/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Fate]

Any reason you decided to be incredible obvscum ooba?

@mith: yeah he does. But the benefits of when we're both town far outweigh those rare games one of us is scum anyway. (AND IF SPYREX WOULD GIVE ME THE FUCKING COURTESY TO SHOOT ME NEXT TIME AND NOT USE ME ITD BE EVEN BETTER)

[SpyreX]

Ohh lets not forget your godfathery revenge, mr.

I had ONE night to, really, take a shot and I thought CTD was the vig for reasons I dont know.

[Fate]

Who me? Scum?

That was a faulty set-up remember?

I'm never scum and terrible when I am <_<

[SpyreX]

Even then I thoguht you were town soo getting the setup to help you didn't change that.

AND YOU LYNCHED ME FOR THE WIN.

I AM NOT THAT RUDE MR

[Fate]

I TRIED TO GET ECTO LYNCHED.

YOU SAW HOW MUCH I TRIED.

I EVEN SLOWROLLED WHEN YOU WERE AT L-1.

[SpyreX]

YET YOU HAVE KILLED ME AND I HAVE NEVER KILLED YOU

WHO IS THE VICTIM HERE

[Fate]

YOU USING ME LIKE A TOY TWICE WHEREAS I MERCY KILLED YOU. BETTER TO BE SHOT FROM THE BACK THEN LEAD FROM THE FRONT OFF A CLIFF.

TWICE

[mith]

Thanks, SpyreX. I don't think it affected my play apart from yesterday's "Oh, well lynch me then" nonsense. (And possibly being a little more annoyed at the capslock stuff than I would otherwise have been. Fate replaced in at a

really

bad time.) But in between... Mafia is pretty relaxing when you are basically unlynchable.

(What's going on with me isn't private - it's posted on facebook - but not something I want to discuss on the forums.)

[SpyreX]

<3 LOOK WE HAVE BOTH MADE MISTAKES

You really were unlynchable, too. Just enough in just the right spots and we were on PR lockdown (it was fairly apparent you werent a PR) so it was tough to try and squeeze one out.

[Herodotus]

And Jan was still way overvalued as far as being a worry.

You could have used it much, much more effectively. At least, in theory. If you had janitored DGB, you might have gotten a Rhinox lynch, for example. (Although that particular situation had other overriding issues.) Or Zoraster; I think you could have gotten some dividends from people thinking he was prob-scum.

Bah to the last three lynches; I would have opposed all of them strongly. And bah to "Plumegranite is so obvtown," "Plumegranite is 100% confirmed town," etc. I would have pushed for their lynch starting from day 2, but figured I couldn't get anywhere due to their V/LA until deadline. And cross-bussing with DGB is practically a scumtell.

But Spyrex had me fooled. I should have put more weight on his Hoopla vote in 545.

[PokerFace]

I haven't most after game comments as i have been busy so can you address this again if i missed it.

We didn't want players to realize there were TWO vigs, so that a tracked vig had a good chance of being a free lynch for us. There were also chances of counterclaiming which would have been useful to us.

But there was no way you could gaurantee a vig would be tracked. If you had not got lucky that early would you have just never killed as scum? Seems like a rather risky crazed idea to me. How would it be better than just getting 3 kills at night and getting rid of town faster? I don't think it would confusion would still be there and scum could more easily claim vig if tracked and maybe get away with it.

Also I don't think u needed to distance yourself or single out plum the most in your vote count analysis. Was distancing there your intention or did it just work out that way after your math? SpyreX and ooba were already kinda seen as scummy so that didn't effect them. They looked bad regardless and i practically forgot they were in the analysis. Plum wasn't seen as scummy and could have slipped into endgame with little votes on them. only thing i ever thought wierd about them were reasons i voted them back then and fact HH pointed out the wagon on them and it was 100% town driven at the end of the day. I should have gone with that feeling i guess though i doubt i could have convinced everyone onto her with just that weak thought

I wish i had been vig this game or more often on MS. As I am considering permanant retirment i miss the day and night0 killings of helpless scum

[PokerFace]

editing

I haven't

read

most after game comments as i have been busy so can you address this again if i missed it.

We didn't want players to realize there were TWO vigs, so that a tracked vig had a good chance of being a free lynch for us. There were also chances of counterclaiming which would have been useful to us.

But there was no way you could gaurantee a vig would be tracked. If you had not got lucky that early would you have just never killed as scum? Seems like a rather risky crazed idea to me. How would it be better than just getting 3 kills at night and getting rid of town faster? I don't think it would

be better

. Confusion would still be there and scum could more easily claim vig if tracked and maybe get away with it.

[Elmo]

I stopped reading after KMD claimed so I have no comment beyond

sigh

, bad scum play made valid by horrific town play

[Zorblag]

Troll let people down in this game by flaking. Troll apologizes to everyone but especially Patrick. There no be any excuses (though Troll will go into the reasons a bit) and Troll regrets letting people down.

Having said that, Troll thanks Patrick for the great game and congratulates the scum on a win! Troll probably no would have gotten things right at the end were Troll here (though at the end Troll still found Papa Zito's play so scummy that Troll mostly thought that people were giving Iamausername a free pass for simply showing up and would have wanted to lynch him.) In any case, Troll did like that Fate made the move him did at the end; him no got it quiet right but it was fun to see him pull things into place how him did.

Troll did find Day Zero to be extremely frustrating. It feels like we had the chance to try to make a well reasoned choice about our picks and what to do about claims that would have put is in a measurably better position to start Day One but that the town was absolutely undermined by an attitude that claims are bad and that the whole process was just a waste of time before getting to the real game.

The only reason to say that something is the ideal scum play before it comes up is if it be obvious or if it be false. In the case of how to use the janitor Troll hoped that Troll could do both. Yosarian2 seemed to get away with just stating that the ideal janitor play would be to wipe out Day One's information and the game went along with it. Troll hoped that by planting that idea early the scum might be more inclined to use it this game if we gave the role to them here. Troll no knows if it actually factored into their decision but Troll was pleased with how it eventually got made.

Troll really fails to understand what it is that people fear so much about the rolecop. Roles tend to come out on their own anyhow (this game was a fairly extreme example of that) which will work towards making it's successful uses redundant and it's power diminishes as the game goes along. That so many were simply not willing to consider the role struck Troll as pretty crazy. Though, again, that so many just knee-jerked into claims are bad came as a disappointment to Troll given the caliber of the players Troll thinks that we were dealing with here.

In any case, Day Zero really killed Troll's enthusiasm for the game and then Troll had RL come up. Troll should have requested a replacement when Troll realized that was happening but MS was particularly unappealing and unimportant seeming to Troll at the time.

Regardless, Troll would still be happy to play with anyone here again and wishes best of luck to all in the future. Again, thanks to Patrick for the excellent setup and modding!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Fate]

TROLL IM NOT READING YOUR WALL AND I KNOW WE WOULDN'T HAVE LYNCHED YOU AHD YOU BEEN IN ADUMBRO'S FAULT.

SO I'LL JUST ASSUME YOU'RE APOLOGIZING

[Fate]

I stopped reading after KMD claimed so I have no comment beyond

sigh

, bad scum play made valid by horrific town play

"Hai my name is Elmo and I vigged Amished over Plumsisters/Ooba/VV, thus causing Kmd to out his track result on me"

[Zorblag]

@Fate, yeah, Troll did that first (well, not for the AdumbroDues part; him got lynched because people equate weak play with scummy play which is garbage reasoning at the level this game should have been played at.) Troll also said Troll liked watching your play at the end even if you were wrong.

Oh, and Troll didn't mention that Troll finds it hilarious that Troll got attacked for thinking that DrippingGoofball hadn't planned to get a Janitor choice out of her fake claim and that she was largely winging it. That no takes being on a scum team with her to know, just familiarity with her play. To be fair though, it seems she was more aware of what was happening than Troll expected.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Fate]

To be completely honest, part of the reason I moved the lynch to from HH to you was not due to Adumbro's weak play but the Troll vs. Papa Zito that had occured MUCH earlier.

Call it another playstyle difference, but I was much more in tune with Papa Zito's play D1, and I trusted his scum read on you. And then your reaction was to turn around and say "No you must be scum Papa Zito! Troll no be scum!" which read of the classic "meta/hydra partner friend" turning on each other because they were of different alignments. (Aka the only way you could defend yourself from Papa Zito's attacks were to invalidate them and attach a scummy motive from them)

[Zorblag]

@Fate, Papa Zito's play was the scummiest Troll has ever seen from him. That includes games in which him was scum. It was like him was going out of his way to undermine anything useful the town could do during Day Zero and then coming up with the most ridiculous reason ever to call Troll scum on Day One.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Fate, though for future reference, Troll almost never has any trouble shrugging off attacks people chose to make on Troll no matter what Troll's alignment be in most games. Unless them pick up some steam (and Papa Zito's wasn't going to there) there be no need to address them based on them being attacks. Him was just going about it in a way that struck Troll as particularly scummy. Or perhaps that just be Troll's take on how Troll plays.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Fate]

I suppose it should be noted that I didn't really ever read D0, or that I was reading it for awhile but then my eyes glazed over and all I remembered from it for the rest of the game was: "DGB claimed Hider, Janitor got hammered, DGB admitted not Hider"

I'll take a guess at what he was doing Day0: Shouting at everyone to hurry up, advocating no claims of any kind, and trying to rush things along with craplogic and little apparent reasoning?

Sounds like the TownZito I know >_>

[Zorblag]

@Fate, Papa Zito has some meta that way but him took it much father than would be reasonable for town. Troll felt that him was hiding behind that expected attitude while intentionally undermining the town's chances. Then him turned around and tried to use an actual rational approach to Day Zero as a reason for Troll to be scum and tried to make the ludicrous claim that it made sense for hiders to have not claimed during the hider claim. Troll gives Papa Zito more credit for being intelligent than the play him was using this game. There be a difference between not loving early strategy and actually working against it in a way that hurts the town.

Mind you, Troll clearly has opinions about Papa Zito's play this game that be opinions. Troll also won't say that Troll's play here was stellar (though, dammit, Troll be

right

! *grins*)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Herodotus]

people equate weak play with scummy play which is garbage reasoning at the level this game should have been played at.

+1

I thought PZ was either a hider or scum who wanted to keep a fakeclaim option open. Then Iam softclaimed vig. I'm a little surprised you didn't shoot him for that, Fate. A fake softclaim trumps the appearance of townieness.

[Patrick]

@HackerHuck, I noticed in passing that you managed the same trick as last time we played together; nailing the entire scumteam apart from DGB who you thought was town, and getting into trouble for it later. You need to be harder on her

@Zorblag, I actually agree with you about the rolecop, but having made four of these games (each of which had scum rolecop as an option), I've grown used to thinking that I just have a quirk about that role. I think every time I've made a setup like this I've worried that it would be seen as too weak, but it never is (it's only been picked once, OTOH).

[AdumbroDeus]

Except I played weakly in a scummy way.

Especially when I misremembered my reasoning for jumping on the "don't out the PR bandwagon" the way I did.




Gah, I can't believe how badly played this game, all my reads were off and I misunderstood a shitload of what people were actually doing.


I'm gonna be beating myself up over this performance for a LONG time.