Newbie 1022 - Game Over

[TheLonging]

LC and TL are battling for the silver medal in this game's Scummy Olympics. TL for possible chainsaw among others(I forget right now, but I remember having bad feelings about his slot too. Here's me reminding myself to post them once I have time/goodmemory.)

The last time you mention me was quite a while ago, and you've shown no hints of anything at all to me, so why the sudden accusation (which is only a supposed possible chainsaw, and a gut feeling)?

[LordChronos]

LordChronos' vote seems like an opportunity to try and push a wagon on Avish, with flimsy reasoning. It really is opportunistic, and if I wasn't voting for shotty I'd vote for LordChronos.

FoS: LC

Or, you know, I might have been trying to get reactions from Avish and/or others. Which it seems I have done. The game just sitting on a policy lynch of shotty with no real pushes anywhere else with votes makes for less information.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

drmyshottyizsik - 2 (AurorusVox, TheLonging)
Chief - 1 (Kingcheese)
Avish - 3 (VasudeVa, Leech, LordChronos)
Leech - 1 (Avish)

Not Voting - 2 (EggyLv999, drmyshottyizsik)

5 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[drmyshottyizsik]

vel I voted for AV

[Kingcheese]

I apologize for my sudden flight from reality. Let me make a quick read through of recent developments and I'll see if I can make a post about it.

Oh and a belated welcome to LordChronos

[Kingcheese]

I'm beginning to get suspicious of Vas for his sudden vote on Thelonging. As Thelonging said he hasen't mentioned him much for most of the entire game. However I also have a "gut" feeling against him as Vas does. The only post he really, in my eyes, contributed in was the one explaining his Shotty vote way back I believe. Mostly his posts just seem a way to avoid a prod. Such as: e-e

I know I switched to both sides of the argument there but I can see both sides. It wouldn't make sense if Vas was trying to bandwagon because Thelonging hasn't received any pressure. So it is most probably his honest gut feel. Which I sort of felt as well when he put Shotty at L-1.

I have a theory about EggyLuv but I don't think I'll voice my opinion yet. I believe that if I do at this stage in the game it will be very Anti-Town so I think I'll wait a while and see how the game takes form.

I also think that you guys may be reading to much into Avish. But I'm not really sure, all I can really see you are debating are a few word choices. (which I guess is sometimes great for scum hunting but still) Maybe more will come to light for me to change my view. At the moment I'm unconvinced.

[LordChronos]

Kingcheese, Vas has never voted TheLonging in this game. Are you referring to his last post where he said that TL and I were battling for second scummiest player?

The case against Avish right now is basically that she was opportunistic in her vote for Shotty and that her question about the number of games we have played as non-newbies was irrevelant and distracting. She explained the other comment that was complained about.

@Avish

Sorry about the misperception of your comment about the more neutral players giving you problems.

@TheLonging

You said you would vote me if you weren't voting Shotty. Am I correct in assuming that you find what I did scummy? Do you think shotty is likely to be scum?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

vel I voted for AV

unvote
vote AV

Is AV Aurorus Vox or Avish?

Votes/Unvotes that reasonably follow the guidelines specified above,

and are unambiguous with respect to player nicknames/abbreviations

, will count. Attempting to fake a vote will result in a Modkill.

[Avish]

Yeahh, Avish is scum alright. Pity, I kind of liked her. She's doing a good job sounding genuine but actions speak louder than words, and there be common newbie scumtells in her play. (Overdefensiveness, survival-ism etc.)

Oh, but I'm not, you know. Heh. Over-defensive? I'm being put in a position where I must be defensive. Survival-ism? I'm not as concerned with my survival as you think I am, but why exactly should I just sit back and let myself get lynched? Losing townies doesn't help the town. It is, of course, true that the town is more important than the individuals that make it up and that even if I am the first one lynched I'll still win if the town wins. I haven't really been trying to save myself so much as draw my accusers into discussion. I think I've got a pretty good chance of getting the axe. After all, I am the leading candidate right now. If that happens the townies can hopefully look back at all the debate that has been going on with me and about me and figure out who is actually mafia.

If you are not scum you are making the mistake of assuming that my brand newbie a** will behave like players you are used to. Keep in mind that I come from somewhere where mafia is played in a very different way. THAT is actually why I asked my oh-so distracting question. I was trying to figure out how used you guys are to actually playing with newbies. You kind of keep making me chuckle with this "common newbie scumtells" bit. I assure you that if you want to understand me you need to think outside the box. I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Lynch me and you will see for yourself.

[TheLonging]

I'm beginning to get suspicious of Vas for his sudden vote on Thelonging. As Thelonging said he hasen't mentioned him much for most of the entire game. However I also have a "gut" feeling against him as Vas does. The only post he really, in my eyes, contributed in was the one explaining his Shotty vote way back I believe. Mostly his posts just seem a way to avoid a prod. Such as: e-e

e_e is my signature man, I use it when people say something so bad that it's facepalm worthy, or when people don't read. I didn't use it to avoid a prod. Also you aren't reading me enough then if you say that ONE post is the only one I contributed. THE ONLY ONE? Really? That's hyperbole to the extreme, if you wanted to slightly exaggerate and be a dick you could have said 2 posts <_<

I know I switched to both sides of the argument there but I can see both sides. It wouldn't make sense if Vas was trying to bandwagon because Thelonging hasn't received any pressure. So it is most probably his honest gut feel. Which I sort of felt as well when he put Shotty at L-1.

I've been voicing my suspicion of shotty for a while now, even from the time where it ended being a policy lynch and ended up as him being scummy. I haven't received pressure because people either think I am town or think I am scummy but want to sit back and wait for people to point it out, which IS scummy for people to do in my eyes)

I have a theory about EggyLuv but I don't think I'll voice my opinion yet. I believe that if I do at this stage in the game it will be very Anti-Town so I think I'll wait a while and see how the game takes form.

Unless it's groundbreaking, controversial, or not relevant to the game now, I don't see why you should hold back.

I also think that you guys may be reading to much into Avish. But I'm not really sure, all I can really see you are debating are a few word choices. (which I guess is sometimes great for scum hunting but still) Maybe more will come to light for me to change my view. At the moment I'm unconvinced.

On the contrary, I'm finding Avish very town.

[TheLonging]

@TheLonging

You said you would vote me if you weren't voting Shotty. Am I correct in assuming that you find what I did scummy? Do you think shotty is likely to be scum?

Yes, and yes.

[AurorusVox]

I go V/LA and when I come back Shotty is no longer the leading wagon? =_="

As I made clear earlier, I support a Shotty lynch, and frankly only a Shotty lynch at this point, because to vote elsewhere could give scum that easier chance of hitting any existing PRs. He hasn't made any effort to play in a town-like manner, so I'm finding it difficult to distinguish between Shotty-VI-Antitown behaviour and Shotty-scum behaviour, but I can't see him changing my mind on wanting to lynch him.

---

The counter-wagon on Avish feels a bit off. I have a niggling feeling about two of the three votes on there at the moment (VV's and LC's - Leech's feels like an honest vote). That said, I'm see-sawing on Avish being paranoid townie or paranoid scum. She was paranoid enough to pre-emptively defend herself, but she wasn't paranoid when I said I sympathised with her (i.e. she didn't ask for a link to the appropriate game). Similarly, she is paranoid enough to ask how many newbie games we'd played, but not paranoid enough to ask for links to these games. I think she's an interesting counter, but I'm unsettled by it atm.

As for the votes on there, Leech, I'm surprised you'd jump ship on a Shotty wagon. Were you suggesting earlier that you were never really fully committed to a Shotty lynch from the outset (#162)? You didn't really try to dissuade people from hammering. Unless you were hoping that the hypothetical-unsuspecting-newb-scum would hammer and then you'd gain information from it? And now that hasn't happened, you're willing to forgo the PL? This (and your #162) assumes that you're pretty certain Shotty is town. Would you go as far as to say that? What do you make of the lynch-all-claimed-VTs argument?

Vas, you say you think LC's post in which he voted for Avish (his #163) was "terribad" -- but his vote

is

on Avish, who is your top suspect. Do you think this is a stretched attempt at finding reasons to bus a partner? Why would LC vote for Avish when there was a convenient wagon on Shotty? What do you make of LC's pressure argument? I have my own concerns with it but I'd like to hear yours first.*

*LC, I'll come around to you when VV has answered.

---

Kingcheese, I believe you've made it clear that you support a Shotty lynch. Now that he's not at L-1, where's your intent to vote gone?

[AurorusVox]

Vel: I might be stretched for time over the next couple of days. I may get on to read the thread but not be able to properly post until Friday. I'll try my best to get something in before then, but I just wanted to lay another minor V/LA notice down...

[Avish]

Well, Vox, I'm just too damn lazy to read through a bunch of games I'm not involved in. King was mighty vigilant in preparing for this game, he read through a bunch of games before we started. I didn't do that. Feel free to think I'm a lousy player because of that, but it doesn't make me mafia.

Since everybody's so worried about contradictions, here's one for you to chew on: Those with arguments against me seem to be saying that I'm really stupid in one breath and then really clever in the next. I can't be both. If I'm falling into newbie scumtells by being all opportunistic and paranoid, then how exactly am I managing to sound so genuine? I am really enjoying this game. So many chuckles to be had.

For that matter, I'm not sure how I got branded so paranoid anyway. Just because I mentioned the possibility of my getting lynched? I mean, I am one of the two leading candidates, after all. I have been since page 2. At this point I

am

feeling a little jumpy. Mainly because of the Shotty situation. If I get the axe, than he can't unless people are actually convinced that he's mafia. Otherwise, we could be in real trouble. Well,

surely

you guys would realize that once you saw I was actually town, surely.

[AurorusVox]

-It's not a matter of being lousy/lazy. Asking for the links would have enabled you to quickly see what our alignments were, whether we won or not, seen if/when/how we died, and read any post-game comments about our playstyle. If you were seriously interested in how we function in newbie games, you could have followed that interest further.

-Intelligence doesn't stop you making newbie mistakes; you only really stop making them once you've learnt how to play on this particular site. Newbie =/= nooby.

-You also pretty much admitted to being paranoid:

Paranoid townie.

[drmyshottyizsik]

Sorry

Vel- AV is AurorusVox

vote AV

[TheLonging]

e_e

[AurorusVox]

Shotty, why on earth don't you just put my whole name? You've had to type it out there once already anyway =_="

On the subject: I wonder if there'll be any reasons to go with that vote, or whether it is just an RV?

[drmyshottyizsik]

an RV, everyone needs to be pressured some on d-1

[Kingcheese]

I'm beginning to get suspicious of Vas for his sudden vote on Thelonging. As Thelonging said he hasen't mentioned him much for most of the entire game. However I also have a "gut" feeling against him as Vas does. The only post he really, in my eyes, contributed in was the one explaining his Shotty vote way back I believe. Mostly his posts just seem a way to avoid a prod. Such as: e-e

e_e is my signature man, I use it when people say something so bad that it's facepalm worthy, or when people don't read. I didn't use it to avoid a prod. Also you aren't reading me enough then if you say that ONE post is the only one I contributed. THE ONLY ONE? Really? That's hyperbole to the extreme, if you wanted to slightly exaggerate and be a dick you could have said 2 posts <_<

I know I switched to both sides of the argument there but I can see both sides. It wouldn't make sense if Vas was trying to bandwagon because Thelonging hasn't received any pressure. So it is most probably his honest gut feel. Which I sort of felt as well when he put Shotty at L-1.

I've been voicing my suspicion of shotty for a while now, even from the time where it ended being a policy lynch and ended up as him being scummy. I haven't received pressure because people either think I am town or think I am scummy but want to sit back and wait for people to point it out, which IS scummy for people to do in my eyes)

I have a theory about EggyLuv but I don't think I'll voice my opinion yet. I believe that if I do at this stage in the game it will be very Anti-Town so I think I'll wait a while and see how the game takes form.

Unless it's groundbreaking, controversial, or not relevant to the game now, I don't see why you should hold back.

I also think that you guys may be reading to much into Avish. But I'm not really sure, all I can really see you are debating are a few word choices. (which I guess is sometimes great for scum hunting but still) Maybe more will come to light for me to change my view. At the moment I'm unconvinced.

On the contrary, I'm finding Avish very town.

I do believe I should of said contributed to scum hunting. Let's go back and look shall we:

Post # 106
Avish is now the most pro-town player in this entire game. I mean, after I read that post, I reread the thread. In fact, everything he's saying actually makes very good sense. This also leads me to believe that VV and shotty could be scum. However, shotty should be lynched first. At best he's scum, at worst he's a detriment to town, and he already CLAIMED townie. I'd rather not have someone who will shorthand us in the game, even if he is being better in this game than most games. It's not good at all.

Post # 171
LordChronos' vote seems like an opportunity to try and push a wagon on Avish, with flimsy reasoning. It really is opportunistic, and if I wasn't voting for shotty I'd vote for LordChronos.

Post # 25
Hello people, I am your other SE, and I will help you however possible.

my vote is also not random. I do have experience playing with this guy, and I must say, he won't change. He doesn't want to be replaced out so that leaves a policy lynch, kill, or force-replace. I believe that by helping to policy wagon him, we can get some info, and hopefully lynch shotty.

Yes LC your correct I was referring to his sudden comment not his vote. Typo.

And to Vox I'm not quite sure. To me it makes sense to vote for Shotty, but I feel my vote wouldn't mean much atm. I disagree with the Avish wagon at this point so I won't be voting there. So for the moment I won't vote but that choice will change shortly.

[Leech]

It happens to be extremely relevant to my understanding of gameplay on this forum in general. Isn't that the point of newbie games? To learn stuff? And I have learned tons of stuff.

The point is, you learned absolutely nothing from that fluff question. You didn't ask for links to games. By reading those games you would, actually, learn something about those players. Just asking how many games others have played adds nothing to the game, and nothing to your knowledge about the players playing it. I'm glad you've learned a lot of stuff in this game, but you learned nothing from THAT question. And before people start thinking that I'm stretching things... Scum have asked this question before. The reason it's a scummy question is because it is an attempt to look like you are scumhunting, while not. It's a question that looks like it can help, while the answer will provide no information that will help you determine someone's alignment. When these questions are asked, without a request for links to games, it's a scum tell.

I'm just wacky. One way or another the truth will out.

What does that even mean?

Would you now. I wonder. You were not the first to vote for shotty, but you were the first to make it a PL. All that "try and build a wagon and see where it went" bit smacks strongly of retcon. Even if Shotty doesn't get lynched his credibility has been shot. Just as planned? For now you've jumped on Vas's argument against me and added a few things that, frankly, seem a bit frivolous.

I was the first to make it a PL on Shotty. Shotty should be PL'd, I've never said otherwise. However I said at the start of this game that my vote would remain on that PL until I feel someone else is scum. I made that clear at the beginning of this game. However, that does not mean that I didn't have other motivations for suggesting it in the first place. PL discussions are always heated, and they always draw a line in the sand, which actually helps the scumhunting in the game progress faster than it would normally. I'm fully aware that newbscum will opportunistically take advantage of a PL because they are blood thirsty. While experienced scum would keep VI's around, newb scum won't. I simply did not mention that before, as it would defeat the purpose of what I was doing.

Now, how the hell are you going to say that what I've added seems frivolous when it has caught scum in games before? If it is a proven method of finding scum, it's not in the least bit frivolous.

Your irritation at me asking a seemingly random question in this, a newbie game, seems overblown. So what if a newbie is asking a random question in a newbie game?

I'm sorry playing the newbie card isn't going to work when what you are doing is completely scummy. You're downplaying it as a "newbie move" when it's a proven "scum move". Sorry you don't get out that easily.

Leech is right about one thing, however, 'tis better to lynch mafia than VI.
Ergo:
Unvote, Vote: Leech

So, wait, why am I scum now? Tell me how this isn't just an OMGUS please.

Yeahh, Avish is scum alright. Pity, I kind of liked her. She's doing a good job sounding genuine but actions speak louder than words, and there be common newbie scumtells in her play. (Overdefensiveness, survival-ism etc.)

Vas, you should know by now that over-defensiveness is not a scum tell. Town are just as, if not more likely, to be "overly defensive" than scum. Most newbies do not grasp the notion that their survival isn't crucial to a win. The "scumtells" you are describing don't exist.

Keep in mind that I come from somewhere where mafia is played in a very different way. THAT is actually why I asked my oh-so distracting question. I was trying to figure out how used you guys are to actually playing with newbies.

Cool story bro-ette. Sorry, but I'm not going to ignore all the things that have nailed me scum in other games, just because you play differently on another site. Also, the question you asked wouldn't even accomplish what you're claiming to have been seeking. Without asking for LINKS TO GAMES, you would not know how players react to newbies. Also, that question was designed to discredit cases by the players that answer it as well. It was a questioned designed to discredit people in this game under the guise of trying to look helpful while adding nothing to this game. That is incredibly scummy.

As I made clear earlier, I support a Shotty lynch, and frankly only a Shotty lynch at this point, because to vote elsewhere could give scum that easier chance of hitting any existing PRs. He hasn't made any effort to play in a town-like manner, so I'm finding it difficult to distinguish between Shotty-VI-Antitown behaviour and Shotty-scum behaviour, but I can't see him changing my mind on wanting to lynch him.

I want to PL Shotty, but I'd rather lynch scum. Also the "easier chance of hitting PR" arguement is flawed due to the fact that we may not even have any. PR's don't win games nearly as much as the vanilla townies do anyway. While PR's shouldn't out themselves, obviously, I consider relying on them to be a crutch. We need to take advantage of every lynch, and if there's a likely scum lynch, that obviously takes priority over a PL. In fact, if/when Avish flips scum, just look at the math:

Day 1: 2 scum 7 townies - If we lynch scum
Day 2: 1 Scum 6 townies - The ratio ot scum:town is significantly higher in our favor If we PL Shotty here, even if he flips town it's not too bad
Day 3 1 scum 4 townies - We still have significant numbers on the scum and could actually mislynch here, again
Day 4: 1 scum 2 townies - This is LyLo

The reason this is a better scenario is because doing this would give us 4 day phases. PL'ing in this phase would not, unless Shotty flips scum. Of course, there's no indication that Shotty actually is scum. Earlier, that wasn't really important to me because we didn't have player that was a shoe-in for scum. Now, the situation's changed. Let's look at the alternative:

If we PL Shotty in this phase and he flips town:
Day 2: 2 Scum 5 Townies - Far less than optimal for us if we mislynch
Day 3: 2 scum 3 Townies - This is LyLo

Clearly taking a shot at Avish being scum is more beneficial.

The counter-wagon on Avish feels a bit off. I have a niggling feeling about two of the three votes on there at the moment (VV's and LC's - Leech's feels like an honest vote). That said, I'm see-sawing on Avish being paranoid townie or paranoid scum. She was paranoid enough to pre-emptively defend herself, but she wasn't paranoid when I said I sympathised with her (i.e. she didn't ask for a link to the appropriate game). Similarly, she is paranoid enough to ask how many newbie games we'd played, but not paranoid enough to ask for links to these games. I think she's an interesting counter, but I'm unsettled by it atm.

I don't see why that feels off, at all. She didn't request links to the games, because she wasn't actually looking for information. She was playing a "safe" scum play by attempting to look like she's scumhunting, while not. The information she was requesting would have absolutely no bearing on the game, and wouldn't help her narrow down any player's alignment. Scum do this, and I've lynched scum in games because of it.

As for the votes on there, Leech, I'm surprised you'd jump ship on a Shotty wagon. Were you suggesting earlier that you were never really fully committed to a Shotty lynch from the outset (#162)? You didn't really try to dissuade people from hammering. Unless you were hoping that the hypothetical-unsuspecting-newb-scum would hammer and then you'd gain information from it? And now that hasn't happened, you're willing to forgo the PL? This (and your #162) assumes that you're pretty certain Shotty is town. Would you go as far as to say that? What do you make of the lynch-all-claimed-VTs argument?

Why are you so surprised that I'd "jump ship" when I said at the beginning of the game that I would if I believed someone to be scum? In fact, you were the one that asked me that question in the first place, it's odd how quickly you'd forget that. I'm in no way suggesting that I wasn't commited to a Shotty PL. I was definitely pushing it. However, it's foolish to continue pushing a PL when you have a scum read on someone. lynching scum is far superior to a PL. I wasn't dissuading people from hammering, because at the time he was the best lynch. He simply no longer is. Also, I'm not sure that Shotty is town. I'm also not sure he's scum. I'd rather attempt to lynch scum, than lynch a player that is living up to both his town and scum meta. Avish is most likely scum, so there's absolutely no reason for me to leave my vote on Shotty.

Those with arguments against me seem to be saying that I'm really stupid in one breath and then really clever in the next. I can't be both. If I'm falling into newbie scumtells by being all opportunistic and paranoid, then how exactly am I managing to sound so genuine? I am really enjoying this game. So many chuckles to be had.

You aren't sounding genuine. Your reason for Shotty was not a genuine vote, it was opportunistic. Your fluff question wasn't genuine, it was worthless. You defended yourself before you were even a target, which isn't being overly defensive, it's being pre-emptively defensive. All of your plays scream scum, and we'd have to be deaf to not hear it. If you think a single word you type is coming off as "genuine" then we can add "delusional" to the list of adjectives that describe you in this game.

an RV, everyone needs to be pressured some on d-1

Random votes don't add pressure, when you actually say it's random. We are far beyond the RVS anyway, so why don't you actually play this game?

[Leech]

I disagree with the Avish wagon at this point so I won't be voting there. So for the moment I won't vote but that choice will change shortly.

Why do you disagree, though? Did no one else even notice the OMGUS vote that Avish put on me? Do you realize how scummy that move is, on top of the other things she's done? I'm sorry, but I want everyone in this game not voting Avish, to explain why Shotty, or any other player, is a better lynch.

[AurorusVox]

Clearly taking a shot at Avish being scum is more beneficial.

I for one bow down to our new mathematical ant overlords. Clearly, your proposed scenario trumps my concerns. I'm still worried about the better PR odds but hitting scum

obviously

is better than mislynching town, just to achieve those odds.

I don't see why that feels off, at all.

As I said, your vote feels honest and I'm having similar feelings regarding the "paranoia" and "linkgate" as you, buuut, the votes that feel off are VV's and LC's to a lesser extent. I will re-read Avish but I want to interrogate them more before I make any decisions.

Why are you so surprised that I'd "jump ship" when I said at the beginning of the game that I would if I believed someone to be scum?

In all honesty, I was blinkered by my lynch-all-claimed-VTs idea. I had thought that derailing the Shotty wagon was an optimum scenario for scum, and because I was certain the best scenario was lynching Shotty, I thought you'd have felt the same (hence my surprise, especially considering you initiated the PL). I fully understand your switch now, though. Consider my surprise resolved.

[Avish]

@Leech

Oh, I wasn't actually trying to change your mind. I feel fairly certain that you are determined not to change it, regardless. I looked up that "OMGUS". Cute term. That's not it, but whatever floats your boat. I voted you because I think you seem seedy. I'm not certain, you're just my leading candidate at this time. At this point I really hope you are mafia. You are so aggressive in your attack, so sure you know everything, so down right cocky, in fact, that if you turn out to be town I'm going to be embarrassed for you.

WAIT!

Don't tell me.

Let me guess.

That is a common scumtell.

I don't care. As I keep saying, the truth will out. If you are town get ready to eat crow.

I didn't vote Vas when he voted for me and hammered me repeatedly, but his arguments feel different than yours. I still say I learned something from my fluff question. And saying I'm delusional just wasn't nice. Vas said I was spitting up scumtells, but sounded genuine. That is what I was referring to.


There's more I should probably address, but it's late. I'm tired. I'm tired of hitting the backspace key to correct typos. So the rest will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

EggyLv999 has been prodded.