Newbie 1022 - Game Over

[drmyshottyizsik]

^^Why thank you )

[TheLonging]

e_e

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

drmyshottyizsik - 4 (AurorusVox, Leech, TheLonging, Avish)
Chief - 1 (Kingcheese)
Avish - 1 (VasudeVa)

Not Voting - 3 (Chief, EggyLv999, drmyshottyizsik)

5 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[AurorusVox]

I know that it's

supposed

to be a policy lynch of the former type. But, let's be honest, if it was a policy lynch of the latter type would you just flat out say so? I wouldn't think so.

So, are you suggesting that

either

of us are lying?

If one of Leech/TheLonging was lying about Shotty's meta, then they would both have to have been lying, since they agreed with each other about him. Had either of you considered that?

---

One last question: This is not the first time "self-hammering" has been brought up. Would someone really do that? I'm guessing so, since it is claimed that Shotty has done so in the past. Why? Why would anyone do that?

The point is that most people don't do it (as town). That's why it's an anti-town thing to do, because if you are town, then the only person you know to be town for sure is quite often yourself. Hammering yourself is playing against your own win condition. Scum self-hammering is a different matter. It's a debatable topic which you can find more about in the Mafia Discussion forum. I've also seen both town and scum self-vote (i.e. not hammer). I dislike self-voters, but experience has taught me that it's not a valid scumtell in itself :\

---

I'm not used to not knowing what we have to work with. I don't like it. Not one bit.

Be very careful when you're talking about PRs. It is not a good idea to discuss them in case someone is role-fishing you. If you don't theorise about PRs you can't accidentally crumb (reveal your role).

It seems to me that I am the one people are most mistrustful of at this point. I realize everybody should be under suspicion, but I've garnered quite a bit of it.

Avish is definitely paranoid, and it's just a case of whether this is paranoid town or paranoid scum. She's been reasoning her stances well enough, so I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I might be a little biased here, because in my first non-newbie game, I went to L-2 in RVS and was accused of being jumpy - which was apparently a scumtell under pressure, except for the fact that I was actually town.

---

I'd love more from Chief. Any ETA on that post you promised two days ago?

[VasudeVa]

I think I need to post here. But ehh, I really don't have much to say. I'm unconvinced by Kingcheese's/Avish Player analysis. These three are good places to start D2. I'll be reserving my opinions on Avish, for now. AV has good stuff to say. Eggy hasn't answered my questions yet, Chief is a non-entity and may need to be prodded/replaced. Leech is V/LA.

I also think that once Leech returns, that'll be a good time to hammer since the game is stalling and everyone is hellbent on this lynch.

[Avish]

The point is that most people don't do it (as town). That's why it's an anti-town thing to do, because if you are town, then the only person you know to be town for sure is quite often yourself. Hammering yourself is playing against your own win condition. Scum self-hammering is a different matter. It's a debatable topic which you can find more about in the Mafia Discussion forum. I've also seen both town and scum self-vote (i.e. not hammer). I dislike self-voters, but experience has taught me that it's not a valid scumtell in itself :\

Still not following, but I'll try to figure it all out elsewhere when I have the time.

Be very careful when you're talking about PRs. It is not a good idea to discuss them in case someone is role-fishing you. If you don't theorise about PRs you can't accidentally crumb (reveal your role).

Noted. My little idea with the cop has already been debunked anyway.

Avish is definitely paranoid, and it's just a case of whether this is paranoid town or paranoid scum. She's been reasoning her stances well enough, so I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. I might be a little biased here, because in my first non-newbie game, I went to L-2 in RVS and was accused of being jumpy - which was apparently a scumtell under pressure, except for the fact that I was actually town.

Paranoid townie.

[EggyLv999]

I think I need to post here. But ehh, I really don't have much to say. I'm unconvinced by Kingcheese's/Avish Player analysis. These three are good places to start D2. I'll be reserving my opinions on Avish, for now. AV has good stuff to say. Eggy hasn't answered my questions yet, Chief is a non-entity and may need to be prodded/replaced. Leech is V/LA.

I also think that once Leech returns, that'll be a good time to hammer since the game is stalling and everyone is hellbent on this lynch.

I already answered. Look on page 5.

[AurorusVox]

He asked you a new set.

[Kingcheese]

I think I need to post here. But ehh, I really don't have much to say. I'm unconvinced by Kingcheese's/Avish Player analysis. These three are good places to start D2. I'll be reserving my opinions on Avish, for now. AV has good stuff to say. Eggy hasn't answered my questions yet, Chief is a non-entity and may need to be prodded/replaced. Leech is V/LA.

I also think that once Leech returns, that'll be a good time to hammer since the game is stalling and everyone is hellbent on this lynch.

How are you unconvinced by my play analysis? Do you not agree with my player analysis on certain players? Or are you unhappy with how I analyzed your play thus far? And lastly why wait to stress your thoughts in D2 when you can do it perfectly well in D1? If your complaining about stagnated play, wouldn't stressing your views help to solve the stalling?

[VasudeVa]

How are you unconvinced by my play analysis? Do you not agree with my player analysis on certain players? Or are you unhappy with how I analyzed your play thus far? And lastly why wait to stress your thoughts in D2 when you can do it perfectly well in D1? If your complaining about stagnated play, wouldn't stressing your views help to solve the stalling?

It was pre-emptive. I didn't ask you for a PbPA(player by player analysis), but you did anyway without any real pressure coming from me. Similarly, Avish' defense is pre-emptive too.

It is a good thing to sit on your reads sometimes, otherwise scum can plan ahead of it. That said, I'll keep my reads to myself until I think it's a good time to reveal it.

I'm complaining about stagnated play because it's not really a norm for town to near-unanimously decide on a policy lynch this early. This is really sapping up discussion, and I'm not even sure how I'll properly get reads off people since the threat of the lynch isn't there.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Chief has been prodded (2nd prod).

[Kingcheese]

How are you unconvinced by my play analysis? Do you not agree with my player analysis on certain players? Or are you unhappy with how I analyzed your play thus far? And lastly why wait to stress your thoughts in D2 when you can do it perfectly well in D1? If your complaining about stagnated play, wouldn't stressing your views help to solve the stalling?

It was pre-emptive. I didn't ask you for a PbPA(player by player analysis), but you did anyway without any real pressure coming from me. Similarly, Avish' defense is pre-emptive too.

It is a good thing to sit on your reads sometimes, otherwise scum can plan ahead of it. That said, I'll keep my reads to myself until I think it's a good time to reveal it.

I'm complaining about stagnated play because it's not really a norm for town to near-unanimously decide on a policy lynch this early. This is really sapping up discussion, and I'm not even sure how I'll properly get reads off people since the threat of the lynch isn't there.

In other news: If Avish is indeed being genuine(thus Town), TheLonging may need some form of rope right after we're done lynching shotty(regardless of his flip.) Kingcheese too, maybe. Other newbies need to generate content.

Will elaborate soon after I get my reads straight.

After reading this I assumed you believed I was scum because I wasn't, in your eyes, doing or saying anything productive. I understand your ideology of sitting on reads but personally I would prefer to get my views out there. It makes me feel as if I am being productive. Also I believe if you are NK'ed the remaining townies can go back, look at your views and say: "Well, why was this guy killed. Was it something he pointed out...." Sitting on your reads I believe is a waste. You need to talk it out, and try to formulate your ideas by discussing with others and their views. If I want to declare my view then I am going to.

[Avish]

Out of curiosity, how many Newbie games have you not-newbie guys played. You know, as not-newbies...

[drmyshottyizsik]

two

[EggyLv999]

He asked you a new set.

*facepalm*. Thanks.

1. It isn't very helpful at all. I haven't seen his VI behavior yet, so I don't get why everyone wants to policy lynch him.
2. They just hate shotty from past experience.
3. No decision yet, but I'd love to watch things unfold.

None of these replies are indicative of anything. And also, you are openly declaring your intent to fencesit, which is slightly scummy. This is classic IoA(Information over Analysis). You are telling us stale information openly available in thread, instead of giving us the juicy analysis we need to get a proper read on you. Try again with this new and improved questionnaire for Eggy 2.0(Now, IoA free!...

hopefully

):

1. What do you think of the Shotty wagon? Do you think it is scum-driven, or is it a Town-decided wagon? What is your take on AV/Leech starting the policy lynch wagon? Do you agree with Shotty's lynch?
2. How many scum are on that wagon? Which of the members of that wagon(AurorusVox, Leech, TheLonging, Avish) do you think are probably scum?
3. What do you think of Avish's response to my case? Do you agree with my case on her? Do you think she is Town or Scum?[/quote]


1. I think it is a Town decided wagon, considering that so many people seem to be on it. I don't agree with Shotty's lynch because he hasn't said anything yet, but I don't blame them for starting the bandwagon.
2. I know that at least one scum is on that wagon, but I don't know who.
3. I think that her response isn't that scummy, and your case isn't that great. I have neutral opinion.

[drmyshottyizsik]

i think both scum are on it, due to the fact that the other one has had plenty of time to cassualy hammer by now

[TheLonging]

see dmsis, you assume that scum would even quickhammer, IF you were town.

VV: Did my post answer your question? If not, why didn't you rephrase the question

Avish: Too many, overall on and off site, about 15?

[AurorusVox]

I've played 2 Newbie games on-site before this as an SE* (this is my third) and a fair few non-newbie games as well :p

*you become an SE after completing your second newbie game

[Kingcheese]

1. I think it is a Town decided wagon, considering that so many people seem to be on it. I don't agree with Shotty's lynch because he hasn't said anything yet, but I don't blame them for starting the bandwagon.

But it's the lack of stuff he has said this round is why I'm leaning towards lynching shotty and I'm sure others agree with me. His other games obviously do factor into this policy lynch wagon they have going but shotty has had plenty of time to formulate a defence and he refuses to do so and accepts the fact that he will probably be lynched.

About time for a replacement for Chief?

[AurorusVox]

He gets replaced if he doesn't pick up a third prod, or if he asks to be replaced specifically.

Eggy, do you think Shotty's "defence" has been enough to derail his wagon?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

He gets replaced if he doesn't pick up a third prod, or if he asks to be replaced specifically.

Or if he doesn't pick up the 2nd one. Looking for a replacement for Chief.

[VasudeVa]

Monsieur Vel-Rhan Koon: Please prod Leech. I think his V/LA is a bit longer than he said. (He hasn't come back from my other game too.)

I've had 2 newbie games here. My first game was my real newbie game.

Spoiler: First real newbie game story for the interested.

I replaced into a newbie scum whose scum IC-buddy got lynched D1. I got in in the middle of D2 with an L-1 wagon. I entered the game and started going RAAGEE mode attacking anyone and everyone I could find dirt on. Surprisingly, people bought it and called me paranoid Town. It also involved the Town doc protecting the right person 3 times in a row. It was a miracle I even made it into 3P LyLo, and the deciding Townie was very very conflicted. But alas, I got voted anyway because he went with his gut despite my good reasoning. D:. Ah well, a fun game is a fun game even if you end up losing.

Second one was me as non-newbie entering a 3P LyLo game that nobody wanted to play as Town. And then I won. . Not much to say really.

I have a third one that's ongoing.

---

After reading this I assumed you believed I was scum because I wasn't, in your eyes, doing or saying anything productive. I understand your ideology of sitting on reads but personally I would prefer to get my views out there. It makes me feel as if I am being productive. Also I believe if you are NK'ed the remaining townies can go back, look at your views and say: "Well, why was this guy killed. Was it something he pointed out...." Sitting on your reads I believe is a waste. You need to talk it out, and try to formulate your ideas by discussing with others and their views. If I want to declare my view then I am going to.

I know what you're going about and I get your logic. But NK speculation is a bit frowned upon in this site because it is WIFOM too.

I suppose you could say that it does make sense that 'A' killed 'B' because 'B' tunneled hard on 'A', but the problem here is: How do you prove it? I suppose that because 'B' is dead, it does sort of incriminate 'A'. But given how precious PRs are in this site, 'A' would look for signs to find and kill the cop than kill off 'B' (Unless they think that 'B' is the cop.).

Although I do believe that NK speculation works...but don't use it as the meat of your case because you won't convince anyone here. If you think 'A' killed 'B' because 'B' tunnelled on 'A', find dirt on 'A' and get him lynched.

(And besides, who said I won't reveal my reads by the days end?)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

LordChronos replaces Chief.

[Leech]

I'm back from my V/LA, it was a lot longer than I expected it to be. I'll read what I missed and make a post ASAP.

[LordChronos]

First off, hi Leech and Vas.

Second, from quickly reading the thread it seems we have a uncooperative player on our hands here. Leech, could you link me the game where he self hammered in LyLo as town? I think you mentioned this early on.

I'll work on a more detailed read of the game.