier lynch, even more so when more and more people are stating Jack is definitely town because "that's his playstyle").

Just consider this:

If scum can push to get rid of Jack now, at a point where people are beginning to say "he's town, that's just his playstyle" or words to that affect, what's going to happen if I'm lynched and they are down one person who could (so they thought at the time) help them lynch Jack?

Prior to evilpacman's vote I had been pushing for Jack's lynch, but the way it's been done just smells strongly of scum, and makes me believe he wanted me to switch my vote over to him. Someone even mentioned as much at the time about how it would put Jack at L-1 if I threw my vote over to him. Then it would just need someone to bung one more vote over to get rid of him, and people have been suspect of Jack all game (except those pointing out it's his playstyle).

So yeah, Scum wanted to lynch Jack now, with me alive, then they could just swing round and try getting shot of me knowing LMP and Vollkan (if one or both aren't already scum) would back them up. Two mislynches in as many days, and town's close to being fucked.

So based on that, I don't believe Jack to be scum. I do believe evilpacman to be blatant scum, and in need of lynching.

[Jack]

Yeah that "if pd put his vote on it'd be l-1" post was scummy. Who was that a2rudboy?

[vollkan]

I said it was an EXAMPLE not "the only one". "things" not "thing", that s is rather important in number 2.

What part of "I used Looker''s last long post just to show an example to CKD" is missed here? I never said that was the one and only, I also never said that post was the extent of what made me believe him town, but it showed a damned good reason why I felt he was at that point in time.

In which post/s have you explicitly pointed to other examples?

If you haven't, why not? It seems bizarre that, if you had other examples, you wouldn't raise them, especially given how much this example has come under attack.

But how would you ever know when he's a suspect if you can't tell his alignment from his posting anyway? This directly goes against the fact that you are suggesting we shouldn't lynch based on Jack's playstyle, however it's only that which is scummy because I've not seen any actual step to help the town, even his latest list of suspects has no reasoning for them.

I don't know when he is suspicious. I've said that multiple times now.

Let me put in bold for you:

I can't read Jack

What I do know, however, is that the way he is playing is not a scumtell. No matter how ridiculously anti-town it might be, it isn't scummy. Yes, it sucks that he is unreadable. But ignoring actual suspicions today and going down the path of lynching him simply because we can't read him is a recipe for potential disaster.

But how is if a "greater-than-average" likelihood? Someone's just as likely to be town as scum in any game. Just ask "Always scum in the UKFF" Snake, I don't think he's played a game over there where he's been anything but scum, and I would laugh my ass off if he turned up scum here too.

It's a greater than average likelihood of a mislynch for the simple reason that, in lynching Jack, we would be lynching explicitly because of playstyle and not because of alignment. Alignment-based lynches are, assuming our scumhunting abilities are not worthless, more likely going to hit scum than if we lynched based on non-alignment-relevant factors.

(And, of course, if our scumhunting abilities aren't going to give us a better-than-random chance at hitting scum, then we may as well just use random.org to determine who we vote)

So to that end, my point is whether it's day 1, or LyLo, you would still be uneasy about lynching someone who has seemed scummy all game purely because it's their playstyle. VI's aren't quite so bad because you can often spot them a mile off, but someone who you can never get a read on, whether they're scum or town, is someone who is more dangerous to town alive in LyLo than dead in the early game.

Wall of text below trying to end this debate. Skip to "In short" if you are so inclined.

There are I think three elements to LYLO danger:
1) Jack being scum and not being lynched because of unreadability
2) Jack being scum and being able to lynch townies based on nonsense arguments
3) Jack being town and being lynched for nonsense arguments
(For VIs, there is a 4) "The person being town and lynching town for nonsense arguments", however since Jack is not a VI, he just plays crazily, I don't think Jack-town would lynch for bad reasons, even if he expressed things badly)

Note that 3) is quite unlikely to happen given that Jack's play is clearly a nulltell. It should also be noted that 2) can't arise on its own; in any LYLO scenario, a lynch requires at least one townie's support. This is obviously by no means a solid guarantee since townies can and do push terrible lynches, but it needs to borne in mind that Jack-scum can't do anything in LYLO on his own.

1) is clearly a big problem. In a LYLO situation, it would basicaly require the remaining town to weigh up the scumminess of the other player/s against the uncertainty of Jack. For example, if I was in a 2:1 LYLO faced with Jack and a player I have only minor suspicions of, my response would probably be to vote Jack just on the basis of that uncertainty. I would note, however, that you yourself have implied below in your most recent post that you think Jack is probably town, which diminishes this risk.

Now, having discussed the above, it's obvious that a lynch of Jack now avoids all three risks.
BUT there are countervailing (and, I think, overwhelming) risks in lynching today:
1) Chance is no-better-than-random of hitting scum
2) Because the lynch is playstyle not alignment, there is no information value
3) Scum get to NK freely
4) Opportunity cost of foregoing a lynch with a higher likelihood of hitting scum

In short:

None of the risks inherent in Jack surviving are insurmountable (and the only serious one, you yourself logically think is not as likely as it might be). In contrast, there are unavoidable costs and serious risks in lynching Jack today.

Except you are killing two birds with one stone, it's not something that happens seperately from the above, it happens alongside it, thus you are playing towards your win condition AND trying to force them to actually play the game in the future.

See above. It ends up simply being about future games, which should not be a relevant consideration in this game.

[Antihero]

Still doing my catchup (this isn't it), but I just saw this.

Let me put in bold for you: I can't read Jack

That's OK, because Jack is town.

[SnakePlissken]

Still doing my catchup (this isn't it), but I just saw this.

Let me put in bold for you: I can't read Jack

That's OK, because Jack is town.

If your still playing catchup, how do you know that Then? Because your scum and know who is town?

[PranaDevil]

I said it was an EXAMPLE not "the only one". "things" not "thing", that s is rather important in number 2.

What part of "I used Looker''s last long post just to show an example to CKD" is missed here? I never said that was the one and only, I also never said that post was the extent of what made me believe him town, but it showed a damned good reason why I felt he was at that point in time.

In which post/s have you explicitly pointed to other examples?

If you haven't, why not? It seems bizarre that, if you had other examples, you wouldn't raise them, especially given how much this example has come under attack.

I haven't. Why haven't I? Because ISO'ing a dead player at this stage is ridiculous when I don't honestly have enough time to fully ISO a living player. If I have the time to do it... guess what? I still wont, I'll instead ISO someone living who I believe to be an issue.

Let me put in bold for you:

I can't read Jack

That was my point. You said if Jack was tied for your number 1 suspect you would lynch him over the other player. But HOW would he ever become your number 1 suspect when the only information you get out of him is just terrible playstyle? How would he EVER, at any point, become joint "number 1 suspect" if you write him off regardless?

It's actually starting to concern me that you would suggest that the only thing you can actually take from him (his playstyle) is something you wouldn't lynch him for, but also suggest that you would lynch him if he was joint number 1 suspect for you, of which you also admit he would never be.

It's like watching the first episode of Yes Prime Minister all over again, exchanging the Nuclear Bombs for Jack's Playstyle.

It's a greater than average likelihood of a mislynch for the simple reason that, in lynching Jack, we would be lynching explicitly because of playstyle and not because of alignment.

Could it not be argued that if you mislynch based purely on gut that you would, essentially, be doing the same?

See above. It ends up simply being about future games, which should not be a relevant consideration in this game.

False, it is a small part of the issue that benefits their playstyle, however that is not the be all end all of it, and the fact you are choosing to ignore the fact that Jack late game generally will mean issues at hand and confusion for all at the moment in favour of calling my argument "simply being about future games" is rather... well, lacking.

Especially when I note you ignored the entire section where I stated I didn't want to lynch Jack, and I was actually talking more general circumstances as I currently believe Jack to be town (through others actions I'll admit, not his own which are still awful) and evilpacman to be definite scum.

[vollkan]

Still doing my catchup (this isn't it), but I just saw this.

Let me put in bold for you: I can't read Jack

That's OK, because Jack is town.

If your still playing catchup, how do you know that Then? Because your scum and know who is town?

Why do you think Antihero made that post?

[silverbullet999]

Shake your head if you have a post restriction.

*stares at post in confusion*
*scratches head*
*is not sure how to say no without shaking head*
*is saddened by that fact*
*goes in search of redcoyote again*

[vollkan]

*facepalms*

[vollkan]

Okay, I've had a look through silver's recent posting history in other games, and I can't find any precedent for what he is doing. So, I think it's safe to say that he has a post restriction.

If anyone sees (or even thinks it's possible) that someone is under a very subtle post restriction please point it out to me. I suck at noticing these things.

*points it out to you*

[Jack]

vote:silverbullet

[vollkan]

Vote: silverbullet999

[PranaDevil]

I still want to get rid of evilpacman, but just skimming silverbullet's ISO shows he hasn't even attempted to do anything so far.

unvote;
vote: silverbullet999

However, I'd also like to hear from him in regards to WHY he has deliberately done nothing thus far.

[evilpacman18]

Hi Anti

Vollkan is still scum and you're all blind. In PD vs. LMP (which is a rather annoying argument to read, might I add) PD is scum or neither are scum.

Looking through PD's iso, I noticed that he refused to vote for Espeonage the entire day and was quite integral in getting him NOT lynched like he should have been. He did vote ESP only after the wagon had let off steam. On that same day, he was very hypocritical, jumping on the neighbor thing asking for claims when he had got on jack about rolefishing slightly before that.

I think it's safe to say PD is scum just based on his D1 associations with Espeonage. If PD flips scum, my scumread on jack will be moot.

unvote, vote: PranaDevil

[PranaDevil]

evilpacman, make some sense for once.

LMP is scum with me, or not scum at all? Huh?

If I flip scum, then your scumread on jack is moot? How does that work?

As for the claims, go pay closer attention because that's a spectacular fail. It was mentioned AFTER the claims had been made, and I wanted a full name claim to see whether or not CKD was just talking bollocks about whether he needed to announce his claim early on or not.

No surprise you've jumped from Jack over to me now though, so far:

Go after Vollkan who always looks town, and thus is likely a danger to you, so you try swinging people to vote him, that goes nowhere and you see Jack as an easy lynch, but one that might not be so easy later on and try and get rid of him, now that's failed you've just jumped to the only other main wagon that could pose problems to the scum and might go somewhere.

So far we have evilpacman and silverbullet as known scum with LMP being in there tentatively (I still want to call him scummy thanks to his tunnel vision and poor arguments, but I feel if he were scum he would be trying harder to create a better case. So while I'm not all that sure, it's still iffy). Anyone else want to step forward?,

[evilpacman18]

LMP is scum with me, or not scum at all? Huh?

If I flip scum, then your scumread on jack is moot? How does that work?

LMP is not scum at all. I said either you're both town or he's town and you're scum.

Because of your relations with jack this whole game and how you've been trying to get him lynched the whole time, I don't think you would be on the same team. I'm not ruling out the possibility of a bus but because of how early in the game you were attacking him, I highly doubt it. If anybody here is trying to use jack as an easy lynch, it's you. And my voting pattern has nothing to do with other peoples' voting patterns. I honestly had no idea you had 4 votes or however many on you when I started reading your iso.

[silverbullet999]

*sigh*
*scribbles on ground*
*calls you all over to read it*
*it reads*
"Look at my posts a bit more carefully"
*Stares at his wagon*
*scribbles more on ground*
*calls you all over to read it*
*it reads*
"This wagon is on the wrong track"
*stands and waits*

[silverbullet999]

*wonders*
*gives you all powers to read his mind*
"What is a post restriction?"
*Is what you read from my mind*