Mini 1077 Lost: Season Two (Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

/confirm

For those of you who do not read instructions carefully be sure to take specific note of the Push the Button rule.

I don't want any player who traditionally spams the thread forgetting about that rule and blowing themselves up as Town. If they are Scum feel free

[MagnaofIllusion]

This whole discussion reminds me of one of my all-time favorite Lost lines from Hurley -

"Dude, you got a little Arzt on you"

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok an official declaration

–

Don’t both to attempt to argue source flavor to ward off accusations of scummy behavior. Go read Lost Season 1 Mafia. The Mafia was Jack, Claire, and Roussou. And the second you want to argue flavor read it again and then smack yourself.

I see you arguing flavor and I will send the dear departed soul of Jenniwren after you.

C-C-C-C-C-Chainsaw.

Don’t start. Its hardly a chainsaw since these look like normal RVS style shenanigans.

As amused as I am by your early attempt at nailing relational tells I suspect you are simply fishing for reactions. Noted.

Mathematically speaking (and read-wise) it was the wiser person to shoot.
A BP close to endgame is a pain in the neck.

No, the wiser people to shoot were AGar and Dekes. The scum. Who I clearly pointed out. And the fact that a Town Guard had flipped made your shot moronic. Please don’t make me reach through the internet and give you an Atomic Wedgie to get the point across.

I've played several games with him, and he's never been scum. He was a Jester once, but I'd rather not bring that one up. Only makes sense that he'd have to be scum this time.

This logic is sort of compelling. I’ve played games with you and aside from you being a 3rd Party Reverse Survivor who didn’t have the sense to PROTECT HIS MASON BUDDY WHOSE LIFE YOU DEPENDED ON I’ve never seen you be scum. Only makes sense that you are scum this time.

VOTE: Gandalf

So your arguement for me being scum... is I am now playing AGAINST my scum meta? If I read that correctly

Don’t the circumstances of Season 1 dictate that you might consider changing your modus operandi? Since you were killed as an uncounter-claimed Doc and were scum and all.

I’d love to see more posting from those players not in Lost Season 1. Also for those new to the series please indicate your level of familiarity with the Series.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE JASON that + loluscumslip means jason scum.

If this isn’t some RVS style vote I’d really like further explanation about why the quote is scummy in any way and why the scum-slip (if you are referencing the same one as Chesskid) is an actual slip.

MagnaofIllusion is random voting on page 6? You can't find a better target for your vote than that?

Also, MoI's post is peculiar. Only because I just saw him as 3rd party, where he played rather well. Until he got himself all killed and such. Only actual game related content I find is discussing Jason's MO. Tries to extend RVS, as does Enigma (I feel as if we've left it and made it to an awkward shit-slinging stage at least).

I’m addressing both of you because you are making the same argument, essentially.

As Enigma has mentioned the thread has not yet been open 24 hours. Not all players at the point of my post had even made a content post in the game. Claiming the Serious Business ™ is already ongoing seems premature.

Cal

- your Page 6 assertion isn’t really meaningful given that Chess and Jason pretty much spammed 4 pages.

AGar

– Your further comment that ‘serious’ accusations have been made is fairly disingenuous. Chesskid’s accusations are clearly reaction fishing. To classify them as otherwise is foolhardy.

@EVERYONE

– What do you think of Dekes’ claim and use of a 1-Shot Census immediately Day 1?

The name-claim itself is null, of course, but I don’t see a Census as I likely Mafia power. The last time I saw it used was in ‘Of Gods and Men’ where the user was Town. Additionally outing the set-up doesn’t seem to serve the Mafia well. Perhaps it is a 3rd Party power. In either case Scum of any sort don’t serve their own interests well by making themselves the center of discussion so early Day 1.

I’ll be putting Dekes in my Town pool for the moment until information arises that makes me question his truthfulness.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I rarely random vote, and I believe a long 'rvs' is harmful. 6 pages in is enough to have formed reads, definitely. I was actually referring to Jason jumping on chesskid's supposed scumslip. I'm not opposed to joking around just as long as there's content there. As for the quote I don't believe jason's honestly trying to evaluate what chesskid said, it looks like he's jumping on poor reasons as a basis to suspect him, trying to lolgotcha him in a contradicition if that makes sense, when there's none. And it's quite apparent there's none if you read the 2 things.

Your belief in a long or a short RVS is noted. I don’t particularly think it matters. RVS is a part of the game, not a separate period we have to muscle out of to get to ‘actual’ play. Scum can and do slip in RVS.

I think your assessment of Jason / Chesskid is overblown. I think Chess looks worse for his repeated change of opinion on Dram and Jason as scum in relation to each other. He contradicts himself and then tries to explain away his posts. That said I don’t expect Chesskid to be the paragon or reasoned opinion. He tends to fly by the seat of his pants. I don’t necessarily see anything inherently scummy in the long Jason versus Chess versus Dram exchange.

MOI: You covered most things although theories ignore the posibillity he's mafia faking it 'although 'outing the set-up could mean that). It's certainly the most-likely him scum scenario at any rate, considering 2 man mafia groups are infrequent without at least some other anti town faction. it's certainly possible he's part of a 2 person scumteam and is gambiting, however he doesn't type me as that sort of player from reading Lost s1 and atm I tend to agree he's probably town.

I’m not seeing the net benefit for Dekes, as either Scum or 3rd Party (predicated on the census, mind you) to make themselves a target for scrutiny this early Day 1. In the absence of scum-motivation for his actions I come to the conclusion that his is likely Town.

In the end as evidence supporting or refuting his stated set-up surfaces the read on Dekes can be re-assessed.

CS is probably town. Now Agar looks weird but I think he is town for now.
DEKES is scum. See who he claimed day. He did that in S1 as scum.

Ummm what? The scum who fake-claimed Day 1 was you fake-claiming Boone as a Daycop. Dekes claimed Claire (who was his actual role) Day 1 in response to your gambit.

I assume CS means Chesskid.

[MagnaofIllusion]

When I said that one of the people in the discussion was scum, I was just observing a fact, not saying that there was something about the discussion that one of the participants had to be scum.

Why did you think that? You find that the generic context of the conversation, not anything related to the contents, indicated there must be scum? And why reference it as a fact?

uh I never changed my opinion. You want to try to be the next jason, throwing quotes at me and not understanding the english language? COME AT ME BRO. COME AT ME

DERP. Seriously why are you so obstinate. ?

Dramonic is only scum if you flip scum, and even then it's a minor suspicion, that needs to be built upon.

If one of you is scum, and one of you is town, it would almost have to be Jason town, dram scum.

Dram pointed out these in 105. Your explanation at 109 –

first quote is like, I will be seriously looking at dram if jason flips scum.
Second quote is like jason could flip town and you could still be scum, just I wouldn't actually be starting from a nice handy FoS of you.

is an attempt to explain what you meant in the above quotes. A poor attempt. The quotes shown in Dram’s post are clear and unambiguous. I honestly think you are the one who needs to get a handle on their grasp of the English language.

Why such an abrasive reaction when I have said that despite your play I don’t find you scummy?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vren's quote of Enigma reminds me to ask a question -

@Enigma

- Are you an alt of NoPointinActingUp?

[MagnaofIllusion]

However, in saying I try to play the same way in each game people seem to disagree and can spot me as scum a mile off usually. Would I try to change it? If I knew how to then yes probably. I guess it is so much easier to see Meta and scumtells in others than it is in yourself.

I understand your response here in regards to personal meta. That said the manner in which I clearly laid out my perception of your Scum meta in Lost S1 should have given you a fairly clear guideline of behaviors to avoid.

@MoI: The fact is, two people launched serious accusations at each other, for purposes other than maintaining RVS shenanigans. Are you honestly telling me nothing can be gained from analyzing those?

No I’ve never said that ‘nothing’ can be gained from analyzing the early accusations. I do believe, however, that any meaningful data to be gained from said analysis is going to come somewhat down the line today after we have a better handle on interactions.

Dear Town,

meta is crap.

That is all,
AGar.

Your opinion is noted, however Jason’s downfall in Season 1 begs to differ with you.
Also, I’m curious to see your response to Vren at 205.

Warning: Post 216 will be on Page 9

Given statements you have made in the past that indicates you find players who are ‘too helpful’ suspicious why are you being ‘so helpful’ here?
Should we find you suspicious?

--Magna: It doesn't seem that anyone was really thinking one way or the other about Dekes' claim after the initial response to it; I'm kind of curious about your initial question on the matter since there was a lot of discussion about other things between his claim and your question, and none of it was really on Dekes at all.

What are you curious about? I can’t really respond to vague curiousity.

why would you assume that?!

Because you wrote something that specifically I usually

only

see from NoPoint. It’s not very important but I wanted to satisfy my curiosity.

PS: Why so serious?!??

The first time I saw you say this I let it go. But repeatedly asking why a player is being serious, RVS or not, is a fluffy distracting technique. RVS does not require anyone to act in a non-serious manner.

VOTE: Enigma–His reaction at 179 is very disproporationate to the stimulus. That, combined with other issues, is more than enough for me to put a serious vote on him.

@MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual family weekend responsabilities.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI. Be afraid. Be very afraid. No, not really. I view making lists as a scumtell, but warning people away from being blown up is _actually_ useful, since if someone gets blown up, we're at a huge disadvantage (I mean scum aren't going to get blown up. They just aren't)

Clearly making sure people aren’t ‘hatched’ is important. That said why do you assume scum aren’t going to get blown up? Do you think Reck will protect them? Do you think Town has less reason to pay attention to the thread than scum?

Also I've decided I'm going to be announcing something before the end of this day. This is fucking important, so don't hammer anyone untill I've had a chance to say what I want.

What could you possibly have to say that could benefit from waiting til the end of Day. If it is important you shouldn’t be waiting.

Vezok is pretty easy to read. I would say with near 100% certainty that he is town.

Really? I find his VI play increadibly hard to read. The only time I’ve readily been able to easily figure his alignment is in Season 1 when he pulled a stupid, obvious gambit.

I'm a lot more suspicious of Enigma now, for reasons that have to do with my role. However, I think that his role(whatever it is, I have no idea) might be able to explain the problem, so I'm not going to vote him just yet. I'll have an eye on him though.

If this is straying into the use of role to mean Character (and thus flavor) you are earning my vote immediately.

I'm just wondering why the issue needed to be highlighted and questioned if you were going to conclude he was town anyway, as most people seem to have done. It stood out to me because of the wording; like, you asked, but you answered before anyone else did, so it wasn't like you were gauging reactions, but instead like you were maybe asking so as to have something to ask.

The issue needed to be highlighted because it is worth discussing. A PR based claim so early Day 1 isn’t usually a good idea. And if it leads to a Town read on said claimer (Dekes in this case) I want everyone’s opinion out in the open early on that. Leaving it unspoken just leaves room for someone to later say they didn’t find it a Town move.

Outside of Newbie games there is ZERO reason (outside of PR based gambits which should not be being run Day 1 anyway) to ask a question of everyone that you aren’t willing to answer first. We don’t have ICs in Theme games.

This reminds me … I have to go back and see who didn’t post their reactions so far.

@ jasonT, chesskid3, gandalf5166

– Did you purposely not respond to my Census / Dekes queston or did I miss it in my review?

Why so serious MoI?

Clearly Mafia is serious business. Don’t you know that already? Sigh …

Gandalf, are you glad vezo came back after disappearing from the site?

What scum-hunting purpose does this serve?

I posted that purely fishing for a reaction, as you can see for many of my posts in the game thus far.

Given your ISO is fairly content light and filled to the brim with pointless sarcasm what reaction were you expecting?

I'm uneasy about believing him when he has contributed nothing else which allows us to judge if he is scum or town. Shouldn't all townies be?

You are a little worked up worrying about information we aren’t really going to use until several days down the line. The post screams “I want Town cred and I want everyone to see how Town I am by questioning this”

Happy where my vote is right now.

Callandor, you seem overly defensive. When you were called on your fleff, you immediatly tried to deflect it to others and call THEM out. That is not townie

I looked back. You didn’t comment when Enigma basically did the same thing. Why not?

@ Vezo 212-215

– What scum-hunting purpose do you see in “blowing up the Mod”? And you do know he could just edit a vote count into 215 if he wanted, right?

Where did I promised content????
I never promise content.

Why not? Do you intend to once again be a VI player this game?

I quit th site because of an ongoing game. People started making posts about how bad I play didn't vote me and didn't do anything. I quit the site because I didn't want anything like that to happen again. Then I came back and decided to never join a game with those people again.

So people commenting on your bad play inspired you to not improve your play but not play with meanies?

I was merely noting with MoI that he's a conniving bastard who looks really town when he isn't.

Precursor to ‘Too Townie’ fallacy noted.

In all seriousness what do you want people to draw from this? If I look Town I should be suspected? If I don’t look Town I probably am? I’d really like to see what your statement meant in terms of gameplay here in Season 2.

[MagnaofIllusion]

YOU MAY ONLY BOLD YOUR TEXT. CHANGING SIZE OR COLOR WILL RESULT IN A MODKILL.
I AM NOT FUCKING AROUND. KTHX.

@RECK

– I’d like to confirm before I go to make a VC Analysis at some point that using Red and Blue color would result in a Modkill based on the above statement. Because I don’t want to blow myself up in a non-Hatch manner for doing what I consider standard operating procedure (if I survive long enough, that is).

@MOI - I must have missed your census question, can you repeat it and I will try to answer the best I can.

Can you quote your question about Dekes, I missed it.

I must have missed it.

Here is my original question for those of you not reading for content –

@EVERYONE – What do you think of Dekes’ claim and use of a 1-Shot Census immediately Day 1?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scum aren't going to be stupid and get blown up.

Again – why do you think Town players are more likely to not pay attention to the thread and get blown up?

Also, How can CK be so sure of a vig?

Name the last Mini Theme game you played that didn’t have a Vig of some sort. And filter out any games that have very specialized set-ups. Even in a Mini game Vigs are pretty standard balancing material.

This absolutely looks like soft fishing, as others have mentioned.

I did mean my character. Not sure why it's vote-worthy though.

Do you think you are special and beautiful snowflake and everyone needs to repeat themselves for you? Because this constant not-paying-attention is getting old.

Claiming you character name in an attempt to clear yourself as Town in this game is scumtastic. Once again Lost Season 1 had scum of Jack and Claire.

Regarding Gandalf’s claim

– I really, REALLY hate unpressured claims out of no-where. Which is just what this is. That said -

Gandalf is claiming some sort of twist on a PGO. He’s indicating that by having a power used on him he can possibly change alignments to scum. It appears only one specific role has the ability to ‘convert’ him based on 315.

We pretty much have to treat this claim as a Miller claim. We lynch Gandalf if his day-play looks like scum and the day before expected LYLO we give serious thought to whether he needs to be policy lynched for the fake-claim as scum possibilities.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Dram

– AGar’s request has merit. Stop lurking.

@Vren

– Why are you not voting so far?

Because scum getting blown up would be hated by their buddies 4eva lololol

And stupid Town getting themselves blown up wouldn’t earn them the ire of all the Town player? All your statements along these lines are fluff you hope will earn you Town cred.

I was in 1007 with no vig.

Yes. How many Mini Games have you been in? I’m guessing the Have Vig pool is much larger than the No Vig pool. Thus until we see evidence otherwise it is a reasonable assumption that Town may have some sort of killing role.

And how could you forget Nik’s Reboot Mafia which didn’t have a Town Vig when you referenced it earlier for my 3rd Party Play?

Gandalf should be vigged.

No, if you think he is lying scum you lynch him. Vigging him is just a stupid play as the downside of potentially losing our Vig vastly outweighs the upside of catching stupid scum who fake-claimed.

You tend to look very pro-town in games I've played with you. And I made the mistake once of pegging you as town, when you were in fact 3rd party. It was a reminder to both myself and the rest of the game that you can't just turn a blind eye once someone does one thing that seems incredibly townie, because that's a golden opportunity for scum.

Noted. I also find it fascinating that you explicitly go out of the way to say I fooled you as a 3rd Party when that 3rd Party role was a Double Lyncher / Survivor role who had two scum as his targets. Yeah, I was 3rd Party in name but I was effectively Town’s best weapon (per Nik) in that game.

Basically I think day 1's the most important day and things such as early miller claims (not what I am) tend to take the direction of scum-hunting for a while and focus on 'is he or isn't he'

Aside from the fact that Day 1 is never the most important day (that’s always the Day the game is won or lost) Miller claims on site don’t generally derail discussion. Standard operating procedure is to note them, look at said player outside of the Miller context and play as appropriate. Just like Gandalf’s claim. If he looks like scum from his Day play and voting we lynch him as opposed to continue to discuss vigging versus not vigging.

And keeping Scum on their toes is fine except by making your “Oh pay attention to me” statement you’ve taken the snap out of that Slimjim already.

My pool of people I would be satisfied seeing hang today as of now–

Enigma – made this clear already
Jason – Lots of one liners that revolve around game mechanics and soft fishing as opposed to scum-hunting. Lots of defense and why me posting.
Vezo – look at his ISO and get back to me

[MagnaofIllusion]

So 2/9 of my personal experiences have had a vig, so my no-vig pool is actually higher.

I would say that the CPR Doc qualifies as a Vig but 3/9 is much lower than expected based on my memory. Your results made me go back and check my own personal records also.

With – 937 (Full), 938 (Odd Night and JOAT), 948 (3 Weak Vigs), 951 (1 Shot), 955 (1 or 2 Shot I think), 969 (CPR Doc), 974 (Vig that died immediately on coming into game), 989 (Full), 1000 (Limited Shot), 1003 (Full), 1039 (2 Weak Vigs), 1040 (Vig mechanic),

Without – 962 (Serial Killer), invitational 8 (No Non-Mafia killer), 1032 (No Non-Mafia killer), 1052 (No Non-Mafia killer)

I have excluded Max’s Perpetual MYLO Mafia as it was a specifically designed Vanilla set-up.

So I have 12 Vigs, and 4 non-Vig games, making it 75% of the time from my experience.

Given the disparity of our experiences I think a ‘Hoopla’ might be insightful. Not useful for scum-hunting, but interesting.

Honestly, I don't believe the claim, but I don't think he's scum, per se. I think he's an idiot.

Vigging him is a stupid idea then. In a Mini game we don’t have the luxury of vigging idiots that we do in a Large game. We need to be vigging scum.

Your lynch pool is disagreeable, although I'll do them the kind graces of a re-read I suppose.

Then give me something more compelling than your sandbox fight with Call based on your being purposefully abrasive.

Vote toon fighter scummiest active lurker in the game. Let's kill him w/ fire.

Why is he scummier than Dram who is also way lurking?

Why should we be going after active lurkers as opposed to directly scummy players like Enigma, Jason or Vezok?

Why is everyone going apeshit with role related information? It's unnecessary at such an early stage of D1.

Certain role-based information absolutely needs to be made early Day 1. Miller claims and Dekes Census information being two examples. I’m not thrilled with Gandalf’s claim but I’ve already shown how we need to deal with it.

It’s not like this information prevents you from scum-hunting.

Town WIFOMy posts! Scum tactic right here!
PS: Ohh sorry I forgot we were playing a GAME. I thought we were playing real life for a while there. Chill out mate.

Yeah, I understand you don’t know my propensity to get NKed Night 1.

Also, ITT we learn that Enigma lacks the ability to recognize subtle sarcasm on the Interwebz.

Gandalf's post about Dekes being offlimits based on flips is just retarded logic. If we get that many flips town have already won the game anyways. People shouldn't naive enough to blindly trust said information. It's unhealthy.

Way to attempt to present things disproportionately to their actual nature. Gandalf’s presentation of the statement aside there is no reason to go charging after Dekes at this juncture. If he plays scummy enough in the future to warrant consideration we will. No-one is saying BLINDLY trust said information.

You still haven’t given a compelling scum motivation for Dekes Census claim that would warrant your statement here.

By your logic then Gandalf should do a full claim right now? Callandor should spit out whatever it is he wants to say?
How about we just do a mass claim right now while we are at it? And then we can tell which PR's are telling the truth when scum kill them and we see a flip!
Good fucking idea sir!

Way to once again exaggerate what was said. Scumtastic. No-one has suggested full claims from Gandalf or a mass-claim. You are using statements not made as evidence and that’s at best a bad argument.

then if you are town then WHY the hell is CK suggesting a town member gets blown up FFS

Because perhaps Chess doesn’t buy that Gandalf’s role isn’t Third Party?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dear God people stop the pre-emptive claiming!

What part about not claiming until absolutely necessary don't you get? You are only making it easier for the scum to PR hunt for things like Cops and Doctors.

Grumble ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm the scummiest lurker so far? What about dramonic? What has he done so far? A couple of votes, references to a previous game, 10 posts with very little content, and only one post for the last 4 days. I'm not saying I'm much better, but if you are going to stone a lurker, I don't think I'm the best choice. vote: Dramonic I want more posts from you.

I have tried to participate. I have made a (small) case on gandalf. I have pointed out Dramonic. I have posted and will continue to do so. @ Dekes: I said that hatch think just for flavour, don't make such a fuss over it.

The inherent hypocricy / self-preservation in this post pings my scumdar.

Why aren’t you the best choice for stoneing a lurker? You admit your contributions are at best negligibly better than Drams. Why shouldn’t we be looking at actively scummy players instead of lurkers?

Pointing out Dramonic hardly counts as contributions when AGar and I both recently said he needs to contribute more.

Because I was sick to fuck of CK constant hammering on I was scum with nothing to back it up.... scary thing is people were listening to him

See this I don’t buy. I don’t think anyone has said they bought CK’s rhetoric. You reaction to it, however, is what put you on my radar.

Great, and now we know you're part of a masonry/neighborhood........ If you're trying to breadcrumb, just stop. In fact, make as little reference to your ability as possible. Maybe scum will just forget.........

Are you not reading for content? Jason didn’t claim to be a mason, neighbour, or any sort of Mason/Neighborizor. He’s claimed what is a modified Innocent Child. He gets to pick one player at night who the Mod will PM saying that Jason is confirmed Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, in a 9:2:1 setup, we do have the luxury of vigging stupid players. If this was 9:3 or 9:3:1, I'd agree. But I disagree at the moment.

Assuming a mislynch every day and no blocks, and that the 3rd party is a non-killing faction (possible due to Reck's past setup with Lost), vigging a player like Gandalf, who is an idiot and further proving this with every post, we would be in a 3:2:1 on D3, similar to a lylo on D3, only with the 3rd party involved. Obviously if the 3rd party is a killing faction, we have a whole different ballgame on our hands.

Your second paragraph explains why, quite convincingly, your opinion in the first statement is bad. You are assuming to know that we don’t have a 3rd Party killing role.

I am vehemently against policy lynches, especially on D1. They play into the hands of scum, so unless you're suggesting we have a good cop/investigative PR, which I'm not putting my money on, there's nothing to be gained for it.

Who in the hell is talking about a Policy lynch? If Gandalf is playing scummy you lynch him. That’s not policy that’s how Mafia is played.

The rest of that paragraph where you ramble on about past gambits and your personal experience is noted. I disagree with shooting Gandalf and would rather lynch him if he is scum.

ALSO, anyone notice Gandalf's "Why the fuck did he claim?" post?

Yes. What about it? Do you see it as scummy? If so is my statement about the claim scummy?

It's funny, I said I found enigma and jason pro town (even went in to some detail), so I'm not sure why you asked me that question. Vezok's absolutely useless, which is what I expect, but I don't find him scummy, I can't knowing how he plays.

Answer the question. I asked you why we should be going after scummy lurkers as opposed to scummy active players. You didn’t say that Toon was the scummiest player. You said he was the scummiest lurker.

That’s my list of players I found actively scummy when I made the post

I think we should let jason live one day and kill him tomorrow.

What is this? This makes ZERO sense.

The only reason you actively keep Jason alive if you think he is scummy is to have him prove his ability. It makes no sense to immediately kill him afterward when that ability may be able to be confirmed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I don't find Gandalf scummy. I find him to be dead-weight and of the same caliber as DMSIS, holding the same mental capacity. Which means I expect him to do something absolutely fuckall stupid in the event that he finds the opportunity. And yes, I am assuming a 3rd party non-killing role. If we have a vig, mafia and 3rd party killing role, all it takes is one night and a mislynch D2 to put us into a loss before D3 starts if the cards fall in a certain way. 4 people dying through one day/night cycle in a 12p game is not going to ever be balanced for town. So I say vig him. Because I don't want him around in endgame because I don't feel he's capable. Gandalf's "Why the fuck did you claim?" grabbed my attention because of his early claim. It's a direct contradiction to his actions earlier, where he openly - with 0 pressure - started a claim of his own.

1. If this is your true opinion of Gandalf why the hell aren’t you suggesting Vezok as a Vig target. He is every bit the measure of Gandalf if we are discussing VIs bound to make mind-numbingly bad moves.
2. So now you think there is a Vig? You and I just spent several posts going back and forth discussing the likelihood of one. You seem pretty firmly in favor of the theory that it was less likely than more likely. That you don’t seem to think a Serial Killer might be the 3rd party seems very disconnected. And there will not be a Serial Killer and any sort of Vig in the same set-up. So the whole concept of 4 deaths in a cycle isn’t really valid.
3. Good point on Gandalf’s reaction. The fact that it echoed mine made me think it was a logical thought process.

I don’t seem to be getting much traction on the Enigma lynch. Jason’s claim, painful as it was from a Town perspective, makes him a not optimal lynch today.

@Vezo, Toon and Dram

– You each have 1 post to make a good argument as to why I shouldn’t vote for you, in the form of a solid case on your top scum suspect. Go!

[MagnaofIllusion]

So you're willing to blindly buy into your townread of a player and risk the town getting duped into him picking his scumbuddy as the "confirmer."

Are you thinking about this argument regarding Jason picking a scum-buddy before you make it? If we are indeed in a 9-2-1 set-up Jason, as scum who made a horrible fake-claim with little pressure on him, choosing his scum-partner to fake confirm him would be a horrible move. It would out the scum team immediately if either one was ever shown to be scum. That’s a very high risk for the minimal reward.

That said I agree that giving him 3 Town agreed upon Town reads is probably the best way to go in making an effort to actually confirm his claim.

1. Because I just finished a game as scum with Vezok, and he actually played well. I went in with the judgment of "OMG Vezok can't play," but prior to him being replaced, he played competently, and showed pretty good understanding in our scum QT.

My direct experience with Vezok isn’t so positive. All the games we have shared have been of dubious quality, regardless of his alignment. My direct experience with Gandalf is much more positive than that with Vezok.

MoI is scum.

Every post he makes is just points being addressed at people. I don't think i ever saw him post a scum list or any suspects for that matter.

1. Read the thread. I listed a agreeable lynch list at my ISO 10 that at least 1 other person (AGar) already commented on.
2. You’ve been asked by multiple people to explain in coherent detail why you statement about Jason being the Day 2 lynch isn’t stupid. Why did you not respond?
3. You do know that questioning people is part of the scum-hunting process, right?

Once I see Toon and Dram’s responses I’ll decide whether you are the best place for my vote.

@MOD – As usual I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

@MOD – I think Dram is due a Prod.

@MOD – Any updated on the search for Vren’s replacement?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would like to be in the group of 3 people. I'm pretty sure most players here have me down as town, as well.

Actually my list would be AGar, Dekes and Call personally.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And MoI i really think you are scum this game.
Gut Read on you.

Glad you have explained your read.

Any comment as to why you don’t appear to be reading the thread (in regards to saying I’m not giving suspicions)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also I want your top two scum picks now.

How about this. I’ve already listed three reads with reasonings. When you can provide two solid reads with more significant support than ‘gut’ we can talk.

The problem with that theory though, is what I pointed out - nowhere has Jason said that his confirmation has to be to a town-aligned player. So unless you're saying we get the confirmation and then lynch him anyways, then there's no real risk in his choosing his scumbuddy.

It doesn’t make any sense for Jason, as any sort of scum, to have an ability that confirms he is not Town. That's the equivalent of a penalty power. If he’s scum he’s outright lying about his role or has an ability that allows him to have Reck make a false statement on his behalf. No other option makes any sense.

In the first case he would absolutely have to use his scum-buddy since he can’t bluff towards a Town player. But there would be ZERO reason to fake-claim as he did then. As I’ve said … little potential gain with huge potential downside.

In the second case he would absolutely want anyone other than his partner to receive the message.

I don’t see the first scenario as likely. The second scenario only exists if Reck is willing to be a bastard about the content of a potential message.

In any event I’m fine with proceeding as planned and giving Jason a concensus group of 3 players to target.

I think everyone can agree that it's a bad idea for Jason to list.

For some reason this really made me laugh.

@Enigma

– Once your studying has slowed down I’d love for you to make an appearance and list your three top reads for Jason’s pool.

@Toon

– Still waiting for your response to my and other’s points about your recent ‘case’.

[MagnaofIllusion]

AGar

- Have you given Enigma a look lately? I think he really warrants some close scrutiny at this point, especially with Jason's pre-emptive claim taking him of the table as a viable lynch for today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome Stephoscope

–

You bitches all like living so much that I'm the only one so far who self-nominated.
Interesting.

Are you seriously trying to say that whatever Nightkills occur in the game are going to be driven mainly by the choice of who MIGHT (33% chance) possibly get a message from the Mod / Jason?

I also note the use of the word interesting … which is a classic way to suggest something is scummy when you know you can’t come out and directly say it.

What happened here guys?

Chesskid has a point. Why not self nominate? You know you are town. Only reason for you not to self nominate is for you not to draw attention.

1. Yet you making some sort of comment about self nomination kind of punches a hole in your theory that it would not draw attention to not self-nom.
2. Everyone who is Town knows they are Town. And the Mafia / suggested 3rd Party aren’t going to say ‘Derp, I’m not Town’. So suggesting that self-nominating is any sort of Town barometer is quite stupid.
3. All you and Chesskid have done is cut down the number of players you have to assert you have Town reads on by 1/3. What alignment do you suppose is more likely to want to minimize their stated Town reads so as to make their mislynching easier down the line?

And you'ld be the kind of person who would take such claims as the truth hey? Aren't you the one who was criticizing pre-emptive claiming a few pages down the track? There was zero need for Gandalf to put himself in the position he is right now. And your attempt to try and skew that into a scum tell against me is duly noted.

Other than fluffing up the length of your post what is you point about believing claims? Any Town player should take claims with a grain of salt and weigh the gravity of the player's other contributions. Your constant harping about the claims that have already happened isn't scum hunting, but simply post inflation.

Yes I was the one who criticized pre-emptive claiming. It’s stupid. There was pretty much zero need for Gandalf to do so. You can’t un-ring the bell. I’ve explained the best way to approach his claim. Are you arguing that my approach isn’t valid?

Lastly your ‘I note that you called me scummy’ is fantastic. You have played scummy. But attacking the accuser is classic scum tactics, right?

People are blindly trusting said information, so your point is irrelevant. Hell they are putting him on their pro-town list to get the Jason information. How are we going to see if he is scummy enough when he hasn't posted? Town have no reason to trust the Dekes claim, we can't even judge his play, scum will know whether it's true or not anyways. You suggesting that we ignore him, is a poor effort at trying to divert attention away from your scum buddy.

Oh, I’m trying to direct attention away from Dekes, my buddy lurker? Funny.

For the most part you seem more interesting in undermining the general Town read everyone has on Dekes than actually scum-hunting? Why not bring pressure towards Toon Fighter, who has 9 posts to Dekes 8 and by far less content? Are you trying to direct attention away from your scum-buddy? He is the only person in the game so far who bothered to suggest you were Town.

Why is Dekes scummy other than lurking? His claim has no scum motivation. Why is Toon Fighter not scum since we can’t ‘see how scummy he is’ since he’s not really posting?

This jason voting thing is a complete waste of time and is just distracting town. The only thing it will serve is WIFOM mess for town to filter through when flips/results are given.

Actually it’s a very good tool to gauge who players are willing to label as Town. Down the line that information in conjunction with alignment flips and VC analysis will give plenty of useful information. Nice try to pre-emptively argue away relational tells. Scumtastic.

My vote is currently with Enigma and I’m happy with it there. I’d certainly also strongly support a Toon or vezo wagon at this stage.

@Chess and Gandalf

– If Toon Fighter’s nomination of Enigma suggests that they both are potential scum where are you not voting for either one of them?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're missing the point, whether intentionally or otherwise. The point of this is not for everyone to out 3 townreads. The point of this is to make the PM end up in town hands.

I’m clearly aware of your limited depth analysis of the situation. Since you aren’t willing to venture beyond the obvious I’ll educate you. In the situations below we are assuming the target of Jason’s ‘ability’ survives Night.

Situation – Jason is Town and not lying about his role.

If this is the case it really doesn’t matter who the message goes to. If the recipient is Town then Jason becomes Mod-confirmed Town. Nothing is necessarily known about the target. In either case we don’t really know Jason’s alignment until said Town target flips or is confirmed by an outside source.

If the target is scum then they have a tough decision to make. They either confirm Jason as Town (and remove a potential mislynch from their pool who hasn't looked very Town so far) or set-up a 1 versus 1 with Jason. Even if Dekes is full of crap and we have a 3 person Mafia that’s a tough spot. Either way the Mafia is put at a disadvantage.

Situation – Jason is scum and lying about his role.

No message is forthcoming. Scum is forced to either kill within a set pool of Town players (if all three players chosen are Town) and hope they don’t run into some sort of protection. If they guess wrong said Town player is set in a 1 versus 1 with Jason-scum. Not a good outcome for scum. If they guess correct then we are back to square one with Jason. If a scum partner is in the pool we once again know nothing until Jason flips, in which case we have net two for the price of one.

Situation – Jason is lying about his role as Town, Reck has kicked up the bastardness of the game, or Jason dies / is interfered with.

The first two situations screw Town over. The third places us back at step one.

The result of all the scenarios

– we don’t necessarily get any information on Day 2 that tells us anything concrete. Mostly relational tells dependant on flips down the line.

If the Pro-Town purpose was to solely ‘get the message in Town’s hands’ I would never have bothered. Because the situation is too filled with ‘What Ifs’. I agreed with it because the process of everyone selecting 3 town reads gives additional relational information to be used down the line regardless of whatever the hell is going on with Jason.

Feel free to cling to you simplistic view Chess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first

– Gandalf you had best get to explaining

EVERY LITTLE BIT

of detail on your role right now. Because the end of day crap that happened doesn’t suggest you are a Bulletproof.

So far we have full Cop, and 1 shot Revivor, Dayvig and Census Taker as confirmed Town roles. I am getting the strong suspicion that you are the mysterious 3rd Party that Dekes confirmed Day 1. Especially since we only had 1 kill last night.

I want to know why AGar took the bullet meant for you pronto.

I didn’t get a PM from Jason. Looking at the opinions list I would expect Chesskid to chime in with confirmation whenever he appears.

Why did they killed that person?

It makes zero sense.

Could you explain what the hell you mean here? Do you mean why did AGar take a bullet? Do you mean why was Dekes killed?

@Steph

– A large catch-up post would be appropriate and soon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn’t get a PM from Jason. Looking at the opinions list I would expect Chesskid to chime in with confirmation whenever he appears.

This is clearly stupid on my part. Chesskid sacrificed himself Day 1.

Self face-palm.

MoI: Important question. Are you some kind of blocker role?

Umm, yeah, I’m not going to pre-emptively claim my role, if any, at this juncture.

Well shit, MOI was the one I sent it too.

No you didn’t. Or at least Reck didn’t send me anything. So either you got role-blocked, you sent it in too late, Reck screwed up, or you are fake-claiming.

@MOD – If I was to get a message of confirmation re Jason you didn’t sent it to me.

Why does end of day imply that I'm not bulletproof? Because I am, I promise you.

And no, I'm not going to tell you about my role.

Ok, so now you don’t want to talk about your role.

VOTE: Gandalf

Yesterday after your pre-emptive claim you basically said that you could be recruited by being acted up in some fashion that was not specified. Also you suggested that a Vig targeting you would die instead of you. Yet that’s not exactly what happened, was it. You were, of course, vague enough that about the negative consequences for Town that the result isn’t 100% contradicted by your statements.

Any reason to suggest you aren’t now a recruited Mafia?

[MagnaofIllusion]

> 4 8 15 16 23 42
EXECUTE

Preview edit - Jason you moron ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

dayvig pretty obviously shot Agar, trying to take any other scenario into account is LUDACRIS(he didn't bold it in thread so I doubt it counted + agar was fucking dayvigged), so it was probably a PM'd action. don't really see how you're not thinking that either. it also makes sense since enigma was suspicious of agar early day 1, and pretty much said nothing to change that IIRC. horribad vote

Way to jump to assumptions. How exactly do you know that it was probably a PMed action?

1. Chesskid posted his ‘Revive: AGar” in thread. Why in the hell would he bother to do that if he could just PM Reck?
2. Like a Revivor a Dayvig is almost universally posted in thread if it is a Town role.

So your assumptions are completely ‘Ludicrous’ yourself.

Gandalf's claims of negative consequences in conjunction with what Enigma actually posted in thread are worth investigating. Period.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd say EBWOP but it's really a continuation -

What reasoning can you provide for Enigma posting a Daykill of Gandalf in thread but PMing Reck a different target? He could just as easily have said "I just PMed Reck to prove my role ... AGar is getting shot" as opposed to the pointless way you are suggesting he went about it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

given my option two of saving someone from ALL standard night kills... I am not sure I fully believe the day vig. the way my PM was worded seemed like there could be more than one NK

You don't believe that Enigma, who flipped Day-vig, was a Day-vig?

Boggle ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Chesskid bolded his, afaik enigma didn't.
I don't think there's a standard for dayvig, it was in thread in my game but I did that as I thought it was different from the norm as I wanted to dayvig to be outed, I've no stats but I get the impression they're about equally as common, if not pm'd action being more common.

Yes I’m aware that one was bolded and one not. You’d have to argue as to whether Reck was a strict Mod regarding letter of the law on how he handled ability useage, and then argue whether it was even required to be bolded.

The only time on-site where I have seen a Non-Town Day-vig was the recently ended LOTR Mafia where a 3rd Party Day-vig existed. And this was the only time I’ve ever seen a Day-Vig not post in thread to execute their kill/(s) [for obvious reasons].

I’m leaning on my personal experiences in molding my thoughts re: Gandalf / AGar. Your experience obviously vary (as we saw with Vig versus No Vig regarding AGar and myself).

[MagnaofIllusion]

given my option two of saving someone from ALL standard night kills... I am not sure I fully believe the day vig. the way my PM was worded seemed like there could be more than one NK

Jason first thanks for getting your full information out in thread before you explode, assuming you aren’t just scum fucking with us.

Second I’m not sure I follow your logic. You are saying the language provided said you could protect someone from all standard Nightkills. I take this to mean that you couldn’t protect someone from a Daykill since that is not standard.

I know your experience may vary, but I'm wondering how likely you actually think it is for Gandalf to have been vigged. I probably should have let that play out a bit more but I wanted to get stuff said before day ended and reacted knee jerkish.

I absolutely do think he was vigged. Re-read his posts regarding his role from Day 1. He goes out of the way to talk about negative consequences for being targeted. It seems like a much better fit than Enigma playing some complex gambit (although given how poorly he played I will not rule that out).

And I concur with getting things out into thread. We likely have a limited time before Reck comes in here and explodifies Jason.

It is frustrating that players the Day 1 lurkers are basically getting a free pass and Steph will likely have no posts of significance today. Getting reads on non-entities is annoying.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Gandalf

= If you are a Third Party and not a Serial Killer now would be the time to claim. The fact that the game isn’t over and Call is making his horrible fake-guilty claim is the only reason I’m not drumming for your head.

I got a supercop abillity last night as a result of the hatch going KABOOM. I got a GUILTY on magna. Lynch him he's fuckin' scum.

Well you made my decisions easy. I know I’m Town so I know you are fake-claiming scum. You must really be worried about the third party if you are making this sort of gambit.

VOTE: Callandor

This is perhaps the worst fake-cop claim I have seen since Personal Agenda Mafia. Where I was trying to get lynched. Hopefully Town isn’t stupid enough to fall for it like they did there.

Are you honestly claiming that after we had a Cop already in the set-up that you ‘magically’ got ‘Super Cop’ powers when the hatch exploded? Really?

When I have more time I’ll go back and read over your Day 1 to see who your partner likely is.

Actually IDC, this is probably over, Vote Magna, he's scum. Gandalf is scum too. Who's the 3rd?

DERP the game is over even thought the Mod didn’t call it.

Btw if you targeted Agar last night and aren't scum you better fucking claim NOW. We can't afford anymore fuck ups.

Are you really expecting someone is STUPID enough to target and kill the MOD CONFIRMED COP and not be Scum?

This is just the first of a series of statement calculated to earn ‘Outraged Town Points”.

Let’s see more now –

Dram if you're town you should be voting Magna. Are you town?

Look on as Call attempt to strong arm a quicklynch to hopeful finish the game for he and his scum partner. Because scum would never assert they are Town

So fucking mad though, look at the town power that we had that's been WASTED.

Look at him. He must be Town because he CARES SO MUCH.

I'M NOT GONNA TELL YOU WHY THE GAME IS STILL GOING SCUM.

Can I guess? Is it because you still don't have a majority? Thought so.

+ a 3rd party SK who's kill didn't go through Night 1? Not impossible. Although less likely.

Actually I think VERY likely. Vezo can come in and reveal what he was fishing about for Day 2. I have a very fucking good idea why we only had 1 kill N1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna calling me scum in a 2 man scumgroup is absolutely NOTED.

Especially since this is the worst ploy for any 2 man scum group ever.

Well fake-claiming a guilty certainly made my job simple.

And it is a pretty bad ploy. Why did you do it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Gandalf

= If you are a Third Party and not a Serial Killer now would be the time to claim. The fact that the game isn’t over and Call is making his horrible fake-guilty claim is the only reason I’m not drumming for your head.

LMAO THIS IS MAGNA CONFIRMED FOR FUCKING SCUM. HE'S BASICALLY TELLING GANDALF TO GO FOR A SPLIT WIN. FUCKING HELL. OBVIOUS SCUM IS OBVIOUS. KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


I hope you're the godfather.

STOP USING RHETORIC!! [/sarcasm off]

I have to ask - why in the hell did you choose me to fake-claim a guilty on? You could have hit any number of other targets that wouldn't be able to fight back from your ploy as effectively as I am.

NOTE FOR THOSE INTERESTED - Call isn't bother to contest any of the points against him and is simply shouting 'LOOK SCUMZORS KEKEKEKE' in a weak Fate impersonation.

[MagnaofIllusion]

^^^ can't explain his town motivation (hint there's none) for making this post. Fucking sealed.

Funny. Really funny.

It's pretty obvious the motivation in trying to get information to Town regarding our situation.

Dekes wasn't lying about a 9-2-1 setup unless he's a complete Moron. Thus determining if Gandalf is the 3rd Party (and unlikely Serial Killer due to his role as Desmond) is important to addressing whether Town is in good shape by lynching your scummy ass and then PoEing your partner or whether lynching you results in a potential Kingmaker for Day 4 with a Serial Killer and your partner.

But let me ask -

EXPLAIN HOW YOUR GAMBIT INVOLVING 'MAGICAL SUPER DUPER COP POWERS' ISN'T COMPLETELY IMPLAUSIBLE IN A SET-UP WITH A MOD CONFIRMED COP?

You can't since you didn't answer when I asked in the first place - scum caught in the worlds's dumbest ploy ever. Congratulations Call.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Note the wording here. CALLING IT A FAKE CLAIM. A pro town player would keep an open mind.

Are you seriously this dumb? Are you saying that a Town player would keep an open mind when someone incorrectly claims they are Guilty with Super Cop powers that go through Godfathers and Millers and everything?

The only possible conclusion a Town player in my circumstances can conclude is the situation – You have to be Scum faking a claim hoping to end the game.

Nice fail argument. Continue to prove that you did a poor job in planning your ploy and it is backfiring horribly.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanksgiving has taken up all my time lately. I’ll have time to put a full post and response to Call’s and others comments tonight after 9pm EST.

But as they say in journalism you don’t bury the lead and something struck me right as I was drifting off to sleep last night.

I missed this the first time through when I responded but wanted to make sure everyone had it brought to their attention.

+ a 3rd party SK who's kill didn't go through Night 1? Not impossible. Although less likely.

How in the hell does Call / Faraday know for certain that it was the SK / other role (perhaps Vig?) that didn’t go through Night 1? With a second killing role why isn’t it possible the Mafia kill didn’t go through?

The answer is that Call / Faraday knows the Mafia kill went through N1 because HE’S SCUM. Scum slip right there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lol at Chess.
I love that your reads only work post mortem.
Great case of hindsight powers!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I guess it is kind of anticlimactic that I didn’t even bother to have to put my claiming / scumming up Faraday post together.

Nice work team-mates.

Unvote
Vote: MoI
You're at L-6. Claimtime, motherfucker.

This is the post in which you voted for me Chesskid. Stirring reasoning an accusation there. Your little rant about not self-nomming hardly was damning evidence since the Town Cop didn't either.

I re-looked at your ISO. I find it hilarious that you are trying to claim that you had me pegged when after you made this late day joke post you then posted back to back the following

1. MoI / TF are scum, Enigma is mislynch bait.
2. VOTE: Enigma

I think it’s hard to not put you very close to VI status for me. It’s a pretty exclusive club. I know your short lived reads in [REDACTED] were far from correct and depending on whether you are scum or Town in [REDACTED] will decide if you get the full VI treatment from me going forward.

Desmond turning evil was outrageous enough already.

Callling tea-party on this statement. In Season 1 you were Claire as straight Mafia. You can’t say anything about any sort of alignment flavor with a straight face.

I’m officially registering my Pre-IN for Season 3 now. Hopefully Reck gives the winners priority like he did after Season 1.

@Faraday

– From the moment you called your Super-Cop (which that was total bullshit, right? I read that as Town gambiting off reads and hoping to catch me in a slip-up) I was chuckling internally that you had targeted Mr. Eco

I really want to see the Night Action results.

I’ll patiently await Mod results

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dekes - I am 100% with you in regards to Desmond. He is probably my favorite character.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pre-in for Season 3 of. Of course.